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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate Challenge)

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@Zaidism, @Ali bin Hussein while we're tossing Surah Maryam out of the Qurʼān we might as well toss Surah Luqman out too...Luqman al-Hakeem (a) was an Ethiopian holy man or Nubian sage...Qurʼān states nowhere that he was a prophet or messenger (I defy you to prove otherwise)...the story goes that while he was sleeping underneath a tree, an angel appeared to him and told him that Allah wanted to bestow a 'gift' or a 'favor' upon him...either spiritual insight or kingship...with the choice of one of two gifts before him...he chose the gift of wisdom...when he woke from his sleep, he became aware that his senses had heightened and his perception and understanding of reality had sharpened tremendously...he began to understand the inner meaning of things, (beyond their physical or superficial reality)...obviously this is pure ghuluww talk and we should toss Surah Luqman out of the Qurʼān (purposely being sarcastic to illustrate point)

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1 minute ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Hussein while we're tossing Surah Maryam out of the Qurʼān we might as well toss Surah Luqman out too...Luqman al-Hakeem (a) was an Ethiopian holy man or Nubian sage...Qurʼān states nowhere that he was a prophet or messenger (I defy you to prove otherwise)...the story goes that while he was sleeping underneath a tree, an angel appeared to him and told him that Allah wanted to bestow a 'gift' or a 'favor' upon him...either spiritual insight or kingship...with the choice of one of two gifts before him...he chose the gift of wisdom...when he woke from his sleep, he became aware that his senses had heightened and his perception and understanding of reality had sharpened tremendously...he began to understand the inner meaning of things, (beyond their physical or superficial reality)...obviously this is pure ghuluww talk and we should toss Surah Luqman out of the Qurʼān (purposely being sarcastic to illustrate point)

A lack of understanding of the Quran is what leads to confusion

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1 minute ago, Zaidism said:

A lack of understanding of the Quran is what leads to confusion

Please expand and elaborate 

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53 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Please expand and elaborate 

It leads us to false conclusions, could you kindly demonstrate the points you are wanting to make. Without the use of sarcasm, or movie references. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

...Qurʼān states nowhere that he was a prophet or messenger (I defy you to prove otherwise)...

Apply this mind set ( a correct mindset)

To your belief system. Ask for clear evidence. Do you really believe you can derive concept of 12 Imams from Qur'an. And if you can then it shouldn't be a stretch to derive that Luqman was a Prophet from Qur'an.

With enough interpretation, mental gymnastics you can "proove" any thing you want.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Salam

Concerning verse 35:32, I checked Zaid hadiths on it, and it verifies the view I had about it. I will quote the hadiths first then discuss the interpretation.

Al: Furat bin Ibrahim Al-Kufi told us,

on the authority of Abu Al-Jarud, who said: I asked Zaid bin Ali [peace be upon them]. A, R] about this verse: {Then We inherited the Book whom We chose from among Our servants, so some of them are unjust to themselves, and among them are thrifty, and among them are those who are forerunners of good deeds, by God's permission.

I asked Zaid ibn Ali (a) about the verse "Then we inherited the book to those who we decided out of our servants so from them is he who is subjugated towards himself and from them is who is in a middle course and from them is who races ahead in good deeds by permission of God, he said "The dominant towards himself" he is from what is in the people and "the middle course one" is worshiper present and "from them is who he races ahead of all in good "Deeds" his illumination is his sword.

[He said: Tell us. A, B] Furat [He said: Al-Husayn bin Al-Hakam told us. t] to prevent us:

On the authority of Ghaleb bin Othman al-Nahdi [on the authority of Abu Ishaq al-Subai'i] he said: I went out as a pilgrim and passed by Abu Jaafar, peace be upon him, and asked him about this verse: {Then we inherited the book} to the end of it. He said: Muhammad bin Ali said to me: What do your people say about it, O Abu Ishaq? - I mean the people of Kufa -. I said: They claim that it was revealed to them. He said: Muhammad bin Ali said to me: What will grieve them if they are in Paradise? He said: I said: May I be your ransom, so what do you say about it? He said: O Abu Ishaq, this one, by God, is for us.R] {Foremost in good deeds} Ali bin Abi Talib, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain [peace be upon them. A, R. and Radwan. R] And the martyr is among us, the people of the House, and the one who wrongs himself is in whom is what is in the people, and he is forgiven. Then he said: O Abu Ishaq, with us, God removes your stumbling blocks, and with us, God forgives your sins, and with us, God pays off your debts, and with us, God frees the bonds of humiliation from your necks, and with us He seals and [by us]. b] It will be opened to your father, and we are your cave like the companions of the cave, and we are your ark like Noah's ark, and we are the gate of your station like the gate of the Hatta of Bani Israel.

