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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate Challenge)

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When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Quran said he choose Bani-Isreal, it isn't general at all and its clear for everyone to realize that it means Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choose Ambiya from Bani Isreal because not whole Bani_isreal were Prophets. That's what a zaidi mentioned above that in Quran chosen has also been used in general sense which doesn't make any sense at all.

 

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On 6/20/2021 at 1:29 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Salams. Personally i think Zaidis should first stick to one concept of Imamate. They basically take 12ver concept for first three Imams, then they switch over to believing in fallible Imams and these two are two different concepts and each nullifies the other.

Our concept of Imamat is very consistent it's a general designation relayed by Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith.

Any specific designation must be from the Prophet and therefore we require evidence.

The Ahlulbayt agree on this many scholars from Hassan and Hussain who were in close contact especially in early generations in Medina. Who include your Imams as well. With early books and opinions from this early gebneration of Ahlulbayt.

On the hand mist you evidence cones post occultation. There is a huge disconnect from Ahlulbayt.

It's not about having a system formulated then finding anything evidence weak or strong to form  a fundamental. The. Saying look how complete our theory is 

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Its easy to say 12 Imam isn't fulfilling his role.

And hard to stand upon this claim because we can further discuss if Allah is fulfilling his role or not? if prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) fulfilled his role or not?

Now don't go ahead and shout at me or get emotional, its just a counter question.

If 12th Imam is responsible for misguidance of people after his disappearance, then isn't Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) responsible for apostasy of majority of companions after his death?

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On 6/20/2021 at 1:32 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

. If not infallible, you don't need to have a hadith declaring his imamate.

 

That makes no sense if he didn't call the people to follow him then how would they know. What's infallibility got to do with it ?

We are not mind readers and we don't follow silent leaders who give no orders.

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On 6/20/2021 at 1:40 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

Our concept of Imamat is very consistent it's a general designation relayed by Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith.

Prove it is a general designation.

On 6/20/2021 at 1:40 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

The Ahlulbayt agree on this many scholars from Hassan and Hussain who were in close contact especially in early generations in Medina. Who include your Imams as well. With early books and opinions from this early gebneration of Ahlulbayt.

you are missing one thing. If my defination of ahlebait isn't hujjah for you, your defination of ahlbait isn't hujjah for me as well so you can't make this argument against me.

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1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

And hard to stand upon this claim because we can further discuss if Allah is fulfilling his role or not? if prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) fulfilled his role or not?

 

Yes because the role is specified in Qur'an, and the Prophet  role is addressed, and history testifies to the Prohets role. 

What he the 12th Imam role ?

And what is the evidence of fulfillment ?

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

so anyone who calls people to his imamate is an Imam? 

If they full the conditions from Allah 

Conditions are easily found in Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith.

As well as a few being simple reasoning eg. an the open call.

If you go to the other thread brother Zaidism as explained it in more detail.

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1 minute ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Yes because the role is specified in Qur'an, and the Prophet  role is addressed, and history testifies to the Prohets role. 

What he the 12th Imam role ?

And what is the evidence of fulfillment ?

Question was about fullfillment of role not what the role of Allah or prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was.

so i counter questioned, did Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) fullfill their roles?

Because the aregument you'll use to prove 12th Imam never fullfilled his role,

i would use it to prove Allah or prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't fullfill their roles either.

And if i am able to prove it, it would be enough for invalidity of your argument against our 12 th Imam (عليه السلام)

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6 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

you are missing one thing. If my defination of ahlebait isn't hujjah for you, your defination of ahlbait isn't hujjah for me as well so you can't make this argument against me.

That why we need to prove our position from Qur'an (clear verses not requiring interpretation from our own scholars)

And Mutawatir hadith we can apply a standard and definition then proceed.

Its how academic discourse works 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

That why we need to prove our position from Qur'an (clear verses not requiring interpretation from our own scholars)

 

Defination of Ahlebait differs at different places. At some places, wives of Prophet (عليه السلام) were included in Ahlebait and in case of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), ayahs have seperate revelation and Umme Salamah (عليه السلام) was excluded by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from Ahlebait so in the end you stick to hadith in your own books to  believe in it.

I think you should now start proving general designation of Imamah from Quran so we can read it out and ponder upon it

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Bother please familerise your self with our position. Either using the question thread or available material.

Then we can agree on a topic

agree the conditions

And have a useful academic debate on this thread Inshallah.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

We both (12ver & Zaydi) believe in the Immamate of imam Ali, Imam hassan and Imam Husain (عليه السلام) and we consider  them appointed as Imam by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The reference of verses 33:33 & 5:55 is also mentioned.

