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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate Challenge)

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:salam:

Is anyone interested in debating?

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Alhamdulilah, thank you for accepting the debate challenge. I pray that it can be productive. 

Shall we discuss the concept of Imamate in general, or the twelfth Imam in particular?

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Perhaps, you are more talking about the role the current Imam plays?

Yes, I believe that the 12th Imam is not fulfilling his role in twelver creed and is merely occupying a relative existence, so as to fill their gap in Imamate. 

It is narrated in Al-Kafi when it comes to the role and purpose of the Imam:

Source: الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

Now, taking this Hadith from Al-Kafi as the means to conceptualize the purpose of Imamate, and going by the rule that the doctrine of Imamate applies to each Imam and that doctrine maintains guidance at its center. I ask, where was the guidance of the Imam when we saw the split between the Akhbari and Usooli schools? Where one school began to make Takfir on another, why? Well, because they both took differing paths to derive this 'guidance' from the Imams. 

Indeed, those who hide Allah’s revelations, trading them for a fleeting gain consume nothing but fire into their bellies. Allah will neither speak to them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He purify them. And they will suffer a painful punishment. [2:174]

The Imam being the gate and means, as you mentioned to understanding the Quran, and those esoteric letters you described. Why is he not sharing with us the interpretation of that which remains ambiguous, or at least guide those who saw a gap in the past, and still see one today. 

When those poor Shias who simply sought guidance from the Imam knocked at his benevolent door, they were merely met by:

Source:  

فاغلقوا أبواب السؤال عما لا يعنيكم، ولا تتكلفوا على ما قد كفيتم

And close the door of questioning in regards to that which does not pertain to you, and do not concern yourselves with other then that which has been made sufficient for you.

Now, before one opens the door for semantics let us see our options, if one may postulate that these are mystical matters which are only specific to the knowledge of the Imam, what is that has been made sufficient for the twelvers? Is it, Maraj3? Certainly not, otherwise one would say that there was a large gap of misguidance before the establishment of scholars of emulation. Is it Al-Tusi, Mufid, Kulayni, etc? Well, they have their own differences and they also did not establish a foundation in which the rift between Usoolism and Akhbarism would be made. 

Furthermore, one cannot prove the existence of this 12th Imam other then resorting to Hadiths about him which are post-occultation, as for that which comes from the blessed tongue of the Holy Prophet it affirms the Zaydi understanding which is an Imam who has Fatimid lineage that will be born in the end times.

The belief in occultation is not one which distinct to the twelver school, it has existed in Shia circles ever since the alleged occultation of Imam Ali, Muhammad bin Al-Haniffyah, Al-Sadiq, Al-Kadhim, Al-Askari, etc.

I remind you of the response of Imam Al-Ridha, from the work of your reliable scholar in which the Imam responds to those who believe in occult Imams. 

In response to the Waqefyah - a group of misguided Shias who believed that the 7th Imam was occult - Imam Ridha states:

قلت للرضا عليه السّلام: جُعلت فداك، قوم قد وقفوا على أبيك يزعمون أنّه لم يمت! قال: كذبوا، وهم كفّار بما أنزل الله ـ جلّ وعزّ ـ على محمّد صلّى الله عليه وآله، ولو كان الله يمدّ في أجَل أحد من بني آدم لحاجةِ الخلق إليه لَمدَّ الله في أجل رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله

Source: Rijaal Al-Kishi, Page 378 (2009, Beirut Edition)

if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would have wanted to extend the life of one of his righteous servants, for the sake of guidance, He would have done so for the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Now, the clause 'for the sake of guidance' is a critical one, because one may be quick to reference Al-Khidr in stating that he has a long life, however, the matter isn't about having a long life. It is about the idea that Allah extends a life, for the sake of guiding. Now, if you still affirm that the 12th Imam's purpose is to guide, indicate to me this guidance, otherwise, it is as I maintain a belief that merely fits the gap of Imamate for twelvers. You can see this if you study the early works meticulously, there is no indication of 12 Caliphs/Imams up until the time when this occultation occurs, you don't even have Nubakhti in his firaq mentioning this and he lived at the time of the 11th Imam!

Furthermore, the Hadith of 12 Caliphs is interestingly used by Nu'mani in his Kitab Al'Ghaybah (post-occultation) as for pre-occultation this Hadith doesn't seem to exist, coincidence? I think not. 