He said I had a need so I went to Abu Jafar (Imam Baqir) (a) so I asked him about this verse "Then we inherited the book... to end of the verse" so Mohamad son of Ali said to me, what do your people say regarding it O Father of Ishaq (Abu Ishaq)? - Meaning the people of Kufa, I said: they think it's revealed regarding them, so he said: "Mohamad son of Ali said to me, what will cause them grief if they are in paradise?" he said "Oh Abu Ishaq, this I swear by God is for us especially as for his word "races ahead (of all) in good deeds" so it is Ali ibn Talib, and Hassan and Hussain (peace be upon them) and the witness from us Ahlulbayt, and the dominant towards himself is in what is in the people and he is forgiven and for the one in the middle course so he is the fasts the days and rose in the night"

 

On the authority of Salman, may God be pleased with him, on the authority of the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family, in a speech he mentioned in Ali, so he mentioned Salman to Ali, and he said: By God, Salman, he told me what he told you, then he said: O Ali, by God, I heard a voice from the Most Merciful. Please, until I saw the heavens passing by their people, to the extent that the angels would seek me from fearing what is running [B, A: running] through the heavens from the past, and it is the saying of God Almighty: He was forbearing and forgiving.” Then it remained until that day in honor of Your command, until the angels heard a voice from the Most Merciful: Peace be upon you [O.A.] My servants, for one of My servants I cast my love upon, and honored him with my obedience, and chose him with my dignity. The angels said: {Praise be to God, who has removed our grief.} Who is more honorable to God than you, and by God, Muhammad [may God bless him and his family and grant them peace]. R] and all his family [peace be upon them. t] to honorable and promising honorable people who brag about the people of heaven thanks to you, Muhammad says: Praise be to God who has accomplished for me [R:

By God, Ali, your Shiites are given permission to enter every Friday, and they look at you from their homes on Friday as the people of the world look at the star in the sky, and you are in the highest levels in a room above which no one of his creation is above him and God [B: God’s creation and] What has reached [r: received] anyone but you.

Then the Commander of the Faithful said: By God, I am the most prominent of the land in which you reside. By God, if you lost me, I would have passed by its people in a way [r: more] that will never return them to it, God is God, O people, beware of you and consider the matter of God and peace be upon the believers [And praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds. Father].

 

From salman (r) from the Nabi (s) there words about Ali (a) Salman reminded Ali (a) about so he said: I swear by God oh Salman I he told me what he told you then said: so he said O Ali, I swear by God I had heard a voice from the Rahman (The Compassionate) that I had not heard the like of it a portion of what is reminded of your superiority till I saw the skies shake about with it's residents and saw the Angels seeking from me from fear of what flows from the skies from the affairs and God words mighty is his rememberance "Indeed God keeps the skies and earth from breaking apart and if breaks there is no one to stop it breaking from after him verily he is forbearing forgiving" so it has not broken in magnification to your authority till I heard the Angels voices from the Rahman "enter my servants"you are a servant from the servants I bestowed upon my love and honored him by your obedience and chosen by my honor, so the Angels said "All praise to God that took away sadness from us" so who is more honorable regarding God than you? " "I wear by God indeed Mohammad (s) and all his Ahlulbayt (a) all together are honored by an honor that makes all the people of the sky low (in comparison) by your superiority, Mohammad (s) says "The Praise is to God that gave me the promise with my brother and my choice and my specification from the creation of God and by God I did not stand by a creation that has portion of what I saw and for Mohammad belongs an intermediation from light "The praise belongs to God who made well are the place of permanence from his grace there will not touch us any hardship nor touch us any fatigue” I swear by God oh Ali your followers will be permitted to regarding you entrance every Friday and they will look towards you from their place on Friday just as the people of the world look at the stars in the sky, and you are in the highest of the Illiyin which in a place known which no one is higher then you fromt he creation of God and on one will it attain other then you (plural ie. Ahlulbayt). Then Amir of believers said: By God I will stabilize the earth with that you seek tranquility and the earth would not cease from being stable as long as I am on it, so if there is no need of me with God's creation, God will raise me to towards himself and I wear by God if you had not came by me,an event would have passed to it's people a passing they would not be able to return it ever, Oh People upon you is the looking towards God's Authority/Affair and peace be upon the believers and all praise is to God Lord of the Worlds.

