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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions about Zaidi beliefs


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And just to highlight to the readers, the Imam is pretty much going to be similar to Sayyid Khamenei in terms of leadership, etc. I cannot stress the importance of viewing Zaydi Imams as Wali Faqihs,

Sayyid Khomeini or Sayyid Khamenei Ever claimed that they are the 'imams"? or we have the same going on here, we will just assign you to be the imam and start a sect as it was done initially. 

It was a distraction/divide and conquer tactic. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

Exactly that there is no proof for designation for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from your fundamentals because it ends at Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

 

Salam brother this opening statement makes no sense. It's not well written. 

there is no proof for "C" because you fundamentals end at "A"  ???????

that's like saying there is no proof of the power of Allah because your fundamentals only mention the justice of Allah. 

 This is a question thread. If you want there are 2 threads where you can debate me or @Zaidism.

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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13 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

 

So, partial infallibility, will have to do to justify the Tragedy of Thursday, Ahlul Kisa(عليه السلام) need to be just ordinary to Justify Fadaq. Imamate needs to be diluted to justify Saqifa. He is dead, need to be propagate to justify the golden speech of the first.

Many Shia are too focused on the actions of certain sahaba.

A discussion on fundamentals should not require these statements. Their actions do not determine our belief as Shia. 

Unfortunately it seems Shia thought revolves around the negative actions of some rather then the positive example of the Ahlulbayt.

 

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Next time, try to understand it.

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
[Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Salam brother this opening statement makes no sense. It's not well written. 

there is no proof for "C" because you fundamentals end at "A"  ???????

that's like saying there is no proof of the power of Allah because your fundamentals only mention the justice of Allah. 

 This is a question thread. If you want there are 2 threads where you can debate me or @Zaidism.

 

 

Wasalam brother we were talking specifically about designation something you claim doesn't exist in your own fundamentals but it exists only for Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  

You cannot prove designation for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) from Sunni sources unless you use the very hadith you reject for the 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) under false pretenses. 

My point is clear cut you don't apply or hold your own sect to the same standard of introspection that you do when talking about twelvers. 

You cannot even prove Immamat ends at 61 AH from Independent Sunni sources. Your questions are only valid after you have provided the evidence for the illogical & premature end at 61AH. 

Otherwise you trying to debate from contradictory stance other Issue is I don't know which sub sect of Zaydiya you subscribe to. 

Unfortunately your books are not widely available so you are debating from a position of advantage we simply have no access to your books. 

So we have to rely on your statements to find out your beliefs that is a unfair premise of debate.

Wasalam 

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I have some other questions:

1- How do you view Abdullah, Aminah, Abu Talib and the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم) ancestors ? Were they monotheistic or pagans ?

2- Do you also say that Azar was not Ibrahim's (عليه السلام) real father ?

3- These will be short questions about salah:

a. Do you fold the hands ?

b. Do you prostrate on a turbah ?

c. Is your adhan the same as ours ?

d. Are you allowed to do qunoot during the 2nd rak'ah ? 

e. How do you end your salah ? 

f. What is your view concerning praying behind someone who isn't Zaidi ?

4. The classic question: do you wash or wipe the feet during wudoo ? 

5. And finally, how is Khums in Zaidism ? 

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22 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I have some other questions:

1- How do you view Abdullah, Aminah, Abu Talib and the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم) ancestors ? Were they monotheistic or pagans ?

2- Do you also say that Azar was not Ibrahim's (عليه السلام) real father ?

1 & 2 I'm not sure about.

There are book on Zaidi fiqh for details

And the following know link for some of you questions http://salvationark.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13:perform-prayer&catid=12&Itemid=148ill try summarise Q3-5

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

3- These will be short questions about salah:

a. Do you fold the hands ?

b. Do you prostrate on a turbah ?

c. Is your adhan the same as ours ?

d. Are you allowed to do qunoot during the 2nd rak'ah ? 

e. How do you end your salah ? 

f. What is your view concerning praying behind someone who isn't Zaidi ?

4. The classic question: do you wash or wipe the feet during wudoo ? 

5. And finally, how is Khums in Zaidism ? 

3) . no same position as 12er and Maliki. Down by sides. 

. Better to pray on earth but not wajib, no turba used. 

. We don't say come to salat otherwise it's the same 

.qunoot can be done in fajar. But you don't raise hands

.you can pray behinde any Muslim with certain general conditions. Eg male, sane etc.

. End with 2 salam turning head same as sunni

 

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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27 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

4. The classic question: do you wash or wipe the feet during wudoo ? 

5. And finally, how is Khums in Zaidism ? 

Wash the feet

Khums is more specific on certain things

Zakat same as Sunni although some detailed difference regarding locality of Zakat use and whether there is an Imam or not.

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6 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

Wasalam brother we were talking specifically about designation something you claim doesn't exist in your own fundamentals but it exists only for Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  

 

Unfortunately your books are not widely available so you are debating from a position of advantage we simply have no access to your books. 

 

Then I feel you should stop trying to refute and just ask questions. As you are not familiar with our position.

And are using a straw man argument.

Maybe first ask "what is your position regarding Imamat of Imam Hassan and Hussain and ask for our evidence."

And maybe ask "if we hold a principle that divine designation as been ended "

Better to ask and try to understand our position if you dont know. No point attempting to  refute us when you dont read books or  understand our position.

I suggest a few books

A clear exposition

Sublime answers

 

Both available for download.

If you speak Arabic you have acces to many of our books.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

Unfortunately your books are not widely available so you are debating from a position of advantage we simply have no access to your books. 

So we have to rely on your statements to find out your beliefs that is a unfair premise of debate.

The first source of guidance in religion is the book of Allah ,next comes the hadiths of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) . The statements made by Zadiya brothers can be verified in the light of verses of quran. If they are contrary to those these may be rejected.

The detail can also seen further at the thread with the link given below:

This may be of information for you. wasalam 

Edited by Muslim2010
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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Then I feel you should stop trying to refute and just ask questions. As you are not familiar with our position.

And are using a straw man argument.

Maybe first ask "what is your position regarding Imamat of Imam Hassan and Hussain and ask for our evidence."

And maybe ask "if we hold a principle that divine designation as been ended "

Better to ask and try to understand our position if you dont know. No point attempting to  refute us when you dont read books or  understand our position.

I suggest a few books

A clear exposition

Sublime answers

 

Both available for download.

