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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions about Zaidi beliefs


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@Zaidismthanks a lot for the thoroughgoing explanation 

16 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The Zaydiyyah maintain that for every era there needs to be a Mahdi who fills his era with justice.

Is this a hypothetical? As in there ought to be a Mahdi present in every era? Because in practice the guidance of a Mahdi or multiple Mahdis in different eras (as per the Zaidi understanding) has been largely absent. 

19 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Quick note, I would like to mention that Al-Majlisi in his Kitab Al-Ghaybah shares an authentic narration which states the Mahdi will emerge from Yemen, from a village called ''كرعة''  

Very nice thank you 

However

21 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The Mahdi is a promise from Allah to his Prophet (Peace be upon him and his progeny) a promise that Allah will make from his progeny a Mahdi (savior), he was not named (identified in particular) nor mentioned from which time and place he will emerge.

Doesn’t this^

22 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

His birthplace and where he will appear: He will be born in the end times, Allah will make him evident and will support him against His enemies, and he is one of the signs of the day of reckoning, he will first appear in Yemen, and it also has been said in Mecca. 

contradict this?^

One more thing (sorry to bombard you with questions) but it was mentioned by brother @Ali bin Husseinthat the reappearance of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) is contentious or at least questionable in Zaidi scholarly circles. Do you have any information on this? 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, User 313 said:
40 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

 

Is this a hypothetical? As in there ought to be a Mahdi present in every era? Because in practice the guidance of a Mahdi or multiple Mahdis in different eras (as per the Zaidi understanding) has been largely absent. 

Sorry I just wanted to clarify, when the concept of justice is mentioned with respect to the Mahdi (عليه السلام) (or, like I said, Mahdis according to Zaidis), is it universal? As in does the justice of this guide stretch across all parts of the world or is it confined to one geographical location? The reason why I’m asking this is because I would argue that it is only the Mahdi (عليه السلام), the one chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), who is able to establish absolute justice without it being confined to one place. 

Edited by User 313
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50 minutes ago, User 313 said:

in practice the guidance of a Mahdi or multiple Mahdis in different eras (as per the Zaidi understanding) has been largely absent. 

Could you elaborate on how you reached that conclusion, as I disagree, but would like to see your line of reasoning. 

51 minutes ago, User 313 said:

contradict this?^

It’s like saying: Nobody knows the time in which the Mahdi will appear, and going on to say he will appear in the end times. 

The traditions mention him emerging from Yemen, however, they aren’t definitive statements; in the same manner that saying he will appear in the end times is not a definitive statement in which particular time. 

54 minutes ago, User 313 said:

One more thing (sorry to bombard you with questions)

No problem, I appreciate you asking genuine questions as this was the aim of this thread to answer questions and negate misconceptions :) 

55 minutes ago, User 313 said:

reappearance of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) is contentious or at least questionable in Zaidi scholarly circles

It’s a nuanced matter debated in Zaydi, as well as Sunni circles. The most famous opinion and that which is taken by most scholars (based on what I have looked into hitherto) is that he will descend. Irrespective, the Mahdi will be known when he appears as he will be supported by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). With or without Nabi ‘isa ((عليه السلام)).

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47 minutes ago, User 313 said:

Sorry I just wanted to clarify, when the concept of justice is mentioned with respect to the Mahdi (عليه السلام) (or, like I said, Mahdis according to Zaidis), is it universal? As in does the justice of this guide stretch across all parts of the world or is it confined to one geographical location? The reason why I’m asking this is because I would argue that it is only the Mahdi (عليه السلام), the one chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), who is able to establish absolute justice without it being confined to one place. 

You’re superimposing the concept of the Mahdi in twelverism on Zaidism, respectively. The Mahdi is someone who seeks to establish justice, and each Zaydi Imam should be a Mahdi in that regard. However, there is only one promised Mahdi in the end times, and no Zaydi Imam has claimed, or will ever claim to be that Mahdi. 

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3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Could you elaborate on how you reached that conclusion, as I disagree, but would like to see your line of reasoning. 

4 hours ago, User 313 said:

That’s why I asked if justice is absolute and universal because if it is then to date there has obviously been no Mahdi to ensure it is securely established. From your responses I have come to understand (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that Zaidi Imams through their remarkable exploits have established some justice in their respective eras and locations (an example being Imam Khomeini (r)), hence becoming ‘Mahdis’ in this sense. If my understanding is correct then I take back my assertion that the guidance of leaders is non-existent as it is unfounded and incongruent with the Zaidi understanding of justice. 

3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

the Mahdi will be known when he appears as he will be supported by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). With or without Nabi ‘isa ((عليه السلام)).

How will he (initially) be known though? By calling to himself and subsequently revolting? 

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2 hours ago, User 313 said:

That’s why I asked if justice is absolute and universal because if it is then to date there has obviously been no Mahdi to ensure it is securely established.

We don’t call our Imams Mahdis, they should all serve as Mahdis i.e guides, we don’t use that terminology. 

2 hours ago, User 313 said:

From your responses I have come to understand (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that Zaidi Imams through their remarkable exploits have established some justice in their respective eras and locations

Yes, establishing a government that is dictated by Shariah is establishing justice.

2 hours ago, User 313 said:

hence becoming ‘Mahdis’ in this sense. 

Imams, guide, etc. The point isn’t being a Mahdi, nobody has or will strive to be a “Mahdi” the point is having active guides who will rise against tyranny, and will spread the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). 

We see in the rulership of Umar b. Abdul ‘Aziz the pure progeny did not revolt because he was a just Caliph. Therefore, it’s not rushing against every single country, leader, etc. For the sake of establishing Fatimid rule, it is to ensure the Shariah of Allah is implemented, blood isn’t spilled, corruption isn’t continuously spreading, and Islam isn’t tarnished. 

Now compare that to sitting in a corner waiting for a savior and while you do that, you simultaneously curse those who rise before the coming of the savior - who is only known through dogmatic traditions. Those who spoke against the revolts of the Ahlulbayt undoubtedly partake with the corrupt tyrants in spilling their blood.

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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Walaykom Al-Salam thank you for your question, I will share an excerpt which I translated from Al-Kadhim Al-Zaydi's book, Al Mahdawiyyah 

When asked about his brother Al Nafs Az-Zakiyyah and whether he is the Mahdi, so this certainly ties to your question, as there were people who were circulating such rumors, Imam Ibrahim b. Abdullah b. Hassan b. Hassan b. Ali عليهم السلام states:

The Mahdi is a promise from Allah to his Prophet (Peace be upon him and his progeny) a promise that Allah will make from his progeny a Mahdi (savior), he was not named (identified in particular) nor mentioned from which time and place he will emerge. My brother has rose to his obligation of enjoining good and forbidding evil, and if Allah wills to make him the promised Mahdi, then that is the blessing and favor of Allah whom He places in whom He wills from his servants, and if not, my brother did not leave his obligation to wait for a promise that he was not obliged to wait for. 
    

The excerpt indicates that the matter which relates to the Mahdi is a blessing from Allah giving to those who will be left joyous by its coming, however, it is not the only hope that is tied to the circumstances of change. Therefore, his coming in the Zaydi understanding, does not exceed the fact that it is a blessing from Allah which is placed and given to a particular people. Unlike opposing sects which have made the Mahdi the only hope, and means to reconcile the affairs of the Muslims. Truth can be restored, and justice can be established with the absence of the Mahdi; The Zaydiyyah maintain that for every era there needs to be a Mahdi who fills his era with justice.