Please refrain from emotional tirades and unnecessary digressions and let us stick to addressing each others points, I will suffice with this small portion of what I have to say and will build upon what you have in response to reconcile the irreconcilable.

You can always get away with focusing on Imamate of Imam Ali, Hadith thaqalayn, etc. Unfortunately you cannot do that with Zaydis, rather their hold onto thaqalayn is much more clearer, truer, and consistent with the Quran, 'Aql, and the Sunnah of the Prophet. This will be demonstrated in the future Insha'Allah. 

In vindicating the belief in occultation, I advise you to not transgress your limits by attributing false sayings that do not corroborate with the Justice and Wisdom of The King of Judgement day. 

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@Ashvazdanghe Please do not interfere with the debate :censored:

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If ahadith only said from offspring of Fatima, you might have some ground

I have plenty ground: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1449_بحار-الأنوار-ج-١٨/الصفحة_0?pageno=389

إن الله أشرف إلى الدنيا، فاختارني على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثانية فاختارك على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدها على رجال العالمين،

In bold: And Allah has chosen the Imams from her sons, not from the sons of Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) only, but from ولدها her sons.

Here's some more ground with a strong isnad:

روى الشيخ الطّوسي، بإسناده ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد عليهما‌السلام ، عن آبائه ، عن علي عليه‌السلام ، قال : ((قال لي رسول الله صلى ‌الله ‌عليه ‌وآله : يا علي ، إنه لما أسري بي إلى السماء تلقتني الملائكة بالبشارات في كل سماء ، …، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين ، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدهما على رجال العالمين))

[أمالي الطوسي:642] .

There's a lot more that I can bring, I figured I'd also share some critical evidences from the Qur'an, i.e demonstrate how اصطفاء has been particular and general when it comes to Prophet's and their progenies. However, you ignored 98% of my opening statement, if you do so again, I am afraid I cannot continue with the debate for clear reasons and invite anyone else who would like to argue against my aforementioned points. 

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There are many ahadith hat say the Mahdi is from Ahlulbayt. This is what I meant, they don't only say from offspring of Fatma.

We have those Hadiths too, what's your point?

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@Cool @Ansar Shiat Ali @Mahdavist @Ali_Hussain @SoRoUsH

Is any of you brothers willing to continue the debate with me? 

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You too brother @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid if you would like :)

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Nah, I was just kidding :D. I don't posess sufficient knowledge, specially when it comes to ahadeeth. I believe it will be better if someone more knowledgeable in these topics (imamah) discusses/debates with you. I'm only observing, from the shadows...

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Yes, Imam Ali is a guide and for every people there is a guide from the progeny of Imam Hassan, or Imam Hussein. i.e the Ahlulbayt.

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On 6/17/2021 at 11:01 AM, Zaidism said:

I have plenty ground: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1449_بحار-الأنوار-ج-١٨/الصفحة_0?pageno=389

إن الله أشرف إلى الدنيا، فاختارني على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثانية فاختارك على رجال العالمين، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدها على رجال العالمين،

In bold: And Allah has chosen the Imams from her sons, not from the sons of Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) only, but from ولدها her sons.

Here's some more ground with a strong isnad:

روى الشيخ الطّوسي، بإسناده ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد عليهما‌السلام ، عن آبائه ، عن علي عليه‌السلام ، قال : ((قال لي رسول الله صلى ‌الله ‌عليه ‌وآله : يا علي ، إنه لما أسري بي إلى السماء تلقتني الملائكة بالبشارات في كل سماء ، …، ثم اطلع الثالثة فاختار فاطمة على نساء العالمين ، ثم اطلع الرابعة فاختار الحسن والحسين والأئمة من ولدهما على رجال العالمين))

[أمالي الطوسي:642] .

أسماء الأئمة(عليهم السلام) من أهل البيت

https://arabic.al-shia.org/%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%A6%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A3%D9%87%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AA/

نص رسول الله(ص) على عدد الأئمة من بعده من طريق العامة والخاصة

http://arabic.al-shia.org/%d9%86%d8%b5-%d8%b1%d8%b3%d9%88%d9%84-%d8%a7%d9%84%d9%84%d9%87%d8%b5-%d8%b9%d9%84%d9%89-%d8%b9%d8%af%d8%af-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d8%a6%d9%85%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%86-%d8%a8%d8%b9%d8%af%d9%87-%d9%85%d9%86/

ورووا عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله ، عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إن الله عز وجل اختار من الأيام يوم الجمعة ، ومن المشهور شهر رمضان ، ومن الليالي ليلة القدر ، واختار من الناس الأنبياء ، واختار من الأنبياء الرسل ، واختار ( ني ) من الرسل ، واختار مني عليا ، واختار من علي الحسن والحسين ، واختار من الحسين الأوصياء عليهم السلام ، وهم تسعة من ولد الحسين ، ينفون عن هذا الدين تحريف الغالين وانتحال المبطلين وتأويل الجاهلين ، تاسعهم باطنهم وظاهرهم وهو قائمهم ( 16 ) .

