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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions about Zaidi beliefs


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7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

you know it is just logically that the Imam is either the one who rises with the sword or calls to himself,

Just want to point out few more holes. First is your own quoted hadith:

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر

It says: Whoever calls by God to the path of his Lord and enjoins what is right and forbids what is wrong.

21 hours ago, Cool said:

أن كل عالم فاطمي يقوم بالسيف ويدعو لنفسه، فهو واجب الطاعة وهو إمام الزمان.

See the difference, call to himself & calls to sabilallah. 

So this is again proved wrong. Now about the knowledge & most knowledgeable ones. Here is a quote:

في حوار بين يحيى بن زيد ع ومتوكل بن هارون، يسأل الأخير يحيى : ( يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّه أَهُمْ ـــ جعفر وابيه ع ـــ أَعْلَمُ أَمْ أَنْتُمْ فَأَطْرَقَ إِلَى الأَرْضِ مَلِيّاً ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَه وقَالَ : كُلُّنَا لَه عِلْمٌ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ كُلَّ مَا نَعْلَمُ ، ولا نَعْلَمُ كُلَّ مَا يَعْلَمُونَ )

The interesting underline statement "They know all that we know, and we do not know all that they know."

Yahya a.r, speaks in the plural form, as he tells about himself and his father Zaid, so al-Baqir (عليه السلام) and al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), knew everything that Zaid and Yahya knew, but he increased them in degree and raised them when he said (and we do not know all that they know).

وفي حوار بين يحيى بن زيد ومتوكل بن هارون، قال يحيى له : ( فَهَلْ لَقِيتَ ابْنَ عَمِّي جَعْفَرَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدٍ – عَلَيْه السَّلَامُ قُلْتُ : نَعَمْ . قَالَ : فَهَلْ سَمِعْتَه يَذْكُرُ شَيْئاً مِنْ أَمْرِي قُلْتُ : نَعَمْ . قَالَ : بِمَ ذَكَرَنِي خَبِّرْنِي ، قُلْتُ : جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ أَسْتَقْبِلَكَ بِمَا سَمِعْتُه مِنْه . فَقَالَ : أَبِالْمَوْتِ تُخَوِّفُنِي ! هَاتِ مَا سَمِعْتَه ، فَقُلْتُ : سَمِعْتُه يَقُولُ : إِنَّكَ تُقْتَلُ وتُصْلَبُ كَمَا قُتِلَ أَبُوكَ وصُلِبَ فَتَغَيَّرَ وَجْهُه وقَالَ ( يَمْحُوا الله ما يَشاءُ ويُثْبِتُ وعِنْدَه أُمُّ الْكِتابِ ) ، يَا مُتَوَكِّلُ إِنَّ اللَّه عَزَّ وجَلَّ أَيَّدَ هَذَا الأَمْرَ بِنَا وجَعَلَ لَنَا الْعِلْمَ والسَّيْفَ فَجُمِعَا لَنَا وخُصَّ بَنُو عَمِّنَا بِالْعِلْمِ وَحْدَه . فَقُلْتُ : جُعِلْتُ فِدَاءَكَ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ النَّاسَ إِلَى ابْنِ عَمِّكَ جَعْفَرٍ – عَلَيْه السَّلَامُ – أَمْيَلَ مِنْهُمْ إِلَيْكَ وإِلَى أَبِيكَ فَقَالَ : إِنَّ عَمِّي مُحَمَّدَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ وابْنَه جَعْفَراً – عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَامُ – دَعَوَا النَّاسَ إِلَى الْحَيَاةِ ونَحْنُ دَعَوْنَاهُمْ إِلَى الْمَوْتِ…)

الصحيفة السجادية – الإمام زين العابدين ( ع ) ، ص 12 ـــ 14 ، حقائق المعرفة في علم الكلام، المتوكل على الله أحمد بن سلمان في ، باب حقيقة معرفة الإمام، ص 504 ـ 505

The first thing that stops a person is Yahya’s saying inquiringly: (So did you hear him – i.e. Ja’far al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) , mentioning something of my affair? He is ignorant of something that al-Sadiq knows, despite his being an imam and the proof of God in his land.

His saying this indicates Yahya’s belief in what Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), has of the knowledge of the future, so Ibn Harun asks if Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), mentioned him.  If Yahya was the heir to the knowledge of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and God’s proof on his land, how could he miss this knowledge and seek it from someone who is less important than him, according to the Zaydi theory?

Second thing is the bolded part, I can build a whole argument from this statement i.e. "calling people towards life & calling people towards death". I am just leaving it at the moment.

Lastly, The Imam knew what would happen, but he took it as an inheritance from his fathers, just as Imam Al-Baqir (عليه السلام), told Zaid what his fate would be if he left Medina, so also Imam Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), was informed of the fate of Yahya, and he was informed after that of the fate of Muhammad bin Abdullah the pure soul in the meeting of Banu Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein with the Abbasids  before their revolution. 

