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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Nafs (نفس) = The Spirit (روح)?

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On 6/7/2021 at 4:08 PM, layman said:

My understanding...

1 Physical body...the car.  This car consists or made of complex living cells.  Purely physical and can only exist in physical world. The car will be used on a journey (as a lifetime of a person.

 

We become alive...because of Ruh.  The Ruh is blown in our physical body and it is intended for the body to become alive.  

However, we have little knowledge about Ruh...we rather not discuss it.  All we know Ruh is directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Whatever, I wrote are for understanding of Ruh and Souls.  Both are unseens.

Wallahualam 

Salam Alaikom, the example or metaphor you give is not pure imagination, because we all know cars are not made of cells, and that even complex. In this example قوه حس is not used properly so you can, advance it into قوه خیال and work on it there. See what I wrote to Shahrukh K.

But it's very nice, and enjoyed reading it and happy, because your mind will get trained and advance more than this.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

Salam Alaikom, yes it's mentioned but with different name and title which is wrong, that said the last one:  فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ

Salam Brother! 

As you are going through this thread and reading everyone's response with deep interest, you must have known that there is a disagreement between us in the use of word قلب in some of the Quranic verses. 

I have taken out some verses which may have a different meaning of Qalb than this physical organ of ours. 

Quote

Qalb has been used in different meanings in Quran and they are as follows:

1. Qalb in the sense of Aql

إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَذِكْرَىٰ لِمَنْ كَانَ لَهُ قَلْبٌ أَوْ أَلْقَى السَّمْعَ وَهُوَ شَهِيدٌ

50:37) Most surely there is a reminder in this for him who has a heart or he gives ear and is a witness.

Learning is a function of aql and has nothing to do with physical heart. But due to qalb's central role  in the human personality we can understand why aql is mentioned as qalb here.

2. Qalb in the sense of nafs

 زَاغَتِ الْأَبْصَارُ وَبَلَغَتِ الْقُلُوبُ الْحَنَاجِرَ

33:10) and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, 

Hearts literally never reach to throat even when you die. So here again neither heart nor throat refers to our physical organs. Since once throat is the departure point from which something leaves our body, so the nafs (soul) has been mentioned here as heart which reaches its departure point. 

3. Qalb in the sense of centre of our emotions

سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا الرُّعْبَ

8:12) I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.

فَبِمَا رَحْمَةٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ لِنْتَ لَهُمْ ۖ وَلَوْ كُنْتَ فَظًّا غَلِيظَ الْقَلْبِ لَانْفَضُّوا مِنْ حَوْلِكَ

3:159) Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you

4. Qalb in the sense of centre of human personality

5. Qalb in the sense of internal face of human personality

Qalb is reflective of our real personality and who we really are. It reveals whether you are a good person, pious person, a person with purity or a person who is corrupt, who has dual personality etc. 

يَوْمَ لَا يَنْفَعُ مَالٌ وَلَا بَنُونَ

إِلَّا مَنْ أَتَى اللَّهَ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

26:88-89) The day on which property will not avail, nor sons. Except him who comes to Allah with a heart free (from evil).

The day of judgement is the day wherein nothing will help us, with one exception i.e., to come to Allah with a pure or healthy heart (again not referring to our physical heart) which is having that internal reflection of our personality being a healthy one. Our actions and deeds are a reflection of this internal reflection.

Quran also talks about qalbun mubeen or a hopeful heart.

Quran also discuss the opposite of qalb e salim or healthy/pure heart by mentioning the disease of heart

" In their hearts is a disease, so Allah has increased their disease" (2:10)

Edited by Cool
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Some philosophers describes qalb as "quwah" (قوة). The quwwah through which one can perceive what is beyond the capacity of aql. 

 

إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَذِكْرَىٰ لِمَنْ كَانَ لَهُ قَلْبٌ 

In this verse what is meant by qalb? 

Qalb is with everyone in the form of physical organ. It is not something (in case the verse means physical qalb) unique which one could get after intense training. 

So while we are discussing the nafs, we should also take into account all the powers of the nafs. Can we say "qalb" is the power of nafs?

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29 minutes ago, Cool said:

Some philosophers describes qalb as "quwah" (قوة). The quwwah through which one can perceive what is beyond the capacity of aql. 

 

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ

53:11

Here fu'ad (heart) is mentioned as a thing which didn't belied what was seen by the eyes. 

Means Qalb and Fu'ad is/are thing(s) which testify to the truth. 

Now the verse "inna lillahe wa inna ilayhe raje'oon". Here "inna" representing our whole being/nafs which includes the faculties like qalb & aql etc. 

مَنْ خَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ وَجَاء بِقَلْبٍ مُّنِيبٍ

50:33

إِلَّا مَنْ أَتَى اللَّهَ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

26:89

إِذْ جَاء رَبَّهُ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

37:84

So is this qalb a physical organ whose function is now well known to us? Or is it something else? Like aql or you may call it consciousness, a property and is abstract in its nature. 

Can we say qalb is also a property and an abstract thing in its nature? 

I have yet to cite the ahadith of Imams explaining these issues. @Ali.Isa, @layman, @SoRoUsH, do you have access to ahadith explaining these verses?

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On 6/3/2021 at 11:16 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Here's a saheeh narration:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ اَلْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ عُمَرَ اَلْيَمَانِيِّ عَنْ جَابِرٍ اَلْجُعْفِيِّ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : يَا جَابِرُ إِنَّ اَللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى خَلَقَ اَلْخَلْقَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَصْنَافٍ وَ هُوَ قَوْلُ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ كُنْتُمْ أَزْوٰاجاً ثَلاٰثَةً `فَأَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ مٰا أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ `وَ أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَشْئَمَةِ مٰا أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَشْئَمَةِ `وَ اَلسّٰابِقُونَ اَلسّٰابِقُونَ `أُولٰئِكَ اَلْمُقَرَّبُونَ » فَالسَّابِقُونَ هُمْ رُسُلُ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمُ اَلسَّلاَمُ وَ خَاصَّةُ اَللَّهِ مِنْ خَلْقِهِ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ خَمْسَةَ أَرْوَاحٍ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُدُسِ فَبِهِ عَرَفُوا اَلْأَشْيَاءَ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَبِهِ خَافُوا اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُوَّةِ فَبِهِ قَدَرُوا عَلَى طَاعَةِ اَللَّهِ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلشَّهْوَةِ فَبِهِ اِشْتَهَوْا طَاعَةَ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ كَرِهُوا مَعْصِيَتَهُ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ اَلَّذِي بِهِ يَذْهَبُ اَلنَّاسُ وَ يَجِيئُونَ وَ جَعَلَ فِي اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ أَصْحَابِ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ رُوحَ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَبِهِ خَافُوا اَللَّهَ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْقُوَّةِ فَبِهِ قَدَرُوا عَلَى طَاعَةِ اَللَّهِ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلشَّهْوَةِ فَبِهِ اِشْتَهَوْا طَاعَةَ اَللَّهِ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ اَلَّذِي بِهِ يَذْهَبُ اَلنَّاسُ وَ يَجِيئُونَ

 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother! 

As you are going through this thread and reading everyone's response with deep interest, you must have known that there is a disagreement between us in the use of word قلب in some of the Quranic verses. 

I have taken out some verses which may have a different meaning of Qalb than this physical organ of ours. 

Alaikom l-Salam

Sure but what has the quote to do with qalb! In this hadith which is Sahih; put here by dear SoRoUsH the name of a phase/kind of ruh is ruh madraj and its function is hayat. This hadith is mentioned 2 more times in our ahadith sources with some differences, as mentioning ruh Al hayat both time which is not correct, because ruh Al hayat in this context becomes ruh Al ruh which is unnecessary to mention. رُوحَ الْحَيَاةِ فَبِهِ دَبَّ وَ دَرَجَ

So the name is ruh madraj with characteristics such as hayat, daraj... I saw siblings using alot here the title of ruh Al hayat. Anyways even ahadith Sahih in Arabic needs فقه الحدیث specifically and فقه اللغه generally.

