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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Nafs (نفس) = The Spirit (روح)?

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  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, Cool said:

I am holding the rational views. I haven't seen any narration which specifically defines the nafs.

This is important! Keep it mind! 

What you're saying is that you're passing along what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have taught. Instead, you're passing along a set of conjectures and opinions of your own, which to you seem rational. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

The reason why Imams have not defined it is perhaps that it is a thing which is self evident. 

Is it? Doesn't seem like it. 

God has a nafs, too. Is His nafs like ours? 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Again, ma'refat e nafs has been mentioned in many ahadith.

Ok. Let's see them. Show these narrations and their isnad. May be there are clues in them regarding the very nature of Nafs.

1 hour ago, Cool said:

God takes our souls at the time of death.

He takes our nafs at the time of sleep and nafs. Are you saying nafs = soul? 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

So the heart, eyes, hearing etc God is talking about in Quran must be spiritual or related to our spiritual wujood. 

Our physical heart doesn't have eyes or ears. Or do you think your physical heart has eyes & ears? 

Each organ could have a spiritual dimension. The spiritual dimension isn't distinct or exclusively mutual from the physical dimension. 

We have narrations that specifically state, there are two ears on the heart. What is God referring to? 

These are hard questions, and we need the guidance of our Imams (عليه السلام) to know what this means. We can't use conjectures to arrive at assumptions, which we take to be rational.

We can't assume something must be metaphorical, simply because we can't understand or believe the literal definition. To know the Tawil of any verse, we must rely on the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

1 hour ago, Cool said:

As I said earlier, I possess two dimensions. So the answer of your question is yes & no at the same time. Yes if I consider my spiritual wujood, No if I consider my physical wujood.

Ok. Good. You have a spiritual body, which travels outside of your body.

Is this spiritual body what you take to be the Nafs? 

Is this nafs, this spiritual body, your soul? 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

According to the books of tafseer,

Can they be backed up through the narrations of our Imams (عليه السلام)? 

On the face of it, I can't see any reference to a nafs, or a spiritual body.

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44 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

What you're saying is that you're passing along what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have taught. Instead, you're passing along a set of conjectures and opinions of your own, which to you seem rational. 

It seems to me that you are of the view that pondering over the creation of God is haram. Tafakkur on the verses of Quran & on the signs of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & on His creation is not haram. It is a praiseworthy act my brother.

So do I need to quote tens of Ahadith of Imam Ali present in Ghurar Al-Hikam about marefat e nafs? Do I need to quote verses of Quran mentioning the nafs & command of God to reflect on the signs. 

Ok, if that is what you want, here are they:

Self-recognition is the most beneficial of all recognition."

"I am surprised at one who seeks what he has lost while he has lost himself (i.e., his identity and essence) and does not search for it."

"I wonder how a person who does not recognize himself can recognize his Lord."

"The ultimate point of Knowledge is for man to reach self-recognition."

"The greatest triumph belongs to one who reaches self-recognition."

"The more the man gains knowledge, the more he endeavors for himself and strives in the way of being educated and reformed."

Now here are the verses:

سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ ۗ 

41:53) We will soon show them our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth

وَفِي أَنْفُسِكُمْ ۚ أَفَلَا تُبْصِرُونَ

51:21) And in your own souls (too); will you not then see

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ ۖ لَا يَضُرُّكُمْ مَنْ ضَلَّ إِذَا اهْتَدَيْتُمْ

5:105) Take care of your souls: he who errs cannot hurt you when you are the right way

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ نَسُوا اللَّهَ فَأَنْسَاهُمْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ

59:19) And be not like those who forsook Allah, so He made them forsake their own souls

56 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

God has a nafs, too. Is His nafs like ours

He cannot be "like" anything. 

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

He takes our nafs at the time of sleep and nafs. Are you saying nafs = soul? 

Nafs translated as Soul in English.

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Each organ could have a spiritual dimension. The spiritual dimension isn't distinct or exclusively mutual from the physical dimension. 

Nafs is not an organ. Or is it? 

Now here is a surprise for you. 

أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا أَوْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا

22:46)Have they not travelled in the land so that they should have hearts with which to understand, or ears with which to hear?