If you speak Arabic you have acces to many of our books.

 

 

 

Wasalam I have asked and you answered your fundamentals on Immamat stop at Imam Ali (عليه السلام) whatever that  is.

You stated Imammat of Imam Hussain & Imran Hassan (عليه السلام) is secondary Aqeedah. 

I have asked many times over can you provide a hadith for designation & end of Immamat at 61 AH from Sunni sources and you said you can't. 

So how do you find it reasonable to ask the same question of designation for the 12th Imam then reject all Sunni hadith mentioning 12 Imams under dubious reasons of forgery by the Abbasids.

As stated you simply ignore the facts and circumstances that the latter Aimma (عليه السلام) were under , you make it sound like they were living in a thriving democracy and freedom of speech and religion was prevalent. 

Yet you refuse to tell us what sub sect of Zaydiya you belong to once you prove Divine leadership which is not at all Divine under your interpretation. 

The people of the cloak apart from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) make mistakes, sin and forget regardless of how you present it in a eloquent way the black & white of it is they are not infallible at all. 

That is the Sunni position you have adopted in simple terms so until you can prove that your undivine Immamat ended at 61AH until then your not really in a position to question ithnasheri along the same principles you cannot prove the validity of your own sect upon.

Also all this Ilm ul Rijal is not a exact science it's fallible so when we reach decisions of Usool we have to use Quran and that's where Zaidism gets undone because your fallible version of Immamat doesn't hold that's why you insist on using traditions.

You cannot provide a single explicit Ayah from the Quran affirming your concept of Immamat.  Rather you start taking apart the Ayah of purification by saying "Rijs" means X Y Z pretty much what the Salafi do.

Wasalam 

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8 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Then I feel you should stop trying to refute and just ask questions. As you are not familiar with our position.

And are using a straw man argument.

Maybe first ask "what is your position regarding Imamat of Imam Hassan and Hussain and ask for our evidence."

And maybe ask "if we hold a principle that divine designation as been ended "

Better to ask and try to understand our position if you dont know. No point attempting to  refute us when you dont read books or  understand our position.

I suggest a few books

A clear exposition

Sublime answers

 

Both available for download.

If you speak Arabic you have acces to many of our books.

 

 

 

Let me break it down to stop confusion ,you have already told me as has brother Zaidism that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

I am asking you a very simple question can you prove Immamat designation for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Independent Sunni sources.

Without using any of the hadiths mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) .?

Can you also prove from Sunni sources that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH.?

I have & can provide sources from Sunni works mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) even upto to the point of their names. 

At this stage it is irrelevant whether you believe these hadith or not. 

Traditionally Zaydiya have been much closer to Sunni positions prime example being like the Sunni you don't hold people of the cloak as infallible. 

Your early history also points to the fact that like Sunni in the beginning your theological position was determinist.

Furthermore in your early history Zaydiya didn't believe the Quran to be created. 

Today Zaydiya is much closer to Mutazilite positions. Another very interesting part is the Batriya who held the khilafat of the Abu Bakr , Umar & Uthman legitimate merged with Jarudiya to form the foundation for your sect.

Jarud  Ziyad Mundhir was a notable companion of Zayd bin Ali (عليه السلام). he condemned the Majority of the companions for failing to uphold the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

He was one of the founding members of the Zaydiya sect yet your the positions today are not the same as one of your founding fathers . 

It's also Interesting to note Jarudiya were the dominant force at the inception of the Zaydiya sect. 

This is why you have had conflicting opnions regards the companions & the people of the cloak it's the Batriya effect that had influenced your sect at some point in your history. 

Which leaves you in a position of neither here nor there.  Traditionally you have been more closer to the Sunni sect than the Ithnasheri both in fiqh & history as the Batriya accepted the first three Khalifs as legitimate. 

So please find me some Sunni hadiths that justify your theory of fallible Immamat being limited to the people of the cloak.

If you can't then the discussion doesn't go much further than that .

Wasalam 

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On 7/9/2021 at 1:16 AM, Zaidism said:

Another misconception from Wikipedia, Abu Hanifa studied under Imam Zayd! 

لولا السنتان لهلك النعمان 

Salam It's just to two years study of Abu Hanifa underf Imam  Sadiq (عليه السلام) also martyr Zayd (رضي الله عنه) during  his lifetime has not created any sect which some people  after his martyrdom have called themselves  as Zaydis.

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The way I understand it that ALL these - Political Movements which we call "Sects". First originated around / due to either a  Government support of different Fallible Jurist of Islamic Law or Political leaders. or subset of the original parties ..

By design their beliefs would have to be influenced by the different political environments/allegiances. Which explains the evolution /inconsistencies in their beliefs. Non of these political theories can be verified or supported by the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) because they were man made, and need justified their creation-( Bidah/Innovation)   Saqifa/appointment/choose one out of six candidate , or whoever calls people to him is the imam etc...

later on For example if one party platform was/or was running on this we are for the Alhul bayth( with different versions incorporated in it already due to assimilation) and they needed to partner with another party which ran on the platform of the the first two/three administrators. Purely for political/leadership/governance reasons to take control away and become the ruling party. They had to form coalition.  The result will be over time, both parties or followers will absorb little bit form the other. so they will change a bit. and the third party will emerge from the original two- and purely due to political /governance reason with mixed beliefs/party platform more liberal to allow for broader acceptance by the public and easier to govern them with such liberal and all inclusive party platform. 

So, the term Ahlul Bayth will keep changing or expanding and become more inclusive and fallible and infallible maybe mixed up or the defination/meaning/scope may expand or change etc.. or some mix if it. Meaning of a leader may change/evolve or the mode of selection/or role and responsibalites or scope will evolve with political environment or the role will be defined and marketed according to  the need of that time ....

Hence the reason for All inconsistencies and theories unraveling once put to the test. 

These are not religious debates . they are political debates 

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7 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

1) Zaidism that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

2)I am asking you a very simple question can you prove Immamat designation for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Independent Sunni sources.

3)Can you also prove from Sunni sources that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH.?

1) I'm not sure where you got this principle from.

2) No I can not. I can proove general designation from Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith. And I can proove specific designation from Shia sources (12er & Zaidi agree upon)

3) see point 1.

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13 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

1)Wasalam I have asked and you answered your fundamentals on Immamat stop at Imam Ali (عليه السلام) whatever that  is.