Thus the simple question arises that how Abu bakr was made as caliph / imam by the people (sunni belief) instead by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointment? Similarly the matter remains still unanswered on similar lines (alike sunni belief) how Zayd shaheed was appointed as imam (Zaydi belief) 

You are true in this understanding. and i also agree to it.

wasalam

 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Your problem is, you people say first three are infallible. Ok Accepted!

Then say Zaid is Imam but you don't claim infallibility for him right? If i am wrong correct me. If not infallible, you don't need to have a hadith declaring his imamate.

Means Allah left people on their own after Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) passed away.

Thats similar to AhleSunnah.

We are in agreement for 12 imams.

It also confirms that concept of Zayd shaheed as imam is similar to that of sunni belief. No one has doubt about it.

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We are not mind readers and we don't follow silent leaders who give no orders.

We both believe in immamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but as per sunni beleif it is mentioned why he did not raise the sword for taking his rights? Was he not a silent leader for that period yet you and 12ver believe in him as imam, but you like to consider the imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) till 12th imam as silent leader, is it not a clear contradiction that i see in your thoughts?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think you should now start proving general designation of Imamah from Quran so we can read it out and ponder upon it

Brother I simply ask the Zaydis brothers  to mention a verse of quran please that an imam can be chosen by the people for their guidance instead of an appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). before we can give any attention to the selection of Zayd shaheed as imam (for their this particular view).

Edited by Muslim2010
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Quote

have found from 12er (not all but I used to be the same) that it's undebatable for the following:

1)due to statements like yours quoted above

 

Perhaps you think it is within your domain to "analyze" whether an Imam is fulfilling his role or not. 

Analyze the promises & roles fulfilled by God & His Apostle in the following verses:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

9:33

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

61:9

Anyway, I knew where this discussion would end from the beginning. Nice to have dialogues with you brother. 

If you too found any sort of arrogance in my tone or style, pardon me please, that is not my intention nor my style.

Wassalam!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cool said:

Analyze the promises & roles fulfilled by God & His Apostle in the following verses:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

9:33

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

61:9

I like to add the following links for the conclusion from my side:

 

 

The above discussions  conducted at the SC confirm that Religion of Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) requires to follow the 12 caliphs / imams / leaders after the prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his purified progeny. The names of 12 imams have been clearly defined in the authentic hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Edited by Muslim2010
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8 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Nope...both Nizari and Musta‘lī Ismāʿīlīyah report similar-style narrations...

I'd be interested to see these narrations.

As I was specifically reffering to the belief Imam have knowledge of everything or as in the hadith they gave access to anything they ask.

In all except maybe Salafi there is the possibility of those close to Allah getting inspiration.

Either way this topic is a matter of semantics and details of the knowledge.

It's not something to base your fundamental on and you can be a 12er or Zadi across a broad understanding of knowledge of unseen.

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

We both believe in immamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but as per sunni beleif it is mentioned why he did not raise the sword for taking his rights? Was he not a silent leader for that period yet you and 12ver believe in him as imam, but you like to consider the imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) till 12th imam as silent leader, is it not a clear contradiction that i see in your thoughts?

Imam Ali was not a silent leader in words or actions. Look at his speeches in Nahjul balagah. He openly led the people.

What is the role of the 12th Imam and how does he fulfill it ?

Also please provide some evidence after you have answered the above questions.

 

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 imam can be chosen by the people 

Imam is not chosen. We obey an open call to those who full Allah covenant.

Every example of leader ship in Qur'an outside of Prophethood is conditional.

I ask you the same please provide Imamat is restricted to your specific 12 through Qur'an or mutawatir hadith. If not then even hadith by your own standards (usooli) where all 12 Imams are named.

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3 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Imam Ali was not a silent leader in words or actions. Look at his speeches in Nahjul balagah. He openly led the people.

What is the role of the 12th Imam and how does he fulfill it ?

Also please provide some evidence after you have answered the above questions.

Thansk for accpeting the role of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) whether he took out the sword or keep quite like Imam hassan (عليه السلام). 12vers have the same charateristcis for all the iamsm out of 12.

I may answer your question but before i like to get some evidence of your claim for Zyad shaheed as imam, so I simply ask the Zaydis brothers  to mention a verse of quran please that an imam can be chosen by the people for their guidance instead of an appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). before we can give any attention to the selection of Zayd shaheed as imam (for their this particular view).

We may contiue the discussion  after the evidnce i receive. 

wasalam

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There were some who thought that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not playing his role as Imam. They refused his command to fight with the enemy and threaten to kill Ali (عليه السلام) if he do not give orders to Malik to come back. 

What was their point? They thought that Ali (عليه السلام) was commanding them to fight with Quran or with those who want arbitration and don't want to fight anymore.