We were discussing this verse of Sura e Hajj. Now see another verse of Al-A'araf:

وَنَطْبَعُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُونَ {}

7:100) and set a seal on their hearts so they would not hear.

In the verse of Sura e Hajj, qalb is specifically mentioned for reflecting/understanding while ears have been mentioned separately for hearing. In the verse of Chapter Al-A'raaf, sealing of heart causes ones to not hear (لا يسمعون).

So according to 7:100, Qalb can be used for hearing too. Or the sealing of heart itself can be the reason for ones blindness, deafness & dumbness.

And there are many verses which mentions the sealing of heart, hearing, sight separately too.

خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

2:7

أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ طَبَعَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَسَمْعِهِمْ وَأَبْصَارِهِمْ وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ

16:108

 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

It seems to me that you are of the view that pondering over the creation of God is haram.

It's not. What is unwise is to make claims without having the support of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Do I need to quote tens of Ahadith of Imam Ali present in Ghurar Al-Hikam about marefat e nafs?

No. Narrations in Guitar al-Hikam do not have isnad. Find narrations with isnad please. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Do I need to quote verses of Quran mentioning the nafs

Yes. Show me why you think "nafs" and "Qalb" are interchangeable.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Now here are the verses:

What is it that you think these verses are demonstrating? I can't see why think nafs=Qalb. What do these verses show you? Is Nafs=self=Qalb? Is Nafs=consciousness? Is soul=nafs=consciousness=Qalb? 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

He cannot be "like" anything. 

So, whatever definition of Nafs you have for humans, doesn't resemble God's nafs? 

Do angels and jinns have nafs? 

Do animals have nafs? Plants? 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Nafs translated as Soul in English.

Do you think this is accurate?

2 hours ago, Cool said:

So according to 7:100, Qalb can be used for hearing too. Or the sealing of heart itself can be the reason for ones blindness, deafness & dumbness.

And there are many verses which mentions the sealing of heart, hearing, sight separately too.

What is it that you think surprises me? 

I've been saying this whole time that the  heart is much more than a pump. As Aristotle and Inn Rushd have said, the heart is the seat of the intellect and the spirit. It is the main sensorium within the body. 

What you still need to figure out is how nafs is related to the heart. Are they one and the same? 

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10 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

But what is Nafs? We need to answer this question first? 

 

Salam,

We are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we are returning to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) .  This is Quran.

1. What is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...the Nafs.

2. Who is returning Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...the Nafs.

3. At the beginning, when the Nafs separated from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we make it dirty from its pure state.  When we are baby, our nafs is still pure. Then our free wills make it dirty.

Then we were given the hint about Nafs. I don't need to provide the sanad for this hadith.  Well known.

"من عرف نفسه فقد عرف ربه"

He who knows (recognizes, understands) his Nafs, verily he knows His Rabb...my translation.

So we need to purify our nafs so the reality/nature/Essense of the Nafs is known to our conscious (or consciousness...first time i use the term).  We knows, the Nafs is valuable asset from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...an Amanah, ...we initially call it The Light.  We also know who own the Light.

We needs the Nafs to shine the Light , but we don't know how.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent down Pure Nafs / Purified Nafs (Ahlulbayt as in 33:33) to connect to our Nafs and guide us all.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make those Pure Nafs alive as long as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wishes.

We read in hadith (I will try to bring the source later).  The Essense of Ahlulbayt are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).   Meaning their Nafs are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That is the reason the Prophet claimed that He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the City of knowledge.

From here we can deduce that the Nature of the Nafs is Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  We use Ahlulbayt as our reference.  Most Urafa call it Light.  Or Light Within Me.

Most humans deprive the true nature of Nafs from ruling the body.  We need more tazkiyah of the nafs.  We have sugar coated our nafs with syaitans, shirk, own desires, worldly affairs, until the Light of true nature of Nafs are deprived from shining. ...For that, we need to be with Ahlulbayt..hold on to Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt.  Hadiths clearly stated hold on directly to Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt not HOLD ON to hadiths or teachings of Ahlulbayt.  Because written things subject to human interferences. Because of this, please don't easily discredit others who may not yet able to present written materials / teachings.  Listen to what been told.  But, also we don't discredit those who bring written materials.  Even the teachings/written materials will at the end being our Nafs to Ahlulbayt.

