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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate Challenge)

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

I myself is a Zaidi portal. Direct descendent of Zayd Shaheed. And I am a twelver shia. 

Why you are avoiding to answer my question? You want to debate on concept of Imamate in general, yet avoiding to share your understanding of Imamate in your own words?

He has given his clear definition of Zaidi Imamat. You are free to try refute it as as well adress the points made against the concept of your 12th Imam.

Trying to distract from a debate with leading questions won't benefit anyone.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Let me expend it a bit, to let you know why I am asking what you understand Imamate actually is. 

Your given portal mentions this on Imamate:

What Imamate is? Nothing is mentioned.

It's talk about Imam Ali his qualities and covers leadership. How is that nothing ?

Would you prefer an article about children becoming Imams and beams of light giving them all knowledge ?

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7 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

that's the example of 2 criminals. 

I meant to highlight the two different approaches 

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Quote

maybe you can address the points I've repeated about 13:7.  Maybe you too will pretend there is no context of the word "guide" within the verse with the "sign" asked for,  and through out Quran, let's see if you have a response.

Akhi, for the love of the Ahlulbayt. I told you we believe that this verse refers to the Ahlulbayt! The issue is our understanding of the Ahlulbayt, which we are discussing. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Akhi, for the love of the Ahlulbayt. I told you we believe that this verse refers to the Ahlulbayt! The issue is our understanding of the Ahlulbayt, which we are discussing. 

It literally supports the argument which I am making, the verse is referring to guidance for every قوم you agree that the guide is from the Ahlulbayt, I am sharing with you the contradictions and implications of your understanding and presuppositions. The non-existence of the guidance of the 12th imam, whereas a consistent and clear guidance from the Zaydiyyah. 

Before we make this a lesson on Zaydi Imamate, the onus on you - the claimant - who is asserting that this verse means the guide can be only from Ahlulbayt, in your case now the 12th imam, is to share with us said guidance. 

Or, concur to my initial premise, which is the 12th imam only occupies a relative existence which is only to fill the gap in twelver Imamate. 

Edited by Zaidism
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Would you prefer an article about children becoming Imams and beams of light giving them all knowledge ?

If you don't believe in any knowledge being mystically imparted then you're in trouble...you'll occasionally run into brick walls...indeed, the true position lies in-between what our Ẓāhirī brothers (i.e. Zaydiyyah) say and what some of us (i.e. Twelvers) with overactive imaginations believe...Imam as-Sadiq (a), when asked, ‘Does the Imam know the Unseen?’ replied, ‘No, but whenever he wishes to know something, Allah makes him know it.'....And, when a man from Persia asked him (Imam al-Kadhim), ‘Do you know the Unseen?’, he replied, ‘Knowledge is expounded for us so we know it, and it can be taken away from us so we do not know.’ And he said, ‘Allah, Mighty and Exalted, entrusted His secret to Gabriel...and Gabriel entrusted it to Muhammad...and Muhammad entrusted it to those whom Allah willed.’ 

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Would you prefer an article about children becoming Imams and beams of light giving them all knowledge ?

Also, what do you do with the famous hadith (narrated in Sunni & Shi'i books alike with differing versions) in which the Prophet (s) whispered something into Ali's (a) ear and continued whispering...when through the people asked Ali, "what was the Prophet saying to you?" He (Ali) said, 'he opened one door which (in turn) opened a thousand doors...and each thousand doors opened an additional thousand more doors' (paraphrase...I don't have the exact reference with me offhand...perhaps someone can help out)…according to other versions, each of the thousand doors opened a million doors of knowledge...now the question becomes...how long was the Prophet (s) whispering to Ali (a)?? 30 years? 40 - 50 years?? I'm assuming the duration of time spent murmuring was something like 10 minutes - possibly 30 or 40 minutes max...Ali absorbed volumes and volumes and volumes of information within the span of a few minutes...so how was this wisdom imparted from one human being to another if not by some sort of transcendent agency?? What's the Zaydi understanding of this hadith??