 

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

أسماء الأئمة(عليهم السلام) من أهل البيت

https://arabic.al-shia.org/%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%A6%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A3%D9%87%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AA/

نص رسول الله(ص) على عدد الأئمة من بعده من طريق العامة والخاصة

http://arabic.al-shia.org/%d9%86%d8%b5-%d8%b1%d8%b3%d9%88%d9%84-%d8%a7%d9%84%d9%84%d9%87%d8%b5-%d8%b9%d9%84%d9%89-%d8%b9%d8%af%d8%af-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d8%a6%d9%85%d8%a9-%d9%85%d9%86-%d8%a8%d8%b9%d8%af%d9%87-%d9%85%d9%86/

ورووا عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله ، عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إن الله عز وجل اختار من الأيام يوم الجمعة ، ومن المشهور شهر رمضان ، ومن الليالي ليلة القدر ، واختار من الناس الأنبياء ، واختار من الأنبياء الرسل ، واختار ( ني ) من الرسل ، واختار مني عليا ، واختار من علي الحسن والحسين ، واختار من الحسين الأوصياء عليهم السلام ، وهم تسعة من ولد الحسين ، ينفون عن هذا الدين تحريف الغالين وانتحال المبطلين وتأويل الجاهلين ، تاسعهم باطنهم وظاهرهم وهو قائمهم ( 16 ) .

 

You need to look at things more critically, you see everyone had a nas from RasulAllah apparently, for example the Batris had a nas for Abu Bakr, the Waqefyah had a nas for the occultation of Imam Al-Kadhim and him being the Mahdi, etc.

Let us take what Majlisi says as a basishttp://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1482_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٥١/الصفحة_0?pageno=41#top

أن بعض رواة تلك الأخبار من الواقفية ولا تقبل رواياتهم فيما يوافق مذهبهم 

Here Majlisi is saying the Hadiths they are presenting him which vindicate their creed are unacceptable because they are not Hujjah upon him, one would also ask why these waqefyah who believed in the 6 preceding Imams somehow tripped and did not notice this 'designation' of the Prophet to the Imams, as the books of firaq mention, as well as Firaq Al-Shia by the reliable Nubakhti, he maintains that those who became waqefyah were of the great jurists and scholars of the Imammis at the time, and they were genuinely seeking a Hadith that designates the following Imam.

Let me share with you a Hadith from Al-Kafi with a Saheeh Isnad that fundamentally destroys twelverism and this idea of there being a نص that designated each Imam by the Prophet.

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبي يحيى الواسطي، عن هشام بن سالم قال

كنا بالمدينة

So Hisham bin Salem and Al-Taq, the one who refused to rise with Imam Zayd telling him that he only rises with an Imam and Imam Zayd is the one who is ignorant about the religion, keep this in mind. 

بعد وفات أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنا وصاحب الطاق والناس مجتمعون على عبد الله بن جعفر انه صاحب الامر بعد أبيه،

Wait a minute didn't @Muslim2010 just share a clear Hadith from the Prophet about the Imams and their names? What is Hisham bin Salem and Al-Taq doing there?! Furthermore, why are the grand scholars and jurists of the Imammiyah perplexed over who the next Imam is. 

فدخلنا عليه أنا وصاحب الطاق

والناس عنده وذلك أنهم رووا عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: إن الامر في الكبير ما لم تكن به عاهة

interesting

فدخلنا عليه نسأله عما كنا نسأل عنه أباه، فسألناه عن الزكاة في كم تجب؟ فقال: في مائتين خمسة، فقلنا: ففي مائة؟ فقال: درهمان ونصف فقلنا: والله ما تقول المرجئة هذا، قال: فرفع يده إلى السماء فقال: والله ما أدري ما تقول المرجئة،

So they are questioning Abdullah, with the notion that he may be the Imam

قال: فخرجنا من عنده ضلالا لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه أنا وأبو جعفر الأحول، فقعدنا في بعض أزقة المدينة باكين حيارى لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه ولا من نقصد؟ ونقول: إلى المرجئة؟ إلى القدرية؟ إلى الزيدية؟ إلى المعتزلة؟
 

SubhanAllah, your reliable narrators did not know where to go after the death of Imam Al-Sadiq??