 - Al Zaydiyyah Qira’ah fil Mashroo’ wa baheth fil mokawinat - pg. 123-14

 

Imam Al-Mahdi in the eyes of the Sadat of Ahlulbayt (Al-Zaidiyyah) 

His name: Muhammad b.Abdullah, from the sons of Fatema Al-Zahra, from the progeny of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein.

It has been narrated from Imam Abdullah b. Hamza; when the traditions conflicted in his regard, of him being from the sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein:

‘‘And many of the Imams have touched on this matter, mentioning that the Mahdi is from the sons of Fatema, and they did not specify beyond that, if he is from the particular sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein, because each of those lineages are the prerequisites for Imamate, and the means to authority, and leadership.’’ 

The great Imam, Zayd b. Ali was asked about this matter as well; Abu Khaled stated: We asked Zayd b. Ali regarding the Mahdi, is he a being (like us)? He said: Yes, so, it was said to him: Is he from the sons of Al-Hassan, or the sons of Al-Hussein? Zayd said: He is from the sons of Fatema - Peace be upon her - and he is from the posterity of whom Allah wills him to be, from either the sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein - Peace be upon them.

His birthplace and where he will appear: He will be born in the end times, Allah will make him evident and will support him against His enemies, and he is one of the signs of the day of reckoning, he will first appear in Yemen, and it also has been said in Mecca. 

       - Quick note, I would like to mention that Al-Majlisi in his Kitab Al-Ghaybah shares an authentic narration which states the Mahdi will emerge from Yemen, from a village called ''كرعة''  

The duration of his rulership: He will live after he gains dominion over the earth for seven years, it has also been said: eight, and: twenty.

    Sources: 

 Narrated by Ali b. Al-Hussein Al-Zaydi with his chain from the book Al-Muheet Bil’Imamah, and from him Imam Abdullah b. Hamza transmitted the narration in his book Al’Aqd Al-thameen: Pg. 196

Al’Aqd Al-thameen: Pg. 218
 

The (Zaydi) Narrations of the Ahlulbayt about the Mahdi: {There are a lot more, I still need to translate them}

- What has been narrated from the Prophet (S) 

1.  Narrated from Abi Raf’i the servant of the Prophet (S), He said: The Prophet (S) entered upon a group of his family and began to weep, and he was asked by some: What has made you weep, O’Messenger of Allah? The Prophet said: (It is for the Ahlulbayt, Allah has chosen for us the afterlife ahead of this life, my kindred will find animosity from the people, and will be forced to migrate over the nations, and Allah will reconcile their affairs with a man from us.).

2. Narrated from Anas, he said: The messenger of Allah (S) said: (We are seven from the sons of Abdul Muttalib who are the patriarchs of paradise: I, my brother Ali, my uncle Hamza, Jaf’ar, Al-Hassan, Al-Hussein, and the Mahdi.)

3. Narrated from Fatema: The Messenger of Allah (S) said: The Mahdi is from your sons. 

4. Narrated from Abdullah son of Mas’ud, the Prophet (S) said: (The world will not go (end) until the Arabs gain a man from my progeny, his name will be to the similitude of mine, and his fathers name will be the same my fathers name, he will fill the world with justice and peace, after it has been filled with injustice and misery) 

5. Narrated from Umm Salamah: I said: O’Messenger of Allah, from who is the Mahdi? He said: (From the sons of Hashim) I said: from which of the sons of Hashim? He said: From the sons of Abdul Muttalib, I said: From which of the sons of Abdul Muttalib? He said: From the sons of Fatema.

6. Narrated from Ibn Abbas: He said: The Messenger of Allah (S) said: The first seven to enter paradise: I, Hamza, Ja’far, Ali, Hassan, Hussein, and the Mahdi Muhammad son of Abdullah.

      Sources:  

Transmitted by Imam Al-Nasr Al-Utrush in his book Al-Imamah, from his father Ali b. Al-Hassan b. Ali, b. Umar Al-Ashraf, b. Ali Zayn Al-’abideen; Imam Abdullah b. Hamza transmitted this narration from his in his book: Al’Aqd Al-thameen Pg. 199
 

 Transmitted by Al-Imam Al-Murshid Billah, Yahya b. Al-Hussein Al-Shajari, in his Al-Amali Al’ithnayniyah. Al Amir Al-Hussein b. Badiruldeen transmitted it in his Yanabi’i Al’Nasiha Pg. 420, it was also mentioned by Al-Sayyid Majiduldeen Al Muayadi in Lawam’i Al’Anwar 1/97, with a small difference in the wording. 

 Transmitted by Al-Imam Al-Murshid Billah in his Al-Amali Al’ithnayniyah.

 Transmitted by Al-Amir Al Nasir lil’haq, Sharf Al-deen, Al-Hussein son b. Badirul-deen; in his book Yanabi’i Al’Nasiha Pg. 420, and Al’Allamah Ahmed b. Muhammad Al-Sharfi transmitted from him in his book ‘Adat Al-Akyas fi sharh Ma’ani Al-Asas 2/380.


Insha'Allah I will be able to complete the entire book and share it, as it was one of the books that opened my eyes to the Zaydi creed and influenced my conversion, it is around 100 pages, but is packed with insurmountable evidences for the school and their belief regarding the Mahdi عليه السلام 

 
 

Brother id love to be the first to purchase it once you have completed it.

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18 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

We don’t call our Imams Mahdis, they should all serve as Mahdis i.e guides, we don’t use that terminology.

19 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The point isn’t being a Mahdi, nobody has or will strive to be a “Mahdi”

Thank you for the clarification

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7 minutes ago, MexicanVato said:

Brother id love to be the first to purchase it once you have completed it.

Oh no brother, I won’t be charging a dime for it. It will be absolutely free, I’ll be sure to give you the PDF when I’m done. 

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@Ansar Shiat Ali

Did Zayd Ibn Ali (عليه السلام) claim Imamah? If so, bring proof.

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. {3:104}

Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward - {4:95}

Imam Zayd b. Ali was engaging in his religious obligation of enjoining good and forbidding evil, any Hassani, or Husseini who posits the aforementioned prerequisites of imamate and rises, or calls to himself is an Imam of the ‘itrah (pure progeny). Imam Zayd called to himself and rose against the tyrant Hisham.  

As we all know a revolt needs an Imam, and the leaders as per Hadith thaqalayn are Banu Fatema, unlike the Sunnis who say from Quraysh (and do not add any conditions).

Did anyone of Zayd's time acknowledge his Imamah? If so, Who? Also bring proof for this.

10%D9%85%D9%86%2B%D8%A7%D9%82%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%2B%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85%2B%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%AF%2B%D8%A8%D9%86%2B%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%2B%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86%2B%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%2B%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87%2B%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85.png

https://ziydia.com/Author/56 


Did any of the 9 Imams after al-Husayn (عليهم السلام) acknowledge the Imamah of Zayd (عليه السلام)? If so, bring proof.