 

Those that we call mukmin, the Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is their nafs.  It depends on the brightness...they may be awliya, siddiqin..  and The Brightest of all Nafs are the Nafs of Ahlulbayt. Shining all over creation.

The Light is the same Light everywhere from Ahlulbayt to humans.  The Owner of the Light is the Real Rabb.

Based on the Hadith, if we don’t know the real nature of our own nafs...WE WILL NEVER KNOW Our RABB.  Meaning we will be loss forever.

 

 

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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I've been saying this whole time that the  heart is much more than a pump. As Aristotle and Inn Rushd have said, the heart is the seat of the intellect and the spirit.

Why do you think this physical heart of yours, which remain with your body after death and becomes dust after the death, is a seat of the intellect?

What do you think intellect is? Does it need seat to sit? Does it has volume or does it occupy space (mass)? 

Why do you think what Aristotle or ibn Rushd said is correct?

So how is that, God takes out the soul at the time of death, and leave the seat of intellect & spirit with the body. So the nafs goes to God without spirit & intellect? Or if spirit and intellect goes with nafs, do they have no seat to sit within the nafs? 

Now its my turn to question :D

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11 minutes ago, layman said:

At the beginning, when the Nafs separated from Allah

I don't understand this. Was our nafs part of Allah's nafs? Were we part of Allah? 

15 minutes ago, layman said:

So we need to purify our nafs so the reality/nature/Essense of the Nafs is known to our conscious (or consciousness

So our nafs is not our consciousness? And only after it is purified, then our consciousness would recognize it? 

16 minutes ago, layman said:

We knows, the Nafs is valuable asset from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...an Amanah, ...we initially call it The Light.  We also know who own the Light.

How do we know this? Where does this idea come from? Have the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) taught this? If so, please post supporting authentic narrations showing them teaching this. 

I know I keep asking and saying, but if an idea doesn't come from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or is not supported by their narrations, then they have not taught it. That idea isn't their teaching. So, it's very important to support such claims by showing that the Ahlul Bayt have taught it. 

23 minutes ago, layman said:

The Essense of Ahlulbayt are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).   Meaning their Nafs are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

From here we can deduce that ...

It's very important that you provide a narration for this claim, one with an authentic sanad. 

Before we deduce anything, an acceptable narrations necessary here. 

26 minutes ago, layman said:

Hadiths clearly stated hold on directly to Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt not HOLD ON to hadiths or teachings of Ahlulbayt.

What?! 

This is a very strange interpretation of the Hadith al-Thaqalayn. 

We hold on to the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) through their teachings, which we learn through their narrations. 

29 minutes ago, layman said:

Those that we call mukmin, the Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is their nafs.  It depends on the brightness...they may be awliya, siddiqin..  and The Brightest of all Nafs are the Nafs of Ahlulbayt. Shining all over creation.

But earlier above you mentioned that the Nafs of the Imams (عليه السلام) is the Names of Allah. Now you're saying it's the Light of Allah. Are the Names of Allah same as Light of Allah? 

I understand your general point. I understood that we need to purify ourselves; however, it's our hearts that we need to purify, not our nafs. And nafs and heart are not one and the same.

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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

What you still need to figure out is how nafs is related to the heart. Are they one and the same? 

What has been self-evident is that nafs is not material thing. Material heart has no eyes and no ears and it does not reflect. 

Are you agreed with these self-evident facts?

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Qalb has been used in different meanings in Quran and they are as follows:

1. Qalb in the sense of Aql

إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَذِكْرَىٰ لِمَنْ كَانَ لَهُ قَلْبٌ أَوْ أَلْقَى السَّمْعَ وَهُوَ شَهِيدٌ

50:37) Most surely there is a reminder in this for him who has a heart or he gives ear and is a witness.

Learning is a function of aql and has nothing to do with physical heart. But due to qalb's central role  in the human personality we can understand why aql is mentioned as qalb here.