The Hadith continues and you can read it, someone comes and takes them eventually to Imam Al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) However, you can see that Al-Taq continues to question the Imam saying, where do we go? What do we do? Are you the Imam? I was wondering where all those Hadiths in Al-Kafi that show Imam Al-Sadiq saying Musa Al-Kadhim is the Imam after me went. 

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Here is what you have according to Al-Khoei:

 in his book Sirat al-Najat 2/452:

يقول الخوئي: الروايات المتواترة الواصلة إلينا من طريق العامة والخاصة قد حددت الأئمة عليهم السلام باثني عشر من ناحية العدد ولم تحددهم بأسمائهم عليهم السلام واحداً بعد واحد، حتى لا يمكن فرض الشك في الإمام اللاحق بعد رحلة الإمام السابق، بل قد تقتضي المصلحة في ذلك الزمان اختفاءه والتستر عليه لدى الناس؛ بل لدى أصحابهم عليهم السلام إلا أصحاب السر لهم، وقد اتفقت هذه القضية في غير هذا المورد والله العالم

453  كتاب صراط النجاة ج2 ص

Al Khoei says : The authentic mutawatir narrations that reached us through the public (’Ammah - Mainstream Muslims) and private (Khassah – Twelver Shia) paths have defined the imams, peace be upon them, to twelve in terms of number and did not specify them by their names, peace be upon them one by one, so that suspicion cannot be imposed on the later Imam after the previous Imam's journey, but it may require interest at that time that he hid and concealed it among the people. But among their companions, peace be upon them, except those who have the secret for them and this issue has been agreed upon in other than this resource. Sirat al-Najat 2, p. 452-3
 

So Akhi, don't bring me narrations about names, and even if you did, you see the contradictions that arise? 

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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You need to look at things more critically, you see everyone had a nas from RasulAllah apparently, for example the Batris had a nas for Abu Bakr, the Waqefyah had a nas for the occultation of Imam Al-Kadhim and him being the Mahdi, etc.

Let us take what Majlisi says as a basishttp://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1482_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٥١/الصفحة_0?pageno=41#top

أن بعض رواة تلك الأخبار من الواقفية ولا تقبل رواياتهم فيما يوافق مذهبهم 

Here Majlisi is saying the Hadiths they are presenting him which vindicate their creed are unacceptable because they are not Hujjah upon him, one would also ask why these waqefyah who believed in the 6 preceding Imams somehow tripped and did not notice this 'designation' of the Prophet to the Imams, as the books of firaq mention, as well as Firaq Al-Shia by the reliable Nubakhti, he maintains that those who became waqefyah were of the great jurists and scholars of the Imammis at the time, and they were genuinely seeking a Hadith that designates the following Imam.

Let me share with you a Hadith from Al-Kafi with a Saheeh Isnad that fundamentally destroys twelverism and this idea of there being a نص that designated each Imam by the Prophet.

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبي يحيى الواسطي، عن هشام بن سالم قال

كنا بالمدينة

So Hisham bin Salem and Al-Taq, the one who refused to rise with Imam Zayd telling him that he only rises with an Imam and Imam Zayd is the one who is ignorant about the religion, keep this in mind. 

بعد وفات أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنا وصاحب الطاق والناس مجتمعون على عبد الله بن جعفر انه صاحب الامر بعد أبيه،

Wait a minute didn't @Muslim2010 just share a clear Hadith from the Prophet about the Imams and their names? What is Hisham bin Salem and Al-Taq doing there?! Furthermore, why are the grand scholars and jurists of the Imammiyah perplexed over who the next Imam is. 

