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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate Challenge)

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3 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Did you miss the part where Imam Baqir refers to each category as: منا أهل البيت

 من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

 

Well, by definition, I am a syed too. But I know I am under the category "zalimun le nafseh". How can a zalim be an Imam while the clear verse says لا ينال عهدي الظالمين ?

How can a "muqtasid" be an Imam while clear verses of Quran mentions Imams as "khyra Ummatin" & "Ummatin Wasatan"? 

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Just now, Cool said:

Well, by definition, I am a syed too. But I know I am under the category "zalimun le nafseh". How can a zalim be an Imam while the clear verse says لا ينال عهدي الظالمين ?

Well, Imam Baqir explains that, of course it goes against your understanding of Imamate. It, however, coincides to exactly what we are saying. 

1 minute ago, Cool said:

How can a "muqtasid" be an Imam while clear verses of Quran mentions Imams as "khyra Ummatin" & "Ummatin Wasatan"? 

They can't be Imams, I don't know where you got this from? 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

47. O Children of Israel! Remember My favor
which I bestowed upon you, and I have favored you over all nations.

You are jsut neglecting the words of quran mentiing appointment of Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance and they were not chsoen by the people.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

  • Appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Providing guidance via the edicts of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Patient
  • Definite about the Word of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Do you deny the verse of quran?

How do you justify the Zayd shaheed as iam in the light of above charateritcis? Is there any verse for the slection of iamams by the people?

wasalam

 

Edited by Muslim2010
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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

You are jsut neglecting the words of quran mentiing appointment of Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance and they were not chsoen by the people.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

  • Appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Providing guidance via the edicts of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Patient
  • Definite about the Word of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Do you deny the verse of quran?

wasalam

 

These are all applicable to Zaydi Imamate.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

These are all applicable to Zaydi Imamate.

Show me the evidcen by the verse that imams can be chosen by the people, no mention of such statement in quran nor presented such verse by yourself so far?

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

:clap:

Edited by Muslim2010
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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

What is our understanding of Imam?

I think "our" (yours as well as mine) understanding is that Imamate is a divine covenant and that would not reach to the unjust (zalimeen). 

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Show me the evidcen by the verse that imams can be chsoen by the people, no mention such statement in quran nor presented by yourslef so far?

:clap:

The Ahlulbayt were designated by the Prophet:

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

Take whatever the Apostle gives you, and refrain from whatever he forbids you, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is severe in retribution. {59:7}

إنّي أُوشكُ أن أُدعى فأُجيب، وإني تاركٌ فيكم الثَّقَلَين، كتابَ اللهِ عَزَّ وجَلَّ، وعِتْرَتي، كتاب الله حَبلٌ ممدود من السماء إلى الأرض، وعترتي أَهْلُ بيتي، وإن اللطيف الخبير أَخبرني أَنهما لَن يفترقا حتى يَرِدا عليّ الحوض

Hadith of two weighty things, the book of Allah and the Ahlulbayt.

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

I think "our" (yours as well as mine) understanding is that Imamate is a divine covenant and that would not reach to the unjust (zalimeen). 

Of course, but it is ambiguous because we need to define Dhalimeen, it'll turn into semantics, that is why I am saying stick to the traditions that have reached us from the Prophet - he never designated twelve Imams. 

As for the understanding of Dhalimeen, you would agree that Abu Al'Fadhl Al'Abbas is not a Dhalim, correct? Unless, you want to define it as being sinless, which brings us to simply differing on exegesis, not Qira'aat hence pushing the cart from the Mutashabeh of the Quran to the Muhkm of the Sunnah of the Prophet. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

 

Asyou are failed to bring a clear verse that the people can choose imam for their gudiance  yet we all believe in hadith thaqlyn but it does not  confrim your concept of Zayd shaheed as imam chosen by some gorup of people thus all your conjectures have been destroyed.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Edited by Muslim2010
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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

thus all your conjectures have been destroyed.

I will let you add that to the list of delusions you'd like to believe. 

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17 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Of course, but it is ambiguous because we need to define Dhalimeen,

ظالمين is a secondary clause. Primarily we need to look at the "divine covenant" (عهدي) 

Would you show us which of Zaidiyyah Imam (from Zayd shaheed onwards) claimed to be the bearer of divine covenant. 

We will then analyze the prerequisite for divine covenant from Quran as well as hadith.