Acknowledgement of the revolt is acknowledgement of his Imamate. Your traditions carry a range of opinions, at times praising him, at times condemning him, and at times being neutral towards him. However, the question shouldn’t be in terms of the Imams accepting his revolt or not, the question ought to be in terms of him seeking to revolt for the Ridha of Al-Muhammad, this is the twelver claim. 

There is no evidence for this claim, as this authentic Hadith highlights:

يروي الشيخ محمد بن يعقوب الكُليني ، بإسناده ، وهي قويّةٌ عندَ السيد الخوئي ، عن على بن الحكم، عن أبان قال: ((أخبرني الاحول أن زيد بن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام بعث إليه وهو مستخف قال: فأتيته فقال لي: يا أبا جعفر ما تقول ان طرقك طارق منا أتخرج معه؟ قال: فقلت له: إن كان أباك أو أخاك، خرجت معه قال: فقال لي: فأنا أريد أن أخرج أجاهد هؤلاء القوم فأخرج معي قال: قلت: لا ما أفعل جعلت فداك، قال: فقال لي: أترغب بنفسك عني؟ قال: قلت له: إنما هي نفس واحدة فإن كان لله في الأرض حجة فالمتخلف عنك ناج والخارج معك هالك وان لا تكن لله حجة في الارض فالمتخلف عنك والخارج معك سواء. قال: فقال لي: يا أبا جعفر كنت أجلس مع أبي على الخوان فيلقمني البضعة السمينة ويبرد لي اللقمة الحارة حتى تبرد، شفقة علي، ولم يشفق علي من حر النار، إذا أخبرك بالدين ولم يخبرني به؟ فقلت له: جعلت فداك شفقته عليك من حر النار لم يخبرك، خاف عليك: أن لا تقبله فتدخل النار، وأخبرني أنا، فإن قبلت نجوت، وإن لم أقبل لم يبال أن أدخل النار، ثم قلت له: جعلت فداك أنتم أفضل أم الانبياء؟ قال: بل الانبياء قلت: يقول يعقوب ليوسف: يا بني لا تقصص رؤياك على إخوتك فيكيدوا لك كيدا، لم لم يخبرهم حتى كانوا لا يكيدونه ولكن كتمهم ذلك فكذا أبوك كتمك لانه خاف عليك، قال: فقال: أما والله لئن قلت ذلك لقد حدثني صاحبك بالمدينة أني اقتل واصلب بالكناسة وأن عنده لصحيفة فيها قتلي وصلبي. فحججت فحدثت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام بمقالة زيد وما قلت له، فقال: لي: أخذته من بين يديه ومن خلفه وعن يمينه وعن شماله ومن فوق رأسه ومن تحت قدميه، ولم تترك له مسلكا يسلكه))

[أصول الكافي:1:174]

The argument of Al-Taq is obviously against the Quran, as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) states:

O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a fire, the fuel of which is human beings and stones, appointed on which are angels, stern and severe, who do not disobey Allah in what He orders them, and do whatever they are ordered to do. {66:6}

Imam Zayd did not even know of this purported designation of Imam Sajjad, Imam Baqir, and Imam Sadiq, let alone revolting for the Ridha of Al-Muhammad.


Furthermore, here are two neutral sources that affirm the support of Imam Sadiq, and contradict the twelver claim. 

 قال ابن الأثير : وَكَانَتْ طَائِفَةٌ أَتَتْ جَعْفَرَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدٍ الصَّادِقَ قَبْلَ خُرُوجِ زَيْدٍ، فَأَخْبَرُوهُ بِبَيْعَةَ زَيْدٍ، فَقَالَ: بَايِعُوهُ فَهُوَ وَاللَّهِ أَفْضَلُنَا وَسَيِّدُنَا، فَعَادُوا وَكَتَمُوا ذَلِكَ

 [الكامل في التاريخ:4/266]

فَغضبَ القَومُ؛ ثمّ قَالوا: إنّ جَعفر بن محمد هُو أحَقُّ بهذَا الأمْر مِنكَ، ثمّ ترَكُوه، وصَاروا إلى جعفر بن محمد بالمَدينَة، فَدخلوا وسَلّمُوا عَليه وقَالُوا: يا ابنَ رَسُول الله! إنّا كُنّا بَايعنا عَمَّك زَيد بن علي وهَممنَا بالخُروجِ مَعَه،... . فقالَ جَعفَر بن محمّد: ...، فَاتّقُوا الله ربّكُم، وإن كُنتم بَايعتُم عَمّي زَيد بن علي؛ فَفوا له بالبَيعة وقُومُوا بحَقِّه، فَإنّه أحَقّ بهَذَا الأمْرِ مِنْ غَيرِه وَمِنّي

 [الفتوح لابن أعثم:8/298]

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

@Ansar Shiat Ali

Did Zayd Ibn Ali (عليه السلام) claim Imamah? If so, bring proof.

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. {3:104}

Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward - {4:95}

Imam Zayd b. Ali was engaging in his religious obligation of enjoining good and forbidding evil, any Hassani, or Husseini who posits the aforementioned prerequisites of imamate and rises, or calls to himself is an Imam of the ‘itrah (pure progeny). Imam Zayd called to himself and rose against the tyrant Hisham.  

As we all know a revolt needs an Imam, and the leaders as per Hadith thaqalayn are Banu Fatema, unlike the Sunnis who say from Quraysh (and do not add any conditions).

1. I don't understand the concept of "If a son of Fatima (عليها السلام) rises up he is an Imam."

2. Where is the proof Zayd (عليه السلام) believed in this concept? It seems like you made him an Imam without him knowing about this "Imamah of the Zaydiyyah" in the 1st place.

3. A revolt needs a leader, and this leader must be from Ahlulbayt. But Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind his Ahlulbayt who were under the kisa, if they rise up then we follow them. 

4. (Concerning one of the Imams of the Zaydiyya) I suppose you made al-Hasan al-Muthana an Imam because he joined a revolt against the Ummayd "caliphate", but what's funny is that Al Muthana wasn't even the leader of the revolt! And he gave Bay'ah to the nephew of the killer of his father!

image.thumb.png.e127ae320f224a640b83c7f42fa43834.png

http://alhassanain.org/m/arabic/?com=book&id=1347&page=380

Al-Masabeeh by Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim al Hasani

 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Acknowledgement of the revolt is acknowledgement of his Imamate. Your traditions carry a range of opinions, at times praising him, at times condemning him, and at times being neutral towards him. However, the question shouldn’t be in terms of the Imams accepting his revolt or not, the question ought to be in terms of him seeking to revolt for the Ridha of Al-Muhammad, this is the twelver claim. 

I still need proof that revolting makes you an Imam. Praising Zayd (عليه السلام) came down to his intentions, and he did rise up for the Ridha of Ale Muhammad (صلوات الله عليه وعليهم) according to the Twelvers. But agreeing and giving permission to rise up doesn't make you believe in another persons Imamate. 

