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In the Name of God بسم الله

The births of Lady Nargis and Imam al-Askari AS don't make sense !

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11 hours ago, Sister Sakina said:

Salam everyone,

I'm confused because Imam al-Askari was born in 846 AD while Lady Nargis was born in 832 AD. It doesn't make sense that Lady Nargis would be 14 years older!

Salam. Do you know how old Lady Khadija AS was when she married our Prophet Muhammad SA? 

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On 6/4/2021 at 9:44 AM, Sister Sakina said:

Salam everyone,

I'm confused because Imam al-Askari was born in 846 AD while Lady Nargis was born in 832 AD. It doesn't make sense that Lady Nargis would be 14 years older!

Wa alyklum al Salam sister!

Age didn't and still doesn't matter.

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8 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Salam. Do you know how old Lady Khadija AS was when she married our Prophet Muhammad SA? 

Wa alaykoum al salam, yes we have narrations that say they were the same age or that Lady Khadija was a few years older. The big age gap is mostly driven by the Sunnis. It is similar with the issue of Aisha's marriage. We don't agree with the Sunnis on this matter. 

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On 6/4/2021 at 10:23 PM, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Wa alyklum al Salam sister!

Age didn't and still doesn't matter.

Of course it doesn't, but it doesn't make sense. A gap of 14 years is alot, especially if the woman is the older one

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When you're an Imam you know exactly what kind of person someone is, and Imam al-Askari knew she had it in her to produce the savior of mankind. If she has that on her resume then an age gap doesn't matter, she's mind-meltingly amazing and if anyone should marry her it should be an Imam.

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9 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

When you're an Imam you know exactly what kind of person someone is, and Imam al-Askari knew she had it in her to produce the savior of mankind. If she has that on her resume then an age gap doesn't matter, she's mind-meltingly amazing and if anyone should marry her it should be an Imam.

I agree! Insh'Allah i can learn more about this topic. 

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On 6/5/2021 at 5:15 AM, Sister Sakina said:

Wa alaykoum al salam, yes we have narrations that say they were the same age or that Lady Khadija was a few years older. 

If Lady Khadija AS was 40 years old and our Prophet SA was 25 years old when they married, that is a 15 year difference. It means that age is not the most important thing in a marriage. 

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33 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

If Lady Khadija AS was 40 years old and our Prophet SA was 25 years old when they married, that is a 15 year difference. It means that age is not the most important thing in a marriage. 

I was saying that's the Sunni narrative and not the Shia one. We believe that Lady Khadijah was 25 or slightly older (a few years). 

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On 6/5/2021 at 6:16 AM, Sister Sakina said:

Of course it doesn't, but it doesn't make sense. A gap of 14 years is alot, especially if the woman is the older one

It was pretty common. Fatima (عليها السلام) was 9-10 while Ali (عليه السلام) was 25. That doesn't mean we reject the birth of Imam al Hasan al Mujtaba (عليه السلام).

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On 6/5/2021 at 3:46 PM, Sister Sakina said:

Of course it doesn't, but it doesn't make sense. A gap of 14 years is alot, especially if the woman is the older one

In our world view, it doesn't makes sense. But it makes a lot of sense in the world view of Aimma (عليه السلام) which is the best vision.

Age is never considered a factor for marriage in that vision. Age is in fact calculated and should be calculated through the mental maturity and how mentally and pyschologically grown up a person is. Ayatullah Khoei did Ijtehad in the age of 13. So, he grew up really fast basically. We can sight numerous examples about it like this.

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On 6/4/2021 at 5:44 PM, Sister Sakina said:

Salam everyone,

I'm confused because Imam al-Askari was born in 846 AD while Lady Nargis was born in 832 AD. It doesn't make sense that Lady Nargis would be 14 years older!

In our wonderful era 13-19 year old girls/boys are like 6 year old whining brat. Both male and female mostly reach with pray and hope their maturity in their thirties and forties. But alas, many even in their fifties can whine like little teenagers. If you realize this, then you will realize that it is very bad idea to equalize our era with previous ones, because they are both very different from each other.

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10 hours ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

It was pretty common. Fatima (عليها السلام) was 9-10 while Ali (عليه السلام) was 25. That doesn't mean we reject the birth of Imam al Hasan al Mujtaba (عليه السلام).

I agree but again there different narrations regarding the birth of lady fatimah.

My issue is with the large age gap because Nargis is supposedly older

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9 hours ago, Zainuu said:

In our world view, it doesn't makes sense. But it makes a lot of sense in the world view of Aimma (عليه السلام) which is the best vision.

Age is never considered a factor for marriage in that vision. Age is in fact calculated and should be calculated through the mental maturity and how mentally and pyschologically grown up a person is. Ayatullah Khoei did Ijtehad in the age of 13. So, he grew up really fast basically. We can sight numerous examples about it like this.