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Just now, Cool said:

the bearer of divine covenant. 

All of them, not one brought anything new, nor ever do so. It is simply so the people do not lose sight of a guide from the pure progeny in every era, whether it is at the time where belief in determinism was rampant, or believe in Allah having human attributes, and or the need to have a great leader from the blessed progeny revolt against the Ummayad, Abbasid, and even contemporary tyrants. The religion was complete, there isn't anything new to bring or share, it is simply to preserve and keep the light of Islam beaming against the exaggerations of the Ghulat and the inconsistencies of the Generality. 

4 minutes ago, Cool said:

We will then analyze the prerequisite for divine covenant from Quran as well as hadith.

Your analysis is subject to your own exegetical understanding within your framework, and so is ours, and practically everyone else. What we can unequivocally stand on is the need to follow Qur'an and Ahlulbyat, as for 9 particular Imams that follow through, you need to give me a Hujjah that is unambiguous. 

Al-Majlisi when debating the Waqefyah didn't take the Hadiths they were presenting because it was what was only particular to their corpus, therefore, what is logically sound is to present something that applies to everyone, no? Otherwise, every sect has 'Saheeh Hadiths' with 'reliable chains' to prove their dogma, respectively. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

It is simply so the people do not lose sight of a guide from the pure progeny in every era

Even if God wills so? 

قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ أَصْبَحَ مَاؤُكُمْ غَوْرًا فَمَنْ يَأْتِيكُمْ بِمَاءٍ مَعِينٍ {30}

67:30] Say: Have you considered if your water should go down, who is it then that will bring you flowing water?

14 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Your analysis is subject to your own exegetical understanding within your framework, and so is ours, and practically everyone else.

So why you feel the need to have a debate on this subject? 

14 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

as for 9 particular Imams that follow through, you need to give me a Hujjah that is unambiguous. 

If you believe that it is obligatory on you to obey the Imam, then your Imam should be from the purified one from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), he must be معصوم because there are verses in Quran which prohibit us from obeying the sinners.

Your Imam must be from "Sadiqeen" because a verse of Quran prohibit us to obey the مكذب and so on...

 

Edited by Cool
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5 minutes ago, Cool said:

he must be معصوم

Ibn Al-Junayd didn't believe in 'ismah

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Just now, Cool said:

Please don't give me one name, you know our stance about ismah.

I am saying someone who lived near the time of Sheikh Kulayni, who is considered reliable didn't even believe in this condition, and you are imposing it on us? 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

am saying someone who lived near the time of Sheikh Kulayni, who is considered reliable didn't even believe in this condition, and you are imposing it on us? 

Ok, so why don't you quote the words of Sheikh Sudooq about ismah? Why don't you quote Sheikh Mufid, Sheikh Kulayni, Sheikh Toosi? 

Just cherry picking!! There were a group who believed that God has جسم، would you call it the aqeeda of twelver?

And I am not imposing anything brother. We both have Quran with us, and it has clear verses about whom we should obey & whom we shouldn't.

Edited by Cool
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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Ok, so why don't you quote the words of Sheikh Sudooq about ismah? Why don't you quote Sheikh Mufid, Sheikh Kulayni, Sheikh Toosi? 

Just cherry picking!! There were a group who believed that God has جسم، would you call it the aqeeda of twelver?

Yes, but the point is those whole believed in Tajsim weren't reliable, or were they...[Hisham bin Al'Hakm] could this be a flaw in your 'ilm of rijaal? 

You see all these ikhtilafat and issues between your grand scholars and reliable narrators in matters of Usool? You won't find these contradictions with the Zaidiyyah we have a complete consensus on all our Usool when it comes to proper belief in Allah and His immaculate attributes, and when it comes to the understanding of Imamate. 

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

You won't find these contradictions with the Zaidiyyah we have a complete consensus on all our Usool 

Allahamdullilah and our usool is easily proven from Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith that Sunni and 12er accept.

It doesn't require much effort. Simple reading of Qur'an and easily available hadith. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cool said:

 

And I am not imposing anything brother. We both have Quran with us, and it has clear verses about whom we should obey & whom we shouldn't.

How about this since this thread has become a mess. Let's have the debate systematically.

1)We each use a classic scholar of our Madhab to define Imamat and compulsory belief regarding it.

2)Then we use Qur'an only without interpretation or tafsir. To lay the foundation.