2. Qalb in the sense of nafs

 زَاغَتِ الْأَبْصَارُ وَبَلَغَتِ الْقُلُوبُ الْحَنَاجِرَ

33:10) and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, 

Hearts literally never reach to throat even when you die. So here again neither heart nor throat refers to our physical organs. Since once throat is the departure point from which something leaves our body, so the nafs (soul) has been mentioned here as heart which reaches its departure point. 

3. Qalb in the sense of centre of our emotions

سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا الرُّعْبَ

8:12) I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.

فَبِمَا رَحْمَةٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ لِنْتَ لَهُمْ ۖ وَلَوْ كُنْتَ فَظًّا غَلِيظَ الْقَلْبِ لَانْفَضُّوا مِنْ حَوْلِكَ

3:159) Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you

4. Qalb in the sense of centre of human personality

5. Qalb in the sense of internal face of human personality

Qalb is reflective of our real personality and who we really are. It reveals whether you are a good person, pious person, a person with purity or a person who is corrupt, who has dual personality etc. 

يَوْمَ لَا يَنْفَعُ مَالٌ وَلَا بَنُونَ

إِلَّا مَنْ أَتَى اللَّهَ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ

26:88-89) The day on which property will not avail, nor sons. Except him who comes to Allah with a heart free (from evil).

The day of judgement is the day wherein nothing will help us, with one exception i.e., to come to Allah with a pure or healthy heart (again not referring to our physical heart) which is having that internal reflection of our personality being a healthy one. Our actions and deeds are a reflection of this internal reflection.

Quran also talks about qalbun mubeen or a hopeful heart.

Quran also discuss the opposite of qalb e salim or healthy/pure heart by mentioning the disease of heart

" In their hearts is a disease, so Allah has increased their disease" (2:10)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cool said:

Qalb in the sense of Aql

إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَذِكْرَىٰ لِمَنْ كَانَ لَهُ قَلْبٌ أَوْ أَلْقَى السَّمْعَ وَهُوَ شَهِيدٌ

50:37) Most surely there is a reminder in this for him who has a heart or he gives ear and is a witness.

Learning is a function of aql and has nothing to do with physical heart. But due to qalb's central role  in the human personality we can understand why aql is mentioned as qalb here.

At least I found the words of Imam (عليه السلام) from a lengthy narration from Al-kafi 1:12/12 where Imam a s mentions the above verse & said:

O Hisham, Allah says in His book, "This is a reminder for the ones who understands, listens, and sees." (50:37) It means intelligence.

So the word qalb here is used in place of aql. Similarly, it is obvious that qalb has been used in place of nafs in the verse 33:10 

Quote

زَاغَتِ الْأَبْصَارُ وَبَلَغَتِ الْقُلُوبُ الْحَنَاجِرَ

33:10) and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, 

Hearts literally never reach to throat even when you die. So here again neither heart nor throat refers to our physical organs. Since once throat is the departure point from which something leaves our body, so the nafs (soul) has been mentioned here as heart which reaches its departure point. 

 

Edited by Cool
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5 hours ago, layman said:

Then we were given the hint about Nafs.

Salam , I have seen it in a TV Show about NDE expriements in Iran which invited scholar has concluded that Nafs for having affection in this world needs human body & senses but Ruh/Soul is not dependant on body & senses which can affect others by other means likewise coming in dream & inspiring others whitout need to physical body & senses.

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Why do you think this physical heart of yours, which remain with your body after death and becomes dust after the death, is a seat of the intellect?

It's the seat of intellect and the spirits, in this world. Through it, you're connected to the spiritual realm. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

What do you think intellect is? Does it need seat to sit? Does it has volume or does it occupy space (mass)? 

I think the closest translation of Aql is intellect. It is a light from Allah, in our hearts, acting as a guide. It may be related to the Spirit of Faith. It may or may not occupy space. Does Aql occupy space? It's of a very subtle nature. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Why do you think what Aristotle or ibn Rushd said is correct?

I think their Cardio-centric views are closer to the teachings of Islam and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

8 hours ago, Cool said:

So how is that, God takes out the soul at the time of death, and leave the seat of intellect & spirit with the body. So the nafs goes to God without spirit & intellect? Or if spirit and intellect goes with nafs, do they have no seat to sit within the nafs? 

Consciousness leaves the body at the time of sleep and death. 

The Spirit of Faith leaves the body when a Mu'min is sinning. 