The same happen with Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), his own fellow attacked on him and injured him. 

A better way is to analyze our role in obeying the Imam. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I ask you the same please provide Imamat is restricted to your specific 12 through Qur'an or mutawatir hadith. If not then even hadith by your own standards (usooli) where all 12 Imams are named.

Reviving Al-Islaam: 12 Imaams Mentioned by Name Explicitly in a SaHeeH Hadeeth (revivingalislam.com)

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7 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thansk for accpeting the role of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) whether he took out the sword or keep quite like Imam hassan (عليه السلام). 12vers have the same charateristcis for all the iamsm out of 12.

I may answer your question but before i like to get some evidence of your claim for Zyad shaheed as imam, so I simply ask the Zaydis brothers  to mention a verse of quran please that an imam can be chosen by the people for their guidance instead of an appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). before we can give any attention to the selection of Zayd shaheed as imam (for their this particular view).

We may contiue the discussion  after the evidnce i receive. 

wasalam

People don't choose the Imam so I can't answer your question.

So you can proceed to answer my question.

Btw I'm more then happy to proove Zaidi concept Imamat from Qur'an.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

People don't choose the Imam so I can't answer your question.

Thanks for information, then the simple question is that if the people cannot choose imam  then how Zayd shaheed was chsoen as Imam by the people?

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for information, then the simple question is that if the people cannot choose imam  then how Zayd shaheed was chsoen as Imam by the people?

I have no idea. Which people are you referring to ? And what was their definition and criteria to choose ?

and why are we even talking about this group who choose ?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I may answer your question but before i like to get some evidence of your claim for Zyad shaheed as imam, so I simply ask the Zaydis brothers  to mention a verse of quran please that an imam can be chosen by the people for their guidance instead of an appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). before we can give any attention to the selection of Zayd shaheed as imam (for their this particular view).

We may contiue the discussion  after the evidnce i receive. 

1. There is no verse of quran that people can choose imam instead of appoinment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

2. 

9 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for information, then the simple question is that if the people cannot choose imam  then how Zayd shaheed was chsoen as Imam by the people?

There is no logic from Zaydis how Zayd shaheed was chosen as imam, by the people. except it forms against the verses of quran that mention that imams are chosen reprsenatives by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

6 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I have no idea. Which people are you referring to ? And what was their definition and criteria to choose ? and why are we even talking about this group who choose ?

Thus the false sunni like beleif  of Zaydis for the iammate of Zayd shaheed is rejcted. 

wasalam 

 

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

Thus the false sunni like beleif  of Zaydis for the iammate of Zayd shaheed is rejcted. 

wasalam 

 

Are you imposing a concept of Imamat on Zaidi then rejecting that concept and disproving it :grin:

#1  Brother why do you believe the moon is a pyramid shape.

#2 I dont

#1 ahhh so you are admitting your concept of a pyramid moon is false 

#2 ......what ?

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Are you imposing a concept of Imamat on Zaidi then rejecting that concept and disproving it :grin:

I am mentioning the result of cocnclusion as the zaydis brothers have failed to bring the evidences aksed in support of their man made caliphate / immamate of Zayd shaheed.  :clap:

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cool said:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

9:33

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

61:9

Anyway, I knew where this discussion would end from the beginning. Nice to have dialogues with you brother. 

As there are no evidences in the light of verses of quran and hadith to justify the sunni like claim of immamate of Zayd shaheed the 12vers find no reason to give attention even for a second for such thoughts and views of zaydis.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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10 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Salams. Personally i think Zaidis should first stick to one concept of Imamate. They basically take 12ver concept for first three Imams, then they switch over to believing in fallible Imams and these two are two different concepts and each nullifies the other.

This is a misunderstanding

10 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Your problem is, you people say first three are infallible. Ok Accepted!

Then say Zaid is Imam but you don't claim infallibility for him right? If i am wrong correct me. If not infallible, you don't need to have a hadith declaring his imamate.

Means Allah left people on their own after Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) passed away.

Thats similar to AhleSunnah.

Imamate is for anyone from the sons of Al-Hassan or Hussein, you can read the conditions of becoming an Imam on the thread I posted here titled 'questions for Zaidi beliefs' 

The first 3 Imams have the distinction of Ayat Al-Tatheer, hence their infallibility (in judgement)

Regarding those after Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) there is no nas, as we maintain. Therefore, it is the general designation and I will allow Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام)) to explain the Quranic verse from the chain of Al-Sadooq.