2) You stated Imammat of Imam Hussain & Imran Hassan (عليه السلام) is secondary Aqeedah. 

3)I have asked many times over can you provide a hadith for designation & end of Immamat at 61 AH 

 

4)Yet you refuse to tell us what sub sect of Zaydiya you belong to once you prove Divine leadership which is not at all Divine under your interpretation. 

5) black & white of it is they are not infallible at all. 

 

6)You cannot provide a single explicit Ayah from the Quran affirming your concept of Immamat.  

1)correct

2) yes with the clause "if you insist"

3) I'm not sure where you got this principle. If you can further explain or if you don't understand I can re explain Zaidi concept of Imamat.

4) my personal aqeeda is very simple. But for the standardisation of this thread refer to the aqeeda as per explanation of Imam Hadi. As for fiqh I follow Hadawi.

5) depends on your definition of Infallibility.

6) I can provide multiple. They are generally the same ayat you use.

 

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1)correct

2) yes with the clause "if you insist"

3) I'm not sure where you got this principle. If you can further explain or if you don't understand I can re explain Zaidi concept of Imamat.

4) my personal aqeeda is very simple. But for the standardisation of this thread refer to the aqeeda as per explanation of Imam Hadi. As for fiqh I follow Hadawi.

5) depends on your definition of Infallibility.

6) I can provide multiple. They are generally the same ayat you use.

 

3. Your back tracking Brother Zaidism told in personal messages it ends with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in my humble position it never began because it's the same position the Sunni hold.

4. You still not saying which sect.

6  That really would be illogical because you hold the same position as the Sunni Immamat is fallible.

5. There is only one definition of infallibility please refer to the Oxford dictionary. 

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) I'm not sure where you got this principle from.

2) No I can not. I can proove general designation from Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith. And I can proove specific designation from Shia sources (12er & Zaidi agree upon)

3) see point 1.

1. Your brother Zaidism said Fallible Imamat ends with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

2.. Discussion ends there is no Divine Immamat in Zaydia it's exactly the same as the Sunni position people of the cloak are fallible. 

17 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Then I feel you should stop trying to refute and just ask questions. As you are not familiar with our position.

And are using a straw man argument.

Maybe first ask "what is your position regarding Imamat of Imam Hassan and Hussain and ask for our evidence."

And maybe ask "if we hold a principle that divine designation as been ended "

Better to ask and try to understand our position if you dont know. No point attempting to  refute us when you dont read books or  understand our position.

I suggest a few books

A clear exposition

Sublime answers

 

Both available for download.

If you speak Arabic you have acces to many of our books.

 

 

 

Let me break it down to stop confusion ,you have already told me as has brother Zaidism that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

I am asking you a very simple question can you prove Immamat designation for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Independent Sunni sources.

Without using any of the hadiths mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) .?

Can you also prove from Sunni sources that your concept of fallible Immamat ended at 61 AH.?

I have & can provide sources from Sunni works mentioning 12 Aimma (عليه السلام) even upto to the point of their names. 

At this stage it is irrelevant whether you believe these hadith or not. 

Traditionally Zaydiya have been much closer to Sunni positions prime example being like the Sunni you don't hold people of the cloak as infallible. 

Your early history also points to the fact that like Sunni in the beginning your theological position was determinist.

Furthermore in your early history Zaydiya didn't believe the Quran to be created. 

Today Zaydiya is much closer to Mutazilite positions. Another very interesting part is the Batriya who held the khilafat of the Abu Bakr , Umar & Uthman legitimate merged with Jarudiya to form the foundation for your sect.

Jarud  Ziyad Mundhir was a notable companion of Zayd bin Ali (عليه السلام). he condemned the Majority of the companions for failing to uphold the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

He was one of the founding members of the Zaydiya sect yet your the positions today are not the same as one of your founding fathers . 

It's also Interesting to note Jarudiya were the dominant force at the inception of the Zaydiya sect. 

This is why you have had conflicting opnions regards the companions & the people of the cloak it's the Batriya effect that had influenced your sect at some point in your history. 

Which leaves you in a position of neither here nor there.  Traditionally you have been more closer to the Sunni sect than the Ithnasheri both in fiqh & history as the Batriya accepted the first three Khalifs as legitimate. 

So please find me some Sunni hadiths that justify your theory of fallible Immamat being limited to the people of the cloak.

If you can't then the discussion doesn't go much further than that .

Wasalam 

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1)correct

2) yes with the clause "if you insist"

3) I'm not sure where you got this principle. If you can further explain or if you don't understand I can re explain Zaidi concept of Imamat.

4) my personal aqeeda is very simple. But for the standardisation of this thread refer to the aqeeda as per explanation of Imam Hadi. As for fiqh I follow Hadawi.

5) depends on your definition of Infallibility.

6) I can provide multiple. They are generally the same ayat you use.

 

So let's break this down further & reveal the contradiction.  Zaiydiya believe the people of the cloak are fallible they forget make mistakes & are liable to commit sin.

They present this in a eloquent way when in reality their position is no different to the Sunni position.  

Furthermore they call this Sunni position Divine Immamat when anyone with common sense can see this is not Divine Immamat at all. 

This is proved further by the fact that they can neither prove the designation or end of this Immamat with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Sunni sources .

And here is the most astonishing part they insist Immamat continues through the lineage of Hassani/ Hussain Sayads and any one who is pious can be Imam. 

So in other words there's no difference between the people of the cloak and any subsequent Imams because they all forget, make mistakes and sin they specifically believe that both the people of the cloak & subsequent Imams are fallible. 

In short they believe the same concept as Sunnis ....Some of them still hold the khilafat of the Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman legitimate. 

Others reject Uthman and believe in the khilafat of the first two legitimate. 

Today they say we only criticise the actions of the first three khulafa and stop at that.

Unfortunately all of this contradictory theology of changing Ideological stances throughout history has nothing to do with Zayd bin Ali (عليه السلام) 

Wasalam 

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Can I please ask the brothers to stop "debating" in this chat ? Other chats called "Zaidi-Twelve debate 1 and 2" have been created for this purpose. I created this chat for the sole purpose of our Zaidi brothers answering questions regarding their faith, and not justifying them, hence engaging in debate.