I think this is sufficient for the moment. As I am not willing to distract your thread which is specific for Q&A's.

Wassalam!!

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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There was someone who asked the exact same question that you did on this very page, and still you go on to shuffle the question and use it as an argument? 

I think I have elaborated my argument. And I am talking with historical references & references from the statements of your Imams.

Please mention where these details have been discussed earlier.

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

Just want to point out few more holes. First is your own quoted hadith:

It isn't from our works, it is from yours. The point I was making was that from your works Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام)) considers the three segments of 35:32 to be referring to the Ahlulbayt.

5 hours ago, Cool said:

The interesting underline statement "They know all that we know, and we do not know all that they know."

Yes, Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) was a great Imam of 'ilm

5 hours ago, Cool said:

If Yahya was the heir to the knowledge of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and God’s proof on his land, how could he miss this knowledge and seek it from someone who is less important than him, according to the Zaydi theory?

This is a misunderstanding, there are Imams of 'ilm and Imams of Jihad, as long as one has the necessary qualities of 'ilm (i.e ijitihad) they can rise, after being chosen via the Shuraa. 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Lastly, The Imam knew what would happen, but he took it as an inheritance from his fathers, just as Imam Al-Baqir (عليه السلام), told Zaid what his fate would be if he left Medina, so also Imam Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), was informed of the fate of Yahya, and he was informed after that of the fate of Muhammad bin Abdullah the pure soul in the meeting of Banu Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein with the Abbasids  before their revolution. 

Kitab Al-Jifr

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5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The point I was making was that from your works Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام)) considers the three segments of 35:32 to be referring to the Ahlulbayt.

They may be from Ahlul Bayt but everyone from Ahlul Bayt is not the Imam. And you too have made the distinction for who should be the Imam. For us it is quite clear and right now you are trapped in "knowledge" lol.

5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This is a misunderstanding, there are Imams of 'ilm and Imams of Jihad, as long as one has the necessary qualities of 'ilm (i.e ijitihad) 

Who among them is the hujjah of Allah upon His creation? Imam of ilm or Imam of Jihad?

And what is ijtihad according to zaidiyyah?

5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

they can rise, after being chosen via the Shuraa. 

Do you have any نص for this i.e., Imam of Ahlul Bayt to be choosen by shura?

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

@Ashvazdanghe, and @Muslim2010 can stop jumping around in between threads and derailing everything.

Just to remind you that SC is an open forum and it is not your choice to say some one for not replying or responding. If some one remains unable to reply logically to the arguemnts  then certainly it is not my mistake. 

:grin:

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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It may be an open forum, but you're not respecting the purpose of this thread. I said it before: this is only a Q&A thread, and you're not meant to debate here. Many other threads have been created for the purpose of debating, so take your questions there.

As much as I disagree with the beliefs and practices of our Zaidi brothers, I still don't say "hey you're wrong, how can you believe that", because, as I said before, this was made to ONLY ask questions and receive answers, doesn't matter how much the answers may seem wrong to you.

This thread has 4 pages and I believe more than half of it is just debating.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

It may be an open forum, but you're not respecting the purpose of this thread. I said it before: this is only a Q&A thread, and you're not meant to debate here. Many other threads have been created for the purpose of debating, so take your questions there.

Look brother i have already carried out discussion at the other threads, but i have just mentioned my view in this thread ONLY when my name has been quoted by Zaidism or when he has quoted me/us blind.

So i re-confirm that i am not here for debating in this thread and have mentioned my response in return just for clarity. This is a right to respond when some one asked for it in an open forum ie SC. Wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Sure why not, although I must tell you my knowledge in Qur'an and specially hadith is not that good, so it would be more less than a debate and more like a simple discussion.

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21 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Sure why not, although I must tell you my knowledge in Qur'an and specially hadith is not that good, so it would be more less than a debate and more like a simple discussion.

I don't have much knowledge so a discussion between two laymen on how they reach there fundamentals is very important and needed.

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On 7/11/2021 at 5:02 PM, Ultimate truth said:

History testifies that eventually Muhammad nafs al Zakiyah was  finally abandoned by his supporters. 

What are you implying by adding this bit of information?  Careful.  "History testifies that eventually [insert Imam Ali (e.g. Iraqis at Siffin, and later the Khawarij), Imam Hassan (by the Iraqis), and Imam Hussain (Iraqis e.g. Tawwabun)] was  finally abandoned by his supporters". 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2021 at 5:41 AM, Guest Ultimate truth said:

3. Your back tracking Brother Zaidism told in personal messages it ends with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in my humble position it never began because it's the same position the Sunni hold.