Lastly I would love to participate in the thread of qalb and fuad that is much more advance than this thread and difficult, it's like talking about inside characteristics of Serat mustaqim that has as subject to do with human being. But here we have to try to describe the specific issue brought forth by the first post and generalize it in a way so we understand and unify this two opinions and get to know in this vital issue Serat Al mustaqim itself to begin with; 1. Usually philosophers see's and describe nafs and spirit as one when explaining and 2. Theologians which say it's two, and describe them in another way. 

 

22 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

#1) Weak

#2) Weak

However, the notion that there are two ears on the heart is supported in narrations. Also, the notion that there's a shaytan and a guide on the heart is supported, too. 

Nevertheless, this narration that you posted, with its wordings ad they are, is weak.

#3) Weak

#4) Weak

#5) Weak

If you disagree with my assessment, I'm certainly open to hear your evaluation of the isnad of these narrations. It must be added that most of them didn't have any sanad. 

I pulled out a few keywords to search for them in other books, but didn't find any narrations, similar in content, with acceptable isnad.

So, if your views are based on these narrations, then they're based on weak narrations; implying we can't know if these are the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or not, and even if they are, we can't know how accurately they have been transmitted. 

I wouldn't rely on these narrations, but obviously, you have a choice. 

Salam, thanks for going after them, but usually I use the website; they have also android app for it with all Shia hadith books. And am also aware of the issue of asnad of Bihar l-Anwar. But weak sanad does not mean inside the wordings have also problem because that is worked on, in fiqh l-hadith.

I have not put any specific views, just giving nazm, is saying shahwat is not only lust, and that sexual pleasure, something that is out of Sahih ahadith. Or that people think in paradise there is huris just because of Sahih hadith do they not ponder تدبر. When in fact huris could mean, maybe something else and not women!?

The issue of accurate transmission can be used against ahadith with Sahih sanad, the issue is there is nothing wrong to see these ahadith and ponder over them but in 2nd view. Firstly we have to view and find the Sahih ahadith on the matter 2nd nothing wrong to read weak ahadith and get inspired and use usul fiqh and hikmat and logic and bring for the Qur'an to see if it's content is right and good.

I rely on Wahy, than proven history of Ahl l-Bait Peace upon Them; doings sayings &approvals(naql) and aql.

Alas brother I would love that there was a culture and people mentioning in books or Islamic articles in hawza like Ayatollah Khorasani only Sahih and mutawatir ahadith with sanad and maneuver a little over sanad then use it's content to strengthen or prove views. Or at least mention if it's Sahih or anything else...

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21 hours ago, Cool said:

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ

53:11

Here fu'ad (heart) is mentioned as a thing which didn't belied what was seen by the eyes. 

Means Qalb and Fu'ad is/are thing(s) which testify to the truth. 

Now the verse "inna lillahe wa inna ilayhe raje'oon". Here "inna" representing our whole being/nafs which includes the faculties like qalb & aql etc. 

مَنْ خَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ وَجَاء بِقَلْبٍ مُّنِيبٍ

50:33

إِلَّا مَنْ أَتَى اللَّهَ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

26:89

إِذْ جَاء رَبَّهُ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

37:84

So is this qalb a physical organ whose function is now well known to us? Or is it something else? Like aql or you may call it consciousness, a property and is abstract in its nature. 

Can we say qalb is also a property and an abstract thing in its nature? 

I have yet to cite the ahadith of Imams explaining these issues. @Ali.Isa, @layman, @SoRoUsH, do you have access to ahadith explaining these verses?

Salam Bro,

I think the heart is to balance up and guide the nafs so the souls will not go astray.  When the souls enter the body, it is a new territory and the souls is very unfamiliar with. The heart will guide the human souls from worldly realm (rational, emotional and perception) to spiritual realm (belief and witnessing the Greatness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).

The Qalb is one stage of the Heart.

What do you think of the lectures below? 8 series of lectures. 

(1) (1/8) al-Ṣadr, al-Qalb, al-Fou`ād & al-Lub. - YouTube

I am hoping others can put more resources from our Imams, so we can learn.

Wallahualam.

 

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On 6/3/2021 at 8:34 PM, Cool said:

Perhaps there is one ruh in us which is life giving. Rest of three resides "with" believers instead of inside.

Salam Alaikom, what you mean -rest of three reside "with"-. I try to explain myself and try to turn thought or understanding into words. Don't know if it's fathomable to others or not or how much success I have when doing this convert process. At start here my first posts may not be good but Insha Allah I have warmth up for more and better writing. I recommend to challenge our selves and describe with more words, this way the mind finds its way...

On 6/3/2021 at 5:08 PM, SoRoUsH said:

So, we need to qualify your statement. If all of the Ruhs inside of us leave, then we die. However, we know for a fact, that Ruh al-iman leaves, when the believers sin, and they don't drop dead. 

Is Nafs our consciousness?

Your view of Nafs makes it seem like it is the same as our Consciousness. 

We know according to narrations that Ruh and Aql reside in the heart. We have no narration stating that the Nafs is in the heart. 

In my opinion, there's a gradient of things existing. Ruh inside our heart is if a very subtle nature. Nafs, whatever it is, is less subtle than Ruh, but certainly more subtle than our physical bodies. 

In my opinion, The Heart functions as a transcriber of Ruh's light. Our Nafs reads and performs whatever the heart transcribes. And it is our hearts that is influenced by our deeds. The more closely we follow the Shari'a, the more accurately will the light from the Ruh be transcribed for the Nafs; the more influence will the Ruh have on us. 

The issue is that the cannot necessarily be inside, because the relation of jism and ruh is not ruh- a thing - being inside a vessel called jism (if this is the case than it should be the opposite!?). Hokamah call the relation between them with terminological word (تَعلُّق تدبیری). With other words the relation of nafs...

We have to think example sun rays come inside the tree and gets collected which we can later do fire, but this does not mean sun is inside the tree! What kind of inside, there is different kinds of 'inside', and for this point we need to look the Sahih narrations.

Ruh from aalam amr and jism from aalam khalq is not possible to be together at all and it's here the issue of nafs and qalb comes in. When ruh is by itself in aalam amr we can call it ruh and when jism is by itself in aalam khalq we can call it jism generally but if it's a human shape matter, we call it human corpse. But when nafs is created by these two, we necessarily don't call them by the same name when they where alone. That consciousness; is what jism gives, how jism affects, because the relationship is two ways. Ruh gets knowledge and understanding of aalam khalq which it had not  before and inturn gives life to jism. Badan which is alive should be used in relation to nafs, as such the light which is in turn knowledge and so on... Spirit gets knowledge through the eyes and the movement of eyes is because of spirit. But the eye have movement not understanding of what it's focused on, rather that focus nafs see's and understands.

Maybe we have narrations stating we have heart in the nafs, or the so called inner self of nafs (heart) which was mentioned here?! Albeit the issue of qalb can be relevant to this topic.

With subtle you mean here density which could be improper!? 

The issue of نور light is also mentioned here. For light maybe proper to use the terminology called 'صورت'. Just saying so have it in our minds. Am trying to go from قوه خیال into قوه عقل by introducing terminology... 

A question: do the angels in aalam amr or the spiritual world have body according to their needs in there? Could that body be of light and that light having ruh, cause things cannot exist without ruh!?

On 6/9/2021 at 7:55 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Isn’t the Nafs traditionally translated to “ego” or what we conceive as “the self” and Ruh translated to “consciousness” or “spirit” under the command of God? Is this backed by narrations? Thanks 

Ego would be good to use for nafs ammarah a state of nafs. The self or soul could be general and it could mean nafs nabati, nafs heywani, nafs insani...

On 6/9/2021 at 8:29 AM, layman said:

Salam,

"Inna lillahi wa inna hi rajiuun".  We are in the journey.  From duality to Tawhid.