 

The hadith supports our view that "oppressive towards themselves" refers to "servants" as the hadiths are clear that it's among the people, and what supports that from Quran is how astafa is used and context, but also the verse before emphasizes "God with respect to his servants is seeing aware".

The context is clear for me God chosen those who race ahead of all in good deeds from his servants, and so from God's servants what is left over is who is oppressive towards himself and who is on middle-course. The hadiths show the middle course, they fast during the day and are up during the night which shows high piety.

The first hadith also supports the meaning of Shahr being a luminary and the illumination is his sword. The last hadith shows the prayer at the end is by Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and so this supports the decided being especially them.

God is saying he HAS inherited the Quran to chosen ones from his servants and so from his servants are (1) Oppressive to himself (in which some can be forgiven) (2) middle course (Mutaqeen) (3) the one who races ( ahead of all) in good deeds, so the best of humans is the last category and obviously he has chosen from them.

See verse 35:31 as it ends in emphasis God with respect to his servants is aware of seeing. I think the context of that verse that shows it's misunderstand that the oppressive towards themselves are from among the chosen. The emphasis "and God with respect to his servants is aware of seeing. Then we inherited the book to those we chose from our servants so of them...." gives context that "them" refers to servants and not the chosen ones. The implication is that the decided ones are from the last category, the ones who race ahead of all in good deeds which the Zaidi hadiths confirm is about Ali (a), Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) and Mohammad (s) and Fatima (a).

Another interesting point is that Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (A) says "and the witness from us Ahlulbayt" which signifies the witness of the time that the Quran talks about through out the person ahead of in good deeds of the time and Imam Baqir ( a) describes it as high spiritual station to get your sins forgiven by such a person etc.

Can you please quote the refferance of these hadiths. 

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altafsir.com

Stop you’re destroying the thread with all the blocks of text.

We can agree in a verses interpretation, but it is the application that differs. 

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altafsir.com

Thanks for your effort brother. A wonderful website. I'll need to verify the Zaidi tafsir.

So far I haven't read everything you have posted. But your post I have read, nothing supports your cred 

The tafsir say 1 thing then your long explanation says something else.

But Allahamdullilah everyone are free to read the tafsir.

Maybe minimise your own interpretation 

that would be useful. As if the tafsir are clear you don't need to say much.

Also can you start a new thread for it to not derail this thread with block of text.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Zaidism said:

It is very sad to say the least, the level of straw man arguments and red-herring fallacies you all threw at us, because you don't have a response to the flaws in your belief of a 12th Imam. 

1. I have not received any evidence for your claim of imamate of Zayd shaheed from the verses of quran that the people can choose their imam?

2. If there is no verse of quran that mentions that the people can choose an imam then how Zayd shaheed  was chosen  as imam?

3.  The verse of quran states that :

 قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِي

Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful (27:64)

Of course evidence from the verses of quran for your claims are awaited.

4.  This is an open forum and keep in mind brother your thoughts may also be challenged in the same way as you are trying to challenge the 12ver view.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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your deviant creed

 When you rumored it with your tongues,
and spoke with your mouths what you had no
knowledge of, and you considered it trivial;
but according to Allah, it is serious. {24:15}

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And if you don't respond to the points I make, I might as well just keep posting hadiths from Zaidi sources from the Prophet (a) and our Imams (a) about the concept of Ahlulbayt (a) and leadership and let me people decide which version of Ahlulbayt (a) it supports.