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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@Warilla, Shaykh al-Mufid stated, "Saying that they (Prophets and Imams) possess the knowledge of ‘the unseen’ should be refuted as being something clearly incorrect, because the attribute of this can only be for someone who possesses the knowledge of (all) things within himself, not the knowledge obtained from another; and this can only be for Allāh, to whom belong Might and Majesty. All Imamis agree on this except those who deviated from them and are called Mufawwidah and extremists (al-Ghulat).”

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@Eddie Mecca why don’t you address the points I made instead, instead of reiterating Twelver theology - that aren’t even a consensus in your own circle at that. Also, metaphors don’t need to be taken literal. 

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3 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Also, metaphors don’t need to be taken literal.

So the hadith of the 'whispering' is a metaphor?? Please expound on this if you would...I would love to hear how this is symbolic/figurative/metaphorical/allegorical etc.

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15 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

So the hadith of the 'whispering' is a metaphor?? Please expound on this if you would...I would love to hear how this is symbolic/figurative/metaphorical/allegorical etc.

There are more important questions to address in your tradition 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

There are more important questions to address in your tradition 

You're being evasive and sidestepping the issue like a skilled Spanish matador...consider this...the concept of a divinely protected guide is something that can be found in our religion as well as outside in other religions..."And behold! I inspired The Disciples" Qurʼān 5:111...is this inspiration also "metaphorical" according to you? If so, then what is your literal interpretation of this verse? Also, Jesus is reported to have said, "But when they arrest you (i.e. Disciples), do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." Matthew 10:19 and and Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in Heaven." Matthew 16:17 Simon son of Jonah = Sham'un Al-Safa (Peter, also known as Simon the Pure)

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

He has given his clear definition of Zaidi Imamat

Where it is? What is Zaidi Imamate? I am asking about "Imamate". What is your understanding of the concept of Imamate? 

This is the key question. Our differences lies right here. What makes you believe that Zayd shaheed was the Imam? What makes you believe that Sons of Abbas (رضي الله عنه), Ja'far (رضي الله عنه) and rest of the sons of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) were not Imams? 

So if you truly want a fruitful, result oriented discussion and really want to have debate on the subject "the concept of Imamate (in general)", kindly write down your understanding of what Imamate is. 

6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Trying to distract from a debate with leading questions won't benefit anyone.

I am not trying to distract anyone or anything. If this is a debate thread and subject is "concept of Imamate". Why you are not giving us your understanding of it? Again same question.

6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Would you prefer an article about children becoming Imams and beams of light giving them all knowledge ?

I am interested in knowing what is meant by "Imam"? What is Imamate? 

Till now, I only know that you believe in Imamate of Ali (عليه السلام), Hassan (عليه السلام) & Hussain (عليه السلام) because you understand it was a divine command & the command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

So fine, that's good. You are obeying the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle. But what is Imamate? 

If you were to ask me the same question, I would have replied you in a simple single sentence "Imamate is a divine covenant which will not reach to wrongdoers (zalimeen)". 

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49 minutes ago, Cool said:

If this is a debate thread and subject is "concept of Imamate". 

I meant in the twelver framework, you can't have a debate and a lesson at the same time. Therefore, it would be wise to first raise concerns over familiar grounds. I don't like your arrogant tone, so I will no longer be addressing you :)

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20 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I don't like your arrogant tone,

What made you think I am arrogant? Or using an arrogant tone? 

Come on, I am @Cool, and this is fact :D.

21 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

so I will no longer be addressing you :)

That is a wise decision, after all you have realized that I am @Cool

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For those interested in asking questions, you are all welcome to post them on this thread. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

If you don't believe in any knowledge being mystically imparted then you're in trouble...........’ 

These positions are found exclusively in your books. On the other hand and here is a quote from a source we both share.

One of his companions said to him: O Amir al-mu'minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu'minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb:

O brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (‘ilmu'l-ghayb), 3 these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse:

“Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die..” (Qur'an, 31:34)

"Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it."

Nahjul balagah sermon 128.