Nafs...Duality (we got separated from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), and some may term it as ego. Because it has separated and can make own choices. Ruh is the stage of tawhid (we return to Him).

We are in the state of duality (Nafs) and in the journey toward Tawhid (the self is then controlled by Ruh).

Before we (the inner self) reaches to stage of Ruh, we have to enter the world of barzakh using the Qalb (the Heart) so we can witness the unseen (Heart have eyes that can see).  Then only we can elevate to higher stage (with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Permission).

1.  At first, we as human (at nafs or duality level), we want guidance and we turn to taqwa.

2.  Then we enter the unseen (use the qalb) through our belief.

3.  Then we establish prayer (clean our souls from closed type sins (fahshar) and opened type sins (mungkar).

4.  On the physical side, whatever we get from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we give out for goodness.

5.  We believe in whatever rules laid in Quran.

6.  And we return to  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Tawhid) while in this world.  (the self return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))..  Wa bil akhirah tu hom yukinoon.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) uses the word "Yaqiin".  Meaning we witness akhirah (the End journey)...and what we will see?  Allah, Muhammad and aali Muhammad...Totally LIGHT.  I put light, because cannot explain the situation.  When Rasul (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in mikraj, he reached that stage (Akhirah).

Tawhid means oneness, one signature in all ayats of Allah. Than there is duality. Than there is multiplicity (three or more we call multi and not trinity.) We don't believe in multi and duality. We only see oneness, which is sign of one rab. Oneness is true and duality in reality non-existent. Existence of two creation does not mean duality exist rather in both of those two creation of Allah and all ayats we see only oneness which is the signature and action of Allah.

Why nafs duality lvl? Try to explain more what was in the mind. Why from duality to tawhid, why not from multi to tawhid!

On 6/9/2021 at 8:50 AM, 313_Waiter said:

 

On 6/6/2021 at 11:36 PM, Shahrukh K said:

Ruh is uncreated and cannot be destroyed, it is from Allah, nafs is creation of Allah.

I thing this notion of uncreated is in Buddhism if am not wrong! 

On 6/7/2021 at 5:02 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Wa alaikum asSalaam

Ruh is the source of light and intellect. It can't make bad decisions. However, based on our deeds, the amount of light emanated from it could vary. 

It is our nafs, which is closely intertwined with the body, that makes the decisions. 

Sure

On 6/8/2021 at 10:57 PM, Cool said:

وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا

فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا

91:7-8

It appears that according to Quran, Ruh is not the nafs.

These are two different yet interrelated things. Ruh is necessary component of body & soul. Soul itself needs ruh as well as body to exist. 

Consider to tie one free shoe lace of one shoe, not a pair. The lace is one than right and left like DNA inside the shoe (not free anymore), now suddenly its two, now you tie the two or do their aqd. It's this tie or aqd we are trying to figure out. Oh wait when you start the tie you start from the left or right because all details matters. This duality is not because of shoe lace, rather it's because of shoe. When two creation cooperate with each other such limitations exist, and of course things need each other, only Allah is free from need. This is a simple مثال but one can give more complex examples like tree. Or the example of the laptop above...

On 6/9/2021 at 7:30 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Not completely. 

First, there are different types of ruh. Are you saying all different types of ruh are light, implying different types of light? 

Second, there's a narration that mention God sent a ruh to the prophet and then made it into light to function as a guide. Therefore, ruh, itself, isn't light, but it can be made into light, if God wills. 

No. Ruh nafs, and qalb are three distinct things; not three different words for the same thing. 

Not quite. We must remain consistent and our understanding cannot transgress beyond the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). For example, to say that ruh, qalb, and nafs are the same thing, contradicts the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

These verses would make just as much sense, if not more, if nafs was translated as "Consciousness."

This makes sense. 

Nafs doesn't turn into ruh, but the light of ruh would shine perfectly on nafs/consciousness, making it easy for the latter to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Right.

Consciousness of what, if the light of ruh shines on nafs is weird because the nafs is a median between the two which the light and worldly body interact with each other. The source of body is ماده and the source of light is spirit. They can't have direct contact without a median which could be called the soul or more in detail qalb. Qalb is the centre. Which input and output goes through and affects the growth of nafs.

On 6/9/2021 at 11:01 AM, layman said:

Salam Bro,  I believe you are more aware about this issue than myself.  Please educate me.

Level of certainty (all will happen through "the self and inner self " via physical eyes and inner eyes (the heart) ).  The inner self can witness certainty with his knowledge or belief (ilm ul yaqeen).  Or witness it with eyes (ayn ul yaqeen) because we know seeing is believing.  And beyond it (I guess melted in haqq and you will know what haqq is).

What has yaqeen to do with this discussion. I think it's not necessary.

On 6/9/2021 at 4:18 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Ruh should be translated as "spirit", definitely not "soul." 

"Ego", as we think and talk about it, isn't a good translation for nafs. Because, for example, we don't think of who as leaving the body when we are sleeping, but nafs does leave the body. So, I think, a better translation for nafs would be "consciousness."

It's why I wrote this below so I don't forget, to use ego as nafs ammarah which is for human nafs and does not have any usage for animal nafs. And consciousness would at best be a translation of nafs lawamah. So a state of nafs insani and not the nafs insani itself.

Do you thing this insideness, how is it practiced; is it like a driver goes inside car (ظرف و مظروف) at day time than at night leaves it for وطن. Can we ponder and put more conditions so we can have a better picture.

BEING: isn't this for, let's check hadith! what to name it...

روح←نفس→جسم

How can we explain it based on tawhid thought and mindset so no three or duality is visible...

Again, nafs does not need to be only consciousness or mindset, rather it's what it gets and absorbs, consumes from either jism or ruh. Ruh has a reality and jism another reality, what do they exchange that the nafs benefits of it and grow accordingly. Because there is no guarantee that we will have ruh Iman and this human bodily form in judgement day.

GROWTH: isn't this for mother's womb...

نفس انسانی

↓↑

نفس حیوانی

↓↑

نفس نباتی

Here we mean not any nafs but nafs insani. Of course in nafs insani other nufus and characteristics exists, our nafs grows into being nafs insani. So when we talk about them while talking about human being, because it's dependent on human nafs and not independent. So no independent talk of nafs Hawani.

PERFECTION: isn't it for this world!

نفس اماره← نفس لوامه← نفس مطمئنه

Why not think as big as possible, there is seed, there is tree, and there is fruit, and mostly inside fruit there is again seed. What kind of صعود و نزول is this... Some may think only like this, there is the roots and there is the branches and the thing in-between connecting them or the barzakhi. This barzakh was easy to figure out and maybe even to explain, but the barzakh of fruit or the alone seed may not be easy to figure out.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

I know  حس خیال and عاقله but what is قوه ?

Basically the power or tools you have to reach the truth and elevate yourself as human being. I could of course for example only say Hess, but Hess is a tool and power given from Allah for us to explore the visible. The visible world we are in; is the world of شهود. Will explain later. But unfortunately people are after seeing barzakh and call that شهود?! In old times, please pay attention; the boundaries of these three 'faculties' where not clear and well known. They mixed inspiration with what the physically saw and explored and like this the aql could not properly and easily make intellectual argumentation or bring forth logical reasoning for the humans findings.

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6 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

Salam Alaikom,

 

Tawhid means oneness, one signature in all ayats of Allah. Than there is duality. Than there is multiplicity (three or more we call multi and not trinity.) We don't believe in multi and duality. We only see oneness, which is sign of one rab. Oneness is true and duality in reality non-existent. Existence of two creation does not mean duality exist rather in both of those two creation of Allah and all ayats we see only oneness which is the signature and action of Allah.

Why nafs duality lvl? Try to explain more what was in the mind. Why from duality to tawhid, why not from multi to tawhid!

