Transfer of najasat

[Guest Daw]

Can you please explain the transfer of najasat according to Sistani because I am confused. 
 

If urine gets on door handle, then after drying, I touch it with my wet hand, is my hand 1st or 2nd mutanajjis ( because I am again touching najsool-ayn directly ). Then after that, my wet hand touches my cellphone, is my cellphone 3rd, 2nd, or 1st mutanajjis? ( as I currently understand it, my hand should get dry first ?)

How does Sistan’s ruling differ from others? Like Fadlala and others? Does Fadlala say najasa only transfers up to 2nd mutanajjis?

Thank you. 

[Muhammad A-H]

On 6/13/2021 at 4:43 AM, Guest Daw said:

If urine gets on door handle, then after drying, I touch it with my wet hand, is my hand 1st or 2nd mutanajjis ( because I am again touching najsool-ayn directly ).

Salam,

When the urine dries, there is no trace of the urine remaining. It is as if there is no urine. That is why it is considered that there is no 'ayn najasah on the door handle and the door handle would, thus, be considered as the first mutanajjis. When touching the door handle with your hand, your hand would become second mutanajjis. Then if your hand touches another object with wetness that object will be third mutanajjis and cannot make other things najis.

If, for example, there was blood that had dried on the door handle instead of urine, and your hand touches the blood with wetness, the hand will become first mutanajjis.

On 6/13/2021 at 4:43 AM, Guest Daw said:

Then after that, my wet hand touches my cellphone, is my cellphone 3rd, 2nd, or 1st mutanajjis? ( as I currently understand it, my hand should get dry first ?)

According to Al-Sayyid As-SIstani, the hand does not need to dry first. According to some other maraja', like Al-Sayyid Khamenei, it is necessary for the hand to dry first. I asked this question on Al-Sayyid As-Sistani's website:

Question: The transfer of impurity is limited to two intermediaries. So, for example, if the right hand had become impure by an intrinsic impurity, it can transfer impurity to the left hand through wetness and the left hand can transfer impurity to another object through wetness but this third object does not make anything else najis. In order for this ruling to take place is it necessary for each of these objects to completely dry before transferring the impurity? Is it necessary for the impurity to transfer through new wetness for each time in order for this ruling to take place? What if the right hand transfers impurity to the left hand through wetness and the left hand with this same wetness transfers impurity to the third object?

 

In the Name of God, the Most High

 

It makes no difference.

May Allah grant you success.

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

[Muhammad A-H]

On 6/14/2021 at 10:19 AM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

According to Al-Sayyid As-SIstani, the hand does not need to dry first.

The hand does not need to dry in this case however, based on my knowledge, the cellphone needs to dry and if it contacts other objects with the same wetness, those objects will be third mutanajjis as well.

On 6/13/2021 at 4:43 AM, Guest Daw said:

Does Fadlala say najasa only transfers up to 2nd mutanajjis?

According to Sayyed Fadhlallah (keep in mind he is not the A'lam and never was):

48. If an inherently impure thing touches another thing, the latter is called al-Motenejjis al-Awwel (the first thing affected by the impurity); if the impure thing left it then it (the touched thing) touched another (second) thing, then if al-Motenejjis al-Awwel is fluid, the second thing would definitely become impure, and if it was solid and was touched by spreading wetness, it would become impure as an obligatory precaution ruling, and this is regardless of its state being fluid or solid; but as for the second thing, which is called al-Motenejjis ath-ThānĪ (the second thing affected by the impurity), it does not make impure the things that it touches at all, i.e. al-Motenejjis ath-ThānĪ does not make impure what it touches, whether the two parties are solid or fluid or one of them solid and the other fluid.

[theinvisibleman]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:58 AM, Muhammad A-H said:

The hand does not need to dry in this case however, based on my knowledge, the cellphone needs to dry and if it contacts other objects with the same wetness, those objects will be third mutanajjis as well.

Salaam.

Why would the cellphone need to dry but not the hand?

Also, how certain are you that Ayatollah Sistani does actually believe that mutanajjis objects do not need to dry to be classed as intermediaries? i.e. his true opinion hasn't been lost in translation.

I am considering following this rule to make my life easier, so want to be certain that this is truly what he thinks.

Another link here states that objects must dry according to him:

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1754

Similarly, the example on his website mentions "after drying":

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

[Guest TheStraightPath]

2 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

Salaam.

Why would the cellphone need to dry but not the hand?

Also, how certain are you that Ayatollah Sistani does actually believe that mutanajjis objects do not need to dry to be classed as intermediaries? i.e. his true opinion hasn't been lost in translation.

I am considering following this rule to make my life easier, so want to be certain that this is truly what he thinks.