3)Then we can move to Mutawatir hadith after agreeing on the standard. To aid in Tafseer.

then if we get to stage 3 without chaos we can decide on a step 4

So let's start with point 1 you can go first or second.

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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14 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

The people can choose their Imams. Like Sunnis. And Zaydis. But it is extra Islamic.

Just because it goes against twelver dogma, doesn’t mean it is incorrect. Likewise, just because it is more leaning towards Sunnism,  does not mean it is incorrect. It's called being the middle ground.

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10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Just because it goes against twelver dogma, doesn’t mean it is incorrect. 

I did not write it is "incorrect". I wrote that it is "extra Islamic". Which means that it is against Quran and Hadith. You could try to show Quran and Hadith support you instead. I mean history just demolishes you so maybe you can also try to find something in Quran instead. We would all love to see Zaidism from Quran or Hadith. You know. You guys never use it. Or is the Quran and all Hadith also "Twelver".

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17 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Yes, but the point is those whole believed in Tajsim weren't reliable, or were they...[Hisham bin Al'Hakm] could this be a flaw in your 'ilm of rijaal? 

It wasn't Hisham bin Al Hakm rather a sect from his deviant follower. Just like we have Zaidiyyah. You have corrupted the concept of Imamate. 

And not only that your opinion about the 3 caliphs changed from Jarudiyya to Batariyya. 

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2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

I did not write it is "incorrect". I wrote that it is "extra Islamic". Which means that it is against Quran and Hadith. You could try to show Quran and Hadith support you instead. I mean history just demolishes you so maybe you can also try to find something in Quran instead. We would all love to see Zaidism from Quran or Hadith. You know. You guys never use it. Or is the Quran and all Hadith also "Twelver".

This is a misunderstanding on your part, history doesn’t “demolish” us, rather it annihilates you. I mean wherever you go whether it’s Sunni historical works that have Al-Sadiq testifying that Imam Zayd is his Imam and that the people ought to give him Bay’ah. Or works like Maqatil Al’Talibiyeen that have Al-Kadhim and Al-Sadiq supporting the revolts of the Zaydi Imams, Imam Muhammad bin Abdullah Al-Nafs A’Zakiyyah, or Imam Al’Hussein Al’Fakhi. I’ve shared plenty of Hadiths and Quranic verses on this thread that you can go back and objectively view. 

If the final strand that you are all holding on is history we have no problem whatsoever going down that route believe me, and we will see which history “demolishes” who.

I mean for the love of God none of your Salaf are from the Ahlulbayt, your narrators lived in Kufa and the Imams lived in Medina. Furthermore, they were all spies and bodyguards to the Abbasids. Your history is so messed up you had Al-Tusi saying two of our Imams of the Madhab are companions of Al’Kadhim and Al’Askari ((عليه السلام)) which is true, but that is an entire refutation against you, when both Imams have refuted the Imammiyah. Be it Imam Qasim ar-Rassi with his works, or Imam Al’Nasr with his works refuting Imammiyah and his testimony that Al’Askari did not have any children.

Keep in mind, we have Salaf from the Sahaba and Tabaiyeen (from the Ahlulbayt), you don’t. History shows you rely on a gap that’s 300+ years after the Prophet, we take our teachings from the Pure Progeny from the sons of Imam Hassan/Hussein. 

What a sad state you’re in, not only do you take your religion from Abbasid informants, every Saheeh Hadith you have contradicts the other because you attribute Taqiyyah to the Imams. I don’t see why the Imams would do taqiyyah in Wudhu, but participate in Zaydi revolts? Why do you think Al’Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) was imprisoned? 

I suggest leaving the pompous talk, you’re in no position to be making it. 

Reflect on this work and see the reality of the history that demolishes you.

Quote

The Imamis believe it is not permissible to do khuruj before the rise of Imam Al-Mahdi (except Imam Al-Husayn)  so they considered all the uprisings of the Saddat of Hasan and Husayn to be illegitimate to the extent they call Imam Nafs Al-Zakiyyah (ع) a Taghut!

- (I wonder, were Al’Sadiq and Al’Kadhim supporting a Taghut?!) 

The evidence for the close association of the Imamis with the Abbasids are found in their own Rijali work and they highlight the position held by their men. We highlight some of the names:-

• Hisham bin Al-Hakam, he was amongst the Ashab Al-Ijma and Salaf of the Imamis, he was one of the servant of Yahya bin Khalid Al-Barmaki then he became one of the inner-circle (Khawas) of Harun Al-Abbasi. Mentioned in Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith by Sayyed Al-Khoei. He was their star and brightest Imami scholar who allegedly learnt directly from Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq (ع).