Perhaps once روح الایمان leaves the body, the intellect wouldn't function optimally anymore. I'm not sure. 

I don't know what accompanies nafs when it leaves the body. 

What I do know is that after death, our spirit (روح) takes the form of our distinct physical traits. Consequently, the spirits (ارواح) of people can recognize each other in the hereafter. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

What has been self-evident is that nafs is not material thing. Material heart has no eyes and no ears and it does not reflect. 

Are you agreed with these self-evident facts?

Nafs is likely not material, since it leaves the body. However, I cannot agree that our material hearts has no eyes or ears. And I definitely disagree with the statement that it does not reflect. It certainly does. Its ears are obviously not like the ears that we have on our heads. However, it may have parts that "hear" the language of our body parts. We have a Saheeh narration that (at least) some of our body parts talk to each other, and they all tell the tongue to be virtuous. 

So since our internal organs communicate with each other, and since the heart is the seat of the intellect and/or spirits, then it is likely that the heart has ears that can receive/hear the communications of and from our organs. 

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

Qalb in the sense of Aql

 

3 hours ago, Cool said:

So the word qalb here is used in place of aql.

Could you show (copy/paste) the narration that you mentioned? 

I know there are weak narrations that locate the Aql inside the heart. Aql is a light inside the heart. But Aql is not the same as the heart, and this is an important distinction. 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Hearts literally never reach to throat even when you die. So here again neither heart nor throat refers to our physical organs.

No. We have to see what exactly is meant by throats. Remember, 1400 years ago, they did not have the same view and definitions of the body that we do today. For example, this statement could point to one's last breath, when the air is blocked from entering in the body. 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

The day of judgement is the day wherein nothing will help us, with one exception i.e., to come to Allah with a pure or healthy heart (again not referring to our physical heart) which is having that internal reflection of our personality being a healthy one. Our actions and deeds are a reflection of this internal reflection.

Our pure healthy material hearts in this world will be reflected in the next world. So, I do think a healthy heart is meant to be taken literally. Our actions and deeds and words affect our hearts. 

 

Brother @Cool, I think you're so fixated on the current (modern) definition and views of the heart and the body. When the Qur'an was revealed and when the narrations were said, no one viewed the body, the hearts, and the organs as they do today. 

Our modern view of the body lacks spirituality, and it's purely mechanistic. Spirits and divine light play no role in today's modern view of the body. 

We need to step away from trying to understand the usage of the word "Qalb" in the Qur'an by relying on today's usage of the word "Qalb". 

According to a Hasan narration, our faith/Iman is in our hearts. (اَلْإِيمَانُ مَا اِسْتَقَرَّ فِي اَلْقَلْبِ)

I'll my post with a simple Mawththaq narration: 

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اَلْعَبَّاسِ بْنِ مَعْرُوفٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اَلْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ اَلْمُخْتَارِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ يَقُولُ: يَكُونُ اَلْقَلْبُ مَا فِيهِ إِيمَانٌ وَ لاَ كُفْرٌ شِبْهَ اَلْمُضْغَةِ  أَ مَا يَجِدُ أَحَدُكُمْ ذَلِكَ.

A heart with neither faith or kufr in it is like a lump of meat

Our beliefs (good or bad) transform our heart from a "lump of meat" to something more. Our modern science/biology see our hearts as nothing more than a lump of meat that pump blood around the body. 

However, our Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have taught us that our hearts, our physical hearts, are much more than that. 

 

I do believe we have made plenty of posts. If you'd like to continue, let's narrow our to discussion to evaluation of narrations. Let's not waste time in the realm of conjectures. 

Find a narration, make sure its sanad is acceptable, bring it here and we'll talk about it. Otherwise, we can keep going back and forth without much result. 

Thanks!

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4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Let's not waste time in the realm of conjectures. 

I do agree with you to not waste further time. On a side note, there is big difference between hikmah & conjectures. I do understand hikmah as treasure for mo'min. 

الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): ظنُّ العاقِلِ أصَحُّ مِن يَقينِ الجاهِلِ. 

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘An intellectual man’s conjecture is sounder than an ignorant man’s certainty.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 6040]

 

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15 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Could you show (copy/paste) the narration that you mentioned? 