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

@Eddie Mecca why don’t you address the points I made instead, instead of reiterating Twelver theology - that aren’t even a consensus in your own circle at that. Also, metaphors don’t need to be taken literal. 

My fault as he responded to me so I have detailed the debate.

Apologies to all.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

If you were to ask me the same question, I would have replied you in a simple single sentence "Imamate is a divine covenant which will not reach to wrongdoers (zalimeen)". 

That's a good summary and taken from Qur'an. 

We can both use this as a base when discussing imamate. As it work for both our concepts of Imamat.

Now that you have a answer please proceed to answer the original points. Made by the brother.

Or we can leave this thread as the debate began focusing on the 12th Imam and start a new thread on general concept of Imamat.

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30 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Now that you have a answer please proceed to answer the original points. Made by the brother

On 6/17/2021 at 10:32 AM, Zaidism said:

Yes, I believe that the 12th Imam is not fulfilling his role in twelver creed and is merely occupying a relative existence, 

Is this his point?

What is the role of an Imam?

According to us, one of the role of Imam is that he is a witness over people. 

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُواْ شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا 

2:143

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا جِئْنَا مِن كُلِّ أمَّةٍ بِشَهِيدٍ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ عَلَى هَـؤُلاء شَهِيدًا

4:41

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ

22:78

So who is the witness now? And where is he?

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Is this his point?

What is the role of an Imam?

According to us, one of the role of Imam is that he is a witness over people

Ok as this is one role please put all the roles down. And then we can discuss if the 12th Imam is fulfilling them.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok as this is one role please put all the roles down. And then we can discuss if the 12th Imam is fulfilling them.

 

:) How can you analyze what roles God wants him to play at this point of time and how to play?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Cool said:

:) How can you analyze what roles God wants him to play at this point of time and how to play?

 

Very good  we can leave it at that then. Neither of us know his role.

And we can't analyse it so there is nothing to discuss as it just a vague concept.. right ?

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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May I suggest you kids find common ground before you start 'debating' ? 

Everyone can find traditions that fit their dogmatic views. The salaf have been kind enough to publish a plethora of books filled with fabrications defending the views of their denomination. 

Therefore, follow the guidance of your Prophet and let the light of the Qur’an open your third eye. 

Your old man

TheContentedSelf 

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16 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Neither of us know his role.

I have already mentioned one of his role which he is playing. And I can quote you rest of his roles too but I fear it would become a lengthy post and I have not much time to spend here.

18 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

And we can't analyse it

Knowing role of Imam & analyzing what role he is playing & what not are two different things.  You can know the roles of Imam, but you can't analyze that whether he is fulfilling his role or not. 

Why? Because this act itself will make you a witness over Imam, and you are not a witness over him rather he is a witness over you.

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11 minutes ago, Cool said:

Why? Because this act itself will make you a witness over Imam, and you are not a witness over him rather he is a witness over you.

..............

My final point in our dialigue brother.

I have found from 12er (not all but I used to be the same) that it's undebatable for the following:

1)due to statements like yours quoted above

 2)any verse of the Qur'an must be interpreted through your sources.

3)Hadith are rejected and accepted without any consistent criteria.

4) Any hadith accepted must be interpreted and explained holistically by your scholars.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2021 at 11:29 AM, Zaidism said:

We believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, Hassan, and Hussein - in terms of a particular designation 

 

22 hours ago, Cool said:

Where it is? What is Zaidi Imamate? I am asking about "Imamate". What is your understanding of the concept of Imamate? 

This is the key question. Our differences lies right here. What makes you believe that Zayd shaheed was the Imam? What makes you believe that Sons of Abbas (رضي الله عنه), Ja'far (رضي الله عنه) and rest of the sons of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) were not Imams?   

We both (12ver & Zaydi) believe in the Immamate of imam Ali, Imam hassan and Imam Husain (عليه السلام) and we consider  them appointed as Imam by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The reference of verses 33:33 & 5:55 is also mentioned.