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19 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

your fundamentals on Immamat stop at Imam Ali

I have the fundamentals of being Imam listed in this same thread, but it is clear you only wish to argue over something which you admitted you have no knowledge of, that is very tragic. 

19 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

I have asked many times over can you provide a hadith for designation & end of Immamat at 61 AH from Sunni sources and you said you can't. 

Do you forget that Hadith thaqalyn and Al-Kissa is narrated amply in Sunni sources?

We use the same sources as you do on them when it comes to proving the Imamate of the Ahlulbayt, again what makes you think our Imamate dies after Imam Hussein, if by that you mean infallibility you are wrong once again. We have, as I explained, the consensus of the pure progeny. Their consensus is infallible as well, and tied to that is for every time, place and era if there is a need for a Fatimid to rise and establish a government while meeting the conditions we have such legitimate leadership on the fundamental level.

Unlike you, you had to create a psuedo-leadership theory, because you guys figured out that you can't keep waiting for an Imam to establish justice when he has been absent for over a thousand year. The Shari'ah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is dead in your school and it required heretical means - in the eyes of your grand scholars of the past - to revive it. This is what I mean by constant evolution, you keep changing throughout the centuries, never has your school been stable and to this day your scholars can't even come to a conclusion as to whether the third testimony in adhan is obligatory, recommended, or Haram. These are the 'guides' that the twelfth Imam placed over you?

Furthermore, there wasn't even a clear indication as to who these 'guides' were, was it the Akhbaris and their methodology, or the Usoolis? Also, which Hawza has more 'guidance' is it that Hawza in Najaf, or the Hawza in Qom. Wherever you look there is anything but clarity, and certainly no guidance, mere speculation at best.

You are arguing from this theory you've been duped into believing that holds no feasible ground in the practical world, of course an all knowledgeable, perfect man, who knows the innermost depths of a matter in its esoteric and exoteric essence is far greater (in theory) than someone who does not possess such qualities, which of course are subject to debate in your own paradigm. In reality, if you open your eyes, you'll come to see that this is completely non-existent for the reasons I mentioned and more.

I would also like to state the tragic sophistry you use to prove these strange beliefs of yours, for example the knowledge of the unseen when it comes to the Imam. You practically use the same exact mode of reasoning the trinitarians use when asked about the ignorance of Jesus in certain instances and how he a proclaimed being that is fully god and fully human can make such mistakes, through reason of the hypostatic union (which has its varying models) and the shifting between consciousness. Essentially the same answer given when asked how Imams could be killed if they know their killers, etc. There is no end to the sea of disillusion you present, and believe me throwing 'half-baked' arguments, as you like to put it will get you no where and I assure you the concerns you raise are not existent within our creed, and at the same time they are found within yours tenfold. 

19 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

So how do you find it reasonable to ask the same question of designation for the 12th Imam then reject all Sunni hadith mentioning 12 Imams under dubious reasons of forgery by the Abbasids.

I have answered this question from you three times at least, this solitary report which contradicts itself on many stances is very far from it being anything whatsoever.

(a) It states that the world will be in peace and blessings as long as these 12 caliphs are around, I ask since when have any of the Imams or the world seen any peace and blessings?

(b) The one by Jabir bin Samurah which you state comes in two other forms narrated in practically the same manner with the changing of personalities and the inclusion that Abu Bakr is the first of those 12 caliphs

(c) It is a solitary report, do you know that Salafis prove Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has a leg, shin, arm, through solitary reports?

(d) It is narrated by an Ummayad, therefore, unreliable by your Rijaali standards.

(e) It is not present within our works, shall I pull a Hadith from the Ibadhiyah that acts in favor of Zaydi Imamate and use it as a Hujjah on you?

I understand why you are so obsessed with Sunnis to the point you have to use their works to argue for your creed, you guys are a reaction to Sunnism and that is what your school is built on. You have a general principle that says in differing with the generality there is wisdom, twelverism has no Salaf from the Ahlulbayt, and it is a reactionary movement that develops as it goes.

19 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

As stated you simply ignore the facts and circumstances that the latter Aimma (عليه السلام) were under , you make it sound like they were living in a thriving democracy and freedom of speech and religion was prevalent. 

At the very least you cannot deny their support towards the Zaidiyyah and their revolts, through an objective historical perspective. We also have Hadiths from your corpus, and from your chains of Rijaal which attest to this in Maqaatil Al'Talibiyeen. There is some addition to the Matn, as expected by your disingenuous methods, it still doesn't negate the fact that there is clear support and even Bay'ah given by Imam Al'Sadiq.

فإِنّا واللهِ لا نَدَعُكَ ـ وأنتَ شيخُنا ـ ونبايع ابنَكَ فَي هذا الأمرِ

Imam Al'Sadiq addressing Imam Abdullah - who you do jarh of!

'By Allah, we will not leave you alone in this matter - and you are our grand Sheikh - and we will pledge allegiance to your son Muhammad Al'Nafs Al'Zakiyyah

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/27035/2/192/"ونبايع"?fbclid=IwAR3NvQudInVDKvFcSac8pwwM7mGqtNHQ8v7jdCagBPaQCBTK1ciwqEXRmlY

The rest of your erroneous claims have been responded to, for the genuine truth-seeker the answers are clear Insha'Allah. 

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12 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Can I please ask the brothers to stop "debating" in this chat ? Other chats called "Zaidi-Twelve debate 1 and 2" have been created for this purpose. I created this chat for the sole purpose of our Zaidi brothers answering questions regarding their faith, and not justifying them, hence engaging in debate.

Thank you so much brother, I have reported them constantly and stated that I don't want this to turn into a debate thread. Unfortunately, nothing is being done. Out of respect for you, I will only respond to genuine questions Insha'Allah.

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44 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Thank you so much brother, I have reported them constantly and stated that I don't want this to turn into a debate thread. Unfortunately, nothing is being done. Out of respect for you, I will only respond to genuine questions Insha'Allah.

Thanks brother, I still have some questions left unanswered, I don't know if you perhaps know the answer:

On 7/9/2021 at 6:43 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

1- How do you view Abdullah, Aminah, Abu Talib and the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم) ancestors ? Were they monotheistic or pagans ?

2- Do you also say that Azar was not Ibrahim's (عليه السلام) real father ?

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3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I have the fundamentals of being Imam listed in this same thread, but it is clear you only wish to argue over something which you admitted you have no knowledge of, that is very tragic. 