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): مَعرِفَةُ النَّفسِ أنفَعُ المَعارِفِ.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘The inner knowledge of the self is the most beneficial of all such knowledge.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 9865]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): نالَ الفَوزَ الأكبَرَ مَن ظَفِرَ بِمَعرِفَةِ النَّفسِ.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘The one who attains knowledge of his own self has obtained the greatest victory indeed.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 9965]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): كَيفَ يَعرِفُ غَيرَهُ مَن يَجهَلُ نَفسَهُ؟!

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘How can one who is ignorant of his own self expect to know others?!’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 6998]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): مَن عَرَفَ نَفسَهُ جاهَدَها ، مَن جَهِلَ نَفسَهُ أهمَلَها .

10– Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘He who gains inner knowledge of his self combats it, and he who remains ignorant of his self, neglects it.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, nos. 7855-7856]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): مَن عَرَفَ اللّه‏َ تَوَحَّدَ ، مَن عَرَفَ نَفسَهُ تَجَرَّدَ ، مَن عَرَفَ الدّنيا تَزَهَّدَ ، مَن عَرَفَ النّاسَ تَفَرَّدَ .

11– Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘He who attains inner knowledge of Allah leads a life of unity [reflecting Allah’s Divine Unity]; he who attains inner knowledge of his self strips himself [of all that hinders its progress]; he who attains inner knowledge about this world abstains from it; and he who attains inner knowledge about people prefers solitude.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, nos. 7829-7832]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): أكثَرُ النّاسِ مَعرِفَةً لِنَفسِهِ أخوَفُهُم لِرَبِّهِ .

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘The person who knows his self the best is he who fears his Lord the most.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 3126]

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): مَن عَرَفَ نَفسَهُ عَرَفَ رَبَّهُ .

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘He who attains inner knowledge of his self attains inner knowledge of his Lord.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, no. 7946]

الإمامُ زينَ العابدينُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدُّعاءِ ـ: واجعَلنا مِنَ الّذين عَرَفوا أنفُسَهُم ، وأيقَنوا بِمُستَقَرِّهِم ، فكانَت أعمارُهُم في طاعَتِكَ تَفنى.

 Imam Zayn al-Abidin ((عليه السلام).) said in one of his supplications, ‘Make us from among those who have attained inner knowledge of their selves and are convinced of their true abode, such that they spend their whole lives in Your obedience.’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 94, p. 128, no. 19]

الإمامُ الباقرُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في وَصِيَّتِهِ لِجابِرٍ الجُعفيِّ ـ: لا مَعرِفةَ كَمَعرِفَتِكَ بِنَفسِكَ.

Imam al-Baqir ((عليه السلام).) said in his advice to Jabir al-Ju’afi, ‘There is no inner knowledge like your inner knowledge of your own self.’[Tuhaf al-’Uqul, no. 286]

 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): مَن عَرَفَ نَفسَهُ جاهَدَها ، مَن جَهِلَ نَفسَهُ أهمَلَها .

10– Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘He who gains inner knowledge of his self combats it, and he who remains ignorant of his self, neglects it.’[Ghurar al-Hikam, nos. 7855-7856]

وَأَمَّا مَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ وَنَهَى النَّفْسَ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

فَإِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَىٰ

79:40-41

For the students of school of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), there is no excuse to say that they don' know what the nafs is.

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5 minutes ago, Cool said:

وَأَمَّا مَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ وَنَهَى النَّفْسَ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

فَإِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَىٰ

79:40-41

For the students of school of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), there is no excuse to say that they don' know what the nafs is.

Salam,

Subhanallah...

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19 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , I have seen it in a TV Show about NDE expriements in Iran which invited scholar has concluded that Nafs for having affection in this world needs human body & senses but Ruh/Soul is not dependant on body & senses which can affect others by other means likewise coming in dream & inspiring others whitout need to physical body & senses.

Alaikum Salam Bro.

Yes, I believe our souls can operate using our body & senses (physical way) or spiritually, or simultaneously. 

Wallahualam

 

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

For the students of school of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), there is no excuse to say that they don' know what the nafs is.