Al-Kulayni (رضي الله عنه) narrated with a sahih chain,
 

قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام)  وَ لَا تَقُولُوا خَرَجَ زَيْدٌ فَإِنَّ زَيْداً كَانَ عَالِماً وَ كَانَ صَدُوقاً وَ لَمْ يَدْعُكُمْ إِلَى نَفْسِهِ إِنَّمَا دَعَاكُمْ إِلَى الرِّضَا مِنْ آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ (عليهم السلام)

 

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/8/1/381

 

And why was the standard for accepting Imamate twisted? For Ali (عليه السلام), Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) showed clearly that Ali (عليه السلام) is the Imam after him. Ali did the same for al-Hasan al-Mujtaba (عليهم السلام), and Al-Hasan did the same for al-Husayn (عليهم السلام). But after the death of Sayyid al-Shuhada' (عليه السلام), It suddenly became "Who is the son of Fatima who will lead a revolution?" (which is something al-Hasan al-Muthana didn't do)

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Furthermore, here are two neutral sources that affirm the support of Imam Sadiq, and contradict the twelver claim. 

 قال ابن الأثير : وَكَانَتْ طَائِفَةٌ أَتَتْ جَعْفَرَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدٍ الصَّادِقَ قَبْلَ خُرُوجِ زَيْدٍ، فَأَخْبَرُوهُ بِبَيْعَةَ زَيْدٍ، فَقَالَ: بَايِعُوهُ فَهُوَ وَاللَّهِ أَفْضَلُنَا وَسَيِّدُنَا، فَعَادُوا وَكَتَمُوا ذَلِكَ

 [الكامل في التاريخ:4/266]

فَغضبَ القَومُ؛ ثمّ قَالوا: إنّ جَعفر بن محمد هُو أحَقُّ بهذَا الأمْر مِنكَ، ثمّ ترَكُوه، وصَاروا إلى جعفر بن محمد بالمَدينَة، فَدخلوا وسَلّمُوا عَليه وقَالُوا: يا ابنَ رَسُول الله! إنّا كُنّا بَايعنا عَمَّك زَيد بن علي وهَممنَا بالخُروجِ مَعَه،... . فقالَ جَعفَر بن محمّد: ...، فَاتّقُوا الله ربّكُم، وإن كُنتم بَايعتُم عَمّي زَيد بن علي؛ فَفوا له بالبَيعة وقُومُوا بحَقِّه، فَإنّه أحَقّ بهَذَا الأمْرِ مِنْ غَيرِه وَمِنّي

 [الفتوح لابن أعثم:8/298]

These prove nothing. The Shia ummah needed guidance and their questions to be answered. They also need the Imam of their time to guide them. The difference between the revolt of Zayd (عليه السلام) and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is that Husayn's opened peoples eyes to the kufr and nifaq of Banu Ummayah. This is guidence. People like al Nafs al-Zakiyyah (رضي الله عنه) and Al-Husayn Ibn Ali Sahib Fakh (عليه السلام) just got murdered wuthout showing any type of guidence to the people. So when al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) says that Zayd (عليه السلام) deserves bay'ah more then him, this is not Imamate. Zayd (عليه السلام) was willing to revolt because he didn't have the burden of guiding the people like Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) did.

 

Inshallah this Q and A, and discussion is fruitful. Inshallah we all learn something

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2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

1. I don't understand the concept of "If a son of Fatima (عليها السلام) rises up he is an Imam."

2. Where is the proof Zayd (عليه السلام) believed in this concept? It seems like you made him an Imam without him knowing about this "Imamah of the Zaydiyyah" in the 1st place.

We then made Our chosen bondmen the inheritors of the Book; so among them is one who wrongs himself; and among them is one who stays on the middle course; and among them is one who, by the command of Allah, surpassed others in good deeds; this is the great favour! {35:32}


يروي الحاكم الحسكاني الحنفي ، بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن علي بن الحسين ، قال : إني لجالس عنده إذ جاءه رجلان من أهل العراق فقالا : يا ابن رسول الله جئناك [ كي ] تخبرنا عن آيات من القرآن . فقال : و ما هي ؟ قالا: قول الله تعالى : ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا فقال : يا أهل العراق و أيش يقولون ؟ قالا : يقولون : إنها نزلت في أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم‏) فقال : علي بن الحسين : أمة محمد كلهم إذا في الجنة ! ! قال : …، فقلت : و المقتصد؟ قال : العابد لله في بيته حتى يأتيه اليقين ، فقلت : السابق بالخيرات ؟ قال : مَنْ شَهَرَ سَيفَه ودَعَا إلى سَبيلِ رَبّه)) [ شواهد التنزيل:2/157]


يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين 


قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.


قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟
قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

Regarding this: إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً

Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward - {4:95}


The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, said:
((The one who commands the good and forbids the evil, is from my offspring and he is
the caliph of Allah on earth; as well as, the caliph of His Book and the Caliph of the
Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny
)).

Al-Hādi, upon him be peace, narrated this in Al-Ahkām, in the chapter entitled
 “The Virtues of a Just Imam.”

He also narrated on the authority of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his
Progeny:

It is also narrated by the author of Al-Muhīt [i.e. Ali bin al-Hussein] concerning the Imamate on
the authority of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny: ((Whoever listens when the People of the House calls them and refuses to accompany them, Allah will fling them to the bottom of Hell)). 

Al-Hādi narrated this with different wording but same meaning.

Imam Zayd b. Ali, upon him be peace, narrates:

They reject the jihad with the good of the People of my House! It is as it states in the
hadīth: ((There are three people that I will intercede for on the Day of Judgment: the one
who strikes with the sword on behalf of an imam from my offspring…
)) and the hadīth:
((The one who fights us in these times will be similar to the one who fights along with the
Antichrist (ad-dajjāl) when he comes)).”
 

I affirm that my father ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn did not say so [claim Imamate] as I lived with him until he passed on. Muhammad ibn ‘Ali did not do so either as I also lived with him until he passed away. My nephew did not utter such a claim either, after him. Then he said: An Imam from among us who commands the leadership of the Muslims is he who bears arms and upholds the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His triumphant Prophet (P). How can Muslims have a leader (Imam) who is imposed on all the Muslims, who lives in bedroom comfort, withholding the argument for his legitimacy, with a closed door policy, and with rampant injustice. We know nothing of this behavior! Tafsir Furat al-Kufi, p. 475

Quite consistent with the Authentic Hadith mentioned in Al-Kafi where Imam Zayd relays similar sentiments.

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام)  وَ لَا تَقُولُوا خَرَجَ زَيْدٌ فَإِنَّ زَيْداً كَانَ عَالِماً وَ كَانَ صَدُوقاً وَ لَمْ يَدْعُكُمْ إِلَى نَفْسِهِ إِنَّمَا دَعَاكُمْ إِلَى الرِّضَا مِنْ آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ (عليهم السلام)

As mentioned, the narrative isn't consistent we see varying reports, you had Al-Barqi in his Rijaal trying to vindicate one of the men by saying he did tawba from his Jihad with Imam Zayd. 

ال البَرقِي من الإماميّة يُترجمُ لرَجُلٍ هُو : ((سُليمان بن خالد البَجلي الأقطَع، كُوفيّ، كَان خَرجَ مَعَ زَيد بن عَلي فَأفلَتَ، وفِي كِتاب سَعد: أنّه خَرَج مَع زَيد فَأفلتَ، فَمَنَّ الله عَليه وتَابَ ورجَعَ بَعدَه)) [رجال البَرقي:32] .

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

And why was the standard for accepting Imamate twisted?