Another link here states that objects must dry according to him:

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1754

Similarly, the example on his website mentions "after drying":

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

Salam alaykom brother

I was also confused about this so I contacted Sayyed Sistani's office through his website with this question:

Quote

I have a question regarding the transfer of najasah which has been bothering me quite a lot. 
If we take this scenario as an example:
We have a bag that is made of najis leather. It's raining outside. 

(1) A person touches the bag with his hand. His hand would become the 1st mutanajjis. 

(2) The person touches a door handle with his hand that is still wet. The door handle would become the second mutanajjis.

(3) I come and touch the door handle with my own hand. My hand would become the 3rd mutanajjis.

(4) I touch other stuff such as my jacket, mobile phone etc right after with the same wetness. These do not get najis since my hand was 3rd mutanajjis. 

Is this correct? I've heard some say that it doesn't matter if it's the same wetness going through all of these things, the rule still applies. Some say that if it's the same wetness from the 1st mutanajjis, the second mutanajjis would make other things 2nd mutanajjis as well (unless it first dries). I've always thought it's the former (that it doesn't matter) but I'm very confused.

 

And I received this reply:

Quote

In the Name of Allah, the Most High

Yes, it is correct; those other items do not become impure. 

May Allah grant you success

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

 

[The Straight Path]

2 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

Salaam.

Why would the cellphone need to dry but not the hand?

Also, how certain are you that Ayatollah Sistani does actually believe that mutanajjis objects do not need to dry to be classed as intermediaries? i.e. his true opinion hasn't been lost in translation.

I am considering following this rule to make my life easier, so want to be certain that this is truly what he thinks.

Another link here states that objects must dry according to him:

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1754

Similarly, the example on his website mentions "after drying":

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

Salam alaykom

This has also been confusing me, I did contact both Sistani.org and Najaf.org (UK office) with this question and received these replies:

Quote

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

1- the hand the first mutanajis
2- effect apply regardless if it's the same or new wetness

Wassalamu Alaykum

Quote

In the Name of Allah, the Most High

Yes, it is correct; those other items do not become impure. 

May Allah grant you success

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

When I sent them the question I gave the example of a hand touching najis leather and then touching something else etc. I asked if the "domino effect" ruling still applied when it's the same wetness, and according to them the ruling still applies. 

 

However I also sent the question to Imam-us.org (which I think is Sayyed Sistani's office in USA) but got this answer back:

Quote

If the same exact wetness that you collected with your hands from the door handle comes into contact with another object, then that other object will be a third mutanajjis. However, if the wetness of the door handle has mixed with the wetness of your hand, then that wetness would be considered the third mutanajjis and therefore will not cause anything else to be mutanajjis.

 

However since both Sistani.org and the UK office told me that it doesn't matter wether it's the same wetness or not, I've decided to follow that ruling. I really hope it is correct because as you said it really make things much easier. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by The Straight Path

[theinvisibleman]

5 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Salam alaykom

This has also been confusing me, I did contact both Sistani.org and Najaf.org (UK office) with this question and received these replies:

When I sent them the question I gave the example of a hand touching najis leather and then touching something else etc. I asked if the "domino effect" ruling still applied when it's the same wetness, and according to them the ruling still applies. 

 

However I also sent the question to Imam-us.org (which I think is Sayyed Sistani's office in USA) but got this answer back:

 

However since both Sistani.org and the UK office told me that it doesn't matter wether it's the same wetness or not, I've decided to follow that ruling. I really hope it is correct because as you said it really make things much easier. 

Thank you very much for sharing this!

[Muhammad A-H]

10 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

Salaam.

Why would the cellphone need to dry but not the hand?

Also, how certain are you that Ayatollah Sistani does actually believe that mutanajjis objects do not need to dry to be classed as intermediaries? i.e. his true opinion hasn't been lost in translation.

I am considering following this rule to make my life easier, so want to be certain that this is truly what he thinks.

Another link here states that objects must dry according to him:

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1754

Similarly, the example on his website mentions "after drying":

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

Salam,

The ruling of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani is that first mutanajjis liquids make other things second mutnajjis, second mutanajjis liquids make other things third mutanajjis and third mutanajjis liquids do not make anything else najis.

So the hand does not need to dry in that case because the wetness on it is second mutanajjis and the hand itself is second mutanajjis, so whatever the hand or the wetness touches becomes third mutanajjis. The cellphone needs to dry because the wetness on it is the same wetness that was on the hand, which is second mutanajjis and makes other things impure.

 

(مسألة 56): تنتقل النجاسة من الأشياء المذكورة إلى ما يلاقيها مع وجود الرطوبة المسرية في أحد المتلاقيين، وأمّا مع جفافهما أو وجود النداوة المحضة فلا تنتقل النجاسة إلى الملاقي.
وأيضاً تنتقل النجاسة من الشيء المتنجّس إلى ما يلاقيه بالشرط المتقدّم، إلّا مع تعدّد ثلاث وسائط بين الملاقي وعين النجاسة.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/24/1845/

In this fatwa, it says that the transfer of impurity stops after three intermediaries (وسائط), and it does not distinguish between liquid and solid intermediaries which implies that there is no difference.