فدخلنا عليه أنا وصاحب الطاق

والناس عنده وذلك أنهم رووا عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: إن الامر في الكبير ما لم تكن به عاهة

interesting

فدخلنا عليه نسأله عما كنا نسأل عنه أباه، فسألناه عن الزكاة في كم تجب؟ فقال: في مائتين خمسة، فقلنا: ففي مائة؟ فقال: درهمان ونصف فقلنا: والله ما تقول المرجئة هذا، قال: فرفع يده إلى السماء فقال: والله ما أدري ما تقول المرجئة،

So they are questioning Abdullah, with the notion that he may be the Imam

قال: فخرجنا من عنده ضلالا لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه أنا وأبو جعفر الأحول، فقعدنا في بعض أزقة المدينة باكين حيارى لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه ولا من نقصد؟ ونقول: إلى المرجئة؟ إلى القدرية؟ إلى الزيدية؟ إلى المعتزلة؟
 

SubhanAllah, your reliable narrators did not know where to go after the death of Imam Al-Sadiq??

The Hadith continues and you can read it, someone comes and takes them eventually to Imam Al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) However, you can see that Al-Taq continues to question the Imam saying, where do we go? What do we do? Are you the Imam? I was wondering where all those Hadiths in Al-Kafi that show Imam Al-Sadiq saying Musa Al-Kadhim is the Imam after me went. 

We have authentic hadith for the names of 12 imams from alkafi, also there are sayings of imams of ahlalbayt for nas of every imam, I may respond further but I am writing few words of response as I am

using the phone

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Here is what you have according to Al-Khoei:

 in his book Sirat al-Najat 2/452:

يقول الخوئي: الروايات المتواترة الواصلة إلينا من طريق العامة والخاصة قد حددت الأئمة عليهم السلام باثني عشر من ناحية العدد ولم تحددهم بأسمائهم عليهم السلام واحداً بعد واحد، حتى لا يمكن فرض الشك في الإمام اللاحق بعد رحلة الإمام السابق، بل قد تقتضي المصلحة في ذلك الزمان اختفاءه والتستر عليه لدى الناس؛ بل لدى أصحابهم عليهم السلام إلا أصحاب السر لهم، وقد اتفقت هذه القضية في غير هذا المورد والله العالم

453  كتاب صراط النجاة ج2 ص

Al Khoei says : The authentic mutawatir narrations that reached us through the public (’Ammah - Mainstream Muslims) and private (Khassah – Twelver Shia) paths have defined the imams, peace be upon them, to twelve in terms of number and did not specify them by their names, peace be upon them one by one, so that suspicion cannot be imposed on the later Imam after the previous Imam's journey, but it may require interest at that time that he hid and concealed it among the people. But among their companions, peace be upon them, except those who have the secret for them and this issue has been agreed upon in other than this resource. Sirat al-Najat 2, p. 452-3
 

So Akhi, don't bring me narrations about names, and even if you did, you see the contradictions that arise? 

You are just trying to present words of scholars that appreatly look misquoted to derive some errneous conclusion. And that is disagreed

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22 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

We have authentic hadith for the names of 12 imams from alkafi, also there are sayings of imams of ahlalbayt for nas of every imam

I don’t understand why every point I am making is being ignored, I already responded to this. 

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21 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

You are just trying to present words of scholars that appreatly look misquoted to derive some errneous conclusion. And that is disagreed

I respectfully disagree, there is no disingenuous intention/saying on my part Insha’Allah.

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9 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I don’t understand why every point I am making is being ignored, I already responded to this. 

I have presented my clear view and I may respond further if needed after some time when I have my desktop in use, thanks for your understanding

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4 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The words of scholars are being misquoted and I disagree with your words thanks for confirming my words

I await your clarification to what is evidently clear. 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

I am too cool, you know!!

What debate you want to do with me?

Thank you for kindly accepting, May Allah reward you. You are free to respond to any of the aforementioned points/arguments and we can move on from there Insha'Allah. 

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1 minute ago, Zaidism said:

Thank you for kindly accepting,

I haven't "accepted" anything brother. Just asked you what you are willing to debate. 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

I haven't "accepted" anything brother. Just asked you what you are willing to debate. 

 

On 6/16/2021 at 5:44 PM, Zaidism said:

the concept of Imamate in general, or the twelfth Imam in particular

 

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Just now, Cool said:

Do you believe in Imamate?

We believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, Hassan, and Hussein - in terms of a particular designation 

As for the Ahlulbayt we believe in their Imamate as a general designation

For example, the particular designation of Harun/Musa and the general designation of Banu Isra'il

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Just now, Zaidism said:

We believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, Hassan, and Hussein - in terms of a particular designation 

Who commanded you to believe on their Imamate? What you understand Imamate actually is?

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Just now, Cool said:

Who commanded you to believe on their Imamate? What you understand Imamate actually is?

33:33, 5:55, Hadith thaqalyn, Ghadeer, etc. 