How was it twisted? It was clearly a particular designation, and a general one. You have no evidence for a designation from the Prophet (S) when it comes to 9 particular Imams, instead it is alleged designation from father to son. However, even that is very circular, as practically every other 50+ misguided Shia sect claimed to have a designation for their Imams. And 15+ claimed that their Imam was occult, and he will come and rid the world from injustice after it was filled with corruption. Don't take my word for it, go read Firaq Al-Shi'ah by Al-Nubakhti. If you would like to challenge me on this point, I would be delighted, and the Zaydi twelver debate 3 thread is open for discussion :) 

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

They also need the Imam of their time to guide them.

This logic doesn't hold, there is no guidance from the twelfth Imam. 

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

The difference between the revolt of Zayd (عليه السلام) and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is that Husayn's opened peoples eyes to the kufr and nifaq of Banu Ummayah.

Imam Zayd had his body taken out of his grave, he was beheaded and crucified. That still wasn't enough, they went on to take his beheaded and crucified body, and burned it until it became ashes. This is testimony to the level of effect he عليه السلام had on the Ummayads and on the people. 

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

al Nafs al-Zakiyyah (رضي الله عنه) and Al-Husayn Ibn Ali Sahib Fakh (عليه السلام) just got murdered wuthout showing any type of guidence to the people.

How would they show guidance without overcoming the corrupt rulers, and then go on to administer said guidance?

Your 7th Imam participated in the battle with Imam Muhammad b. Abdullah al Nafs al-Zakiyyah, Al-Sadiq gave his allegiance to Imam Abdullah b. Al-Hassan, and to his son al Nafs al-Zakiyyah. The source with its Rijaal is in Maqatil Al-Talibiyeen, I have the quote itself on this same thread. 

The battle of Imam Al-Hussein (Sahib Fakh) sure had an effect on your 9th Imam عليه السلام, as he states it was the greatest tragedy for the Ahlulbayt after Karbala.

In Maqatil Al-Talibiyeen, we see your 7th Imam عليه السلام asking Imam Al-Hussein (Al-Fakhi) to pardon him from engaging in the battle (due to having many young children. and no one to care for them if he were to die in battle), but continues to pray for him and gives him money. One would ask why an Imam designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) seeks pardoning from engaging in Jihad, and also participates under the banner of another Zaydi Imam. Surely, the Imam should be giving permission, not asking permission?

Why is Musa Al-Kadhim عليه السلام a 17 year old at the time of the battle; who is supposedly the next designated Imam engaging in battle, which will be one of the fundamental reasons that he is later imprisoned, what happened to Taqiyyah?

You say 

2 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Al-Husayn Ibn Ali Sahib Fakh (عليه السلام)

Do you know some of your narrators partook in spilling his blood?

Yaqtin b. Musa 
He was with the Abbasids during the battle against Imam Al-Husayn b. Ali Al-Fakhi (ع)

Source: (Kitab Akhbar Fakh).

Sheikh Al-Tusi said regarding him: He never shrugged off from his duty towards Al-Saffah, Al-Mansur and he was also a Shia, and his son Ali was also close to the ministers of the Abbasids. (Al-Fahrist:155)

Ali b. Yaqtin b. Musa

He like his father was a companion of Al-Saffah, and took part in the battle of Fakh with the Abbasids. 

Sheikh Al-Tussi said he was Thiqat, great status in the Imami school, when he died, his Janazah prayers was led by the crown Prince Muhammad b. Al-Rashid [Al-Fahrist:154] 

His brother Ubayd b. Yaqtin b. Musa was the killer of the Salaf of the pure progeny Sulayman b. Abdullah b. Hasan b. Hasan b. Ali (ع). [Akhbar Fakh]. 

3 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

So when al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) says that Zayd (عليه السلام) deserves bay'ah more then him, this is not Imamate. Zayd (عليه السلام) was willing to revolt because he didn't have the burden of guiding the people like Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) did.

Al-Sadiq عليه السلام wanted to rise with his uncle Imam Zayd, however, Imam Zayd told his nephew to stay behind. Furthermore Imam Al-Hadi narrates:

 الإمام الهادي إلى الحقّ يحيى بن الحُسين -عليه السلام- : (( لمّا أرادَ يَحيى بن زيد اللّحوقَ إلى أبيه، قال له ابن عمّه جعفر: أقرئه عني السلام، وقل له: فَإنّي أسْأل الله أن يَنصُرَك ويُبقيك، ولا يُرينا فيك مكروهاً، وإن كُنتُ أزعُم أنّي عَليك إمَامٌ فأنَا مُشرِكٌ))

[مجموع كتب ورسائل الإمام الهادي إلى الحقّ يحيى بن الحسين] 

Sunni, Twelver, and Zaydi sources all point to a very consistent fact.

Sunni: أَفْضَلُنَا وَسَيِّدُنَا

Twelver:  كنت أجلس مع أبي على الخوان فيلقمني البضعة السمينة ويبرد لي اللقمة الحارة حتى تبرد، شفقة علي، ولم يشفق علي من حر النار، إذا أخبرك بالدين ولم يخبرني به؟

Zaydi: إن كُنتُ أزعُم أنّي عَليك إمَامٌ فأنَا مُشرِكٌ

 

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3 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

3. A revolt needs a leader, and this leader must be from Ahlulbayt. But Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind his Ahlulbayt who were under the kisa, if they rise up then we follow them. 

 

Exactly.

إن الله أشرف إلى الدنيا، فاختارني على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثانية فاختارك على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدها على رجال العالمين،

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1449_بحار-الأنوار-ج-١٨/الصفحة_0?pageno=389


 الشيخ الطّوسي، بإسناده ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد عليهما‌ السلام ، عن آبائه ، عن علي عليه‌السلام ، قال : ((قال لي رسول الله صلى ‌الله ‌عليه ‌وآله : يا علي ، إنه لما أسري بي إلى السماء تلقتني الملائكة بالبشارات في كل سماء ، …، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين ، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدهما على رجال العالمين))
[أمالي الطوسي:642] .
 

And Allah has chosen the Imams from her sons, not from the sons of Al-Hussein (عليه السلام) only, but from ولدها her sons.
 

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3 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

4. (Concerning one of the Imams of the Zaydiyya) I suppose you made al-Hasan al-Muthana an Imam because he joined a revolt against the Ummayd "caliphate", but what's funny is that Al Muthana wasn't even the leader of the revolt! And he gave Bay'ah to the nephew of the killer of his father!

This is a linguistic misunderstanding on your part فبايعهم means he accepted their persistent letters to him, and went to take their Bay’ah, not to go and give him Bay’ah. That wouldn’t make sense,  in the same passage the jurists are saying we need a Fatimid leader! 

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Posted (edited)

Can everyone stop overdoing it with the reactions and instead refute him/present arguments as to why you disagree because some of us really want to see both sides of the debate. 

Thank you @Ansar Shiat Aliand @Zaidismfor this constructive dialogue

Edited by User 313
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1 minute ago, User 313 said:

Can everyone stop overdoing it with the reactions

It's a key indication of blind faith, an inability to comprehend an opposing perspective that challenges their dogma.

2 minutes ago, User 313 said:

some of us really want to see both sides of the debate. 

This of course isn't a debate thread, I would hope that we can gear any debates towards this thread:

 

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23 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

It's a key indication of blind faith, an inability to comprehend an opposing perspective that challenges their dogma.