4. You still not saying which sect.

6  That really would be illogical because you hold the same position as the Sunni Immamat is fallible.

5. There is only one definition of infallibility please refer to the Oxford dictionary. 

1. Your brother Zaidism said Fallible Imamat ends with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

2.. Discussion ends there is no Divine Immamat in Zaydia it's exactly the same as the Sunni position people of the cloak are fallible. 

Let me break it down to stop confusion ,you have already told me as has brother Zaidism that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

I am asking you a very simple question can you prove Immamat designation for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Independent Sunni sources.

Without using any of the hadiths mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) .?

Can you also prove from Sunni sources that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH.?

I have & can provide sources from Sunni works mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) even upto to the point of their names. 

At this stage it is irrelevant whether you believe these hadith or not. 

Traditionally Zaydiya have been much closer to Sunni positions prime example being like the Sunni you don't hold people of the cloak as infallible. 

Your early history also points to the fact that like Sunni in the beginning your theological position was determinist.

Furthermore in your early history Zaydiya didn't believe the Quran to be created. 

Today Zaydiya is much closer to Mutazilite positions. Another very interesting part is the Batriya who held the khilafat of the Abu Bakr , Umar & Uthman legitimate merged with Jarudiya to form the foundation for your sect.

Jarud  Ziyad Mundhir was a notable companion of Zayd bin Ali (عليه السلام). he condemned the Majority of the companions for failing to uphold the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

He was one of the founding members of the Zaydiya sect yet your the positions today are not the same as one of your founding fathers . 

It's also Interesting to note Jarudiya were the dominant force at the inception of the Zaydiya sect. 

This is why you have had conflicting opnions regards the companions & the people of the cloak it's the Batriya effect that had influenced your sect at some point in your history. 

Which leaves you in a position of neither here nor there.  Traditionally you have been more closer to the Sunni sect than the Ithnasheri both in fiqh & history as the Batriya accepted the first three Khalifs as legitimate. 

So please find me some Sunni hadiths that justify your theory of fallible Immamat being limited to the people of the cloak.

If you can't then the discussion doesn't go much further than that .

Wasalam 

Sunnis do not accept the Imamah of Imam Ali or of Imam Hassan or Imam Hussain.  Therefore, it is illogical to look for a hadith that demonstrates the "end" or "stops" Imamah after Imam Hussain.  Logically, we have to prove:

1. Imam Ali's Imamah

2. Imam Hassan's and Imam Hussain's Imamah

Proof for Imam Ali:

A) From Allah in Quran 5:55.

B) From Prophet at Ghadir Khumm

C) From Prophet in Manzila

Proof for Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain

A) From Prophet: "الحسن و الحسين إمامان قاما أو قعدا"

Proof for Imamah continuing from Imams Hassan and Hussain

A) From Prophet in Thaqalayn

B) From Prophet in Safinah

Thaqalayn and Safinah are not explicit in the exact order of individuals to follow like the aforementioned proofs for Imams Ali, Hassan and Hussain hence the opening of the Imamate to the two lineages. 

Are these later Imams purified?

No because they were not in the Hadith of Kisa.  Only the five.

 

Edited by Al-Zaidi
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On 7/8/2021 at 5:09 PM, Ultimate truth said:

As I said it is historically correct the zaidism of today has evolved to what it is at different times in history their Ideological positions kept changing.

  Abu Hanifa studied under Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام). even Sunni don't dispute this . The fiqh of Zaidiya is very similar to the Qiyas practice of Abu Hanifa unless another evolution has taken place.

The original Zaydiya believed the Quran was not created they were also determinists in theology. It was effusion of Batriya a moderate strand & Jarudiya a extremist strand within the Shia  traditionalists of Kufa.

Eventually the Jarudiya were the dominant force the Jarudiya rejected the first 3 caliphs. 

They condemned the majority of the companions for failing to uphold the rights of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  The Batariya on the other hand accepted the first 3 caliphs as legitimate and didn't accept the Immmat of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام).

This is why this soft stance exists within Zaiiydayah towards the first three caliphs because another evolution took place later in their history. 

Then came the Talbiyah in the 10th century who extended the concept of Immah to the descendants of Abu Talib (عليه السلام). In contradiction of the early stance of Zaydiya that Immamat belongs in lineage of Hassani& Hussaini lineage. 

Their were also different variants of Zaydiya such as Nasriya & Salimiyah not sure if they still exist.

So as you can see Zaidis cannot provide any Independent hadiths neither from Ithnasheri or Sunni sources for designation of Immamat for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). Neither can they provide any hadith for the end to Divine Immamat at 61AH following Martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

The whole theology just kept evolving to what it is today. 

Wasalam 

Be careful. 

The Ithna Ashariyyah has its own skeletons, e.g. Ismail bin Ja'far, Abdullah al-Atraf, Waqifiyyah, Tawussiyyah,Bazighiyya, Muhammad ibn Ali al-Hadi, Ja'afar al-Kadhab, Nawbakhti family, etc.  Most damning of all, Kamal al-Haydari revealed  the infiltration of Yahudi, Masihi, and Majusi narrations into Twelver traditions and even into Tafsir al-Qummi!  