No matter how hard you try with your semantics and mystical talk, you'll never be able to prove the guidance of the 12th Imam as an existing reality, and no matter how many (incorrect) quid pro quo 'arguments' you throw, you realize that it is all an evasion from the essential points I am making. As for the Hadiths you are posting in respect to a Tafsir of Quran, only Tafsir Ghareeb Al-Quran is an authoritative work you can quote, otherwise refer to this link of our Quranic Tafaseer and try again, or are you going to now force me to accept any random book you bring from the internet as authoritative? 

https://alziydiayemen.wordpress.com/category/interpretation-and-science-of-the-Quran-general/ 

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They have no proofs respond nor to proofs shown. They just want to deceive themselves and reach a greatness they will never reach by such deceptive means.

I am losing track of the number of Ad-Hominem attacks you've used, instead of tallying, I'll just add it to your list of fallacies. I am interested in how many you'll be using. 

So far we have:

  • Ad Hominem
  • Non Sequitor
  • Strawman
  • Red-Herring
  • Slippery Slope
  • Tu Quoque
  • Ambiguity 
  • Appeal to emotion
  • The Texas Sharpshooter 
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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

I have not received any evidence for your claim of imamate of Zayd shaheed from the verses of quran that the people can choose their imam?

 

It isn't choosing their Imam, it is knowing who has the best qualities for leadership to lead. For example, when comparing Imam Ali to Umar/AbuBakr one can clearly see the immense gap between them, i.e Imam Ali being most knowledgeable, brave, steadfast, fit to rule, etc.

Here are the Quranic verses:

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِّنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ 
 

From your works a chain that has the reliable narrator Abu Hamza:

حدثنا أبو عبد الله الحسين بن يحيى البجلي، قال: حدثنا أبي، قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة موسى بن يوسف الكوفي، قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن يحيى، عن يعقوب بن يحيى عن أبي حفص، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، قال:

كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر عليه السلام إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له: يا ابن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما: اسألا عما جئتما.

قالا: أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل: " ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا [من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير] " إلى آخر الآيتين.

قال: نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت: بأبي أنت وأمي فمن الظالم لنفسه؟

قال: من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

فقلت: من المقتصد منكم؟

قال: العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين.

فقلت: فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال: من دعا والله إلى سبيل ربه، و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر، ولم يكن للمضلين عضدا، ولا للخائنين خصيما، ولم يرض بحكم الفاسقين إلا من خاف على نفسه ودينه ولم يجد أعوانا.

Quranic Verse to support: و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر

لَّا يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُولِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ ۚ فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً ۚ وَكُلًّا وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَفَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

Furthermore, two more chains with Abu Hamza, one from Al-Sudooq and one from the Hanafi Al-Hakm Al'Hiskani:

يروي الحاكم الحسكاني الحنفي ، بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن علي بن الحسين ، قال : إني لجالس عنده إذ جاءه رجلان من أهل العراق فقالا : يا ابن رسول الله جئناك [ كي ] تخبرنا عن آيات من القرآن . فقال : و ما هي ؟ قالا: قول الله تعالى : ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا فقال : يا أهل العراق و أيش يقولون ؟ قالا : يقولون : إنها نزلت في أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم‏) فقال : علي بن الحسين : أمة محمد كلهم إذا في الجنة ! ! قال : …، فقلت : و المقتصد؟ قال : العابد لله في بيته حتى يأتيه اليقين ، فقلت : السابق بالخيرات ؟ قال : مَنْ شَهَرَ سَيفَه ودَعَا إلى سَبيلِ رَبّه)) [ شواهد التنزيل:2/157]

يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين .

قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]
 

Do these verses from the Quran and the 3 Hadiths with reliable chains from Abu Hamza not prove Zaydi Imamate?! Do these not go against the belief in Taqiyyah? 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

It isn't choosing their Imam, it is knowing who has the best qualities for leadership to lead. For example, when comparing Imam Ali to Umar/AbuBakr one can clearly see the immense gap between them, i.e Imam Ali being most knowledgeable, brave, steadfast, fit to rule, etc.