Scholars who do not consider liquids as intermediaries, like sheikh fayyad, typically mention that liquids are not considered to be intermediaries in their fatawa.

 

 

Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani does not mention the need for drying in these fatawa:

مسألة 415: المتنجّس بملاقاة عين النجاسة كالنجس ينجِّس ما يلاقيه مع الرطوبة المسرية، وكذلك المتنجّس بملاقاة المتنجّس ينجّس ملاقيه فيما إذا لم ‏تتعدّد الوسائط بينه وبين عين النجس وإلّا فلا ينجّسه وإن كان الأحوط استحباباً الاجتناب عنه، مثلاً : إذا لاقت اليد اليمنى البول فهي تتنجّس، فإذا لاقتها اليد اليسرى مع الرطوبة حكم بنجاستها أيضاً، وكذا إذا لاقى اليد اليسرى مع الرطوبة شيء آخر كالثوب فإنه يحكم بنجاسته، ولكن إذا لاقى الثوب شيء آخر مع الرطوبة سواء أكان مائعاً أم غيره فلا يحكم بنجاسته.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/23720/4612/

سؤال : متى تنقطع سلسلة المتنجسات إذا كانت غير سائلة؟
جواب : المتنجس الأول ينجّس ملاقيه، وكذا المتنجس الثاني، وأما الثالث فلا ينجس ملاقيه من غير فرق بين السوائل وغيرها

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/17/953/

ينجس الملاقي للنجس مع الرطوبة المسرية في أحدهما، وكذلك الملاقي للمتنجّس بملاقاة النجس، بل وكذا الملاقي للمتنجّس بملاقاة المتنجّس فيما لم تتعدّد الوسائط بينه وبين عين النجاسة، وإلّا فلا ينجّسه وإن كان الأحوط استحباباً الاجتناب عنه، مثلاً: إذا لاقت اليد اليمنى البول فهي تتنجّس، فإذا لاقتها اليد اليسرى مع الرطوبة يحكم بنجاستها أيضاً، وكذا إذا لاقت اليد اليسرى مع الرطوبة شيئاً آخر كالثوب فإنّه يحكم بنجاسته، ولكن إذا لاقى الثوب شيئاً آخر مع الرطوبة - سواء كان مائعاً أم غيره - فلا يحكم بنجاسته.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/13/560/

 

I sent this question to sistani.org and this was the response:

 

Question: The transfer of impurity is limited to two intermediaries. So, for example, if the right hand had become impure by an intrinsic impurity, it can transfer impurity to the left hand through wetness and the left hand can transfer impurity to another object through wetness but this third object does not make anything else najis. In order for this ruling to take place is it necessary for each of these objects to completely dry before transferring the impurity? Is it necessary for the impurity to transfer through new wetness for each time in order for this ruling to take place? What if the right hand transfers impurity to the left hand through wetness and the left hand with this same wetness transfers impurity to the third object? Also, does the transferring of impurity in this particular circumstance require direct contact between the objects? What if a pure object is placed into a utensil full of water with an impure object? Would this pure object be considered an intermediary?

 

In the Name of God, the Most High

 

It makes no difference.

May Allah grant you success.

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

[theinvisibleman]

6 hours ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Salam,

The ruling of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani is that first mutanajjis liquids make other things second mutnajjis, second mutanajjis liquids make other things third mutanajjis and third mutanajjis liquids do not make anything else najis.

So the hand does not need to dry in that case because the wetness on it is second mutanajjis and the hand itself is second mutanajjis, so whatever the hand or the wetness touches becomes third mutanajjis. The cellphone needs to dry because the wetness on it is the same wetness that was on the hand, which is second mutanajjis and makes other things impure.

Thank you for the detailed response brother.

However I still don't understand. If the cellphone is second mutanajjis (same as the hand), then it will make other things third mutanajjis in the exact same way as the hand wouldn't it? There is no difference between the two.

Having said that, if it was the hand (second mutanajjis) that touched the cellphone, and we've agreed Ayatollah Sistani says there doesn't need to be a new wetness, then wouldn't the cellphone be third mutanajjis anyway?

[Muhammad A-H]

2 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

 

However I still don't understand. If the cellphone is second mutanajjis (same as the hand), then it will make other things third mutanajjis in the exact same way as the hand wouldn't it? There is no difference between the two.