I would advise caution and self-reflection before drawing attention to such matters.  The Twelverism of today is quite different from the time of Yusuf al-Bahrani, and different from the time of Saduq and Tusi, and different from the time of Murtadha, and different from the time of pre-ghaybah.

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On 8/7/2021 at 2:00 PM, Al-Zaidi said:

Only the five.

Afterwards we have 35:32:

Then We granted the Book to those We have chosen from Our servants. Some of them wrong themselves, some follow a middle course, and some are foremost in good deeds by Allah’s Will. That is ˹truly˺ the greatest bounty.

Which designates the Ahlulbayt generally, as Imam Al-Baqir says regarding this verse, ''it has been revealed regarding us the Ahlulbayt'' 

And he goes on to maintain that all three levels refer to the Ahlulbayt, which does not coincide with the twelver conception of 12 Imams all being foremost in deeds, and only the 12 Imams being the Ahlulbayt.


يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين 


قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت

قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟
قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, said:
((The one who commands the good and forbids the evil, is from my offspring and he is
the caliph of Allah on earth; as well as, the caliph of His Book and the Caliph of the
Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny
)).

Al-Hādi, upon him be peace, narrated this in Al-Ahkām, in the chapter entitled
The Virtues of a Just Imam.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Afterwards we have 35:32:

Then We granted the Book to those We have chosen from Our servants. Some of them wrong themselves, some follow a middle course, and some are foremost in good deeds by Allah’s Will. That is ˹truly˺ the greatest bounty

H 562, Ch. 24, h 1
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Hammad ibn 'Isa from 'Abd al-Mu’min from Salim who has said that he asked abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) about the meaning of the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High.

"We gave the Book as an inheritance to Our chosen servants, among whom some are unjust against their souls, some are moderate, and some are exceedingly virtuous by the permission of God. . . ." (35:32) The exceedingly virtuous is the Imam ((عليه السلام).), the moderate ones are those who know the Imams ((عليه السلام).) and the unjust ones are those who do not know the Imams ((عليه السلام).)."

H 604, Ch. 33, h 7
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn abu Zahir or another man from Muhammad ibn Hammad from his brother Ahmad ibn Hammad from Ibrahim from his father who has said the following. "I said to abu al-Hassan al-Thani ((عليه السلام).), ""May Allah take my soul
in service for your cause, "Would you tell me about the Prophet who inherited all the prophets.".........."Allah has set them for us in the origin of the book as Allah says, "All the secrets in heavens and earth are recorded in the illustrious Book. (27:75) Then Allah has said, "We gave the Book as an inheritance to Our chosen servants,. . ." (35:32) We are the ones whom Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has chosen and has given this which contain the explanation of all things."

(Alkafi Vol 1)

I have shared just for clarification of our view please. Wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 6/19/2021 at 12:54 AM, Zaidism said:

1. Angels

2. Messengers

3. Prophets

4. Imams 

It is important to note that this idea of ranking these righteous servants of Allah is not something which would be of fruitful benefit, as they all carried one message:.

Salaam,

Are you saying Zaidis hold Gabriel at a higher rank than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

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17 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam,

Are you saying Zaidis hold Gabriel at a higher rank than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

WS, 

Yes.

Angels are created from pure light, humans are fashioned from clay and have an animalistic nature. The logic used to try and argue that humans can be better than angels, because they have both natures and can choose either intellect, or lust is very faulty. It is a simple comparison between that which is intrinsic to the creation like the differences between copper, silver, and gold. 

The Qur'an is quite clear on the superiority of angels as well. 

O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed] angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded. {66:6}

Say, [O Muḥammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?" {6:50}

But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." {7:20}

 

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Angels are created from pure light, humans are fashioned from clay and have an animalistic nature.

I am going to ignore this statement because this is the arguement Iblis used that he was made from fire and hence superior to man.

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The logic used to try and argue that humans can be better than angels, because they have both natures and can choose either intellect, or lust is very faulty. It is a simple comparison between that which is intrinsic to the creation like the differences between copper, silver, and gold. 

While simple, what is wrong with such comparison?

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed] angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded. {66:6}

Say, [O Muḥammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?" {6:50}

But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." {7:20}

 

The Quran is also very clear that ALL angels were commanded to prostrate to Hz Adam (عليه السلام). Neither Hz. Adam (عليه السلام) nor any prophet after him was told to prostrate or bow to any angel. Isn't this sufficient proof of the superiority of Adam (caliph fil-ardh)? Then obviously all other Prophets as well.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I am going to ignore this statement because this is the arguement Iblis used that he was made from fire and hence superior to man.

The issue here was arrogance, not Qiyas.