Do you forget that Hadith thaqalyn and Al-Kissa is narrated amply in Sunni sources?

We use the same sources as you do on them when it comes to proving the Imamate of the Ahlulbayt, again what makes you think our Imamate dies after Imam Hussein, if by that you mean infallibility you are wrong once again. We have, as I explained, the consensus of the pure progeny. Their consensus is infallible as well, and tied to that is for every time, place and era if there is a need for a Fatimid to rise and establish a government while meeting the conditions we have such legitimate leadership on the fundamental level.

Unlike you, you had to create a psuedo-leadership theory, because you guys figured out that you can't keep waiting for an Imam to establish justice when he has been absent for over a thousand year. The Shari'ah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is dead in your school and it required heretical means - in the eyes of your grand scholars of the past - to revive it. This is what I mean by constant evolution, you keep changing throughout the centuries, never has your school been stable and to this day your scholars can't even come to a conclusion as to whether the third testimony in adhan is obligatory, recommended, or Haram. These are the 'guides' that the twelfth Imam placed over you?

Furthermore, there wasn't even a clear indication as to who these 'guides' were, was it the Akhbaris and their methodology, or the Usoolis? Also, which Hawza has more 'guidance' is it that Hawza in Najaf, or the Hawza in Qom. Wherever you look there is anything but clarity, and certainly no guidance, mere speculation at best.

You are arguing from this theory you've been duped into believing that holds no feasible ground in the practical world, of course an all knowledgeable, perfect man, who knows the innermost depths of a matter in its esoteric and exoteric essence is far greater (in theory) than someone who does not possess such qualities, which of course are subject to debate in your own paradigm. In reality, if you open your eyes, you'll come to see that this is completely non-existent for the reasons I mentioned and more.

I would also like to state the tragic sophistry you use to prove these strange beliefs of yours, for example the knowledge of the unseen when it comes to the Imam. You practically use the same exact mode of reasoning the trinitarians use when asked about the ignorance of Jesus in certain instances and how he a proclaimed being that is fully god and fully human can make such mistakes, through reason of the hypostatic union (which has its varying models) and the shifting between consciousness. Essentially the same answer given when asked how Imams could be killed if they know their killers, etc. There is no end to the sea of disillusion you present, and believe me throwing 'half-baked' arguments, as you like to put it will get you no where and I assure you the concerns you raise are not existent within our creed, and at the same time they are found within yours tenfold. 

I have answered this question from you three times at least, this solitary report which contradicts itself on many stances is very far from it being anything whatsoever.

(a) It states that the world will be in peace and blessings as long as these 12 caliphs are around, I ask since when have any of the Imams or the world seen any peace and blessings?

(b) The one by Jabir bin Samurah which you state comes in two other forms narrated in practically the same manner with the changing of personalities and the inclusion that Abu Bakr is the first of those 12 caliphs

(c) It is a solitary report, do you know that Salafis prove Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has a leg, shin, arm, through solitary reports?

(d) It is narrated by an Ummayad, therefore, unreliable by your Rijaali standards.

(e) It is not present within our works, shall I pull a Hadith from the Ibadhiyah that acts in favor of Zaydi Imamate and use it as a Hujjah on you?

I understand why you are so obsessed with Sunnis to the point you have to use their works to argue for your creed, you guys are a reaction to Sunnism and that is what your school is built on. You have a general principle that says in differing with the generality there is wisdom, twelverism has no Salaf from the Ahlulbayt, and it is a reactionary movement that develops as it goes.

At the very least you cannot deny their support towards the Zaidiyyah and their revolts, through an objective historical perspective. We also have Hadiths from your corpus, and from your chains of Rijaal which attest to this in Maqaatil Al'Talibiyeen. There is some addition to the Matn, as expected by your disingenuous methods, it still doesn't negate the fact that there is clear support and even Bay'ah given by Imam Al'Sadiq.

فإِنّا واللهِ لا نَدَعُكَ ـ وأنتَ شيخُنا ـ ونبايع ابنَكَ فَي هذا الأمرِ

Imam Al'Sadiq addressing Imam Abdullah - who you do jarh of!

'By Allah, we will not leave you alone in this matter - and you are our grand Sheikh - and we will pledge allegiance to your son Muhammad Al'Nafs Al'Zakiyyah

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/27035/2/192/"ونبايع"?fbclid=IwAR3NvQudInVDKvFcSac8pwwM7mGqtNHQ8v7jdCagBPaQCBTK1ciwqEXRmlY

The rest of your erroneous claims have been responded to, for the genuine truth-seeker the answers are clear Insha'Allah. 

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (s) saying:
“There will be Twelve Commanders.” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

1. Sahih al-Bukhari (English ver.) Hadith: 9.329. Sahih al-Bukhari, (Arabic), 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam. This hadeeth is narrated in many other sources as well, including:
2. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Vol 5 p97 and 101
3. Umadathl Qari- page 271
4. Tafseer ibn Kathir Vol7 page 110
5. Jami Usul Volume 4 page 440 (Egypt)
6. Al Bidaya al Nihaya Volume 2 page 248
7. Sawaiqh al Muhriqa page 187
8. Hilayathul Awliya Volume 333
9. Tarkeeh Kabeer Volume 1 446

The Prophet (s) said: “The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.”
Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Saudi Arabian Edition, v3, p1453, Tradition #10

1. Where is name of Abu bakr in above hadiths?

2. Maqtal al talibyeen is pro Zaydi book written by a Zaydi so the report about Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) pledging allegiance is incorrect. 

Also the Author doesn't always mention the chain / Isnad.

3 I find it absolutely ludicrous to accuse us of constant evolution and being reactionary when you're whole movement started with a reaction of khuruj. 

4. AS already proven your ideological foundation has kept changing right from the beginning of your movement so your really not in position to accuse others of the same. 

5. I'm not interested in the consensus of the Ahlebait (عليه السلام) being infallible that's a different debate. 

6. Simply put your beliefs in regards to people of the cloak are no different to the Sunnis they forget, make mistakes and sin that is not Divine leadership in any sense of the word.

7. You still need to prove  that your fallible Divine leadership which  ended with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) ???