I also agree with you, but my confusion stems with lady nargis being much older (if it was the other way round it would be different)..

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8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

In our wonderful era 13-19 year old girls/boys are like 6 year old whining brat. Both male and female mostly reach with pray and hope their maturity in their thirties and forties. But alas, many even in their fifties can whine like little teenagers. If you realize this, then you will realize that it is very bad idea to equalize our era with previous ones, because they are both very different from each other.

Of course I agree, but it comes down to questioning whether Nargis was actually that much older? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best of course. I just wanted to look into it 

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I think we need to address something that comes before marriage 

if imams and prophet married and this is before we even discussed age questions, they never married out of lust or desire 

they didn’t follow some carnal desire for purpose of marriage 

most certainly they were instructed exactly who to marry , they had divine guidance for such calls , their marriages were presupposed in heaven ie arranged by God directly 

if God wanted them to marry a woman who was missing legs or arms due to war or whatever and were 30 years older than them they would have done it , their actions were not driven by desires let’s establish that fact to begin with 

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1 hour ago, theEndIsNear said:

I think we need to address something that comes before marriage 

if imams and prophet married and this is before we even discussed age questions, they never married out of lust or desire 

they didn’t follow some carnal desire for purpose of marriage 

most certainly they were instructed exactly who to marry , they had divine guidance for such calls , their marriages were presupposed in heaven ie arranged by God directly 

if God wanted them to marry a woman who was missing legs or arms due to war or whatever and were 30 years older than them they would have done it , their actions were not driven by desires let’s establish that fact to begin with 

I agree. But there isn't a case of this (at least as far as I know). I wanted to research this further that's all 

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On 6/5/2021 at 3:52 AM, Hameedeh said:

Salam. Do you know how old Lady Khadija AS was when she married our Prophet Muhammad SA? 

its a sunni lie that she was in her 40s.. her eal age was around 27 when she married our prophet sawa

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23 hours ago, Sister Sakina said:

We believe that Lady Khadijah was 25 or slightly older (a few years). 

Please give a link to a Shia resource that states that. 

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4 hours ago, F.M said:

its a sunni lie that she was in her 40s.. her eal age was around 27 when she married our prophet sawa

According to Shia Islam, Lady Khadijah was widowed twice before she married Prophet Muhammad SAW. Her being the similar age as the Prophet is not realistic. She was definitely older than him.  

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/khadijah-daughter-khuwaylid-wife-prophet-muhammad-yasin-t-al-jibouri

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20 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

According to Shia Islam, Lady Khadijah was widowed twice before she married Prophet Muhammad SAW. Her being the similar age as the Prophet is not realistic. She was definitely older than him.  

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/khadijah-daughter-khuwaylid-wife-prophet-muhammad-yasin-t-al-jibouri

Some Shias believe that Lady Khadijah never married anyone before she married Prophet Muhammad SA. 

https://www.al-islam.org/khadijatul-kubra-short-story-her-life-sayyid-ali-asghar-razwy

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5 hours ago, Sister Sakina said:

 I wanted to research this further that's all 

It is interesting to discuss these real historical Islamic marriages. Lady Khadijah was such a wonderful and elegant woman of virtue, who sacrificed everything for Islam.

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12 hours ago, Sister Sakina said:

I also agree with you, but my confusion stems with lady nargis being much older (if it was the other way round it would be different)..

That can happen actually. It makes complete sense.

5 hours ago, F.M said:

its a sunni lie that she was in her 40s.. her eal age was around 27 when she married our prophet sawa

This is the first time I hear she was 27. She was around 40, which is written. 

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8 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This is the first time I hear she was 27. She was around 40, which is written.

Some Shi’a scholars believe she (عليه السلام) was 27 and was never married.

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I'm very sorry for the late reply! But it's very important what everyone has raised a) about the age of Lady Khadijah when she married the Holy Prophet and b) whether she was a virgin/unmarried before that. Below I will share Shia references for what I said earlier.

a) Among the Shia scholars, it is actually commonly believed that Lady Khadijah married at the age of 25 or 28. Even many Sunni historians like ibn Katheer have this belief.

From a longer narration... Ibrahim ibn Ya'qub told us on the authority of Hajjaj ibn al-Minhal on the authority of Hamaad ibn Salamah from Ammar ibn Abi Ammar from Ibn Abbas as Hammad said: 'The messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny) married Khadija with 12 wakiyah (a measurement common at the time) of gold and she was at that time 28 years old.'

REFERENCE: Mohammad ibn Ahmad al-Dalabi - The Pure Offspring of the Prophet  p. 52.

This man was a historian and had good knowledge of genealogy.

حدثنا إبراهيم بن يعقوب ثنا حجاج بن المنهال ثنا حماد بن سلمة عن عمار بن أبي عمار عن ابن عباس - فيما يحسب حماد -.

أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم تزوج خديجة على اثنتي عشرة أوقية ذهبا وهي يومئذ ابنة ثمان وعشرين سنة

الذرية الطاهرة النبوية - محمد بن أحمد الدولابي - الصفحة ٥٢

'Ibn Abbas narrated that when Khadijah married the [Prophet] she was 28 years old.'

REFERENCE: Allamah al-Majlisi - Bihar al-Anwar vol. 16, p. 12.

وعن ابن عباس أنه تزوجها صلى الله عليه وآله وهي ابنة ثماني وعشرين سنة

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٦ - الصفحة ١٢

Khaijdah was 50 when she died and it would have been impossible that she married at 40 years old because Shia and Sunni have agreed she was married to the Prophet for 25 years. And it is also known that the Prophet began his Prophethood at 40. Here are what some Shia scholars say about this. 

'I say that al-Masoodi mentioned that Khadijah died when she was 50 years old.'

REFERENCE: al-Shaykh Ghalib al-Seelawi - al-Anwar al-Sadee'a p. 385.

'Khadija died when she was 50 years old, and she was with the messenger Allah (peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny) for 25 years. 5 of which were before the Prophethood and 10 years after that'.

REFERENCE: al-Shaykh Najah al-Taei - The wives of the Prophet and his daughters p. 31.

أقول: ذكر المسعودي بعده إن في سنة خمسين توفيت خديجة

الأنوار الساطعة - الشيخ غالب السيلاوي - الصفحة ٣٨٥

 

أي أن خديجة ماتت وعمرها خمسون سنة، قضت منه خمسا وعشرين سنة مع رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)، خمس عشرة سنة قبل البعثة وعشر سنوات بعد البعثة

أزواج النبي وبناته - الشيخ نجاح الطائي - الصفحة ٣١

'She died in Mecca before the Hijrah by 3 years and 10 years after the Prophethood.'

REFERENCE: al-Haj Husayn al-Shakari - The Mother of Believers - The Pure Khadijah (peace be upon her) p. 81. 

For all the Arabic readers, this is a great book about the life of Lady Khadijah

وقد توفيت في مكة قبل الهجرة بثلاث سنين - في السنة العاشرة من البعثة

أم المؤمنين خديجة الطاهرة (ع) - الحاج حسين الشاكري - الصفحة ٨١

b) Proof that Khadijah was a virgin when she married the Holy Prophet

It was narrated by Ahmad al-Balarathie and Abu al-Qasim al-Kufi in their books and al-Murtatha in al-Shafi and Abu Ja'far in al-Taqlees that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny): 'Married [Khadijah] when she was a virgin.'

REFERENCE: al-Allamah al-Majlisi - Bihar al-Anwar vol. 22, p. 191 and ibn Shahr A'shoob - Manqib Ale Abi Talib vol. 1, p. 138.

 

وروى أحمد البلاذري وأبو القاسم الكوفي في كتابيهما والمرتضى في الشافي وأبو جعفر في التخليص أن النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله): تزوج بها وكانت عذراء

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ٢٢ - الصفحة ١٩١

 

وروى أحمد البلاذري، وأبو القاسم الكوفي في كتابيهما، والمرتضى في الشافي، وأبو جعفر في التلخيص: ان النبي صلى الله عليه وآله تزوج بها وكانت عذراء

مناقب آل أبي طالب - ابن شهر آشوب - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٣٨

 

There is also no proof in our books that Khadijah gave birth to her children at an old age. There are also many logical arguments in support of the above. We can take this to show that it was uncommon that a man would marry a woman much older than himself and that if it did occur, there surely would have been narrations that discussed this. Th issue is, we have a lot taqseer regarding our Lady Nargis so I hoped to begin a discussion about this

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On 6/7/2021 at 8:48 PM, Sister Sakina said:

I agree but again there different narrations regarding the birth of lady fatimah.

My issue is with the large age gap because Nargis is supposedly older

This was a completely normal thing before and even in places today.

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Posted (edited)

Just in case I confused anyone, i wanted to explain again what I said.

Khadijah married the Prophet SAW when she was 25 or 28 and she was a virgin (unmarried before). The latter I only mentioned because it was brought up. Khadijah is an argument that is often brought up when people discuss marriage when they say 'it's okay to marry a woman much older look the Prophet married Khadijah when she was 40'. Yes it is not wrong to marry a woman much older, and i will never say that, but it is uncommon. And also a ccording to Shia and even many Sunni scholars, we dont believe that khadijah was 40 when she got married. 

Though this is a slightly different argument, i will mention it because often it is brought up too... Aisha did not marry the Prophet when she was 9, at least this is not what Shia scholars believe.

So if all of the above is true, then it would have been very abnormal and uncommon that lady nargis was 14 years older than imam al-askari. because what other example do we have of this? and are there any narrations that discuss this? i hope that helps

 

NOTE: i only brought up khadijah because it was brought up by others

Edited by Sister Sakina
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