Thus the simple question arises that how Abu bakr was made as caliph / imam by the people (sunni belief) instead by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointment? Similarly the matter remains still unanswered on similar lines (alike sunni belief) how Zayd shaheed was appointed as imam (Zaydi belief) 

You are true in this understanding. and i also agree to it.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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19 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

These positions are found exclusively in your books

Nope...both Nizari and Musta‘lī Ismāʿīlīyah report similar-style narrations...basically all Sunnis were Sufi or Sufi-influenced prior to the bolstering of Wahhabism by the British and the Saudis...the ascendancy of Wahhabism/Salafism (via the Saudi petrodollar) spawned the sickness of literalism the Muslim world is currently experiencing...all Sufi orders (except Naqshbandīyah strangely enough) trace their hierarchical lineage (i.e. "spiritual genealogy"/a.k.a. Silsila) back to Ali, Hasan, Husayn etc. and their understanding of these men is extremely close to our apprehension...the Sufi concept of 'Qutb' (i.e. universal "axis", "pivot", or "pole") is closely associated with the Twelver Shi'i notion of Imam or Walī ("protector", "master", "custodian", "saint", literally "friend of Allah" who is specifically marked by divine authority or favor)...the two concepts are virtually identical and evolved completely independent of one another by two communities who didn't have much contact or interaction

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2021 at 8:16 PM, Eddie Mecca said:

.Imam as-Sadiq (a), when asked, ‘Does the Imam know the Unseen?’ replied, ‘No',

Notice that when asked or pressed Imam Ja'far responded by saying, "no"...belief that the Imam doesn't know al-Ghayb (generally) should be the default position for Twelvers and not vice-versa...to assume otherwise is tantamount to mere speculative reasoning

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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@Ali bin Hussein, @Zaidism, if Allah communicating to people who are not prophets is considered 'ghuluww' or borderline 'ghuluww' then how do you explain Allah sending Gabriel to Maryam (peace be upon her) in order to comfort her during her hour of need and to announce the 'Glad Tidings' of the coming Messiah? Brethren, the entire chapter of 'Maryam' should not exist according to this reasoning. A non-prophet was 'purified' and 'chosen' above the women of all nations of the earth. How do you account for this?

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Posted (edited)

@Ali bin Hussein, @Zaidismprior to hearing it from you two...I automatically assumed that Zaydiyyah (alongside Twelvers and Dawoodi Bohras/Musta‘lī Ismāʿīlīs) maintained a balanced spiritual tradition between bāṭin and zāhir expressions...is what you're representing here (i.e. Shia Chat) typical or representative of classical Zaydi thought or has it been influenced by modern Salafism? 

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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2 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Gabriel to Maryam (peace be upon her) 

This is in Qur'an as there is no evidence against this event.

Evidence first, not speculative theory, or cherry picking verses and hadith to fit a narrative.

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Salams. Personally i think Zaidis should first stick to one concept of Imamate. They basically take 12ver concept for first three Imams, then they switch over to believing in fallible Imams and these two are two different concepts and each nullifies the other.

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Your problem is, you people say first three are infallible. Ok Accepted!

Then say Zaid is Imam but you don't claim infallibility for him right? If i am wrong correct me. If not infallible, you don't need to have a hadith declaring his imamate.

Means Allah left people on their own after Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) passed away.

Thats similar to AhleSunnah.

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1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Ali bin Hussein, @Zaidismprior to hearing it from you two...I automatically assumed that Zaydiyyah (alongside Twelvers and Dawoodi Bohras/Musta‘lī Ismāʿīlīs) maintained a balanced spiritual tradition between bāṭin and zāhir expressions...is what you're representing here (i.e. Shia Chat) typical or representative of classical Zaydi thought or has it been influenced by modern Salafism? 

The Zaidiya has been accused of lacking spiritualism from many schools classically. (I will try find so e scholarly opinion on Sufi etc)

We are a very practical reason and evidence based Madhab. But we are not literalist either. A middle path between wishwashy and ultra literalism 

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