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The Quran is also very clear that ALL angels were commanded to prostrate to Hz Adam (عليه السلام). Neither Hz. Adam (عليه السلام) nor any prophet after him was told to prostrate or bow to any angel. Isn't this sufficient proof of the superiority of Adam (caliph fil-ardh)? Then obviously all other Prophets as well.

Prophets made mistakes in the Quran, Angels are completely infallible. 

I don’t see the point of this discussion Akhi, as you know these are matters which have no impact on a persons creed. In the end your reasoning is due to your epistemological framework which differs from mine. Therefore, you won’t reach my conclusion, because it goes against what your epistemology says in terms of the Imams and the Prophet. 

Even if we believed what you did regarding this matter, it fundamentally changes nothing. Of course one is free to ask what they please, but to  challenge it is strange to me, as if it changes anything, or proves a point. 

Edited by Zaidism
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On 8/16/2021 at 1:04 AM, Zaidism said:

The issue here was arrogance, not Qiyas.

His arrogance was based on him being made of fire so I will still hold that the make up of angels and humans has no bearing on status.

On 8/16/2021 at 1:04 AM, Zaidism said:

Prophets made mistakes in the Quran, Angels are completely infallible. 

I don’t see the point of this discussion Akhi, as you know these are matters which have no impact on a persons creed. In the end your reasoning is due to your epistemological framework which differs from mine. Therefore, you won’t reach my conclusion, because it goes against what your epistemology says in terms of the Imams and the Prophet. 

Even if we believed what you did regarding this matter, it fundamentally changes nothing. Of course one is free to ask what they please, but to  challenge it is strange to me, as if it changes anything, or proves a point. 

I disagree with this entire paragraph for several reasons brother.

1) Do you equate infallibility with no sinning or not making mistakes or both?

2) This is important because in a question about Imams and Prophets, you made it a point to highlight the angels superiority over all messengers and prophets.

3) This is a fundamental difference in our core belief system (usul-e-deen) where we believe in Tawheed, Adl, Prophethood, Imamate which including the infallibility of the prophets and imams (I left out Qiyamah since it does not pertain to my point).

With you ranking angels higher than both of them because of their superiority due to infallibility, wouldn't this be the CORE issue to discuss rather than dismiss?

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

His arrogance was based on him being made of fire so I will still hold that the make up of angels and humans has no bearing on status.

Angels cannot sin, while the jinn can. Therefore, they’re not intrinsically superior. 

(a) - Angels, absolutely infallible. 

(b) - Humans and Jinns can make mistakes.

(c) - Animals do not have a moral compass, save their innate carnal nature. 

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4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Angels cannot sin, while the jinn can. Therefore, they’re not intrinsically superior. 

(a) - Angels, absolutely infallible. 

(b) - Humans and Jinns can make mistakes.

(c) - Animals do not have a moral compass, save their innate carnal nature. 

My point still stands and rejects your argument that angels are superior because they are made of noor.

So the only issue remaining is angels' superiority due to their infallibility.

Back to my other question - is infallibility not sinning or not making mistakes or both?

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On 8/16/2021 at 5:48 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Back to my other question - is infallibility not sinning or not making mistakes or both?

Angels have complete obedience. No errors or sins or misjudgments etc

Humans have complete free wiil. And as a result can sin.

Prophets and any others specified are protected from sin.

Infallibility is an English word that has been used in a variety of ways in translations of theology books.

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Angels have complete obedience. No errors or sins or misjudgments etc

Humans have complete free wiil. And as a result can sin.

Prophets and any others specified are protected from sin.

Infallibility is an English word that has been used in a variety of ways in translations of theology books.

 

 

Salam.

Still trying to understand the "Zaidi" interpretation of infallibility brother.

I am not looking for the translation.

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On 8/16/2021 at 9:38 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

I am not looking for the translation.

Unfortunately you have to look for a translation. Because it can be used to describe different concepts in Islam..

Eg in English Heaven can mean both Space and paradise 

But in Quranic context Heaven is levels of space and Jannah is paradise.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salam.

Still trying to understand the "Zaidi" interpretation of infallibility brother.

 

It's being free from Sin but not error. 

When referring to Prophets and the 5 of the cloak.

Read sublime answers by Qassim Al Rassi for a more detailed answer 

Hope that helps.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2021 at 3:20 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

 

The Quran is also very clear that ALL angels were commanded to prostrate to Hz Adam (عليه السلام). Neither Hz. Adam (عليه السلام) nor any prophet after him was told to prostrate or bow to any angel. Isn't this sufficient proof of the superiority of Adam (caliph fil-ardh)? Then obviously all other Prophets as well.

This is a fair point and I don't think there is any real problem in saying Prophets are superior to angels. It all depends on context I guess.

As for the prostration Allah explains this in Qur'an. It's because Adam was superior in knowledge.

But Humans are not superior in obedience to angels as described in Qur'an.