 

Salam,

The cellphone is not second mutanajjis, it is third mutanajjis but has second mutanajjis liquid on it. So if the cellphone touches other objects with the same wetness, they will become third mutanajjis due to contact with the second mutanajjis liquid, not due to contacting the cellphone.

2 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

Having said that, if it was the hand (second mutanajjis) that touched the cellphone, and we've agreed Ayatollah Sistani says there doesn't need to be a new wetness, then wouldn't the cellphone be third mutanajjis anyway?

Yes, the cellphone would be third mutanajjis, but it needs to dry because it has second mutanajjis liquid on it.

[The Straight Path]

27 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Salam,

The cellphone is not second mutanajjis, it is third mutanajjis but has second mutanajjis liquid on it. So if the cellphone touches other objects with the same wetness, they will become third mutanajjis due to contact with the second mutanajjis liquid, not due to contacting the cellphone.

Yes, the cellphone would be third mutanajjis, but it needs to dry because it has second mutanajjis liquid on it.

But if this is really the case, then should't this have been specified in the answer that both you and me received? 

When I got both the answers from Sistani.org & Najaf.org which said that it doesn't matter if it's the same wetness or not, this was the question I sent them:

Quote

We have a bag that is made of najis leather. It's raining outside. 

(1) A person touches the bag with his hand. His hand would become the 1st mutanajjis. 

(2) The person touches a door handle with his hand that is still wet. The door handle would become the second mutanajjis.

(3) I come and touch the door handle with my own hand. My hand would become the 3rd mutanajjis.

(4) I touch other stuff such as my jacket, mobile phone etc right after with the same wetness. These do not get najis since my hand was 3rd mutanajjis. 

Is this correct? I've heard some say that it doesn't matter if it's the same wetness going through all of these things, the rule still applies. Some say that if it's the same wetness from the 1st mutanajjis, the second mutanajjis would make other things 2nd mutanajjis as well (unless it first dries). I've always thought it's the former (that it doesn't matter) but I'm very confused.

And Sistani.org replied with:

Quote

In the Name of Allah, the Most High

Yes, it is correct; those other items do not become impure. 

May Allah grant you success

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

I.e those other items that I touch with my hand (which is 3rd mutanajjis) and which is still wet with the same wetness from those previous najis things, does not make those other items najis. From what I can see, the question you sent to Sistani.org and the answer you got back seems to also imply the same thing, that it doesn't matter even if it's the same wetness from the 1st mutanajjis. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The answer I got from Najaf.org (I sent them the same scenario) was even more clear:

Quote

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

1- the hand the first mutanajis
2- effect apply regardless if it's the same or new wetness

Wassalamu Alaykum

JazakumAllah kher

Edited January 14, 2023 by The Straight Path

[The Straight Path]

I also sent the question to Sayyed Mohammad Baqer Qazwini on the "Ask those who know" and this was our discussion:

Quote

Sayyed Mohammad Baqer Qazwini:

Salam Alaikom

According to Ayatollah Sistani, the fourth intermediary no longer becomes Najes. The Najasa stops at the third intermediary. The example he gives is the following:

1- Your right hand touches urine, so it becomes Najes

2- Your left hand touches your moist right hand, so it becomes Najes. 

3- Your left hand which is moist touches your clothes, and so your clothes become Najes.

But now the clothes don’t have the capacity to transfer the Najasa to something else. So if your clothes are wet, and they touch the furniture, then furniture does not become Najes though the clothes themselves are Najes.

In your example:

1- Your moist hand touches Najes leather, so the hand becomes Najes. Your hand here is considered the first Motanajjes, not the second, because the leather is the Najes itself. 

2- Then your moist hand touches the doorknob, so it becomes Najes. The doorknob is the second Motanajjes here. 

3- Then let’s say your moist clothes touch the doorknob. Your clothes also become Najes. But the najasa stops there. Your clothes won’t make anything else Najes.

 

Me:

JazamumAllah kher
And this rule regarding intermediaries applies even if it's due do the same wetness correct?

So another person touches najes leather that is wet due to rain, his hand becomes 1st motanajjes, then he touches the door knob few seconds later, it becomes the 2nd. Then I come and touch it which makes my hand the 3rd, now it can't make anything else najes. Or should the other person's hand first dry, and then be exposed to new wetness for the door knob to become the 2nd mutanajjis?

The reason I was confused was because on Sayyed Sistani's website, they seem to have added in brackets that it should first dry out between each intermediary

Sayyed Mohammad Baqer Qazwini:

It doesn’t have to be dry, unless the actual Najasa is there. For example, if one’s hand touches urine, then his hand touches the doorknob and drops of urine are transferred to the doorknob, then in this case the Najasa itself is present on the doorknob. Urine is considered Ayn al-Najasa, so the “intermediary” discussion doesn’t apply to the doorknob when the Najasa is present. Yes, if the actual urine wasn’t present, then the discussion on intermediaries applies. 