Quote

 حدثنا أبو عبد الله الحسين بن يحيى البجلي، قال: حدثنا أبي، قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة موسى بن يوسف الكوفي، قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن يحيى، عن يعقوب بن يحيى عن أبي حفص، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، قال:

كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر عليه السلام إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له: يا ابن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما: اسألا عما جئتما.

قالا: أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل: " ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا [من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير] " إلى آخر الآيتين.

قال: نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت: بأبي أنت وأمي فمن الظالم لنفسه؟

قال: من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

فقلت: من المقتصد منكم؟

قال: العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين.

فقلت: فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟ قال: من دعا والله إلى سبيل ربه، و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر، ولم يكن للمضلين عضدا، ولا للخائنين خصيما، ولم يرض بحكم الفاسقين إلا من خاف على نفسه ودينه ولم يجد أعوانا.

 This narration from Al-Sadooq fundamentally proves Zaydi Imamate through the blessed tongue of Al-Baqir.

Source: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1148_معاني-الأخبار-الشيخ-الصدوق/الصفحة_199
 

11 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Quran said he choose Bani-Isreal, it isn't general at all and its clear for everyone to realize that it means Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choose Ambiya from Bani Isreal because not whole Bani_isreal were Prophets. That's what a zaidi mentioned above that in Quran chosen has also been used in general sense which doesn't make any sense at all.

Akhi, I hope that you can reconsider your position after objectively reading the Quran. I am shocked that anyone would claim the Quran isn't referring to Banu Israil in general.

40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill
your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge
to you, and fear Me.
41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming
what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations
for a small price; and be conscious of Me.

42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and
do not conceal the truth while you know.
43. And attend to your prayers, and practice
regular charity, and kneel with those who
kneel.
44. Do you command people to virtuous conduct, and forget yourselves, even though you
read the Scripture? Do you not understand?

45. And seek help through patience and
prayer. But it is difficult, except for the devout.
46. Those who know that they will meet their
Lord, and that to Him they will return.
47. O Children of Israel! Remember My favor
which I bestowed upon you, and I that favored you over all nations.
48. And beware of a Day when no soul will
avail another in the least, nor will any intercession be accepted on its behalf, nor will any
ransom be taken from it, nor will they be
helped.
49. And recall that We delivered you from the
people of Pharaoh.
They inflicted on you terrible persecution, killing your sons and sparing your women. Therein was a tremendous
trial from your Lord.

50. And recall that We parted the sea for you,
so We saved you, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh as you looked on.
51. And recall that We appointed for Moses
forty nights. Then you took to worshiping the
calf after him
, and you turned wicked.
 

So it is unequivocal the being favored of all nations at the time of Moses was given to Banu israel, why do you have a problem for it being given to the sons of Muhammad?

You see now the consistency of Zaidiyyah? A particular designation Moses/Harun, a general designation Banu Israel (over the nations)

And now a particular designation [33:33/5:55] The Prophet and the members of the cloak, as well as a general designation the sons of Fatema from whoever enjoins good and forbids evil, as Imam Baqir explained.

! مَا لَكُمْ كَيْفَ تَحْكُمُونَ

 

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5 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

I am mentioning the result of cocnclusion as the zaydis brothers have failed to bring the evidences aksed in support of their man made caliphate / immamate of Zayd shaheed.  :clap:

It is very sad to say the least, the level of straw man arguments and red-herring fallacies you all threw at us, because you don't have a response to the flaws in your belief of a 12th Imam. If you are genuine start another thread, challenge Zaydi Imamate and I promise you, I will prove Zaydi Imamate using only Quran and your works. You all ruined this thread unfortunately and I won't make the mistake of allowing your heckling bury the distinct points/discussions that are being had. Therefore, make a thread that is solely focused on Zaydi Imamate and lets see. 

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11 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Its easy to say 12 Imam isn't fulfilling his role.

And hard to stand upon this claim because we can further discuss if Allah is fulfilling his role or not? if prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) fulfilled his role or not?

Now don't go ahead and shout at me or get emotional, its just a counter question.

If 12th Imam is responsible for misguidance of people after his disappearance, then isn't Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) responsible for apostasy of majority of companions after his death?

You need to read things in context of this Hadith:

Source: الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

Refer to my OP, as for the point you make about those being misguided after the Prophet, you're actually responding to your own doctrine which posits a need for a guide in every time/era. 

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7 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I was specifically reffering to the belief Imam have knowledge of everything

Let's not regress...we have already proven that Shakyh al-Mufid and numerous authentic hadith say that the Imams (a) don't know everything...we concern ourselves with reliable edicts and source material...not fanciful ideas of some laypeople...laypeople say a lot of nonsensical things...I've only met one or two Twelvers in my life that say these type of things BTW

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