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Asalamualaikum brother, I read the beneficial summary and the tasbih for ruku and sujud mentioned there is slightly different to what the general Sunni sects and Shia say in their prayers. Do you have any reference for this ?

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8 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Unfortunately you have to look for a translation. Because it can be used to describe different concepts in Islam..

Eg in English Heaven can mean both Space and paradise 

But in Quranic context Heaven is levels of space and Jannah is paradise.

 

Right exactly. Translation is subject to the limitations of the language but an interpretation is more descriptive.

8 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

It's being free from Sin but not error. 

When referring to Prophets and the 5 of the cloak.

Read sublime answers by Qassim Al Rassi for a more detailed answer 

Hope that helps.

okay so if the interpretation of infallibility is "free from sin" and we acknowledge that at least the 5 are free from sin, then they are at par with angels if not better. My initial question to br @Zaidism was whether the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was superior to angels and he said no.

The argument to show the superiority of the 5 over angels is that the angels are incapable of sinning whereas the 5 were capable but did not. It is a much higher level of obedience therefore they are superior.

7 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

This is a fair point and I don't think there is any real problem in saying Prophets are superior to angels. It all depends on context I guess.

As for the prostration Allah explains this in Qur'an. It's because Adam was superior in knowledge.

But Humans are not superior in obedience to angels as described in Qur'an.

Fair enough. I just saw it is as very odd that any branch of Islam would put angels higher than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in any category.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

 

okay so if the interpretation of infallibility is "free from sin" and we acknowledge that at least the 5 are free from sin, then they are at par with angels if not better. 

Why ?

Don't limit it to just sin

 Angels are free from on all error. 

So they are superior in that sense.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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27 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Fair enough. I just saw it is as very odd that any branch of Islam would put angels higher than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in any category.

Depends on the way you look at it 

Is obedience or knowledge greater. Both can make an argument and then pick the equivalent creation.

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58 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Why ?

Don't limit it to just sin

 Angels are free from on all error. 

So they are superior in that sense.

I was going by your definition of infallibility. So infallibility is "free from sin and errors". Agreed?

57 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Depends on the way you look at it 

Is obedience or knowledge greater. Both can make an argument and then pick the equivalent creation.

Well, I would say the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is greater than angels in both aspects - obedience and knowledge.

Angels are unable to disobey Allah so what is superior about their obedience?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I was going by your definition of infallibility. So infallibility is "free from sin and errors". Agreed?

 

No not agreed. When Infallibility is used for Prophets it refers to free from sin. When used for angels it is used for free from all error.

Same English word describing two different description from Qur'an 

I guess it would be easier to seperate it into

Complete and partial infallibility ?

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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@Ali bin Hussein I don't see the point of entertaining this discussion, he didn't respect the fact that this is a questions about Zaydi beliefs thread, not a debate Zaydi beliefs thread. If he was considerate enough to start another thread with this topic I would entertain said dialogue. 

He doesn't seem to understand that our entire epistemology differs, hence him being hell bent on winning a point that really makes no difference in terms of his fundamental beliefs which he can't reconcile. 

On 8/16/2021 at 12:21 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

including the infallibility of the prophets and imams

He goes on to say it refers to Usool Al-deen, but makes the blunder of assuming that infallibility is part of his Usool Al-deen when it comes to imamate. 

On 8/17/2021 at 9:42 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

The argument to show the superiority of the 5 over angels is that the angels are incapable of sinning whereas the 5 were capable but did not. It is a much higher level of obedience therefore they are superior.

This argument which is similar to what Ibn Taymiyyah states about having the ability to sin, or not. It is drawn out with complete sophistry. 

Angels are superior, because they are inherently perfect, that which is inherently perfect and good when compared to that which can strive to be good while also being subject to errancy is clearly sub-par. 

For one has an element which can cause it to be deficient while the other does not even posses it, it is clear that the one without such detracting elements is far more superior. Otherwise, we can argue for animals that go against their animalistic nature to be more superior than humans, no? 

Say, [O Muḥammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?" {6:50}

they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded. {66:6}

The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant of God, nor would the angels who are close to Him. He will gather before Him all those who disdain His worship and are arrogant: {4:172}

As one can see, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is saying that not only 'Isa ((عليه السلام)) is not arrogant to be the servant of Allah, but even those who are greater than him, the Angels. Otherwise, why would Allah mention them after?

As for the Angels that were prostrating to Adam, it was a test for them in the same manner that it was a test for Iblees, the Angels passed and he failed. His Qiyas was correct, but the issue was his arrogance. If the Angels did not have a choice why would Allah order them? It would instead be an act of creation, no? That is why when Allah addresses smoke and creation He gave the opportunity of obedience to them, but in the end Thy will be done. 

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." {41:11}

That which is ordered, and has a will is therefore accountable and rewarded by Allah. Otherwise, where is the wisdom in testing a creation that does not have free will?