 

[theinvisibleman]

1 hour ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Salam,

The cellphone is not second mutanajjis, it is third mutanajjis but has second mutanajjis liquid on it. So if the cellphone touches other objects with the same wetness, they will become third mutanajjis due to contact with the second mutanajjis liquid, not due to contacting the cellphone.

Yes, the cellphone would be third mutanajjis, but it needs to dry because it has second mutanajjis liquid on it.

I think the issue here is when you consider ALL liquids as intermediaries. If you consider all liquids as intermediaries, then even the small wetness that transfers najasa is considered an intermediary, in which case your point about the wetness on the cellphone needing to dry is perhaps valid.

But even then, in order for the liquid on the cellphone to be second mutanajjis, it would have needed to contact a first mutanajjis item. And in the original example, the hand is second mutanajjis rather than first. So even if we're considering small moisture/liquid as mutanajjis, then surely in the original example that moisture would be third mutanajjis and the cellphone would remain tahir.

54 minutes ago, The Straight Path said:

I also sent the question to Sayyed Mohammad Baqer Qazwini on the "Ask those who know" and this was our discussion:

 

I think this exchange makes it clear to ignore the small moisture that transfers najasa and not to consider it as an intermediary. If not then the Sayed would surely have mentioned that the part of the third mutanajjis item that was made wet/najis needs to dry first. But he doesn't - he just says that this third mutanajjis item can't make anything else najis, period.

[Muhammad A-H]

4 minutes ago, theinvisibleman said:

I think the issue here is when you consider ALL liquids as intermediaries. If you consider all liquids as intermediaries, then even the small wetness that transfers najasa is considered an intermediary, in which case your point about the wetness on the cellphone needing to dry is perhaps valid.

But even then, in order for the liquid on the cellphone to be second mutanajjis, it would have needed to contact a first mutanajjis item. And in the original example, the hand is second mutanajjis rather than first. So even if we're considering small moisture/liquid as mutanajjis, then surely in the original example that moisture would be third mutanajjis and the cellphone would remain tahir.

The wetness on the cellphone is second mutanajjis because the hand and the wetness both had touched the first mutanajjis door handle.

And all liquids would be considered as an intermediary as I mentioned here:

10 hours ago, Muhammad A-H said:

(مسألة 56): تنتقل النجاسة من الأشياء المذكورة إلى ما يلاقيها مع وجود الرطوبة المسرية في أحد المتلاقيين، وأمّا مع جفافهما أو وجود النداوة المحضة فلا تنتقل النجاسة إلى الملاقي.
وأيضاً تنتقل النجاسة من الشيء المتنجّس إلى ما يلاقيه بالشرط المتقدّم، إلّا مع تعدّد ثلاث وسائط بين الملاقي وعين النجاسة.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/24/1845/

In this fatwa, it says that the transfer of impurity stops after three intermediaries (وسائط), and it does not distinguish between liquid and solid intermediaries which implies that there is no difference.

Scholars who do not consider liquids as intermediaries, like sheikh fayyad, typically mention that liquids are not considered to be intermediaries in their fatawa.

 

[Muhammad A-H]

@The Straight Path Maybe you are right, I might look into this issue further.

[theinvisibleman]

9 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

The wetness on the cellphone is second mutanajjis because the hand and the wetness both had touched the first mutanajjis door handle.

And all liquids would be considered as an intermediary as I mentioned here:

 

But then that would contradict the opinion we're discussing here, which is that there doesn't need to be a new wetness (i.e. original wetness doesn't need to dry) in order for transmissions to increase.

[Muhammad A-H]

2 minutes ago, theinvisibleman said:

But then that would contradict the opinion we're discussing here, which is that there doesn't need to be a new wetness (i.e. original wetness doesn't need to dry) in order for transmissions to increase.

What I was saying in response to the original question in this thread was that first mutanajjis liquids make other things second mutanajjis, second mutanajjis liquids make other things third mutanajjis, and third mutanajjis liquids do not make other things impure, and I clarified myself when you questioned my original response.

This is contrary to the opinion of the scholars who do not believe liquids are intermediaries, such as Al-Sayyid Khamenei, because Sayyid Khamenei says first mutanajjis liquids make other things first mutanajjis, second mutanajjis liquids make other things second mutanajjis and third mutanajjis liquids (which are impure upon obligatory precaution) make other things third mutanajjis upon obligatory precaution.