Alaikum Salam,

If you see it from the God's toward creations...yes, everything is HIM (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If you see from the human world view, he will see the Creator and Creation....good/bad, Light/darkness, Tawhid/shirk, and so on.  This is the meaning of duality (from what I understood).

When the Soul is separated from the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it descended to a new territory (in the body of a human) where it has to make the choice between Tawhid / shirk.  By nature, all souls are with Oneness before the entering the body and upon entering the body (inside the womb) until the aql is developed and can take the responsibility to carry on the inherence Oneness through world tests.  By nature all humans believe in "Superior Being".  But when exposed to worldly realm, the nature is clouded and need ways to be cleaned.

[Shakir 31:25] And if you ask them who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say: Allah.

[Shakir 43:87] And if you should ask them who created them, they would certainly say: Allah. Whence are they then turned back?

 

he Holy Prophet said:

"Every child is born a Muslim (with the nature of submitting to Allah and following His laws) but the parents make the child a Jew, a Christian, or a Magian."

[Shakir 30:30] Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men

We are in the process to returning from duality to our original state (Oneness) from the moment we are born.

 

Wallahualam

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Wlakumassalam,

On 6/20/2021 at 10:18 PM, Ali.Isa said:

based on what mindset are you saying ruh is uncreated please explain?

I need time to answer this.

 

On 6/20/2021 at 10:18 PM, Ali.Isa said:

Very nice example, and great usage of the power of imagination. But it could BE more presice. You broke the example when mentioning ruh as user. From example which is made by the power of imagination for us to understand things you came into the real world. So you did not complete the مثال. 

You combined قوه حس and قوه خیال improperly thus misusing قوه عاقله which makes...

We have to distinguish seer from the seen that means knower and the known. The entire world all that exist falls in one of these two
categories seer or seen knower or known.
The difference is easy to discern you as a conscious being are the seer, the knower. You are the one that know the existence of everything and anything that can be. you are the knowing subject
and everything else consist of various objects known to you. From tiny speck of dust to great mountains. What ever known to you as an object is different or separate to you the knower. For example i am typing on this laptop is known to me therefore it is separate from me. The cloth i am wearing is separate from me.

What about this body ?
This body is an object known to me in the same way that my laptop known to me. The body must be different from me, the knower of the body.
The hardness of the laptop belongs to laptop not to me, the colour of my cloth belongs to the cloth not to me, but when it comes to body things get really confusing. This body is a male body and the maleness of the body should belong to the body, not to me. Why should i say i am male. My cloth is pink i do not say that i am pink.
Even though this body and cloth both belong to me i have a different relationship with them. I possess this body and i possess my cloth but body seems to be more than a possession.
What makes this body different than a cloth ?
It is because of veil of ignorance or Nafs my body pervaded by  sense of touch i feel sensation throughout my body but i do not feel anything when a cloth is touched. We do not have any sensation in our nail and hair that is why we can cut them. But we cannot cut our fingers because of presence of sensation. Even so this is a gross mistake to consider this body is different from anything like cloth merely because it has some sensation. What happens when a part of your body is numb after a dentist appointment when anaesthetic is used, your lip might feel like a foreign object stuck onto your face some how.
This body is an object known to you and you are the conscious being who knows your body. 
All this is because of non recognition of our true self.

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On 6/20/2021 at 10:18 PM, Ali.Isa said:

when you look yourself in mirror\ex.phone, whatever you do you see. There is the mirror and there is you, both outside and in the mirror, it's here which gets complicated, because of precision and the issues of time and space and this and that... Tawhid and rules of tawhid governs also on human inventions.

The mirror reflects the image, but the image does not improve the mirror. You are neither the mirror nor the image in the mirror. Having perfected the mirror so that it reflects correctly, truly, you can turn the mirror round and see in it a true reflection of yourself -- true as far as the mirror can reflect. But the reflection is not yourself -- you are the seer of the reflection. Do understand it clearly -- whatever you may perceive you are not what you perceive.  
You can see both the image and the mirror. You are neither. Who are you? Now, Can you separate yourself both from the mirror and the image in the mirror and stand completely alone, all by yourself?  

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On 6/24/2021 at 1:31 AM, Ali.Isa said:

Salam Alaikom, what you mean -rest of three reside "with"-

Alaikas-Salam!!

Well I need to rethink on what was said by me in light of ahadith quoted by you and Soroush. 

On 6/22/2021 at 11:55 AM, layman said:

Salam Bro,

I think the heart is to balance up and guide the nafs so the souls will not go astray

Alaikas Salam!!

Brother you have used nafs & soul in this sentence and I am confused what you mean by soul here!!

By soul, do you mean "ruh" or "nafs"?

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21 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

This body is an object known to you and you are the conscious being who knows your body. 

Lets learn our relationship with our body. Are we conscious beings prior to coming to this form (body)? 

Are we conscious beings in the womb of our mothers? Are we conscious beings when we were "nutfatin amshaj" (fertilized egg)? Are we conscious beings in the "aslab" (plural of صلب) or loins of our forefathers? 

We are "subjects" who change forms, not by our own will. We are things known and determined. Who you think are we?

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46 minutes ago, Cool said:

Who you think are we?

To know what you are, you must first investigate and know what you are not.
Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that --nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.

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Just now, Shahrukh K said:

you must first investigate and know what you are not.

Have you done the investigation?

If yes, please share "what you're not".

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Cool said:

Alaikas Salam!!

Brother you have used nafs & soul in this sentence and I am confused what you mean by soul here!!

By soul, do you mean "ruh" or "nafs"?

Bro, my writing was intentional. We are from Allah and we are returning to Him.  Our soul was in the state of Ruh before we descended to this world and given a body.  Ruh is the original essense of the Soul.  When the soul enters the body and given the free will, it turns into Nafs (lower stage).  When i refer to Nafs, it is a soul that has free will, and the soul that in the state of Nafs has to decide whether to be with Tawhid (return to Ruh state) or remain undecided.

I qoute from Shahīd Muṭahharī .... When the human soul is dominated and ruled by desires and passions they call it nafs. When it reaches the stage of bearing Divine knowledge, it is called qalb. When the light of Divine love dawns within it, they call it ruh.” 

It depends on how much Light the souls can accommodate.  If it has reached total Tawhid (the Light dominate the Soul), it is a Ruh...meaning the Soul has transformed into higher / original state... the Ruh.  The soul has returned to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and can be in company of other Ruh.  We need to return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while we are in this world, so our soul can be stripped off from sins (deviate from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will) or impurity.

And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows us to return to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by using the Heart instead of the whole soul. It is lot easier to clean the heart than the whole soul.  We must practice to return to Him during Salah (prayer).  We keep returning and stay longer in the state Tawhid (Ruh) using the heart until we strip off the soul from the state of Nafs and transforms the soul to higher state.

The video below shows a simple way to bring the soul from the state of Naf to a higher state in a split second using the faculty of heart.  Anyone can experiment it. Only 7 minutes to understand and learn.  It will touch the Fu'ad (the deepest part of the heart) and passes through the Sadr, Saghaf and Qalb.. with ease.

 

 

Wallahualam 

Edited by layman
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18 hours ago, layman said:

Ruh is the original essense of the Soul. 

Seems like you are of the opinion of Mulla Sadra. Theory of substantial motion ( حركة الجوهرية).

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17 hours ago, Cool said:

Seems like you are of the opinion of Mulla Sadra. Theory of substantial motion ( حركة الجوهرية).

My understanding derived from 

 إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

 

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7 hours ago, layman said:

My understanding derived from 

 إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

I admire Mulla Sadra for his work brother.

The pleasant smell in rose, emerges upon the maturity of the flower. The flower itself becomes extinct but that pleasant smell can be preserved as scent (عرق). That smell was not there in flower from the beginning. It is the substantial motion which cause the flower to mature and to start producing its pleasant smell. 

So when you say ruh becomes nafs, it might be due to substantial motion. That's what I thought about your statement.