This is a debate thread, you are free to visit Zaidiportal.com or Salvationark.com to read and ask questions, or start a new thread.

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2 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

33:33, 5:55, Hadith thaqalyn, Ghadeer, etc. 

:D

Ok, so you believe on their Imamate because it is divine command as well as command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that's why you have given the references of verses of Quran & hadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

So what you understand Imamate actually is?

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Just now, Cool said:

So what you understand Imamate actually is?

Again, this is a debate thread. There are plenty of materials to learn, you can check out the blogposts of brother @Ali bin Hussein you can also read the PDF article in Zaidiportal.com titled 'Sublime Answers' or, you can be bold and read the works of Al Kadhim Al Zaydi: 

https://alkazemalzaidy2013.wordpress.com/2020/01/26/كتب-وأبحاث-الأستاذ-الكاظم-الزيدي/

You also have the option of opening a new thread.

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1 minute ago, Zaidism said:

you can also read the PDF article in Zaidiportal.com titled 'Sublime Answers' or, you can be bold and read the works of Al Kadhim Al Zaydi: 

I myself is a Zaidi portal. Direct descendent of Zayd Shaheed. And I am a twelver shia. 

Why you are avoiding to answer my question? You want to debate on concept of Imamate in general, yet avoiding to share your understanding of Imamate in your own words?

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52 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

the particular designation of Harun/Musa and the general designation of Banu Isra'il

While the 12 Imams (a) received direct 'infallibility' or 'protection' and ilham it's my personal belief that Imam Zayd (a), Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah (a), Muhammad an-Nafs az-Zakiyyah (a) and other Hashimite notables (likewise) were granted lesser forms of the same 'protection' and 'guidance' from the Almighty (s) based on their pure depositions, exceptional moral qualities, firmness against evil, and tranquility in their hearts...and I believe all alids and sayyids have a general designation

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Let me expend it a bit, to let you know why I am asking what you understand Imamate actually is. 

Your given portal mentions this on Imamate:

Quote

IMAMAT OF ALI BIN ABI ŤĀLIB

We are religiously obligated to believe that Amīr al-Muminīn, ‘Ali bin Abi Ťālib,

Allah’s blessings be upon him, was the best of the Community after the Prophet,

upon him be peace. He was obedient to his Lord, always willing to give his life,

and always immensely engrossed in his obedience to Allah and His Messenger,

upon him be peace. He was the closest in kinship to the Messenger of Mercy. He

was foremost in knowledge concerning what Allah revealed in the Qur’ān and

his asceticism in this world. The statements of the Messenger, peace and

blessings be upon him and his progeny, concerning him are famous and wellknown;

among them the Day of the Pond (Ghadīr) of Khumm: ((Whomever I

have authority over, ‘Ali has authority over. O Allah, help those that help him

and oppose those that oppose him! Assist those that assist him, and abandon

those that abandon him!)); as well as his statement: ((‘Ali is to me as Aaron was

to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me.)); and ((You are a jurist

(qāďi) of religion and the fulfiller of my trusts)).

The Messenger, upon him be peace, specified him knowing the happenstances

and controversies that would occur with his community. ‘Ali used to relate an

account that he would be killed by a Murādi; and also, he was informed about

the Transgressors (firqat al-Qāsiŧa), the Traitors (an-Nākitha), and the Rebels

(al-Māriqa). It is the consensus of our community that when given the choice,

they all chose him, with the exception of small splinter groups. In that, they

agreed that he is foremost of the forerunners (as-sābiqīn), foremost of the

scholars, foremost of the ascetics, and the foremost amongst those who were

willing to sacrifice themselves. There is no disagreement that he possessed these

traits more than others. His virtues were evident to all.

He was the cousin of Muhammad, upon him be peace; as well as the father of

the two Grandsons (as-Sibtayn): al-Hassan and al-Hussein. He was the husband

of Fātima, blessings be upon them all.

There is mutual agreement that ‘Ali, Allah’s blessings be upon him, was suited

for the Caliphate the day that Allah took His Prophet, upon him be peace. They

disagreed concerning other than him. That withstanding, truth is with what all

agree on. Falsehood is with what all disagree on.

What Imamate is? Nothing is mentioned.

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I would appreciate it if the mods could delete any irrelevant comments in relation to the debate, as I have made it clear that I do not want the thread to be derailed and the members are free to open a thread to ask their questions - which I will personally answer Insha'Allah. 

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