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In the Name of God بسم الله

Free will

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Asalam E Likum Everyone. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) answer all your prayers and duas and May Imam E Zaman (عليه السلام) help you all in your slightest of problems. I have a question or a thought bothering me alot, As you all know Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us free will so we can do as we please but at the end wherever I look I come upon this “It’s the will of Allah((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))” so no matter how hard we try to reach for something, What Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has written for us will reach only us in time. So how is it free will for humans if Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has set our courses and no matter what actions or path we choose we can’t achieve it?

I know that free will is something we have but is it really free even if we keep doing things but at the end whatever Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has decided and destined for us by his Almighty Will is bound to happen to us?

May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help everyone in these times and people who don’t pray Namaz or Namaz-E-Shab May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help them reach this potential. Salawat.

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Wa alaykoum al salam,

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us complete free will, however, He often guides us through His will towards one thing. For example, if Allah wants to protect one of His servants from getting a job that will be bad for him, Allah may prevent this servant from reaching the job interview through a car accident or being late or a sickness. However, this servant can choose to overpass these obstacles and keep trying for this job. For things that happen beyond us, are all works of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

This idea is the same with naseeb. Yes it is true that there is one man that is perfect for a woman, but either man/woman or even family can make the naseeb go through their actions. In the end, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what state we will die, and how we will live our lives because He has this divine wisdom. But He also gives His servants complete freedom and free will.

And to add, we can speed up, or slow down a particular event from happening in our lives through our choices. And this can be seen in many narrations and stories of the Prophets. For example, a person who does a good deed can have a lengthened life, or a person who treats his parents well. 

I hope that makes sense and answers your question 

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19 hours ago, Murtaza Abbas said:

Asalam E Likum Everyone. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) answer all your prayers and duas and May Imam E Zaman (عليه السلام) help you all in your slightest of problems. I have a question or a thought bothering me alot, As you all know Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us free will so we can do as we please but at the end wherever I look I come upon this “It’s the will of Allah((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))” so no matter how hard we try to reach for something, What Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has written for us will reach only us in time. So how is it free will for humans if Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has set our courses and no matter what actions or path we choose we can’t achieve it?

I know that free will is something we have but is it really free even if we keep doing things but at the end whatever Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has decided and destined for us by his Almighty Will is bound to happen to us?

May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help everyone in these times and people who don’t pray Namaz or Namaz-E-Shab May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help them reach this potential. Salawat.

You are merely a witness of all that is happening to you. You do not have freewill. You exist because you think you have freewill.
This very existence is hell.

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14 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

You are merely a witness of all that is happening to you. You do not have freewill. You exist because you think you have freewill.
This very existence is hell.

I respectfully disagree. You have free will because you have the ability to change the course that reality was moving towards. Life has introduced social repercussions on a wide margin ranging from ostracized by community <-- Jail time --> Death to prevent you from making any drastic differences to the normal day life everybody is living. It's a risk to participate in your free will but not impossible. 

 

This can be seen in any major instance of history. Individuals exercised their free will to imprint their own beliefs, agendas and motives on all of us.

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3 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

This very existence is hell.

I can't say that I agree with that assessment. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordains pleasurable and happy things for us in this life if he wills it-- family, marriage, children, community, growing in knowledge... even if this life is just a test for eternity.

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2 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

I can't say that I agree with that assessment. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordains pleasurable and happy things for us in this life if he wills it-- family, marriage, children, community, growing in knowledge... even if this life is just a test for eternity.

As long as you do not see that personality is mere habit, built on memory, prompted by desire, you will think yourself to be a person -- living, feeling, thinking, active, passive, pleased or pained. Question yourself, ask yourself. 'Is it so?' 'Who am l'? 'What is behind and beyond all this?' And soon you will 
see your mistake. And it is in the very nature of a mistake to cease to be, when seen.

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Salam,

All our wills originated from the deepest part of our heart.  Only we know that.

We are free to park all our will/choice on any of these choices:

1.  Will of syaitans

2. Will of own self based on self intellect and observations 

3. Will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) command us then that command is our will to do.  We listen and we obey.  Our "personal will" to pray and fast is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered for us to fast and pray. We  learn and be good to others because of Allah’s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Will that all humans to upgrade knowledge and do good.  Inner part of us stick to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in everything.

[Shakir 6:162] Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;
[Shakir 6:163] No associate has He; and this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.
[Shakir 6:164] Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.
[Shakir 6:165] And He it is Who has made you successors in the land and raised some of you above others by (various) grades, that He might try you by what He has given you; surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil), and He is most surely the Forgiving, the Merciful.