[Muhammad A-H]

@The Straight Path If those responses are true, that would mean that impurity only transfers when a solid impure object touches another solid object with wetness, but wetness alone cannot make other things impure. But that would contradict with other fatawa, such as this one which says that if impure sweat flows and touches other areas of the body they would become impure:

مسألة 4: إذا لاقت النجاسة جزءاً من البدن المتعرق لا تسري إلى سائر أجزائه إلا مع جريان العرق

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/22/1676/

Edited January 14, 2023 by Muhammad A-H

[Muhammad A-H]

20 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

@The Straight Path If those responses are true, that would mean that impurity only transfers when a solid impure object touches another solid object with wetness, but wetness alone cannot make other things impure. But that would contradict with other fatawa, such as this one which says that if impure sweat flows and touches other areas of the body they would become impure:

مسألة 4: إذا لاقت النجاسة جزءاً من البدن المتعرق لا تسري إلى سائر أجزائه إلا مع جريان العرق

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/22/1676/

For example, let's assume that same wetness does not matter in any case. Let's say I touch blood with wetness with my right hand. My right hand is first mutanajjis. Then with the same wetness I touch my left hand. My left hand becomes second mutanajjis. Then with the same witness I touch my table with my left hand. The table is third mutanajjis. Then if the table touches other things with the same wetness that touched the blood, they do not become najis. This would make it appear that impure wetness do not make other things impure, but this is not true because there are fatawa which clearly show that wetness can transfer impurity independently.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Muhammad A-H

[theinvisibleman]

7 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

For example, let's assume that same wetness does not matter in any case. Let's say I touch blood with wetness with my right hand. My right hand is first mutanajjis. Then with the same wetness I touch my left hand. My left hand becomes second mutanajjis. Then with the same witness I touch my table with my left hand. The table is third mutanajjis. Then if the table touches other things with the same wetness that touched the blood, they do not become najis. This would make it appear that impure wetness do not make other things impure, but this is not true because there are fatawa which clearly show that wetness can transfer impurity independently.

I don't think such a ruling would contradict those fatwa.

In my personal opinion, according to what makes sense to me and having read the opinions of scholars, the wetness that transfers najasa (i.e. minor wetness or droplets) is only the medium for transferring najasa and isn't considered as an individual mutanajjis object.

For me, that is different to something like puddles and qalil bodies of water.

But this is just what makes sense to me and I am no scholar.

[Muhammad A-H]

3 minutes ago, theinvisibleman said:

I don't think such a ruling would contradict those fatwa.

In my personal opinion, according to what makes sense to me and having read the opinions of scholars, the wetness that transfers najasa (i.e. minor wetness or droplets) is only the medium for transferring najasa and isn't considered as an individual mutanajjis object.

For me, that is different to something like puddles and qalil bodies of water.

But this is just what makes sense to me and I am no scholar.

Qalil water and other liquids are still considered to be wetness. For example, sweat is not a large body of liquid, and yet the fatwa of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani is that whatever impure sweat touches becomes impure:

Ruling 125. If a part of the body perspires and that part becomes impure, and the sweat goes from that part to another part, then whichever part the sweat touches becomes impure; and if the sweat does not go to any other part, the rest of the body is pure.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

[theinvisibleman]

2 hours ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Qalil water and other liquids are still considered to be wetness. For example, sweat is not a large body of liquid, and yet the fatwa of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani is that whatever impure sweat touches becomes impure:

Ruling 125. If a part of the body perspires and that part becomes impure, and the sweat goes from that part to another part, then whichever part the sweat touches becomes impure; and if the sweat does not go to any other part, the rest of the body is pure.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

That's what I'm saying though. For me, I wouldn't say that the part of the body that becomes impure is the first mutanajjis, the sweat that has come from there is second mutanajjis, and the parts of the body the sweat reaches are third mutanajjis.

It makes more sense to me that the part of the body that initially becomes impure is first mutanajjis, and then the sweat is the moisture/medium required for the najasa to spread to other parts of the body, that then become second mutanajjis. Certainly the moisture is najis but I don't think it would increase the number of transmissions by itself.

One of the examples on Sayyed Sistani's website reads in a similar way when it is describing how najasa transfers. It does not focus on the moisture that transfers the najasa as a mutanajjis object itself - it only mentions hard physical objects such as the hand, door knob, etc. The small wetness spread between these items is only a means of transfer. 

4 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

I also sent the question to Sayyed Mohammad Baqer Qazwini on the "Ask those who know" and this was our discussion:

 

This is also how I interpret the answers the Sayyed gave. 

[Muhammad A-H]

6 hours ago, theinvisibleman said:

That's what I'm saying though. For me, I wouldn't say that the part of the body that becomes impure is the first mutanajjis, the sweat that has come from there is second mutanajjis, and the parts of the body the sweat reaches are third mutanajjis.

It makes more sense to me that the part of the body that initially becomes impure is first mutanajjis, and then the sweat is the moisture/medium required for the najasa to spread to other parts of the body, that then become second mutanajjis. Certainly the moisture is najis but I don't think it would increase the number of transmissions by itself.