The following example of the blind faith in some distorted words of few scholars or daef / weak hadith, and neglecting the verses of quran by fellows like Zaydis:

Why does the quran mention in exactly 12 times the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

Is it not denial of 12 verses of quran by your school of thought?

wasalam

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Salam, I was wondering about whether the early Imams of Zaidism were all in agreement when it came to methods of wudhu and prayer? 

Also, in what areas would one see some disagreement among these jurists, and how do Zaidis go about addressing this disparity of opinion? 

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6 hours ago, User 313 said:

Salam, I was wondering about whether the early Imams of Zaidism were all in agreement when it came to methods of wudhu and prayer? 

Also, in what areas would one see some disagreement among these jurists, and how do Zaidis go about addressing this disparity of opinion? 

Yes there is consensus of wudhoo and prayer.

There are some slight difference

eg.Raising hands for first takbeer. It disliked or allowed. But it's a minor issue nothing the invalidates prayer.

this is a book on Fiqh which is from 2 Imams. Very little difference.

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/1. Zaidi Fiqh.pdf?ver=1613893403491

 

 

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Can I ask on what grounds Zaidis reject the infallibility of the 12 Imams? Can you also provide an overview of infallibility of consensus and why you espouse this concept?

Also, can my fellow Twelver brothers provide proof from hadith that infallibility extends to all 12 Imams, not just those in Ahlul Kisa? 

Pasted from the third Zaydi - Twelver debate thread as per the request of the Zaidi brothers

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Br @Ali bin Hussein’s response (also pasted from debate thread):
“In summary hadith kisa is Mutawatir and only speaks about the 5.

After that you need to look exclusively to 12er sources which Zaidi do not except.

Interestingly there is a hadith  in a 12er book Bihar Anwar I think. Where Imam Jaffer Sadiq is asked directly who ayat tatheer reffers to .He mentions only 5. (I'll find the refferance)

So in Zaidi sources there is consensus but some confusion in 12er sources.

Also we disagree on the definition of infallibility.”

 

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17 minutes ago, User 313 said:

Can I ask on what grounds Zaidis reject the infallibility of the 12 Imams?

There is no evidence for a designation of 12 particular Imams, let alone proof of their infallibility.

18 minutes ago, User 313 said:

Can you also provide an overview of infallibility of consensus and why you espouse this concept?

We must first highlight the Zaidi belief of infallibility (‘isma). We will draw from an article written by Kāžim az-Zaidi, may Allah reward him. It is divided into four perspectives.

The first is that infallibility is divided into individual infallibility and collective infallibility. Individual infallibility can only be ascertained by explicit designation (nass) of the Qur’an and the authentic narrated traditions. This individual infallibility was conferred upon each of the Five Companions of the Cloak, upon them be peace. This is proven by the explicit verse: {Verily Allah only desires to keep thee away from filth, O People of the House, and purify thee with a thorough purification} (Q. 33:33). I don’t want to get into how or why this is a proof for their infallibility; however, it suffices for us that this was the opinion held by the imams of Ahl al-Bayt, upon them be peace.

For example, it is recorded in Al-Jāmi’ al-Kāfi that Imam Ahmed b. Isa (عليه السلام) was asked whether it was permissible to accept the testimony of just one person. He replied: “No. Unless that person was ‘Ali, al-Hasan or al-Hussein.” When he was asked “How is that?” he replied “Because they were infallible (ma’sumeen).” Hāfiz Muhammad b. Suleiman al-Kufi narrated in his Manāqib Amir al-Mumineen with a chain of narrators to Imam Zaid b. Ali (عليه السلام) that the latter said: “The infallibles are five: the Prophet, Ali, Fātima, al-Hasan and al-Hussein.” Ibn Asākir also narrated this statement of Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) in his Tārikh ad-Dimashq.

Hāfiz Muhammad b. Suleiman al-Kufi also narrated that Imam Muhammad b. Ali al-Bāqir (عليه السلام) said: “To us, the infallibles are five: Allah’s Messenger, Ali, Fātima, al-Hasan and al-Hussein, upon all of them be peace.” Imam Mansûr Billah ‘Abdullah b. Hamza (عليه السلام) said in his Ar-Risālat an-Nāfia: "Infallibility cannot occur in any of the sons of Ishmael that can teach us except Muhammad, Ali, Fātima, al-Hasan and al-Hussein, upon all of them be peace."

The second perspective is that infallibility for the Companions of the Cloak (عليه السلام) and the Prophets (عليه السلام) is a protection from the major sins. As for other than that—such as, errors not connected to the Divine Message—they are not infallible from such. This is a difference between the Zaidi belief and the 12er Shia belief. We say that since the Holy Qur’an attributes minor faults to the Prophets (عليه السلام), such is also possible for the Companions of the Cloak who are considered inferior to the Prophets (عليه السلام).

Hāfiz Muhammad b. Mansûr al-Murādi narrated in Amāli Ahmed b. Isa on the authority of Muhammad b. Ali al-Bāqir (as):

Once, a man came to al-Hussein b. Ali concerning a need. He asked him to fulfil his need, and [al-Hussein] said: "I am in the state of 'itikaf [i.e. religious confinement to the mosque]." He then went to al-Hasan and informed him saying: "I went to Abu Abdullah to fulil a need I had and he said 'I am in the state of 'itikaf.'" Then, al-Hasan fulfilled the man's need and made his way to al-Hussein. He said to him: "O brother, what prevented you from fulfilling this man's need?" He replied: "I am in the state of 'itikaf." Al-Hasan said: "Fulfilling the need of a Muslim brother is more beloved to me than 'itikaf for a month."

This report proves that the Companions of the Cloak are not infallible towards minor faults. This is because Imam al-Hasan (عليه السلام) censured his brother Imam al-Hussein (عليه السلام) for not seeing to the man's need. This of course was a minor offense not amounting to a major sin; however, it nevertheless demonstrates that infallibility does not prevent the infallible from lapses in judgment and minor faults.

The third perspective is that the the Ahl al-Bayt have a collective infallibility in that their consensus is a proof in the religion. This is based upon many narrated traditions, such as the Hadith of the Two Weighty Things (ath-Thaqalain), the Hadith of the Ark (as-Safeena), and others. These rigorously authenticated traditions point to the fact that the Ahl al-Bayt are the sources of guidance after the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny. If they are sources of guidance then it is incumbent that they not contradict the truth. If they do not contradict the truth, then they—collectively—are infallible. Otherwise, the Prophet would have left an imperfect source of perfection.

The fourth perspective is that the collective infallibility of the Ahl al-Bayt negates that anyone after the Companions of the Cloak is individually infallible. We do not hold that any imam after al-Hussein b. 'Ali (عليه السلام) is infallible because we have no verse of Qur'an or successively transmitted (mutawātir) hadith that explicitly designates anyone else as infallible. Rather, the avoidance of major sins is one of the conditions of Imamate according to the Zaidis. We say that the committing of a major sin disqualifies a person from the imamate but it does not denote that the imam must have infallibility as an innate quality.

Some may take offense at the term “infallible” being used for non-Prophets. However, we say that since there is no explicit verse of Qur’an or authentically narrated tradition that prohibits this term being used for non-Prophets, this criticism is unfounded and unproven. We also say that since this term was used explicitly to refer to the Companions of the Cloak by our imams, Zaidis have no problem using this term to refer to Ali, Fātima, al-Hasan and al-Hussein, upon them be peace.