 

Wallahualam. 

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2 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

I respectfully disagree. You have free will because you have the ability to change the course that reality was moving towards. Life has introduced social repercussions on a wide margin ranging from ostracized by community <-- Jail time --> Death to prevent you from making any drastic differences to the normal day life everybody is living. It's a risk to participate in your free will but not impossible. 

 

This can be seen in any major instance of history. Individuals exercised their free will to imprint their own beliefs, agendas and motives on all of us.

All activities within the physical realm is governed by a higher level of order than that of the thinking mind. The thinking mind's perspective – that which believes there is some manner of control – pushes against the entire universe with each and every attempt to do the “I will...”. This feeling of “trying” to do the “I will...” is the ego – the sense of a separate Self. 
In fact your illusory existence is because of this sense of separate self. The day you realize that you cannot will unless Allah wills you are free.

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3 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

As long as you do not see that personality is mere habit, built on memory, prompted by desire, you will think yourself to be a person -- living, feeling, thinking, active, passive, pleased or pained. Question yourself, ask yourself. 'Is it so?' 'Who am l'? 'What is behind and beyond all this?' And soon you will 
see your mistake. And it is in the very nature of a mistake to cease to be, when seen.

So are you saying that you don't believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordained good and wholesome things to be enjoyed in this life? Obviously not at the expense of the next, but are we not supposed to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil?

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This conversation is taking good turns and good discussion, I want to see more and more thoughts honestly, like the view of people towards this topic. May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help and guide everyone who is astray and keep the guided on the path of Sirat. May Imam E Zaman(عليه السلام) help everyone in their slightest problem. Salawat.

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5 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

All activities within the physical realm is governed by a higher level of order than that of the thinking mind.

Yes that's correct. However you don't have to subscribe to the higher power in order to perform any action within the constrained realm. We believe this because of our faith not because it is a requirement in order to participate.

5 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

The thinking mind's perspective – that which believes there is some manner of control – pushes against the entire universe with each and every attempt to do the “I will...”. This feeling of “trying” to do the “I will...” is the ego – the sense of a separate Self. 

That's not ego. Many would argue that's the gift of Allah, which is the human spirit. The soul transcends other creations of Allah because of its self-conscious ability to recognize and act in free will.

5 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

In fact your illusory existence is because of this sense of separate self.

??? your point isn't being made clearly here. Please elaborate how this builds off your previous juxtaposed predicate.

6 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

The day you realize that you cannot will unless Allah wills you are free.

Allah (Glory to Him) has done this.
"Certainly you are accountable for what you do." (16:93)
 

The entire argument of being responsible for ones own actions and how it effects your position in the hereafter is more than enough to logically conclude that free will and its effects not only on the self but others is indeed a strong argument for free-will.

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11 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

So are you saying that you don't believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordained good and wholesome things to be enjoyed in this life? Obviously not at the expense of the next, but are we not supposed to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil?

Yes i believe what Allah says.
Allah is leading everyone to the truth step by step.
This is the first step that you think you enjoy all good things Allah provided for you.
Last step is when you know You are not the body. You do not have a body. You neither do nor enjoy.
You are Awareness only--the timeless Witness.
You are free. Go in happiness.  

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7 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

That's not ego.

Then what is ego ?

7 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

Allah (Glory to Him) has done this.
"Certainly you are accountable for what you do." (16:93)
 

Allah (Glory to him) said this.

37:96  “While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!”

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7 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

Yes that's correct. However you don't have to subscribe to the higher power in order to perform any action within the constrained realm. We believe this because of our faith not because it is a requirement in order to participate.

 

Salam,

To be muttaqi, we have to believe in unseen.

We have to subscribe to higher order in order to perform any action within the constrained realm.  Even reading Bismillahi Rahmaani Raheem  is subscribing to higher order before any action.

 

[Yusufali 2:1] A.L.M.
[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
[Yusufali 2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
[Yusufali 2:4] And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
[Yusufali 2:5] They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

Wallahualam 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Then what is ego ?

Allah (Glory to him) said this.

37:96  “While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!”

If a man raped a girl.  Who is did the action of raping?  Yes, the man.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allowed that action of raping to occur.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allow events initiated by human to occur.  Right or wrong is based on the intention of the person and that actions  must be among those actions that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) approved for people to do and not the disapproved way.