On 6/26/2021 at 5:06 AM, layman said:

 Ruh is the original essense of the Soul.  When the soul enters the body and given the free will, it turns into Nafs (lower stage). 

 

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On 6/25/2021 at 9:06 PM, layman said:

I qoute from Shahīd Muṭahharī .... When the human soul is dominated and ruled by desires and passions they call it nafs. When it reaches the stage of bearing Divine knowledge, it is called qalb. When the light of Divine love dawns within it, they call it ruh.” 

I'm not sure why you keep posting this quote, since it is not supported by any acceptable narrations from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). This is not what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) teach. 

If you think otherwise, show any acceptable authentic narrations, with their isnad, that indicates any form of support for this viewpoint. 

Thanks!

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On 6/28/2021 at 9:07 AM, SoRoUsH said:

I'm not sure why you keep posting this quote, since it is not supported by any acceptable narrations from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). This is not what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) teach. 

If you think otherwise, show any acceptable authentic narrations, with their isnad, that indicates any form of support for this viewpoint. 

Thanks!

Salam Brother,

We (our souls) are what we believe in. Some were classified as kafir, musyriks, munafiq, fasiq, muslim, mukmin, mutaqqi  mukliseen, ... so.

The souls change in status based on our state of believe (iman).

All human souls when they arrived to this world, their initial state at the level of Nafs.  When the baby is hungry, the baby will cry loudly for food.  Then they will grow up using their soul at the level of nafs.  Nafs is needed for survival of the physical side of humans.

All human have something that can be used to upgrade the souls.  Angels don't have it.  They are static.

We call that entity as the heart.  The heart that located in the soul determines the level of souls.  As a baby, the heart is not yet mature.  When the mind and senses (physical part) reach maturity, the heart is important to upgrade the souls.

Those who made their heart to reach at the highest level can make their souls operate all levels correctly...level of nafs, qalb, and ruh.

Ruh signifies as highest level in spirituality that a soul can reach.  At this stage the Soul will not die...they live on.

If the soul stuck at the level of Nafs, then the soul need to be cleaned when the person dies, in barzakh.

Most human souls operate at the level of Nafs.  We will be at Barzakh.

That is the reason why we also call the human souls as Nafs...because majority of humans operate their self at that level.

Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) can operate his soul at different levels. Therefore, he can lead.

Ahlulbayt operates their souls from nafs to highest level at will when the situation need them to be.  They look normal human from ouside, but they are beyond normal.  They can see things that our eyes cannot see.  Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) see Jibrail (عليه السلام).

Brother, this is my understanding.  You are welcome to disagree.  So i may also learn from you.

Wallahualam.

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On 6/9/2021 at 7:58 PM, BleedKnee said:

I always thought of Nafs as the ego. Our sense of an individual identity. That's where jihad an-nafs comes from I think. 

Salam Alaikom, excuse all for delay. Through terminology we try to explain things in a more precise way and a shortcut for understanding. In previous posts on this matter I have written, and this added over those writings. The spirit and jism could be called عَرَض respective to each other. But respective to nafs(any nafs be it of bacteria, plants, animals) called طول. And the different stage of nafs(nafs insani we mean), like nafs ammarah (ego; a good translation for nafs ammarah), lawamah and mutmainah can be called respective to each other عمق. So with other words نظام عرضی، نظام طولی and نظام عمقی. Am writing these so we can try to shape limits and boundaries...

Please pay attention, both molk and malakot is outer for us but for each other no.

On 6/10/2021 at 4:02 AM, layman said:

Salam,

This is my understanding.

When the "I" exist in the Nafs, then that is Ego.  When the "I" ceased to exist, and replaced with the Real Owner (Rabbil aalamin), then the Nafs turned into "Slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "

From that point on, it is up to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to steer the Nafs in the Ship of Salvation (Muhammad wa aale Muhammad).

May all of us remove the Ego in our Nafs.

Salam, I have to firstly; thank you for putting so much effort and contributing, and brainstorming...

Necessarily the ego(nafs ammarah) does not need to be a thing to than be removed, from nafs, rather it could be a state of nafs, it's here strive/jihad comes in picture, to try our best and grow right and properly, even if the environment is suitable for the nafs to stay in nafs ammarah and grow like cancer without proper planning. Albeit the ammarah state is both ammarah be hosn and ammarah be سوء. So with muraqiba and muhasibeh, ammarah be hosn can be guided and not just doing good without aim and planning.

On 6/9/2021 at 11:42 PM, Shahrukh K said:

The truth or essence of who you are is totally unaffected of anything. The true self is your inner divinity or your divine nature or the presence of God within you. Rooh, your essential nature is full, complete perfect. It is the true source of happiness. However this inner reality is well hidden it concealed or covered by veil of ignorance. That inner reality remain unknown, unrecognised, unrealised. But the inner reality is actually the truth of yourself so how can you remain unknown ?
This is the problem here, a problem that we can call self non recognition. 
Self non recognition means failure to know your true nature to be full, complete.
This veil of ignorance conceal the divine reality within you so it must be removed. Ignorance is of course can be removed by knowledge. Ignorance of your true nature can be removed by knowledge of your true self. This self knowledge can be gain through Quran and only Quran.
The teaching in Quran will lead you step by step to discover who you are. The discovery of your true nature is results in complete freedom from suffering.

What is your true nature?
That which exist unconditionally. To exist unconditionally is to be timeless eternal unborn uncreated. Existing eternally before your present birth. You are consciousness unlike the insentient things like rocks and clouds etc. You have the power to know to feel to experience things. Whenever you say "i"  you refer to your true nature that is rooh. Rooh is the core or essence of who you are.
While you are sleeping or in a coma the body is gone in a manner of speaking, yet you will exist.

Extraordinary qualities of your true nature is concealed by the veil of ignorance.
Veil of Ignorance so to speak is not totally opaque it is somewhat transparent like thin sheer fabric. if an object is covered by this kind of fabric we will know that something is there but you would not know what it is. ignorance partially obscure your true nature.
Suppose you are completely free from veil of ignorance how would you look upon this body?
If you truly discovered yourself to be a conscious being, utterly independent of your body that will change the way you perceive this body. As the veil of ignorance getting thinner and thinner allowing the reality to appear with more and more clarity, you will come to know your extraordinary qualities of your true nature.

Salam, reality is واقعیت and truth is حقیقت. What are their respective relation to each other? ...

"Self non recognition means failure to know your true nature to be full, complete.
This veil of ignorance conceal the divine reality within you so it must be removed."

In my opinion instead of using true nature, it's better to use true creation, our true creation; the true creation of human!

"If you truly discovered yourself to be a conscious being, utterly independent of your body that will change the way you perceive this body"

When you say inner nature... inner nature respective to what, respective to what it's inner; if it's respective to jism, than jism is our true outer nature(creation).

Nafs is in need of body بدن always even in paradise( attention I did not say nafs is in need of jism, the corpse); exactly the one بدن we have now(now I don't care that it's maadah ماده get changed and cells die and so on and so forth).

You travel to barzakh at the time of death, not getting annihilation and removed from existence, to not need the body(respective your body does not get annihilated). If ruh was supposed to be without a body, at first it was it, why did Allah reassigned it to jism.

Lastly we have ضد like knowledge and ignorance and we have زوج like 'example حُب and لبّ'... Pay attention both examples are from malakot and not molk.

On 6/10/2021 at 5:47 AM, layman said:

Nafs can have acquired Characteristics.

Please explain more.

On 6/10/2021 at 6:04 AM, layman said:

3. For the sake of discussion, you refer the Nafs as Consciousness, i refer it as Inner Self (unseen).

SINCE the Nafs is similar characteristics as to RUH (but it not full blown Ruh because the total Ruh has no free wills), the NAFS CAN LEAVE the physical body during sleep.

For some selected individuals, the Nafs can leave the body at anytime.

The actual Ruh that control the body cannot leave the body. If that Ruh leaves, the body will experience physical death. 