One of the examples on Sayyed Sistani's website reads in a similar way when it is describing how najasa transfers. It does not focus on the moisture that transfers the najasa as a mutanajjis object itself - it only mentions hard physical objects such as the hand, door knob, etc. The small wetness spread between these items is only a means of transfer. 

But in the example I gave, I showed that the wetness that touched blood does not transfer impurity, so then the sweat could not by itself make the other parts of the body impure since nothing touched the solid najis part of the body:

9 hours ago, Muhammad A-H said:

For example, let's assume that same wetness does not matter in any case. Let's say I touch blood with wetness with my right hand. My right hand is first mutanajjis. Then with the same wetness I touch my left hand. My left hand becomes second mutanajjis. Then with the same witness I touch my table with my left hand. The table is third mutanajjis. Then if the table touches other things with the same wetness that touched the blood, they do not become najis. This would make it appear that impure wetness do not make other things impure,

And additionally, according to this view, if you say that wherever the najis sweat flows to becomes second mutanajjis, then what happens when the parts of the body that the najis sweat flowed to touch other things? They would become third mutanajjis even with the same wetness (which is the sweat) according to your view which shows that just because the najis sweat touched another object, it doesn't become second mutanajjis which is just contradictory because you said that it would make other things that it touches second mutanajjis.

For example, if my arm becomes najis and then najis sweat flows from my arm to my hand, you are saying that the hand becomes second mutanajjis due to contacting the najis sweat. But you are also saying that if the hand touches other objects with the same najis sweat, they do not become second mutanajjis, but rather third mutanajjis. Which would suggest that the sweat does not independently transfer impurity.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Muhammad A-H

[theinvisibleman]

20 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

But in the example I gave, I showed that the wetness that touched blood does not transfer impurity, so then the sweat could not by itself make the other parts of the body impure since nothing touched the solid najis part of the body:

But the sweat did touch the solid najis part of the body, because the sweat was the result of that part of the body perspiring, hence becoming moist and spreading the najasa.

21 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

And additionally, according to this view, if you say that wherever the najis sweat flows to becomes second mutanajjis, then what happens when the parts of the body that the najis sweat flowed to touch other things? They would become third mutanajjis even with the same wetness (which is the sweat) according to your view which shows that just because the najis sweat touched another object, it doesn't become second mutanajjis which is just contradictory because you said that it would make other things that it touches second mutanajjis.

There is no contradiction here. To me, the sweat flowing along the body and making the parts it touches second mutanajjis is one action, similar to if you rubbed your najis hand along your arm (without breaking physical contact) and made all along the arm impure in one action.

But then a separate action, such as someone else's hand touching the parts of the body where the najis sweat has flowed to, would be considered a new transmission and hence the other person's hand would become third mutanajjis.

As I say, I am no scholar. This is just my interpretation, based on the fatwas that have been presented as well as the responses posted above.

[theinvisibleman]

35 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Which would suggest that the sweat does not independently transfer impurity.

Exactly, that's the whole premise of Sayed Sistani's viewpoint. The number of transmissions (and also ascertaining whether an object has become najis) is not determined by how many times the original najasa has become moist (and dried) between objects, but rather the number of objects that the najis moisture has touched in the chain.

Whereas Ayatollah Khamenei is of the opposing view.

[Muhammad A-H]

30 minutes ago, theinvisibleman said:

There is no contradiction here. To me, the sweat flowing along the body and making the parts it touches second mutanajjis is one action, similar to if you rubbed your najis hand along your arm (without breaking physical contact) and made all along the arm impure in one action.

But then a separate action, such as someone else's hand touching the parts of the body where the najis sweat has flowed to, would be considered a new transmission and hence the other person's hand would become third mutanajjis.

As I say, I am no scholar. This is just my interpretation, based on the fatwas that have been presented as well as the responses posted above.

But now you are saying that najis sweat makes other things second mutanajjis independently in some cases and in other cases the same sweat does not make other things impure independently, which results in the other things being third mutanajjis. Also the fatwa of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani says whatever part the sweat touches, it becomes impure in the same way, not just the areas around the original najis area, so if someone else touches the sweat, they would become impure just like whatever else the same sweat touches:

Ruling 125. If a part of the body perspires and that part becomes impure, and the sweat goes from that part to another part, then whichever part the sweat touches becomes impure; and if the sweat does not go to any other part, the rest of the body is pure.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

 (235)  مسألة 4: إذا لاقت النجاسة جزءاً من البدن المتعرق لا تسري إلى سائر أجزائه إلا مع جريان العرق

(235) (الا مع جريان العرق): فيتنجس ما جرى عليه العرق المتنجس.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/22/1676/

Edited January 15, 2023 by Muhammad A-H

[Muhammad A-H]

@theinvisibleman I think we can just agree to disagree on this issue.