Here's the problem:

None of the narrations that you posted have any sanad. What this implies is that I cannot know whether Imam Ali (عليه السلام) really did utter those words or not. This is why I mentioned earlier that posting narrations without isnad is not helpful. 

So, you can believe these narrations at your own risk. But know this:

You're believing them, because they sound nice and fluffy to you. You're not believing them, because you're sure Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said these words. You can't be sure, because there are no isnad. 

If you have any narrations with isnad, then please post them. Otherwise, we'd be back in the realm of guesswork and conjectures.

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Here's the problem:

I can see where actually is the problem. I am not willing to mention it.

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

None of the narrations that you posted have any sanad. What this implies is that I cannot know whether Imam Ali (عليه السلام) really did utter those words or not. This is why I mentioned earlier that posting narrations without isnad is not helpful. 

So you have an excuse to not do jihad against "nafs" as you don't know, rather not willing to know what nafs is! 

This is a problem for you, not for me. We accept the sermons of Nehjul Balagha, I am wondering how you view those sermons! For you, Nehjul Balagha is not helpful, that is sad indeed.

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

you have any narrations with isnad, then please post them. Otherwise, we'd be back in the realm of guesswork and conjectures.

Imam Ja’far al‑Sadiq (a) said: “The Prophet (s) of God dispatched a contingent of the army (to the battlefront). Upon their (successful) return, he (s) said: ‘Blessed are those who have performed the minor jihad and have yet to perform the major jihad.’ When asked, ‘What is the major jihad?’ the Prophet (s) replied: ‘The jihad of the self (struggle against self)’”. [Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 19, p. 182, hadith no. 31]

Now see it chain of narrators and start telling me that fulan is weak, majhool, kazib, nasibi, etc. 

I wonder how you accept any hadith e barzakhi!!! Do you know what is hadith e barzakhi? Or what actually the hadith is? 

Hadith are the words of ma'soom. So assume you got the opportunity to have ziyarat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in your dream tonight and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tells you something or explain you something or command you to do something, what would be the status of those words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which he utter during your dream? Can you narrate the dream and the words you heard from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

Fulan bin fulan heard from fulan bin fulan who heard from fulan bin fulan who heard from his father who heard from Imam (عليه السلام) who said..... 

You believe this methodology takes you to sahih hadith. Its a joke, fact is that by this methodology thousands of ahadith has been created, falsly attributed to Ma'someen (عليه السلام). This is the problem of both Sunni & Shi'i hadith literature.

Those who have invented the ahadith, are responsible of their act. At this point of time, I don't know whether Imam Ali (عليه السلام) uttered those words or not. But I can accept any hadith if it is in line with the verses of Quran. 

So if Ghurar Al-Hikam mentions words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) "He who gains inner knowledge of his self combats it, and he who remains ignorant of his self, neglects it." And I find its confirmation from Quran, I have no objection to accept it as words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Wassalam!

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18 minutes ago, Cool said:

So you have an excuse to not do jihad against "nafs" as you don't know, rather not willing to know what nafs is! 

This is a problem for you, not for me.

I am obligated to follow the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). I am not obligated to follow what is not taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). I cannot be certain or confident that narrations without isnad are from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Historically, plenty of narrations have been fabricated to pass through an idea that was neither taught by nor endorsed by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

I prefer to be cautious and not follow what sounds nice but may not have been taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

If you're certain that these isnad-less narrations are words and teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), then go ahead and follow them. It's certainly a choice that you have available to you. 

25 minutes ago, Cool said:

At this point of time, I don't know whether Imam Ali (عليه السلام) uttered those words or not.

So, you're following what sounds nice to you, based on your understanding of the Qur'an. 

27 minutes ago, Cool said:

So if Ghurar Al-Hikam mentions words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) "He who gains inner knowledge of his self combats it, and he who remains ignorant of his self, neglects it." And I find its confirmation from Quran, I have no objection to accept it as words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Sure. Do as you please. It's your choice. 

Wassalam 

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11 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I am obligated to follow the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). I am not obligated to follow what is not taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). I cannot be certain or confident that narrations without isnad are from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Historically, plenty of narrations have been fabricated to pass through an idea that was neither taught by nor endorsed by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

I prefer to be cautious and not follow what sounds nice but may not have been taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

If you're certain that these isnad-less narrations are words and teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), then go ahead and follow them. It's certainly a choice that you have available to you. 