What do you mean with inner self, do you mean soul? Or inner self is different than soul for you?

There is difference between jism and badan, does the nafs disconnect itself from jism or badan!? Badan has life whilst jism necessarily does not need to have life; that said nafs is a bridge which ruh can give life to jism.

Pay attention the name of ruh is different like ruh aql or ruh Iman whilst we know in many narrations aql and Iman is described as Noor. So specifically when we talk about human who possess Noor in grades and life in grades, we use the nafs, to combine these two and other words could be the I or personality for us to use.

We call a jism; a badan because of life ruh has given it. And we call the spirit; Noor because of awareness jism has given it (of ماده). So a healthy nafs has both life and awareness(or moral virtues) through both jism and ruh, and it's what matters for it. If the ruh and jism for sometime have weak connection it's because of the missing bridge. And whilst the nafs do not perform its duty as bridge and closed input and output, it does not mean it loses the power of life(قدرت) and awareness of knowledge it has previously got.

Hint: If sleep is the brother of death, does it mean sleep is a temporary journey and not permanent. By pondering on this مثال things can get clear...

2ndly when we eat the benefit goes to jism or body! Does eating give life and keep alive the body?!

On 6/14/2021 at 4:41 AM, layman said:

When a person is dead, he enters the Barzakh he no longer has the free wills.  Whatever happened after that is according to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He just accept and witness what will take place. We all will taste the death and we have to give up our free will. We can agree on this too.

Our life is a journey from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  For some people, their main focus is limited to living in the current world during the journey. They have much to decide. Some already reached akhirah (higher world) while their body is standing on the earth.  

The elements of free will is, when in barzakh two different fruit is brought to you, first you try to research/survey both by asking the fruits characteristics, 2ndly you choose/select(انتخاب) one of them, and than 3rdly you implement will power and iradah(قدرت و اراده) to perform action that said consume the one fruit you selected. In this world this is called اختیار to gain/for کرامت اکتسابی. But we have ikhtiyar in paradise too because of the three elements of ikhtiyar above mentioned. The topic of ikhtiyar and qalb should not be discussed here. Of course the qalb topic is near this topic. And the issue of ikhtiyar is much more precise and difficult than the issue of qalb.

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@SoRoUsH here is a hadith for you brother:

محمد بن َيْحَيى عن أَْحَمَد بن محمد عن محمد بن ِسَناٍن عن اْلُحَسْيِن بن اْلُمْخَتاِر عن أَِبي بصير عن أَِبي َعْبِد اَّلله ( عليه السلام ) َقاَل إن اْلَقْلَب ليترجج فِيَما َبْيَن الصدر واْلَحْنَجَرِة حتى ُيْعَقَد َعلَى الإيمان َفإِذَا ُعِقَد َعلَى الإيمان قر و َذلَِك َقْوُل اَّلله عز و جل و من ُيْؤِمْن باَّلله َيْهِد َقْلَبُه .

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, from Al Husayn Bin Mukhtar, from Abu Baseer, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah having said: ‘The ‘اْلَقْلبُ' tends to vibrate between the chest and the throat until it sits upon the Emān. So when it is tied upon the Emān, it settles down, and these are the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [64:11] and whoever believes in Allah, He Guides aright his ُاْلَقْلب (Qalb)’.

https://hadith.academyofislam.com/?q=qalb

The translator has also mentioned this in translation:

 ’اْلَقْلب cannot be translated as heart. In one Hadith it is referred to Aql it is not a physical entity

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

@SoRoUsH here is a hadith for you brother:

محمد بن َيْحَيى عن أَْحَمَد بن محمد عن محمد بن ِسَناٍن عن اْلُحَسْيِن بن اْلُمْخَتاِر عن أَِبي بصير عن أَِبي َعْبِد اَّلله ( عليه السلام ) َقاَل إن اْلَقْلَب ليترجج فِيَما َبْيَن الصدر واْلَحْنَجَرِة حتى ُيْعَقَد َعلَى الإيمان َفإِذَا ُعِقَد َعلَى الإيمان قر و َذلَِك َقْوُل اَّلله عز و جل و من ُيْؤِمْن باَّلله َيْهِد َقْلَبُه .

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, from Al Husayn Bin Mukhtar, from Abu Baseer, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah having said: ‘The ‘اْلَقْلبُ' tends to vibrate between the chest and the throat until it sits upon the Emān. So when it is tied upon the Emān, it settles down, and these are the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [64:11] and whoever believes in Allah, He Guides aright his ُاْلَقْلب (Qalb)’.

https://hadith.academyofislam.com/?q=qalb

The translator has also mentioned this in translation:

 ’اْلَقْلب cannot be translated as heart. In one Hadith it is referred to Aql it is not a physical entity

Thank you @Cool

This narration is weak and has been ranked "weak but famous" by Allamah Majlisi. So, I personally wouldn't base any of my beliefs on it or change any of my previous beliefs because of it. 

 

However, it's noteworthy that even in this narration a physical location has been given for the Qalb. It is between the chest and the throat. The Qalb is a thing with a specific physical location. Do non-physical things have physical locations? Would it even make sense to speak of non-physical things being located in physical space? 

 

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This narration is weak and has been ranked "weak but famous" by Allamah Majlisi. So, I personally wouldn't base any of my beliefs on it or change any of my previous beliefs because of it. 

Salam, thanks for your input.

That is a strange grading! Weak but famous . Anyway here is another, this time with explanation of scholar:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن جعفر بن عثمان، عن سماعة عن أبي بصير وغيره قال: قال أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): «إن القلب ليكون الساعة من الليل والنهار ما فيه كفر ولا إيمان كالثوب الخلق، قال: ثم قال لي: أما تجد ذلك من نفسك؟ قال: ثم تكون النكتة من الله في القلب بما شاء من كفر وإيمان».
عدة من أصحابنا، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن محمد بن أبي عمير مثله.
* الشرح:
قوله: (إن القلب ليكون الساعة من الليل والنهار ما فيه كفر ولا إيمان كالثوب الخلق، قال: ثم قال لي: أما تجد ذلك من نفسك) المراد بالقلب النفس الناطقة التي هي محل للايمان والكفر، وحمله على الجسم المعروف كما يشعر به ظاهر هذا التشبيه وظاهر التشبيه بالمضغة في الخبر الآتي وهو الجسم الصنوبري المودع في الجانب الأيسر من الصدر الذي هو محل للروح بعيد

Now this scholar has clearly mention المراد بالقلب. 

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1183_شرح-أصول-الكافي-مولي-محمد-صالح-المازندراني-ج-١٠/الصفحة_141

And this one too:

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن فضال، عن علي بن عقبة، عن عمرو عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: «قال لنا ذات يوم: تجد الرجل لا يخطئ بلام ولا واو خطيبا مصقعا ولقلبه أشد ظلمة من الليل المظلم وتجد الرجل لا يستطيع يعبر عما في قلبه بلسانه وقلبه يزهر كما يزهر المصباح».
* الشرح:
قوله: (قال: قال لنا ذات يوم) الذات بمعنى النفس أي قال لنا نفس يوم يعني قال لنا يوما من الأيام. (تجد الرجل لا يخطئ بلام ولا واو) هذا مثل لمن يقدر على الكلام قدرة كاملة بحيث لا يفوته شيء من الوجوه المحسنة اللفظية. (خطيبا مصقعا) المصقع بكسر الميم وفتح القاف البليغ أو العالي الصوت أو من لا يضطرب في كلامه ولا يلتبس عليه وجوهه المعتبرة في تحسينه لفظا ومعنا ولا يتعتع.
(ولقلبه أشد ظلمة من الليل المظلم) المراد بالقلب الروح الانساني وهو من عالم الامن نزل في هذا العالم بأمر ربه للتجارة والحراثة كما قيل: الدنيا مزرعة الآخرة وبذره الايمان وماؤه الحكمة وثمرته الاعمال والاخلاق والمقصود من جميع ذلك النعيم الأبدي وقرب الحق والمنافق لما كان فاقدا لجميع هذه الأمور التي هي أضواء عقلية وأنوار الهية لفقده البصيرة القلبية التي هي مبدأ المشاهدات والمكاشفات ومنشأ صفاء مرآة القلب واستضاءته بنور تلك الأنوار كان قلبه لا محالة مظلما لا يمكنه رؤية جمال المعارف وهذا بخلاف المؤمن العارف المطيع كما أشار بقوله:
(وتجد الرجل لا يستطيع يعبر عما في قلبه بلسانه) لقصور في لسانه ونقض في بيانه (وقلبه يزهر كما يزهر المصباح) باعتبار نور الايمان وأركانه وعقائده الحقة وأخلاقه الحسنة وأعماله الصالحة وتنزهه عما يوجب ظلمة القلب وغلبته على القوة الشهوية والغضبة المكدرة لصفاء مرآته

Now I don't know whether you accept these interpretation or not, but this is exactly the basis of my understanding that the word Qalb is used in different meanings. 