8. Please don't side track knowledge of the unseen is a different debate. 

9. You say Divine fallible Immamat ended with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and continued with normal fallible Immamat which you have the fundamentals for why was it abolished in the sixties?

wasalam 

 

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3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Thank you so much brother, I have reported them constantly and stated that I don't want this to turn into a debate thread. Unfortunately, nothing is being done. Out of respect for you, I will only respond to genuine questions Insha'Allah.

And for the record 99 % of our scholars hold the third testimony as recommended 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Thanks brother, I still have some questions left unanswered, I don't know if you perhaps know the answer:

1. They are all believers 

2. He is the literal father of Nabi Ibrahim ((عليه السلام))

 وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ

Those who say that a Prophets father cannot be a disbeliever ought to reflect on this verse:

وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَى حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَى إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالغَيْبِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَمَن تَزَكَّى فَإِنَّمَا يَتَزَكَّى لِنَفْسِهِ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ 

And no bearer of burdens (sinful) bears another’s burden (sin) and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin. You warn only those who are in reverence towards their Lord in the Unseen (without seeing Him) and keep up the Prayer. And whoever cleanses himself (his soul), he purifies himself only for his own soul and to Allah is the return (through the soul’s cleansing, the spirit returns to Allah and reaches Allah). {35:18}

Finally, those that mention Sayyida Maryam and say that the Quran called her the sister of Harun even though she wasn’t his literal sister, disregard the fact that they are of the same bloodline. 

Edited by Hameedeh
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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I have the fundamentals of being Imam listed in this same thread, but it is clear you only wish to argue over something which you admitted you have no knowledge of, that is very tragic. 

Do you forget that Hadith thaqalyn and Al-Kissa is narrated amply in Sunni sources?

We use the same sources as you do on them when it comes to proving the Imamate of the Ahlulbayt, again what makes you think our Imamate dies after Imam Hussein, if by that you mean infallibility you are wrong once again. We have, as I explained, the consensus of the pure progeny. Their consensus is infallible as well, and tied to that is for every time, place and era if there is a need for a Fatimid to rise and establish a government while meeting the conditions we have such legitimate leadership on the fundamental level.

Unlike you, you had to create a psuedo-leadership theory, because you guys figured out that you can't keep waiting for an Imam to establish justice when he has been absent for over a thousand year. The Shari'ah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is dead in your school and it required heretical means - in the eyes of your grand scholars of the past - to revive it. This is what I mean by constant evolution, you keep changing throughout the centuries, never has your school been stable and to this day your scholars can't even come to a conclusion as to whether the third testimony in adhan is obligatory, recommended, or Haram. These are the 'guides' that the twelfth Imam placed over you?

Furthermore, there wasn't even a clear indication as to who these 'guides' were, was it the Akhbaris and their methodology, or the Usoolis? Also, which Hawza has more 'guidance' is it that Hawza in Najaf, or the Hawza in Qom. Wherever you look there is anything but clarity, and certainly no guidance, mere speculation at best.

You are arguing from this theory you've been duped into believing that holds no feasible ground in the practical world, of course an all knowledgeable, perfect man, who knows the innermost depths of a matter in its esoteric and exoteric essence is far greater (in theory) than someone who does not possess such qualities, which of course are subject to debate in your own paradigm. In reality, if you open your eyes, you'll come to see that this is completely non-existent for the reasons I mentioned and more.

I would also like to state the tragic sophistry you use to prove these strange beliefs of yours, for example the knowledge of the unseen when it comes to the Imam. You practically use the same exact mode of reasoning the trinitarians use when asked about the ignorance of Jesus in certain instances and how he a proclaimed being that is fully god and fully human can make such mistakes, through reason of the hypostatic union (which has its varying models) and the shifting between consciousness. Essentially the same answer given when asked how Imams could be killed if they know their killers, etc. There is no end to the sea of disillusion you present, and believe me throwing 'half-baked' arguments, as you like to put it will get you no where and I assure you the concerns you raise are not existent within our creed, and at the same time they are found within yours tenfold. 

I have answered this question from you three times at least, this solitary report which contradicts itself on many stances is very far from it being anything whatsoever.

(a) It states that the world will be in peace and blessings as long as these 12 caliphs are around, I ask since when have any of the Imams or the world seen any peace and blessings?

(b) The one by Jabir bin Samurah which you state comes in two other forms narrated in practically the same manner with the changing of personalities and the inclusion that Abu Bakr is the first of those 12 caliphs

(c) It is a solitary report, do you know that Salafis prove Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has a leg, shin, arm, through solitary reports?

(d) It is narrated by an Ummayad, therefore, unreliable by your Rijaali standards.

(e) It is not present within our works, shall I pull a Hadith from the Ibadhiyah that acts in favor of Zaydi Imamate and use it as a Hujjah on you?

I understand why you are so obsessed with Sunnis to the point you have to use their works to argue for your creed, you guys are a reaction to Sunnism and that is what your school is built on. You have a general principle that says in differing with the generality there is wisdom, twelverism has no Salaf from the Ahlulbayt, and it is a reactionary movement that develops as it goes.

At the very least you cannot deny their support towards the Zaidiyyah and their revolts, through an objective historical perspective. We also have Hadiths from your corpus, and from your chains of Rijaal which attest to this in Maqaatil Al'Talibiyeen. There is some addition to the Matn, as expected by your disingenuous methods, it still doesn't negate the fact that there is clear support and even Bay'ah given by Imam Al'Sadiq.

فإِنّا واللهِ لا نَدَعُكَ ـ وأنتَ شيخُنا ـ ونبايع ابنَكَ فَي هذا الأمرِ

Imam Al'Sadiq addressing Imam Abdullah - who you do jarh of!

'By Allah, we will not leave you alone in this matter - and you are our grand Sheikh - and we will pledge allegiance to your son Muhammad Al'Nafs Al'Zakiyyah

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/27035/2/192/"ونبايع"?fbclid=IwAR3NvQudInVDKvFcSac8pwwM7mGqtNHQ8v7jdCagBPaQCBTK1ciwqEXRmlY

The rest of your erroneous claims have been responded to, for the genuine truth-seeker the answers are clear Insha'Allah. 

We also have different hadith which states Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) did not give bayah to Muhammad nafs Al zakiyah. If Imam sadiq (عليه السلام) gave bayah allegiance to Muhammad nafs al Zakiyah why didn't he fight alongside him ?? Are you now accusing Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) of giving bayah and abandoning Muhammad nafs Al Zakiyah naudbillah.????