So raping, even though can be done (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allowed the event to take place) but it is disapproved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Don't do it.  If you do it, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has punishment for it. The verse that @Patient Warrior clarifies it.

8 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

Allah (Glory to Him) has done this.
"Certainly you are accountable for what you do." (16:93)
 

So the notion of  "You are Awareness only--the timeless WitnessYou are free. Go in happiness.  "  by @Shahrukh K

Is your personal understanding. I disagreed with you if it applied to us now.

You can only be Timeless Witness after your nafs has melted totally and transformed into Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Will.  Whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will to happen to you, it happen and you just a witness.  We call those people ...Shuhada (Shahid).  Even their death is performed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly and not through Angel of Death.  They are directly under the control of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forever and in happiness.

Wallahualam 

Edited by layman
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8 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Then what is ego ?

The Oxford dictionary defines ego as A person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance. This definition has nothing to do with your previous quote which aligns more with Determinism in a philosophical sense.

8 hours ago, layman said:

We have to subscribe to higher order in order to perform any action within the constrained realm.  Even reading Bismillahi Rahmaani Raheem  is subscribing to higher order before any action.

I disagree? There are atheists who are living normal lives while continuously doing blasphemy. If you want to make the argument that they're allowed to do this by Allah's will. Then you must agree that free will is a given attribute to all by Allah in the first place.

9 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Allah (Glory to him) said this.

37:96  “While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!”

That verse is referencing the mushrikeen that attempted to burn Prophet Ibrahim. The arabic verse clearly states taamaloon. Which means that which they built or made. This doesn't indicate freewill or an individuals action. Don't just ignore my previous verse. God clearly states your actions are your own.

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1 hour ago, Patient Warrior said:

Oxford dictionary defines ego as A person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance. This definition has nothing to do with your previous quote which aligns more with Determinism in a philosophical sense.

I am not talking about oxford definition,

I will rephrase my question  What is the meaning of ego in Quranic sense ?

1 hour ago, Patient Warrior said:

The arabic verse clearly states taamaloon. Which means that which they built or made

Meaning of تَعْمَلُونَ  is "you do". 

 

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10 hours ago, layman said:

your personal understanding. I disagreed with you if it applied to us now.

I said this is the last step and definitely it is not applied to us now.

10 hours ago, layman said:

You can only be Timeless Witness after your nafs has melted totally and transformed into Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Will.  Whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will to happen to you, it happen and you just a witness.  We call those people ...Shuhada (Shahid).  Even their death is performed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly and not through Angel of Death.  They are directly under the control of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forever and in happiness.

Wallahualam 

True....

10 hours ago, layman said:

man raped a girl.  Who is did the action of raping?  Yes, the man.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allowed that action of raping to occur.

57:22. No calamity befalls you on earth (on your physical body and outer world) or among yourselves (your inner world) that has not already been recorded in a book before We bring it into being! Indeed, for Allah, this is easy.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

I am not talking about oxford definition,

I will rephrase my question  What is the meaning of ego in Quranic sense ?

You really need to reread your previous posts. I'm afraid you're not even keeping track on what's being said.

1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

Meaning of تَعْمَلُونَ  is "you do". 

Reread the earlier post again. Context is everything especially in understanding a verse...

 

46 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

57:22. No calamity befalls you on earth (on your physical body and outer world) or among yourselves (your inner world) that has not already been recorded in a book before We bring it into being! Indeed, for Allah, this is easy.

You're very much so lacking in clear interpretation of the Quran. This isn't even a matter of Tafsir. Your comprehension skills on basic context and verses is poor. This has nothing to do with what you're quoting against. Here's a tafsir on what that verse means; https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-17/surah-al-hadid-verses-16-29#surah-al-hadid-verse-22.

 

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Posted (edited)

Divine knowledge on predestination doesn't negate freewill. That's the foundation on the philosophical argument for determinism/predestination.

Edited by Patient Warrior
Accidental two posts.
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10 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

I disagree? There are atheists who are living normal lives while continuously doing blasphemy. If you want to make the argument that they're allowed to do this by Allah's will. Then you must agree that free will is a given attribute to all by Allah in the first place.

My statement just applied to "Mutaqqi" as in verses I qouted.   As for those who do not submit to Will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), they on their own in akhirah.  Because the mutaqqi have yakin in Akhirah.  Please refer to 2:1-5 that I qouted.

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3 minutes ago, layman said:

My statement just applied to "Mutaqqi" as in verses I qouted.   As for those who do not submit to Will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), they on their own in akhirah.  Because the mutaqqi have yakin in Akhirah.  Please refer to 2:1-5 that I qouted.