[theinvisibleman]

3 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

But now you are saying that najis sweat makes other things second mutanajjis in some cases and in other cases the same sweat makes other things third mutanajjis. 

That's in line with the ruling that's being debated here, i.e. that transmission increases even though the wetness is the same and it has just moved to another object.

5 minutes ago, Muhammad A-H said:

Also the fatwa of Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani says whatever part the sweat touches, it becomes impure in the same way, not just the areas around the original najis area, so if someone else touches the sweat, they would become impure just like whatever else the same sweat touches:

Ruling 125. If a part of the body perspires and that part becomes impure, and the sweat goes from that part to another part, then whichever part the sweat touches becomes impure; and if the sweat does not go to any other part, the rest of the body is pure.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2136/

 (235)  مسألة 4: إذا لاقت النجاسة جزءاً من البدن المتعرق لا تسري إلى سائر أجزائه إلا مع جريان العرق

(235) (الا مع جريان العرق): فيتنجس ما جرى عليه العرق المتنجس.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/22/1676/

That's only what you're inferring. Unless I'm mistaken, Ayatollah Sistani makes no mention of what extent parts of the body (or indeed other objects) would be impure, i.e. he does not say whether those parts would be first, second or third mutanajjis. 

I'm only applying the logic that moisture between transmissions does not need to dry to the sweating scenario. There's no reason that this transfer of najasa should be different to any other.

[Muhammad A-H]

38 minutes ago, theinvisibleman said:

Whereas Ayatollah Khamenei is of the opposing view.

Just to add here, if you do not know, there are many scholars, such as Sayyid al-Khoei, Al-Sayyid Fadlallah, Sheikh Noori Hamedani and Sheikh Wahid Khurasani, who say that liquids are independent intermediaries:

(مسألة 415): المتنجس بملاقاة عين النجاسة كالنجس، ينجس ما يلاقيه مع الرطوبة المسرية، وكذلك المتنجس بملاقاة المتنجس، ينجس الماء القليل بملاقاته، وأما في غير ذلك فالحكم بالنجاسة مبني على الاحتياط.

https://www.alkhoei.net/ar/khlib/view/style2/125

http://wahidkhorasani.com/Data/Books/montakhab.pdf

 

 

So Al-Sayyid Khamenei's and Sheikh Fayyad's fatwa and the fatwa of other scholars with the same view is actually opposed to the view of the scholars who say liquids are independent intermediaries, which is why they say objects need to dry after every transmission. 

Sheikh Fayyad explains his view here and it shows his fatwa is opposed to the scholars who say liquids are independent intermediaries:

(مسألة 411): قد تسأل أن المتنجس الثاني وهو المتنجس بواسطة واحدة بينه وبين عين النجس هل ينجس ما يلاقيه؟
والجواب: أنه لا ينجسه على الأظهر، إذا كانت الواسطة بينه وبين عين النجس من الجوامد لا من المائعات.
مثال الأول: ثوب لاقى برطوبته الميتة ثم لاقت يدك وهي رطبة الثوب ولاقى الفراش بعد ذلك يدك برطوبة، فالثوب الذي تنجس بملاقاة عين النجس هو المتنجس الأول، ويدك التي تنجست بملاقاة الثوب يعني بواسطة واحدة بينه وبين عين النجس هي المتنجس الثاني بعد الأول في تسلسل المتنجسات.
وأما الفراش الذي لاقى برطوبة المتنجس الثاني وهو يدك في المثال فهل يتنجس بذلك؟
والجواب: أنه لا يتنجس بذلك على الأظهر، إذ يكون بينه وبين عين النجس واسطتان هما الثوب واليد، فلا تسري النجاسة إلى ما تفصله عن عين النجس واسطتان، وهذا معنى قولنا إن المتنجس الأول ينجس، وإن المتنجس الثاني لا ينجس، ونريد بالمتنجس الأول ما كان متنجسا بعين النجس مباشرة ونريد بالمتنجس الثاني ما كان متنجسا بواسطة واحدة بينه وبين عين النجس.
مثال الثاني: ماء قليل لاقى الميتة ثم وقع الماء على الثوب ولاقى الثوب بعد ذلك الفراش برطوبة، وعلى هذا فبين الفراش وبين عين النجس واسطتان هما الماء القليل والثوب، وحيث أن الواسطة الاولى من المائعات فهي لا تحسب واسطة، وكأن بين الفراش وعين النجس واسطة واحدة وهي الثوب، فتسري النجاسة أي تمتد من عين النجس إلى ملاقيها بواسطة واحدة ولكن على الأحوط.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/803_منهاج-الصالحين-الشيخ-محمد-إسحاق-الفياض-ج-١/الصفحة_172#top