If you want to say that it wasn't a test you have went against what Imam 'Ali says in sermon 192

Then He put His angels on trial concerning these attributes in order to distinguish those who are modest from those who are vain. Therefore, Allah, who is aware of whatever is hidden in the hearts and whatever lies behind the unseen said:

. . . "Verily I am about to create man from clay," And when I have completed and have breathed into him of My spirit, then fall ye prostrating in obeisance unto him. And did fall prostrating in obeisance the angels all together, Save lblis;... (Qur'an. 38:71-74)

If Allah had wanted to create Adam from a light whose glare would have dazzled the eyes, whose handsomeness would have amazed the wits and whose fragrance would have caught the breath, He could have done so; and if He had done so, people would have bowed to him in humility and the trial of the angels through him would have become easier. But Allah, the Glorified, tries His creatures by means of those things whose real nature they do not know in order to distinguish (good and bad) for them through the trial, and to remove vanity from them and keep them and keep them aloof from pride and self-admiration.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-192-praise-be-allah-who-wears-apparel-honour-and-dignity#allahs-trial-his-creatures

(Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes. {8:12}

Why are the Angels receiving revelation, why is Allah telling them to remain firm?

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, {2:161}

Again, as we saw with Nabi 'Isa we see this hierarchy where Allah mentions Himself, then the Angels, then the people.

We also see this hierarchy here;

If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants. {66:4}

As for the angels coming afterwards in ''and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.''

This is a second clause, after Allah has established the protectors to be Him, Gabriel, and Imam 'Ali.

For the first hierarchy is mentioned with protectors, the second is mentioning assistants. This is not to say that there always needs to be a mention of hierarchy, but if there is a particular clause with more than one sharing in the support, Allah will mention a hierarchy - Insha'Allah that is clear. 

We also see that in the Qur'an all Angels have the ability to give intercession - an earned quality - wherein we see only those who have died for the sake of Allah, and reached the loftiest of stages can give intercession. 

I remind the reader(s) that we the Zaidiyyah formulate our belief on that which is logically, Quranic, and consistent with the Ahl al-Bayt, whatever belief we have it will always be backed by logic, unlike many of the twelver beliefs which have their basis only in textual transmission. Hence the esoteric readings of the Quran, or the sophistry that seeks to twist the word of Allah to fit their narrative.

Imam 'Ali and the Angels:

{Sermon 1}

Then He created the openings between high skies and filled them with all classes of His angels. Some of them are in prostration and do not kneel up. Others in kneeling position and do not stand up. Some of them are in array and do not leave their position. Others are extolling Allah and do not get tired. The sleep of the eye or the slip of wit, or languor of the body or the effect of forgetfulness does not effect them.

Among them are those who work as trusted bearers of His message, those who serve as speaking tongues for His prophets and those who carry to and fro His orders and injunctions. Among them are the protectors of His creatures and guards of the doors of the gardens of Paradise.

Among them are those also whose steps are fixed on earth but their necks are protruding into the skies, their limbs are getting out on all sides, their shoulders are in accord with the columns of the Divine Throne, their eyes are downcast before it, they have spread down their wings under it and they have rendered between themselves and all else curtains of honour and screens of power.

They do not think of their Creator through image, do not impute to Him attributes of the created, do not confine Him within abodes and do not point at Him through illustrations.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described#creation-angels

{Sermon 91}

"But they are rather honored creatures who do not take precedence over Him in uttering anything, and they act according to His command." (Qur'an, 21: 26-27).

He has made them the trustees of His revelation and sent them to Prophets as holders of His injunctions and prohibitions. He has immunized them against the waviness of doubts. Consequently no one among them goes astray from the path of His will. He has helped them with the benefits of succour and has covered their hearts with humility and peace. He has opened for them doors of submission to His Glories. He has fixed for them bright minarets as signs of His Oneness.

  • He has immunized them against the waviness of doubts.

Recall: {So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.} (Quran 10:94)

The weights of sins do not burden them and the rotation of nights and days does not make them move. Doubts do not attack with arrows the firmness of their faith. Misgivings do not assault the bases of their beliefs. The spark of malice does not ignite among them. Amazement does not tarnish what knowledge of Him their hearts possess, or His greatness and awe of His glory that resides in their bosoms. Evil thoughts do not lean towards them to affect their imagination with their own rust.

They do not consider their past (virtuous) deeds to be great, for if they had considered them great then (excessive) hope would have wiped away fearfulness from their hearts. They did not differ (among themselves) about their Sustainer as a result of Satan's control over them. The vice of separation from one another did not disperse them. Rancour and mutual malice did not overpower them. Ways of wavering did not divide them. Differences of degree of courage did not render them into divisions.