It's utter nonsense all independent history testifies that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) did not give bayah to Muhammad nafs Al Zakiyah you are clearly lying against Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) 

 

As for the Sunni hadith it was not shown to you on the grounds that we base our Aqeedah upon it .

It was shown to you on the grounds that we have a neutral source I can provide more from Sunni sources including one from Yannabi al mawaddah chapter 76 with the names .

We also have many narrations from our own corpus of hadith. So far you have failed to provide any independent evidence from Sunni sources for your concept of Immamat which was the whole point.

It's laughable that you accuse ithnasheri of evolution and instability when you belong to a school of thought that has undergone several radical evolutions in it's theology to morph into what it is today. 

Clearly your concept of Imammat s not divine you have no evidence from neutral sources apart from referring to hadith Al kissa & hadith thaqlayn.

To this day half of you still believe the khilafat of the first three Khalifa legitimate while majority of you don't condemn them

The people of the cloak make mistakes, forget and sin and you illogicaly present this as infallibility .

You have been very anti Ibadhi/ Mutazilite pro Ibadhi/ Mutazilite in your history you are basically Sunnis in disguise .

As for the only valid point you have is after the greater occultation there was a theological debate around Ijtihad where Akhbari believed we should stick to hadith when deducting rulings in fiqh.

The Usooli disagreed and felt there should be a system in place for new challenges to deduct rulings according to Ijtihad 

Unlike your early scholars who practiced qiyas guesswork maybe even that has changed your sect has gone through so many transformations in theology it's difficult to keep up for the layman. 

I am still waiting patiently for you to present hadith from independent sources for designation of Imamat for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & the end of your divine fallible Imamat at 61 AH.

Wasalam 

 

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3 hours ago, Ultimate truth said:

I am still waiting patiently for you to present hadith from independent sources for designation of Imamat for Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & the end of your divine fallible Imamat at 61 AH.

You are free to start a thread and challenge me on this, I will gladly shower you with sources. Out of respect for brother @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid I will only answer questions that don't posit further debate/dialogue, so that others can objectively understand the Zaidiyyah from us, as opposed to incorrect sources from wikipedia.

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17 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You are free to start a thread and challenge me on this, I will gladly shower you with sources. Out of respect for brother @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid I will only answer questions that don't posit further debate/dialogue, so that others can objectively understand the Zaidiyyah from us, as opposed to incorrect sources from wikipedia.

Lol incorrect sources from wikipedia I have given you sources from the books and I can give you resources from Independent history and our corpus of hadith for your very illogical claims that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) gave pledge of allegiance to Muhammad nafs al Zakiyah. 

Then decided to abandon Muhammad nafs al Zakiyah far above such illogical accusations is Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام). There is no proof in history of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) fighting alongside Muhammad nafs Al Zakiyah. 

History testifies that eventually Muhammad nafs al Zakiyah was  finally abandoned by his supporters. 

Have a good day wasalam 

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Posted (edited)

Edit: apparently discussions aren't wanted so I just deleted this reply. 

Edited by Mark Enlightment
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18 minutes ago, Mark Enlightment said:

Edit: apparently discussions aren't wanted so I just deleted this reply. 

You can discuss in the debate thread. This is more for straight forward questions and answers.

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Posted (edited)

Salam, I had a question I’m hoping someone could answer for me. Generally we Muslims believe in the advent of the Mahdi (عليه السلام). Where we twelvers differ is in the belief that the Mahdi (عليه السلام) is the son of the eleventh Imam (عليه السلام) and is also in occultation.

My question is, apart from these two differentiating elements, what general characteristics does the Mahdi (عليه السلام) possess according to the Zaidis? I have read through the preconditions of Imamate according to the Zaidi creed but does the Mahdi (عليه السلام) also have a distinct set of traits that will allow people to identify him?

I understand that he will emerge with Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) but even then it can be difficult for the ordinary layperson - regardless of creed - to discern whether they (Isa (عليه السلام) and Mahdi (as)) are indeed who they claim to be. Hence, I think it’s very important for us to have at least an overarching understanding of the Mahdi (عليه السلام) according to different creeds to see if there are any points of convergence/divergence. 

Thanks in advance

Edited by User 313
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Posted (edited)

Reading English sources available. I have not found much regarding the mahdi..And speaking to more knowledgeable brother the majority opinion of scholars cast doubt on the return of Nabi Isa. Early scholars have no denied or confirmed it.

http://www.salvationark.com/salvationark1/index.php/forum/theological/35-dajjal-return-of-isa-imam-mahdi

I'm not much help. But I'll ask around for more detail.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Reading English sources available. I have not found much regarding the mahdi..And speaking to more knowledgeable brother the majority opinion of scholars cast doubt on the return of Nabi Isa. Early scholars have no denied or confirmed it.

http://www.salvationark.com/salvationark1/index.php/forum/theological/35-dajjal-return-of-isa-imam-mahdi

I'm not much help. But I'll ask around for more detail.

That’s okay brother thanks for the help and take your time

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10 hours ago, User 313 said:

Salam, I had a question I’m hoping someone could answer for me. Generally we Muslims believe in the advent of the Mahdi (عليه السلام). Where we twelvers differ is in the belief that the Mahdi (عليه السلام) is the son of the eleventh Imam (عليه السلام) and is also in occultation.

My question is, apart from these two differentiating elements, what general characteristics does the Mahdi (عليه السلام) possess according to the Zaidis? I have read through the preconditions of Imamate according to the Zaidi creed but does the Mahdi (عليه السلام) also have a distinct set of traits that will allow people to identify him?

I understand that he will emerge with Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) but even then it can be difficult for the ordinary layperson - regardless of creed - to discern whether they (Isa (عليه السلام) and Mahdi (as)) are indeed who they claim to be. Hence, I think it’s very important for us to have at least an overarching understanding of the Mahdi (عليه السلام) according to different creeds to see if there are any points of convergence/divergence. 

Thanks in advance

Walaykom Al-Salam thank you for your question, I will share an excerpt which I translated from Al-Kadhim Al-Zaydi's book, Al Mahdawiyyah 

When asked about his brother Al Nafs Az-Zakiyyah and whether he is the Mahdi, so this certainly ties to your question, as there were people who were circulating such rumors, Imam Ibrahim b. Abdullah b. Hassan b. Hassan b. Ali عليهم السلام states:

The Mahdi is a promise from Allah to his Prophet (Peace be upon him and his progeny) a promise that Allah will make from his progeny a Mahdi (savior), he was not named (identified in particular) nor mentioned from which time and place he will emerge. My brother has rose to his obligation of enjoining good and forbidding evil, and if Allah wills to make him the promised Mahdi, then that is the blessing and favor of Allah whom He places in whom He wills from his servants, and if not, my brother did not leave his obligation to wait for a promise that he was not obliged to wait for. 
    