Is Mutaqqi the same as Taqwa? The same as seeing God in all the acts one commits?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Patient Warrior said:

Is Mutaqqi the same as Taqwa? The same as seeing God in all the acts one commits?

Salam Bro,

What is Islam?  Total submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Do we agreed to this simple definition?  What kind submission we are talking about? It is only limited to intention???and the rest in our own?  The whole of our existence is for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Islam is complete in all sense, a way of life that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already made for mankind.  Everything that covers all our actions (including intention) from the moment we are born until we die.  How to sleep, eat, drink, think, .... everything... all covered under complete religion named Islam.  When we were baby, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) take command of our souls until we are able to take care of our ownself.  Even knowledge to go to moon and solution to Covid19 covered by Islam.  

Do we have choices to deviate when we submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?  If we lack the knowledge in anything issue, we need to refer to the City of Knowledge (The Prophet (saw)).  Bottom line, we should show struggle not to deviate, if we are substandard in our daily actions, we make tawbah on daily basis.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves those who make taubah.

The other day I was having discussion with my friend.  What actually free will?  We actually have choices, follow or not to follow Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or not to submit to His Wills.  This only happen one time. The moment we decide to submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (real submission, not lip services), we are done with our free will.

If we choose Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then we are submitting our will to His WIlls.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will reveal his planning for us and define our roles.  Meaning whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will in His plan of us is what we will do.  We listen and we obey.  We have to perform prayers, fasting... all other rituals....(common rituals).  How to walk, sleep, eat...everything else are covered under his plan.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has indeed specify a role for everybody based on individual capacities/capabilities.  It it our job to find our roles in submitting to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Those who understand their roles and follow it will get Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help.  Just like all the Prophets in the past, they all were having roles and they did not deviate.  That was why they were Prophet.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Just.  He plan every single human a role that the person can perform.  And we are tested on our roles.

If we don't know our roles coming to the world then we are loss (like in stated in Surah Asr).  Can we ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to know about it?  Yes.  Some general  roles are given (but not specific).  Example, we are required to wait, prepare and assist Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).  Many people know about it. How to be specific?  Then we have to be Mutaqqi and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) surely will inform us.  

If we still get stuck in finding our roles... then we have our Ulil Amr.  Get closer and they will inform us (read surah Al-Fatiha...the opening for everthing).

 

Maybe the verses below can guide us a bit.

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ {162}

[Shakir 6:162] Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ ۖ وَبِذَٰلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {163}

[Shakir 6:163] No associate has He; and this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.

قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۚ وَلَا تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلَّا عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ {164}

[Shakir 6:164] Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.

وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَكُمْ خَلَائِفَ الْأَرْضِ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَكُمْ فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ دَرَجَاتٍ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُمْ ۗ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ سَرِيعُ الْعِقَابِ وَإِنَّهُ لَغَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ {165}

[Shakir 6:165] And He it is Who has made you successors in the land and raised some of you above others by (various) grades, that He might try you by what He has given you; surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil), and He is most surely the Forgiving, the Merciful.

 

 

Mutaqqi is a person who does not deviate (in their belief and action) when they "see and holding on onto" the truth....  (my understanding).  All truth is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam

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No matter how we embellish our statements by saying “God gave us our own freewill”, we don’t have “our own” freewill. “Our own” implies independency to some extent. What we have is the potential to participate in God’s freedom by submitting or relinquishing “our apparently independent will” to His Will by recognizing His Will alone as Real. This is what human ”freewill” is, and this is why it is a distinction for mankind. It is a distinction for mankind because it is precisely by participating in God’s freedom that man is a vicegerent. Inasmuch as we do not participate in God’s freedom we are not free, we are enslaved by our delusional sense of independence.

---Ethereal

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On 6/20/2021 at 2:18 AM, Patient Warrior said:
On 6/20/2021 at 1:10 AM, Shahrukh K said:

 

I will rephrase my question  What is the meaning of ego in Quranic sense ?

You really need to reread your previous posts. I'm afraid you're not even keeping track on what's being said.

The sense 'I am a person in time and space' is the Ego. It is your ego that makes you think that there must be a doer and there is freewill.
The person is of little use. It is deeply involved in its own affairs and is completely ignorant of its true being.  
Are you really at war with your ego ? enquire. 
Freedom from the ego-self is the fruit of self-enquiry. 
The only free will you have is to undertake self-enquiry. 

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