As we said before, our belief in the infallibility of the Companions of the Cloak (عليه السلام) does not mean that we equate them to Prophets and Messengers (عليه السلام). Their status is below that of the Prophets (عليه السلام). It is not infallibility that differentiates Prophets from non-Prophets rather it is Divine inspiration (wahi).

http://salvationark.com/salvationark1/index.php/forum/theological/64-infallibility-of-the-imams-as

 

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7 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Hāfiz Muhammad b. Mansûr al-Murādi narrated in Amāli Ahmed b. Isa on the authority of Muhammad b. Ali al-Bāqir (as):

Once, a man came to al-Hussein b. Ali concerning a need. He asked him to fulfil his need, and [al-Hussein] said: "I am in the state of 'itikaf [i.e. religious confinement to the mosque]." He then went to al-Hasan and informed him saying: "I went to Abu Abdullah to fulil a need I had and he said 'I am in the state of 'itikaf.'" Then, al-Hasan fulfilled the man's need and made his way to al-Hussein. He said to him: "O brother, what prevented you from fulfilling this man's need?" He replied: "I am in the state of 'itikaf." Al-Hasan said: "Fulfilling the need of a Muslim brother is more beloved to me than 'itikaf for a month."

Salam this s a fabricated hadith because the man who has been in Itikaf was a companion of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) which he was  afallible person then Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has oredered o his companion to fulfil need of of needy guy then Imm Sadiq (عليه السلام) said to his companion the last part of your hadith ""Fulfilling the need of a Muslim brother is more beloved to me than 'itikaf for a month."

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15 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The third perspective is that the the Ahl al-Bayt have a collective infallibility in that their consensus is a proof in the religion. This is based upon many narrated traditions, such as the Hadith of the Two Weighty Things (ath-Thaqalain), the Hadith of the Ark (as-Safeena), and others. These rigorously authenticated traditions point to the fact that the Ahl al-Bayt are the sources of guidance after the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny. If they are sources of guidance then it is incumbent that they not contradict the truth. If they do not contradict the truth, then they—collectively—are infallible. Otherwise, the Prophet would have left an imperfect source of perfection.

Thank you for your response. I was just wondering if according to Zaidis this infallible consensus also applied to the Imams of Twelvers and Zaidis after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)? 

Also, the understanding of Twelvers is that Ahlul Bayt (عليهم السلام) are the people of the cloak + the 9 remaining Imams (عليهم السلام). Who are Ahlul Bayt according to Zaidis? Ahlul Kisa (عليهم السلام) + the descendants of Fatima (عليه السلام) who meet the preconditions of Imamate?

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16 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

ay to al-Hussein. He said to him: "O brother, what prevented you from fulfilling this man's need?" He replie

In original hadith the needy man when see that Imam Hussain  is in state of Itikaf so due to not disurbing of Imam Hussai (عليه السلام)  he has not asked any help from him which at end of narration when they have passed from mosque where Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has been in Itikaf ,Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) asked from needy man "Why you have not asked help from my brother so the needy man has replied that ImI didn't  want to disturb Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) when he was in Itikaf then   Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) Said " IF he helped you , It would been better for him  than doing Itikaf for one month"

https://www.mehrnews.com/news/4876488/ثواب-بدل-های-اعتکاف-در-شرایط-کنونی-بیش-از-اعتکاف-است

 

 

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In original hadith the needy man when see that Imam Hussain  is in state of Itikaf so due to not disurbing of Imam Hussai (عليه السلام)  he has not asked any help from him which at end of narration when they have passed from mosque where Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has been in Itikaf ,Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) asked from needy man "Why you have not asked help from my brother so the needy man has replied that ImI didn't  want to disturb Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) when he was in Itikaf then   Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) Said " IF he helped you , It would been better for him  than doing Itikaf for one month"

https://www.mehrnews.com/news/4876488/ثواب-بدل-های-اعتکاف-در-شرایط-کنونی-بیش-از-اعتکاف-است

 

 

Thank you for proving the point we were trying to make, which is:

37 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Imam al-Hasan (عليه السلام) censured his brother Imam al-Hussein (عليه السلام) for not seeing to the man's need.

 

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5 minutes ago, User 313 said:

if according to Zaidis this infallible consensus also applied to the Imams of Twelvers and Zaidis after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?

We believe that the 12 Imams, well 11 since the 12th isn't born yet, were all Zaydis. Therefore, there is no differentiation between their framework/understanding and ours.

7 minutes ago, User 313 said:

Who are Ahlul Bayt according to Zaidis? Ahlul Kisa (عليهم السلام) + the descendants of Fatima (عليه السلام) who meet the preconditions of Imamate?

All descendants of Fatema عليها السلام are from the progeny, only those who meet the conditions of imamate are Imams of Ahlulbayt who one can follow.

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13 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Thank you for proving the point we were trying to make, which is:

51 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Imam al-Hasan (عليه السلام) censured his brother Imam al-Hussein (عليه السلام) for not seeing to the man's need.

The needy man has not visited Imam Husssin (عليه السلام) at all because  he has not wanted to disturb Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) in Itikaf also on the other hand Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) told the last part to the needy man not Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام)while Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) The needy man  have not met each other at all.

 

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By the way, this is questions about Zaidi beliefs, so please refrain from rudely answering on our behalf with twelver Hadiths. If I were to do the same on your threads I am sure I would get banned. Heck, I am sharing your hadiths on your threads and still suffer the risk of being banned lol.

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Posted (edited)

ورأي الزيدية أن كل عالم فاطمي يقوم بالسيف ويدعو لنفسه، فهو واجب الطاعة وهو إمام الزمان.

(The Zaydiyyah held that every Fatimid scholar rises with the sword and calls for himself, so he is obligated to obey and he is the Imam of the time.)

Interestingly, this is not the case with the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), the very first Imam. 

Since it is said that "every Fatimid عالم", that means the عالم must be the inheritor of the knowledge of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

It is not the case with the Imams of zaidiyyah. Their Imams are not the "inheritors of knowledge". 

Interestingly, in hadith e thaqalayn where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has mentioned the key attributes for knowing who is the عترتي اهلبيتي. And there is no mention of these conditions invented by Zaidi's i.e., rises with sword & calls for himself etc.

What is mentioned as key attribute in hadith al-thaqalayn is the knowledge العلم. 

ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم

(And do not teach them, for they know more than you)

روى إمام الزيدية عبدالله بن حمزة الملقب المنصور بالله ( ت 614هـ) ما يؤكد صحة هذا اللفظ، قال : (… عن عطية، عن أبي سعيد، قال: قال النبي صَلَّى الله عَلَيْهِ وآله وَسَلَّم: ((لا تعلّموا أهل بيتي فهم أعلم منكم، ولا تشتموهم فتضلوا)
الشافي، ج1 ص154 ، والحديث مروي في الأمالي الخميسية للشجري، الحديث السادس، ص 156

This is further strengthened by this:

ثم يؤكد عالم الزيدية مجد الدين المؤيدي صحة هذا اللفظ بعد أن ذهب لتواتر حديث الثقلين، قال : ( وفيه: لا تقدموهما فتهلكوا، ولا تقصروا عنهما فتهلكوا، ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم )
لوامع الأنوار ج1 ص 50

The increase here is the bolded part which says "Do not advance them, lest you perish, and do not fall short of them, lest you perish". 