• Isa bin Rawdha 

Al-Najashi said he was the bodyguard of Al-Mansur, a great Mutakalim, he has a book on Imamat, some of their companions (Imamis) said to have seen this book. They have read in some of the books that when Al-Mansur is doubtful (regarding something) he would call upon Isa bin Rawdha who was amongst his Mawla. [Rijal Al-Najashi-294]

This was also narrated by Abdul Husayn Al-Shubastari in Al-Faiq Fi Al-Ashab Imam Al-Sadiq]

It is said by Sayyed Hasan Al-Sadr that he was amongst the Tabieen, Mutaqadin in the area of Kalam and Usul Al-Madhab he was mentioned amongst the earliest authors who established Shiism [Taklimat Amal Al-Aamal: 182/4] 

He was an influential man during the time of Al-Mansur who founded the city of Madinah Al-Salam (ie Baghdad). He was mentioned in the book Tarikh Al-Baghdad written by Ahmad bin Abi Tahir. 

Abbas Iqbal Ashtayani said he was amongst the earliest authors in the matter of Imamah amongst the Imami Mutakalimun.

• Muhammad bin Ismail bin Yazi’.

He is amongst the narrators of the Principle books of the Imamis. Sheikh Al-Tusi mentioned in Al-Fahrist, Al-Najashi said he was the Mawla (slave) of Abu Mansur, he was amongst the Thiqat, he has many deeds.

• Yaqtin bin Musa 

He was with the Abbasid during the battle against Imam Al-Husayn bin Ali Al-Fakhi (ع) (Kitab Akbar Fakh). 

Sheikh Al-Tusi said regarding him: He never shrugged off from his duty towards Al-Saffah, Al-Mansur and he was also a Shii and also his son (Al-Fahrist:155), his son Ali was also close to the ministers of the Abbasids. 

Al-Najashi said it was narrated from Imam Al-Saddiq, that letters were sent from him at that time he was the Wali of Al-Ahwaz before Al-Mansur [Rijal Al-Najashi:213]

• Abdullah bin Sinan 

Al-Najashi said he was the treasurer of Al-Mansur, Al-Mahdi, Al-Hadi and Al-Rashid, a Kufi, trustworthy, from their great Companions (Imamis). He has a book called Salat Al-Kabir in it all the Halal and Haram (ie laws) are found [Rijal Al-Najashi:214]

Al-Barqi said he is from the Mawla of Bani Abbas, was the minister of Al-Mahdi, Musa and Harun [Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith: 5/32]

Daud bin Ali Al-Abidi

Sheikh Al-Tusi said he was from the companions of Al-Mahdi [Rijal Al-Tusi:375]

• Ali bin Yaqtin bin Musa

He like his father was a companion of Al-Saffah, Abi Ja’far and took part in the battle of Fakh with the Abbasids. 

Sheikh Al-Tussi said he was Thiqat, great status in the Imami school, when he died, his Janazah prayers was led by the crown Prince Muhammad bin Al-Rashid [Al-Fahrist:154] 

His brother Ubayd bin Yaqtin bin Musa was the killer of the Salaf of the Itrah Sulayman bin Abdullah bin Hasan bin Hasan bin Ali (ع). [Akhbar Al-Fakh]. 

We could see how close the Early Imami scholars were with the Abbasid State. One of the famous families who represented Imamis were the Nawbakht family, they occupied high positions in the Abbasid court also documented in their own books. One of the four Deputies of the Hidden Twelve Imams was Al-Husayn Ibn Al-Ruh Al-Nawbakhti, from the Nawbakhti family. There are a lot more examples of their direct participation in the Abbasid Government. 

The Abbasids did not consider them as opponents because they not only failed to support any of the sons of their 12 Imams but also led armies to wage war against them for the Abbasids and they call themselves Shias of Imam Ali.