Here are the Quranic verses:

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِّنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ 
 

The verse quoted by yourslef does not mention in any manner about the principle that the people can choose imams.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not chosen by the people but the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) announced him an imam on many occasions in his life and final declaration comes at ghadeer that we both beleieve.

The pirnciple of selection of chosen representaives inclduing  leaders / imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  has been described in many verses of quran. 

Edited by Muslim2010
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And we say regarding Imam Ali (a) "peace be upon you o God's name he is pleased with" in a Ziyarah.

Our Imams (a) condemned everyone not on the creed of Twelve Imams (a) and believing in them, because the matter is actually very clear in the Quran and there is no reason for confusion.

I love all my believing brothers and sisters and thank you for your kind words.

I again apprecite your words of truth.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The verse quoted by yourslef does not mention in any manner for the principle that the people can choose imams.

The people can't 'choose' the Imams. I told you it is whoever is more fit for the role, you can clearly infer that based on who carries the greater qualities of leadership from the Ahlulbayt.

Edited by Zaidism
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1 minute ago, Zaidism said:

The people can't 'choose' the Imams. I told you it is whoever is more fit for the role, you can clearly infer that based on who carries the greater qualities of leadership from the Ahlulbayt.

The answer quoted by yourslef is agaisnt your pricniple of selection of Zayd shaheed as Imam and it also stands agaisnt the defined and clear verses that mention leaders / imams are chsoen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the gudance of the people.  No doubt the people cannot chose imam, whether he is abubakr, umar or uthman or on the same peiciple Zayd Shaheed is. All such seelction is rejcted being contradcitory to the verses of quran.

wasalam

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Salam

They have no proofs respond nor to proofs shown. They just want to deceive themselves and reach a greatness they will never reach by such deceptive means.

I already know it. You may like to see some selection that i have already presnetd in SC about 12 imams:

wasalam

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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

The answer quoted by yourslef is agaisnt your pricniple of selection of Zayd shaheed as Imam and it also stands agaisnt the defined and clear verses that mention leaders / imams are chsoen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the gudance of the people.  No doubt the people cannot chose imam, whether he is abubakr, umar or uthman or on the same peiciple Zayd Shaheed is. All such seelction is rejcted being contradcitory to the verses of quran.

wasalam

You are misunderstanding.

The Ahlulbayt are chosen as leaders for the Ummah, hence the verses/hadiths in their respect. In the same sense Banu Israil was chosen and favored over the rest of mankind - at a point in time. Therefore, when it comes to Imamate only someone from the Ahlulbayt i.e progeny of Imam Hassan/Hussein, can become an Imam if he has the born/earned qualities. Those qualities have already been shared/explained on two threads. Furthermore, you need to demonstrate this contradiction.

5 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

imams are chsoen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the gudance of the people. 

Where is the guidance of the 12th Imam

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The Ahlulbayt are chosen as leaders for the Ummah, hence the verses/hadiths in their respect. In the same sense Banu Israil was chosen and favored over the rest of mankind - at a point in time. Therefore, when it comes to Imamate only someone from the Ahlulbayt i.e progeny of Imam Hassan/Hussein, can become an Imam if he has the born/earned qualities. Those qualities have already been shared/explained on two threads. Furthermore, you need to demonstrate this contradiction.

Your conejtures in the absnece of a verses of quran for defining the priciple  of slection of imams by the people is rejcted whatver you try to twist the menaing by rotating words.

Edited by Muslim2010
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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Your conejtures in the absnece of a verses of quran for defining the pricpile of slection of iamsm by the people is rejcted whatwver you try to twist the menaing by roateting words.

That is fine, I have presented clear verses and Hadiths from your works to clearly highlight Zaydi Imamate. You, however, did not respond to my question that everyone in this thread has evaded.

Where is the guidance of the 12th Imam? This is kind of like asking Christians where did Jesus say I am god worship me lol.

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7 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Where is the guidance of the 12th Imam

Wheer is the gduaince of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam jafar Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

Where is the guidance of imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام)?

i am quoting as we both agree to their imammat before we come to the 12 imam.

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Wheer is the gduaince of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?

Where is the gudiance of Imam jafar Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

Where is the guidance of imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام)?

i am quoting as we both agree to their imammat before we come to the 12 imam.