It can be proved that the imams of the Zaydiyyah have gained knowledge from the Mu’tazila men, their theologians, some of the Imamis and the Hanafis, while the wording of the hadith of the Thaqalayn states that the imams of the family who do not separate from the Qur’an are more knowledgeable than others, and the Prophet forbade the others from teaching them by saying:

ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم

If the imams of the Zaydiyyah were more knowledgeable than the twelver Imams, then there would be no reason for disagreement between the two sects.

So it must be bravely admitted that the description of the Prophet to his family by saying (and do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you) does not apply to the imams of Zaydiyyah.

Wassalam!!

Edited by Cool
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@Cool This is a question thread, not a share your misunderstandings thread, I know it hurts that you couldn't defend your most fundamental beliefs and that is why you're woefully trying to pick holes in the Zaydi school. You have questions and you're using them as arguments, if you would like to share your questions I would be more than happy to answer them, if you want to debate your misunderstandings that is completely fine there are three other threads to do that, and you are more than welcome to create another one.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

This is a question thread

I apologize for disturbing your Q/A. 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

I know it hurts that you couldn't defend your most fundamental beliefs

That's your misunderstanding.

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

that is why you're woefully trying to pick holes in the Zaydi school.

At least you finally admitted that there exist holes in your school of thought. Thanks

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

You have questions and you're using them as arguments,

The information shared was not a question rather a fact about your school of thought. I have just analyzed that fact. 

You can ignore it & concentrate to your Q/A sessions. 

Wassalam!!

Edited by Cool
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13 hours ago, Cool said:

Interestingly, this is not the case with the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), the very first Imam. 

Because Imam 'Ali عليه السلام was designated by Allah through the Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

13 hours ago, Cool said:

must be the inheritor of the knowledge

We then made Our chosen bondmen the inheritors of the Book; so among them is one who wrongs himself; and among them is one who stays on the middle course; and among them is one who, by the command of Allah, surpassed others in good deeds; this is the great favour! {35:32}


يروي الحاكم الحسكاني الحنفي ، بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن علي بن الحسين ، قال : إني لجالس عنده إذ جاءه رجلان من أهل العراق فقالا : يا ابن رسول الله جئناك [ كي ] تخبرنا عن آيات من القرآن . فقال : و ما هي ؟ قالا: قول الله تعالى : ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا فقال : يا أهل العراق و أيش يقولون ؟ قالا : يقولون : إنها نزلت في أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم‏) فقال : علي بن الحسين : أمة محمد كلهم إذا في الجنة ! ! قال : …، فقلت : و المقتصد؟ قال : العابد لله في بيته حتى يأتيه اليقين ، فقلت : السابق بالخيرات ؟ قال : مَنْ شَهَرَ سَيفَه ودَعَا إلى سَبيلِ رَبّه)) [ شواهد التنزيل:2/157]


يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين 


قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.


قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟
قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

Regarding this: إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً

Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward - {4:95}


The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, said:
((The one who commands the good and forbids the evil, is from my offspring and he is
the caliph of Allah on earth; as well as, the caliph of His Book and the Caliph of the
Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny
)).

Al-Hādi, upon him be peace, narrated this in Al-Ahkām, in the chapter entitled
 “The Virtues of a Just Imam.

13 hours ago, Cool said:

there is no mention of these conditions invented by Zaidi's i.e., rises with sword & calls for himself etc

Despite mentioning the Hadiths from your works and from the works of Ahlul-Sunnah, you know it is just logically that the Imam is either the one who rises with the sword or calls to himself, how else would someone know who the Imam is! There is also a Shuraa between the Ahlulbayt where the most fit/qualified is chosen, and then we see the Imam rising.

13 hours ago, Cool said:

ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم

Yes, because only the most knowledgeable of the time would rise

13 hours ago, Cool said:

"Do not advance them, lest you perish, and do not fall short of them, lest you perish". 

Al-Hādi narrated on the authority of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his
Progeny:

It is also narrated by the author of Al-Muhīt [i.e. Ali b. al-Hussein] concerning the Imamate on
the authority of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny: ((Whoever listens when the People of the House calls them and refuses to accompany them, Allah will fling them to the bottom of Hell)). 

Al-Hādi narrated this with different wording but same meaning.

Imam Zayd b. Ali, upon him be peace, narrates:

They reject the jihad with the good of the People of my House! It is as it states in the
hadīth: ((There are three people that I will intercede for on the Day of Judgment: the one
who strikes with the sword on behalf of an imam from my offspring…
)) and the hadīth:
((The one who fights us in these times will be similar to the one who fights along with the
Antichrist (ad-dajjāl) when he comes)).”

13 hours ago, Cool said:

It can be proved that the imams of the Zaydiyyah have gained knowledge from the Mu’tazila men, their theologians, some of the Imamis and the Hanafis

{Bring forth your proof if ye are indeed truthful} (Q. 2:111) It is upon the accuser to provide evidence for his claim;

You need to provide clear evidence that our imams and scholars directly took from the hanafis and mu'tazilis. This is NOT demonstrated by similarities in positions and thought; rather, there has to be clear and unequivocal evidence of pilfering our theology from the muta'zilis and fiqh from the hanafis. This is because similarities exist throughout the madhaahib, and these similarities could be due to similarity in approach or the like. But to say that madhhab took something from another demands ample proof.

If our opponents would simply peruse our foundational books of comparative theology and fiqh, they would see that our imams and scholars cite the positions of hanafis, mu'tazilis, asharis, shafi'is, imammis, etc. and state where we agree and disagree with them. We share similar positions with the shafi'is for example, when it comes to the recitation of the basmala aloud in the prayers, but does that mean we took our fiqh from the shafi'is? We share similar positions with the malikis when it comes to praying with our arms by the sides, but does that mean we took from the malikis?

I would admit that most of our theological positions are aligned with the mu'tazilis and fiqh positions are aligned with hanafis, but i would say that this is due to similarity in approach, not influence. However, our imams also state points of disagreement with the hanafis and mu'tazilis as i mentioned earlier.

On the other hand, I would say that the mutazilis and hanafis were influenced by Ahl al-Bayt.

My proof? Shahrastani said in his Milal that the mu'tazilis attended the sessions of the imams of Ahl al-bayt (عليه السلام). Also, if you study hanafi usul, you would note that they took many of their rulings from the Kufan authorities who took from the likes of Ibn Mas'ud and the Commander of the Believers, Ali b. Abi Talib (عليه السلام).

- IRS

10 hours ago, Cool said:

I apologize for disturbing your Q/A. 

Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

@Cool If you were to scroll back a couple posts on this same page of the thread, you would find that your misunderstandings were answered. The issue is you are so dogmatic, and you refuse to even think about what I am saying. There was someone who asked the exact same question that you did on this very page, and still you go on to shuffle the question and use it as an argument? 

If you want me to recommend you some Zaydi books to read and study, I would be more than happy to, if you want to debate I will be more than happy to, I would just appreciate it if you, @Ashvazdanghe, and @Muslim2010 can stop jumping around in between threads and derailing everything.

Here is a beautiful refutation from one of the Imams of the Ahlulbayt:

 https://www.zaidiah.com/sites/default/files/articles_files/lqd_lthmyn.pdf

Edited by Zaidism
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