Thus they are captives of faith; neither crookedness (of mind), nor excess, nor lethargy nor languor loosens them from its bond. There is not the thinnest point in the skies but there is an angel over it in prostration (before Allah) or (busy) in quick performance (of His commands). By long worship of their Sustainer they increase their knowledge, and the honour of their Sustainer increases in their hearts

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-91-praise-belongs-god-who

{Sermon 109}

Thou (O Allah) made angels reside in Thy skies and place them high above from Thy earth. They have the most knowledge about Thee and Thy whole creation, the most fearing from Thee, and the nearest to Thee. They never stayed in loins nor were retained in wombs. They were not created "from mean water (semen)" (Qur'an 32:8; 77:20). They were not dispersed by “vicissitudes of time” (52:30).

They are on their places (distinct) from Thee and in their positions near Thee. Their desires are concentrated in Thee. Their worship for Thee is much. Their neglect from Thy command is little. If they witness what remains hidden about Thee they would regard their deeds as very little, they would criticise themselves and would realise that they did not worship Thee according to Thy right for being worshipped and did not obey Thee as Thou hast the right of being obeyed.

Imam Sajjad and the Angels:

O God,
as for the Bearers of Thy Throne, 
who never flag in glorifying Thee,
never become weary of calling Thee holy,
never tire of worshipping Thee,
never prefer curtailment over diligence in Thy command,
and are never heedless of passionate love for Thee;

Seraphiel,
the Owner of the Trumpet,
fixed in his gaze,
awaiting Thy permission
and the descent of the Command,
that he may arouse through the Blast
the hostages thrown down in the graves;

Michael,
possessor of standing with Thee
and a raised up place in Thy obedience;

Gabriel,
entrusted with Thy revelation,
obeyed by the inhabitants of Thy heavens,
distinguished in Thy Presence,
brought nigh to Thee;
the spirit who is over the angels of the veils;
and the spirit
who is of Thy command
bless them and the angels below them:
the residents in Thy heavens,
those entrusted with Thy messages,
those who become not wearied by perseverance,
or exhausted and flagged by toil,
whom passions distract not from glorifying Thee,
and whose magnification of Thee is never cut off
by the inattention of heedless moments;
their eyes lowered,
they do not attempt to look at Thee;
their chins bowed,
they have long desired what is with Thee;
unrestrained in mentioning Thy boons,
they remain humble before Thy mightiness
and the majesty of Thy magnificence;
those who say when they look upon Gehenna
roaring over the people who disobeyed Thee:
'Glory be to Thee,
we have not worshipped Thee
with the worship Thou deservest!'

Bless them,
and Thy angels who are the Reposeful,
those of proximity to Thee,
those who carry the unseen to Thy messengers,
those entrusted with Thy revelation,
the tribes of angels
whom Thou hast singled out for Thyself,
freed from need for food and drink by their calling Thee holy,
and made to dwell inside Thy heavens' layers,
those who will stand upon the heavens' border
when the Command descends to complete Thy promise,
the keepers of the rain,
the drivers of the clouds,
him at whose driving's sound is heard the rolling of thunder,
and when the reverberating clouds swim before his driving,
bolts of lightning flash;
the escorts of snow and hail,
the descenders with the drops of rain when they fall,
the watchers over the treasuries of the winds,
those charged with the mountains lest they disappear,
those whom Thou hast taught the weights of the waters
and the measures contained by torrents and masses of rain;
the angels who are Thy messengers to the people of the earth
with the disliked affliction that comes down
and the beloved ease;
the devoted, noble scribes,
the watchers, noble writers,
the angel of death and his helpers,
Munkar and Nakir,
Rumaan, the tester in the graves,
the circlers of the Inhabited House,
Malik and the guardians,
Ridwan and the gatekeepers of the gardens,
those who disobey not God in What He commands them
and do What they are commanded;
those who say, Peace be upon you, for that you were patient
and fair is the Ultimate Abode;
the Zabaniya, who, when it is said to them,
take him, and fetter him,
then roast him in hell,
hasten to accomplish it,
nor do they give him any respite;
him whom we have failed to mention,
not knowing his place with Thee,
nor with which command Thou hast charged him;
and the residents in the air, the earth, and the water,
and those of them charged over the creatures;
bless them on the day when every soul will come,
with it a driver and a witness,
and bless them with a blessing that will add
honour to their honour
and purity to their purity.

O God,
and when Thou blessest Thy angels and Thy messengers
and Thou extendest our blessings to them,
bless us through the good words about them
which Thou hast opened up for us!
Thou art Munificent, Generous.

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On 8/17/2021 at 11:13 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

No not agreed. When Infallibility is used for Prophets it refers to free from sin. When used for angels it is used for free from all error.

Same English word describing two different description from Qur'an 

I guess it would be easier to seperate it into

Complete and partial infallibility ?

I am still struggling.

Angels = free from all sins and all errors

The 5 = free from all sins but error-prone

Other Prophets and Imams = not sons free and not error free.

Do I have it right now?

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