The Qur'an and their traditions

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The Qur'an and their traditions

There are three sources of guidance we get truth from:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet, Quran and imams.

Do you see any missing in it? Does the same not apply to all imams? 

What is your evidcne if you consider otherwise?

Edited by Muslim2010
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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Do you see any missing in it?

So you affirm my premise that the 12th Imam isn't giving any guidance and he is only occupying a relative existence in the Imammi framework, so as to fill their gap in Imamate?

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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

There are three sources of guidance we get truth:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet, Quran and imams.

Do you see any missing in it?

Brother please make some clear points for the debate.

Lets try start a fresh.

Let's agree on a topic 

Then some conditions.

Then you and brother Zaidism can have a useful debate. I and hopefully others can observe and learn something.

 

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3 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

So you affirm my premise that the 12th Imam isn't giving any guidance and he is only occupying a relative existence in the Imammi framework, so as to fill their gap in Imamate?

Where is the evidcne from any text for your conjectures? 

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Where is the evidcne from any text for your conjectures? 

That's not how it works, the onus is on you to bring evidence to support your doctrine of Imamate in which every Imam is to give guidance. 

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

We are back at the same stage i requote and present:

No we are not, this isn't a tit for tat, you need to show me the guidance of the 12th Imam irrespective of whether my answers for Zaydi Imamate suffice for you or not. Otherwise, you are committing a logical fallacy.

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

قال: نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت: بأبي أنت وأمي فمن الظالم لنفسه؟

قال: من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

فقلت: من المقتصد منكم؟

قال: العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين.

فقلت: فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال: من دعا والله إلى سبيل ربه، و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر، ولم يكن للمضلين عضدا، ولا للخائنين خصيما، ولم يرض بحكم الفاسقين إلا من خاف على نفسه ودينه ولم يجد أعوانا.

Brother!!

"Zalimun le nafseh" already introducing person as "zalim" and as per your and our understanding, Imamate will not reach to this category. (لا ينال عهدي الظالمين)

Second category "Muqtasid" are the ones who are lacking certainty, if certainty here means death, that too makes him a common muslim who abides by the laws & commands of his Lord. 

Third category "Sabiqun bil khayrate be ithnillah" are the Imams. 

Imams are mentioned as "khyra ummatin" (best of the nation):

كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ

3:110

So Imam cannot be zalimun le nafseh, nor he be muqtasid, he must be "sabiqun bil khyraat" and that is by the command (اذن) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Now this verse (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا) goes straight against your school of thought. 

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7 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

That's not how it works, the onus is on you to bring evidence to support your doctrine of Imamate in which every Imam is to give guidance. 

[32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Musa (عليه السلام) left the following tools of guidance for his people:

  1. The Book of God
  2. Imams who were:
  • Appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Providing guidance via the edicts of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Patient
  • Definite about the Word of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Do you not beleieve in the verse of quran?

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Brother!!

"Zalimun le nafseh" already introducing person as "zalim" and as per your and our understanding, Imamate will not reach to this category. (لا ينال عهدي الظالمين)

Second category "Muqtasid" are the ones who are lacking certainty, if certainty here means death, that too makes him a common muslim who abides by the laws & commands of his Lord. 

Third category "Sabiqun bil khayrate be ithnillah" are the Imams. 

Imams are mentioned as "khyra ummatin" (best of the nation):

كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ

3:110

So Imam cannot be zalimun le nafseh, nor he be muqtasid, he must be "sabiqun bil khyraat" and that is by the command (اذن) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Now this verse (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا) goes straight against your school of thought. 

Did you miss the part where Imam Baqir refers to each category as: منا أهل البيت

 من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

 

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

[32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Musa (عليه السلام) left the following tools of guidance for his people:

  1. The Book of God
  2. Imams who were:
  • Appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Providing guidance via the edicts of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
  • Patient
  • Definite about the Word of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Do you not beleieve in the verse of quran?

Excellent, so a particular designation and a general designation.

Musa, particular.

Banu Israil, general. 

47. O Children of Israel! Remember My favor
which I bestowed upon you, and I have favored you over all nations.

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