Harun Al-Abbasi said: 

والله ما بيني وبين الإمامية خلاف فلئن قام إمامهم على الصفة التي ذكروا لأكونن أول من تبعه، وما عدوي وعدو آبائي إلا هؤلاء الزيدية الذين كلما خرج من هؤلاء القوم خارج أصلتوا أسيافهم بين يديه، وتغسلوا وتحنطوا يطلبون الجنة)) [الشافي]

By Allah I have no difference (ikhtilaf) with the Imamiyyah, when their Imams rise with the attributes they mention, I will be the first to follow, and my enemy and the enemy of my ancestors are those Zaydis, whenever someone from amongst them do khuruj, they straighten (or raise)  their swords between their arms, and they wash and embalm with it and they seek Jannah

[Narrated by Imam Abdullah bin Hamza in Al-Shafi]

 

اللهم صل على محمد و آل محمد

This is what history shows, and there is more where that came from.

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

It wasn't Hisham bin Al Hakm rather a sect from his deviant follower. Just like we have Zaidiyyah. You have corrupted the concept of Imamate. 

And not only that your opinion about the 3 caliphs changed from Jarudiyya to Batariyya. 

I’ll share the Hadiths with you momentarily, as I am not home now. Al-Kafi testifies to the Tajsim of Hisham and I will demonstrate this Insha’Allah.

As for Jarudiyyah and whatever sect you pull from Wikipedia, they’re all extinct. I can point to 20 sects just from Nubakhtis firaq Al’Shia and say, your opinion about the Imams not being Gods changed.

What is this nonsense Akhi, with all due respect. 

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15 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Let's have the debate systematically.

It will be useless. 

We have already discussed much here and this seems a waste of time. So a brotherly & Quranic statement is sufficient:

فَانتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

It will be useless. 

We have already discussed much here and this seems a waste of time. So a brotherly & Quranic statement is sufficient:

فَانتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ

I hope you’re not trying to turn the blame on us, after all it is clear who the hecklers were and who kept jumping from one point to another and was still shutdown by Zaydi consistency. 

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12 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Al-Kafi testifies to the Tajsim of Hisham and I will demonstrate this Insha’Allah.

What you are forgetting is that "everything" written in Al-Kafi is not considered authentic by shia scholars of hadith & rijal. So make sure to bring such which is authentic in isnad and is not contradictory. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

hope you’re not trying to turn the blame on us, after all it is clear who the hecklers were and who kept jumping from one point to another and was still shutdown by Zaydi consistency. 

I am at peace brother.

I don't want to ignite your emotions by proving you wrong. 

Regarding your "consistency", it is totally absent, not elsewhere, but in the very definition of Imamate.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Tajsim of Hisham

1.

محمد بن أبي عبد الله عمن ذكره عن علي بن العباس عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر عن محمد بن حكيم قال: وصفت لأبي إبراهيم (ع) قول هشام بن سالم الجواليقي وحكيت له: قول هشام بن الحكم إنه جسم فقال: إن الله تعالى لا يشبهه شيء  أي فحش أو خنى أعظم من قول من يصف خالق الأشياء بجسم أو صورة أو بخلقة أو بتحديد وأعضاء تعالى الله عن ذلك علوا كبيرا

Source: الكافي للكليني (329 هـ) الجزء 1 صفحة 105 باب النهي عن الجسم والصورة

2.

علي بن محمد رفعه عن محمد بن الفرج الرخجي قال: كتبت إلى أبي الحسن (ع) أسأله عما قال هشام بن الحكم في الجسم وهشام بن سالم في الصورة فكتب: دع عنك حيرة الحيران واستعذ بالله من الشيطان ليس القول ما قال الهشامان

Source: التوحيد للصدوق (381 هـ) صفحة 97 باب 6 إنه عز وجل ليس بجسم ولا صورة

- Also narrated in Al-Kafi

3.

حدثنا حمزة بن محمد العلوي  قال: أخبرنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن محمد بن عيسى عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن عن محمد بن حكيم قال: وصفت لأبي الحسن ع قول هشام الجواليقي وما يقول في الشاب الموفق و وصفت له قول هشام بن الحكم فقال: إن الله عز وجل لا يشبهه شيء

Source: التوحيد للصدوق (381 هـ) صفحة 97 باب 6 إنه عز وجل ليس بجسم ولا صورة

4. 

حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد بن عمران الدقاق  قال: حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب قال: حدثنا علي بن محمد رفعه عن محمد بن الفرج الرخجي قال: كتبت إلى أبي الحسن ع: أسأله عما قال هشام بن الحكم في الجسم و هشام بن سالم في الصورة فكتب ع: دع عنك حيرة الحيران واستعذ بالله من الشيطان ليس القول ما قال الهشامان

Source: التوحيد للصدوق (381 هـ) صفحة 97 باب 6 إنه عز وجل ليس بجسم ولا صورة

5. 

حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن عبد الله بن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي  عن أبيه عن جده أحمد بن أبي عبد الله عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر عن محمد بن حكيم قال: وصفت لأبي إبراهيم ع قول هشام الجواليقي وحكيت له قول هشام بن الحكم: إنه جسم فقال: إن الله لا يشبهه شيء أي فحش أو خناء أعظم من قول من يصف خالق الأشياء بجسم أو صورة أو بخلقة أو بتحديد أو أعضاء؟ ! تعالى الله عن ذلك علوا كبيرا

Source: بحار الأنوار للمجلسي (1111 هـ) ج3 ص287 باب 13 نفي الجسم والصورة والتشبيه والحلول والاتحاد

There are more, but these 5 should suffice Insha'Allah. Regarding the manner in which twelvers seek to vindicate their 'reliable' Tajsimi Abbasid servant narrators, they say that they were simply engaging in Kalam arguments and those who narrated these A'hadith about them weren't able to understand the arguments that the Hishams were making - whatever arguments those could possibly be, I don't see how philosophically entertaining the idea of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) having a body and being contained in the realm of forms and particles could possibly serve in the eventual conclusion of Tawhid, nonetheless I will allow his relationship with the Zindiq Abu Shakir speak for itself. 

6.

علي بن محمد، قال: حدثني محمد بن أحمد، عن العباس بن معروف عن أبي محمد الحجال، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال: ذكر الرضا عليه السلام العباسي، فقال: هو من غلمان أبي الحارث يعني يونس بن عبد الرحمن، وأبو الحارث من غلمان هشام، وهشام من غلمان أبي شاكر الديصاني، وأبو شاكر زنديق

Source: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2933_اختيار-معرفة-الرجال-الشيخ-الطوسي-ج-٢/الصفحة_146#top

Furthermore, the شرح given as mentioned earlier, not only seeks to wiggle out with an excuse that Hisham was making Kalami arguments against the Mu'tazilah - which doesn't make sense because they don't believe in Tajsim. He also doesn't address the fact that there were other reliable students and narrators whose A'Hadith are acceptable that were stating to the Imams this was indeed the belief of the two Hishams. You see how it's a Catch-22?

He also mentions that Hisham states this in his argument: فقولوا أنه جسم لا كالأجسام 

Okay, but isn't that what Salafis say?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cool said:

Regarding your "consistency", it is totally absent, not elsewhere, but in the very definition of Imamate.

The statement is agreed :grin:

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

There are more, but these 5 should suffice Insha'Allah.

:) Thinking that I am not aware of what material are there for you to pick and throw at me.

So lets start with what Al-khoi and a hadith mentioned below:

Quote

وإني لاظنّ الروايات الدالّة على أنّ هشاماً كان يقول بالجسمية كلّها مرضوعة، وقد نشأت هذه النسبة من الحسد، كما دلّ على ذلك رواية الكتشي المتقدّمة بإسناده عن سليمان بن جعفر الجعفرى، قال: سألت أبا الحسن الرضا عليه السلام عن هشام بن الحكم، قال: فقال (رحمه اللّه): كان عبداً ناصحاً وأوذى من قبل أصحابه حسداً منهم له.

 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

محمد بن أبي عبد الله عمن ذكره عن علي بن العباس عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر عن محمد بن حكيم قال: وصفت لأبي إبراهيم (ع) قول

قوله «عمن ذكره، عن علي بن العباس» وصفه صدر المتألهين بالجراذيني بالراء بعد الجيم والذال المعجمة بعد الألف قبل الياء المنقطة تحتها نقطتين وبعدها النون الرازي رمى بالغلو وغمز عليه، ضعيف جدا له تصنيف في الممدوحين والمذمومين يدل على خبثه وتهالك مذهبه لا يلتفت إليه ولا يعبأ بما رواه (صه).
http://shiaonlinelibrary.com

شرح أصول الكافي - مولي محمد صالح المازندراني - ج ٣ - الصفحة ٢٢٨

If you want to learn more about Hisham bin Al-Hikam, go through the following link:

https://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=8032

:) Wassalam!!

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