The excerpt indicates that the matter which relates to the Mahdi is a blessing from Allah giving to those who will be left joyous by its coming, however, it is not the only hope that is tied to the circumstances of change. Therefore, his coming in the Zaydi understanding, does not exceed the fact that it is a blessing from Allah which is placed and given to a particular people. Unlike opposing sects which have made the Mahdi the only hope, and means to reconcile the affairs of the Muslims. Truth can be restored, and justice can be established with the absence of the Mahdi; The Zaydiyyah maintain that for every era there needs to be a Mahdi who fills his era with justice.

 - Al Zaydiyyah Qira’ah fil Mashroo’ wa baheth fil mokawinat - pg. 123-14

 

Imam Al-Mahdi in the eyes of the Sadat of Ahlulbayt (Al-Zaidiyyah) 

His name: Muhammad b.Abdullah, from the sons of Fatema Al-Zahra, from the progeny of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein.

It has been narrated from Imam Abdullah b. Hamza; when the traditions conflicted in his regard, of him being from the sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein:

‘‘And many of the Imams have touched on this matter, mentioning that the Mahdi is from the sons of Fatema, and they did not specify beyond that, if he is from the particular sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein, because each of those lineages are the prerequisites for Imamate, and the means to authority, and leadership.’’ 

The great Imam, Zayd b. Ali was asked about this matter as well; Abu Khaled stated: We asked Zayd b. Ali regarding the Mahdi, is he a being (like us)? He said: Yes, so, it was said to him: Is he from the sons of Al-Hassan, or the sons of Al-Hussein? Zayd said: He is from the sons of Fatema - Peace be upon her - and he is from the posterity of whom Allah wills him to be, from either the sons of Al-Hassan, or Al-Hussein - Peace be upon them.

His birthplace and where he will appear: He will be born in the end times, Allah will make him evident and will support him against His enemies, and he is one of the signs of the day of reckoning, he will first appear in Yemen, and it also has been said in Mecca. 

       - Quick note, I would like to mention that Al-Majlisi in his Kitab Al-Ghaybah shares an authentic narration which states the Mahdi will emerge from Yemen, from a village called ''كرعة''  

The duration of his rulership: He will live after he gains dominion over the earth for seven years, it has also been said: eight, and: twenty.

    Sources: 

 Narrated by Ali b. Al-Hussein Al-Zaydi with his chain from the book Al-Muheet Bil’Imamah, and from him Imam Abdullah b. Hamza transmitted the narration in his book Al’Aqd Al-thameen: Pg. 196

Al’Aqd Al-thameen: Pg. 218
 

The (Zaydi) Narrations of the Ahlulbayt about the Mahdi: {There are a lot more, I still need to translate them}

- What has been narrated from the Prophet (S) 

1.  Narrated from Abi Raf’i the servant of the Prophet (S), He said: The Prophet (S) entered upon a group of his family and began to weep, and he was asked by some: What has made you weep, O’Messenger of Allah? The Prophet said: (It is for the Ahlulbayt, Allah has chosen for us the afterlife ahead of this life, my kindred will find animosity from the people, and will be forced to migrate over the nations, and Allah will reconcile their affairs with a man from us.).

2. Narrated from Anas, he said: The messenger of Allah (S) said: (We are seven from the sons of Abdul Muttalib who are the patriarchs of paradise: I, my brother Ali, my uncle Hamza, Jaf’ar, Al-Hassan, Al-Hussein, and the Mahdi.)

3. Narrated from Fatema: The Messenger of Allah (S) said: The Mahdi is from your sons. 

4. Narrated from Abdullah son of Mas’ud, the Prophet (S) said: (The world will not go (end) until the Arabs gain a man from my progeny, his name will be to the similitude of mine, and his fathers name will be the same my fathers name, he will fill the world with justice and peace, after it has been filled with injustice and misery) 

5. Narrated from Umm Salamah: I said: O’Messenger of Allah, from who is the Mahdi? He said: (From the sons of Hashim) I said: from which of the sons of Hashim? He said: From the sons of Abdul Muttalib, I said: From which of the sons of Abdul Muttalib? He said: From the sons of Fatema.

6. Narrated from Ibn Abbas: He said: The Messenger of Allah (S) said: The first seven to enter paradise: I, Hamza, Ja’far, Ali, Hassan, Hussein, and the Mahdi Muhammad son of Abdullah.

      Sources:  

Transmitted by Imam Al-Nasr Al-Utrush in his book Al-Imamah, from his father Ali b. Al-Hassan b. Ali, b. Umar Al-Ashraf, b. Ali Zayn Al-’abideen; Imam Abdullah b. Hamza transmitted this narration from his in his book: Al’Aqd Al-thameen Pg. 199
 

 Transmitted by Al-Imam Al-Murshid Billah, Yahya b. Al-Hussein Al-Shajari, in his Al-Amali Al’ithnayniyah. Al Amir Al-Hussein b. Badiruldeen transmitted it in his Yanabi’i Al’Nasiha Pg. 420, it was also mentioned by Al-Sayyid Majiduldeen Al Muayadi in Lawam’i Al’Anwar 1/97, with a small difference in the wording. 

 Transmitted by Al-Imam Al-Murshid Billah in his Al-Amali Al’ithnayniyah.

 Transmitted by Al-Amir Al Nasir lil’haq, Sharf Al-deen, Al-Hussein son b. Badirul-deen; in his book Yanabi’i Al’Nasiha Pg. 420, and Al’Allamah Ahmed b. Muhammad Al-Sharfi transmitted from him in his book ‘Adat Al-Akyas fi sharh Ma’ani Al-Asas 2/380.


Insha'Allah I will be able to complete the entire book and share it, as it was one of the books that opened my eyes to the Zaydi creed and influenced my conversion, it is around 100 pages, but is packed with insurmountable evidences for the school and their belief regarding the Mahdi عليه السلام 

 
 

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