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

it's noteworthy that even in this narration a physical location has been given for the Qalb. It is between the chest and the throat. The Qalb is a thing with a specific physical location. Do non-physical things have physical locations? Would it even make sense to speak of non-physical things being located in physical space? 

Interesting point which perhaps you have ignored is that حتى ُيْعَقَد َعلَى الإيمان

Qalb sits on Emaan. So what do we think about Emaan? Is it something material/physical on which physical heart sits? 

I think its all figurative and requires interpretation. 

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Anyway here is another, this time with explanation of scholar:

This narration is either Saheeh or Majhool, because it is not clear, according to Majlisi, which جعفر بن عثمان is the transmitter.

Now, let's assume it's Saheeh, since there are other saheeh narrations like it. If you read the narration itself, without being influenced by any interpretations, it is clear that we have no reason to think Qalb implies Nafs in this narration. To think so would be doing so based on other assumptions beyond the text of the narration. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Now this scholar has clearly mention المراد بالقلب. 

He's done so based on other assumptions, not because of anything that is in the Hadith itself. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

بالقلب الروح الانساني

Same here. The narration itself points neither to nafs (نفس) nor to ruh (روح). So, the scholars have made such interpretations because in their minds, the Qalb in the Hadith can't possibly be the physical Qalb in our bodies. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Now I don't know whether you accept these interpretation or not

I don't, since this is not what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have taught or pointed to in their narrations. It's a conjecture. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Qalb sits on Emaan. So what do we think about Emaan? Is it something material/physical on which physical heart sits? 

I can't comment on this, since this notion is based on a weak Hadith. 

 

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10 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This narration is either Saheeh or Majhool, because it is not clear, according to Majlisi, which جعفر بن عثمان is the transmitter.

Thanks again for your valued inputs. I hope you will don't mind my continuous questioning. 

Here is another hadith:

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن العباس بن معروف، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن الحسين بن المختار، عن أبي بصير قال: سمعت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) يقول: «يكون القلب ما فيه إيمان ولا كفر، شبه المضغة أما يجد أحدكم ذلك

There is no explanation from scholar here. The words of Imam (عليه السلام) شبه المضغة are of importance. 

So the qalb that contains neither belief or disbelief is like المضغة (lump of flesh). I hope you can shed some light here too. It seems to me that it (Qalb) is not actually the lump of flesh but it is "like" a lump of flesh. 

And what would be the likeness of Qalb if it contain either Kufr or Emaan? 

 

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16 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Do non-physical things have physical locations? Would it even make sense to speak of non-physical things being located in physical space? 

Salam from Sunni viewpoint 


 heart beat +hamza yusuf

The Heart Says Allah | *Miracle Of Allah*
YouTube · iLovUAllah™
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PheH2x3bcE

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

There is no explanation from scholar here. The words of Imam (عليه السلام) شبه المضغة are of importance. 

So the qalb that contains neither belief or disbelief is like المضغة (lump of flesh). I hope you can shed some light here too. It seems to me that it (Qalb) is not actually the lump of flesh but it is "like" a lump of flesh. 

And what would be the likeness of Qalb if it contain either Kufr or Emaan? 

This is great narration and certainly the use of شبه المضغة is very important. 

I do not have a good answer as to what this may mean or imply. 

I can only imagine a lightbulb, with its glass/bulb part being capable of being coloured, white or black. White colour amplifies the light within, where black colour subdues and/or cancels the light within. 

When this bulb is active or functioning, it always emanates light or "darkness". But when the bulb is off or inactive and is not functioning as it should, then it's just "like a piece of glass". 

The heart is just like a piece of flesh when it's not functioning as it should. But when it is functioning, when it's either imbued with Iman or Kufr, then it's more than a piece of flesh, it's a source of action.

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On 7/6/2021 at 5:35 PM, Cool said:

محمد بن َيْحَيى عن أَْحَمَد بن محمد عن محمد بن ِسَناٍن عن اْلُحَسْيِن بن اْلُمْخَتاِر عن أَِبي بصير عن أَِبي َعْبِد اَّلله ( عليه السلام ) َقاَل إن اْلَقْلَب ليترجج فِيَما َبْيَن الصدر واْلَحْنَجَرِة حتى ُيْعَقَد َعلَى الإيمان َفإِذَا ُعِقَد َعلَى الإيمان قر و َذلَِك َقْوُل اَّلله عز و جل و من ُيْؤِمْن باَّلله َيْهِد َقْلَبُه .

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, from Al Husayn Bin Mukhtar, from Abu Baseer, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah having said: ‘The ‘اْلَقْلبُ' tends to vibrate between the chest and the throat until it sits upon the Emān. So when it is tied upon the Emān, it settles down, and these are the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [64:11] and whoever believes in Allah, He Guides aright his ُاْلَقْلب (Qalb)’.

I am examining this hadith and paused at here for a while. 

The two verses of Quran are also in my sight:

إِذْ جَاؤُوكُم مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ وَمِنْ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُمْ وَإِذْ زَاغَتْ الْأَبْصَارُ وَبَلَغَتِ الْقُلُوبُ الْحَنَاجِرَ وَتَظُنُّونَ بِاللَّهِ الظُّنُونَا

33:10

وَأَنذِرْهُمْ يَوْمَ الْآزِفَةِ إِذِ الْقُلُوبُ لَدَى الْحَنَاجِرِ كَاظِمِينَ مَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ حَمِيمٍ وَلَا شَفِيعٍ يُطَاعُ

40:18

And it appears that the content of hadith itself is not weak. Qalb, if embedded properly on emaan, would not come to throat. Means it will not get scared, fearful hence will not display cowardice. 

بَلَى مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

2:112

In most of the languages, the idiom "heart comes to throat" is used as an expression of cowardice or intense fear (of something).

Physical heart itself is not a thing which changes its locations. It cannot come to throat in any mean.

So what is meant by "qalb (heart) comes to throat" in these verses?

Perhaps it means the expression of the cowardice or intense fear of nafs. In that case heart here is used for mentioning nafs (and its specific trait i.e., cowardice or intense fear). These verses are not mentioning the physical qalb (heart).

I have yet to see the possible meanings of word ليترجج appeared in hadith.

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On 6/9/2021 at 4:25 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Before that, for example in the writings of Aristotle and Ibn Rushd, the heart was the seat of the Spirit or the Intellect. It was a sensorium, and the main perceiver of the world. 

The Qur'an was revealed centuries before the Qalb was re-interpreted as a mechanical pump. This an extremely important fact. 

We should not assume that Islam views our physical hearts as a mere pump. There's a direct connection between Aql and the physical heart.

Most people, nowadays, have a very hard time viewing the heart other than a mere mechanical pump, and that's why they have a very hard time understanding the usage of the heart in the Qur'an. So they keep thinking when "qalb" is used, it can't be the physical heart. 

Keep in mind, the word "brain" is never mentioned in the Qur'an. 

Salam Alaikom, yes the words دماغ، مشاعر، ذهن & وهم is not used in the Holy Quran. All mentions in the Holy Quran of صدر، قلب، فؤاد and لب is used for non physical realities. Sure there is connection between qalb which is 'a thing' and intellect, but what kind of connection? The word aql is used as verb all the time in the Holy Quran and not as a noun. تعقل is a process to gain marefat, which happens by a thing. And the heart is not used as a process.

All non physical realities or entities are not 'a thing'.

On 6/10/2021 at 4:23 AM, SoRoUsH said:

But how do you explain the fact that this nafs leaves the body during sleep and re-enters when it's time to wake up? 

Your individual identity isn't something that leaves and returns. Your ego doesn't leave and return. But your consciousness does. You "lose" consciousness when you're sleeping, and it returns to you, when you wake up. 

Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 42:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Allah takes the NAFS at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

This issue needs the process of تفکر that we need to implement to achieve the result. What spiritual aspect that is a non-physical reality of us do tafakkor; we need to figure it out so we can have a successful answer. 

Losing consciousness and not being able to perform it through the jism; it's two different issues.

Why must we think that something leaves or comes inside, why not reflecting that there is inputs and outputs. 

If we momenin have belief that death is not annihilation but death is travel from this world and that we taste death and becomes more alive not that death taste us. Also sleep brother of death.

Now imagine a plant; does it have the same function at day light and during the night. Or input and output differ. Can a flower die, yes it can (how does it die, what does we humans do to make it die), but can a flower sleep?! The roots are always in the dark, so for it, does the light of day or darkness and coldness of night matter. Does it get affected, despite the fact we all see that the roots are not directly in contact with the outer sphere. The atmosphere of branches change but does the atmosphere of roots change!? We can't always go parallel so both side is in equal (=), rather somewhere the knot must happen and this needs to be figured out otherwise we can't say we have belief or aqidah, when we have no clue of the issue of aqd (knot). Resting of body does not mean nafs is out or later in, rather nafs is not resting but active.

On 6/10/2021 at 5:10 AM, SoRoUsH said:

They were ordered to prostrate to Adam, when he was complete, Ruh and body; not just Ruh. Adam's body is just as significant. God kneaded the mud/clay, for forty days, with His own two hands. This fact signifies how sacred, how holy, and how special the very body of Adam, which is made of clay/mud is. 

So, it's a mistake to dismiss the holiness of the body and only focus on the holiness of the Ruh. 

Iblees and angels were ordered to prostrate to Adam, body and Ruh.

Except when it leaves the body, during sleep. So, not always. 

I don't view the inner self and nafs as two distinct entities. Inner self, nafs, and consciousness are one and the same, most likely.

I see the definition of consciousness as a word and see that it's common sense and proper to use it for the word nafs lawamah(and also see it's definition). Yes the western thinkers may use it in different fields based on their thought patterns. And soul they may use it for روح, but we redefine it for nafs and explain it for them. Albeit proper wording makes think easier, but for me it's okay.

Sure, appreciate the issue of the holiness of body mentioned here.

On 6/10/2021 at 6:04 AM, layman said:

For some selected individuals, the Nafs can leave the body at anytime.

The actual Ruh that control the body cannot leave the body. If that Ruh leaves, the body will experience physical death. 

Try to avoid exceptions because it's not usable for all conditions and it's not normal circumstances. Are we sure during sleep or death nafs leaves or ruh leaves, maybe it's not leaving but directing it's (1.attention and 2.do's).

On 6/14/2021 at 4:08 PM, SoRoUsH said:

اَفَلَمۡ يَسِيۡرُوۡا فِى الۡاَرۡضِ فَتَكُوۡنَ لَهُمۡ قُلُوۡبٌ يَّعۡقِلُوۡنَ بِهَاۤ اَوۡ اٰذَانٌ يَّسۡمَعُوۡنَ بِهَا‌ ۚ فَاِنَّهَا لَا تَعۡمَى الۡاَبۡصَارُ وَلٰـكِنۡ تَعۡمَى الۡـقُلُوۡبُ الَّتِىۡ فِى الصُّدُوۡرِ

22:46

If anything, this verse clearly points to the heart in the chests, the physical hearts. 

There are weak narrations that put Aql inside the heart, qalb. 

We use our Aql through our hearts. In other words, Aql functions through the heart, the heart in our chests. 

IF your heart isn't healthy, neither is your Aql. 

Sure it can't be the physical heart, because the physical heart does not have eyes, and the non-physical reality connected to the physical heart cannot be in the physical chest. Aql can not be 'a thing' which functions by help of heart. Aql is used as a process of تعقل for marefat, and not as a non-physical thing.

On 6/14/2021 at 9:47 PM, Cool said:

The only narration I remember is the words...

Nafs has been used in several meanings in Arabic language. It can mean the blood flowing in your veins, it can mean the "wujood" (كَتَبَ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ الرَّحْمَةَ) etc. 

The reason why Imams have not defined it is perhaps that it is a thing which is self evident. 

Again, ma'refat e nafs has been mentioned in many ahadith. Strange is that if we question what is nafs. Apply all the meanings in which nafs is used in Arabic language to know what the nafs actually is. So lets take the meaning "wujood" (self). We have two dimensional wujood a) physical b) spiritual. 

So what could be the nafs means if not the physical wujood? Spiritual wujood. So the heart, eyes, hearing etc God is talking about in Quran must be spiritual or related to our spiritual wujood. 

Our physical heart doesn't have eyes or ears. Or do you think your physical heart has eyes & ears? 

Salam Alaikom, who said our spiritual 'heart' has eyes and ears, as much as I know eyes and ears have to do with head not chest. The spiritual side of the physical heart necessarily does not need to be called spiritual heart, and become parallel. Just a thought!

I have put here for future reference, specifically the 2nd article to help the discussion on defining nafs.

معناشناسی نفس در قرآن کریم با تأکید بر روابط همنشینی و جانشینی

تبیین نسبت «نفس واحده» با «آدم» بر اساس تحلیل مفهوم «نفس» در نظام آیات قرآن

On 6/14/2021 at 12:37 PM, Cool said:

I think I would disagree here with you. 

أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا

What is the relationship of Qalb & Ta"aqqul (تعقل)? There certainly is a relationship between nafs & ta'aqqul.

I think we can focus on the subject of nafs if the discussion requires it.

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On 7/14/2021 at 12:05 AM, Ali.Isa said:

Salam Alaikom,

1) who said our spiritual 'heart' has eyes and ears, as much as I know eyes and ears have to do with head not chest.

2) The spiritual side of the physical heart necessarily does not need to be called spiritual heart, and become parallel. Just a thought!

Alaikas-Salam Brother!!

1) Heart is a thing which is called "alive" as long as it continues its function. Our physical heart pumps blood throughout our body so it is called alive physically. The same heart is called dead or diseased when it fails to realize the truth or fails to circulate spirituality to our اعضاء و جوارح. 

The spiritual aspect of our heart has the tendency to see and hear. The seeing & hearing (with our physical organs i.e., eyes & ears) helps us to realize the truth & become certain. So when we use the word "seeing & hearing" for heart, it does not mean the heart has any sort of physical eyes or physical ears rather we are pointing towards the "realization of truth" and "certainty" which is achieved by spiritual aspect of the heart as achieved by viewing with eyes & hearing through ears. 

2) We need to separate the two aspects of that one thing which we are calling as "heart" not to make it parallel to one another, but to understand that the physical heart will not accompany the soul (nafs). The same way we are separating the جسم with نفس. I think this separation is necessary when we study the two side, one being physical & other being abstract in natures.

It is the spiritual aspect which will accompany nafs for instance قلب سليم. And to understand that the diseases of this physical heart are not actually the diseases of its spiritual aspect. So a healthy physical heart can be a called a diseased heart spiritually. 

 

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