So, you're following what sounds nice to you, based on your understanding of the Qur'an. 

Sure. Do as you please. It's your choice. 

Wassalam 

Salam,

Even if we have mutawthir hadith presented, still it is subjected to interpretation and own understanding.  Same like Quran, subject to interpretation.  Understanding from one person to another person is different.  Even we claim that we only follow the teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), our interpretation can be wrong or not accurate. We as humans have limitation.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) reading Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem and we reading it, too different levels of understanding.  

Even between Abu Zarr and Salman, they had different levels of understanding, but both performed salah and read the same Quran.  Why are different levels ?  If Abu Zarr knows what Salman knew, he will be kafir.

For you, the belief start with isnad, then maybe those people who are Muhaddith, are the most guided person.  It is good personal preferences.  But, not the only way.  You can set your own criteria.  We will respect it.

For some people, they need to have more than that.

Let say we study about أَعُوْذُ بِاللّٰهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطٰانِ الرَّجِيْمِ

We may refer to Mufassirin, Muhaddith, or Scholars to understand what happen if we read the verse.  Then we put our trust on those who report to us.  That is ok.

What about for a person who reads the verse and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made him to witness how syaitans are removed from the body and souls?  He may not have access to hadiths or written texts.  Then someone comes to him and by chance  tell him few hadiths on the verse and confirm his experiences.  Will that be good also?  To some of us, events like this may happen.  It is part of guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

We have one of  the most mutawathir hadith:  "Hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt, you will not go astray...".  The issue is how to hold on.  You may interpret is to hold on to the Teachings of Ahlulbayt.  I may say, hold directly to Ahlulbayt (be with them or with their Light).  We make sujud toward Kaabah or sujud toward Baitulllah?  Kaabah is seen, while Baitullah is unseen.  But, if I am in Malaysia, I can't see the Kaabah, it does not mean I cannot be in Baitullah.

That is why we have discussion and let everyone express their understandings/experiences/written proofs.  We are not allowed to have followers, only Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are authorized to have followers.  We just sharing information not seeking to have followers.  Everyone is on his own in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and how we follow Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).  Hopefully, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our sincere efforts to hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), forgive our sins and guide us to the right path.

Wallahualam

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On 6/3/2021 at 3:00 AM, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

The bolded part of the following narration implies that Ruh is Nafs or Nafs is Ruh. This is a part of a longer narration.

Is there a way to read the bolded part below for it to NOT imply that the Ruh is same as the Nafs?

وَ رَوَى أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ اَلْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : فِي قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ «تَتَجٰافىٰ جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ اَلْمَضٰاجِعِ » فَقَالَ «لَعَلَّكَ تَرَى أَنَّ اَلْقَوْمَ لَمْ يَكُونُوا يَنَامُونَ» فَقُلْتُ اَللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ فَقَالَ «لاَ بُدَّ لِهَذَا اَلْبَدَنِ أَنْ تُرِيحَهُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ نَفْسُهُ فَإِذَا خَرَجَ اَلنَّفْسُ اِسْتَرَاحَ اَلْبَدَنُ وَ رَجَعَتِ اَلرُّوحُ فِيهِ وَ فِيهِ قُوَّةٌ عَلَى اَلْعَمَلِ فَإِنَّمَا ذَكَرَهُمْ فَقَالَ: «تَتَجٰافىٰ جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ اَلْمَضٰاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ

خَوْفاً وَ طَمَعاً»...

Thanks

 

 

 

Salam Alaikom, am so happy such topics come forward but I had intention to follow such topics through the different topic creation on same subject and use everything and will power to end the discussion and elevate our minds and understanding of the creation and ourselves. Of course together but guess shiachatters had other things to do, like me get offline or go through being active other places and not realising the importance of basic things. Alas happy to start reading through the topic. So far the issue of soul and spirit being one and it's explanation from our dear scholars have not convinced me. Maybe it's the way, of how to explain and have view on the subject that matters. And I do thing if properly explained there is nothing wrong to recognize that they are one and not two.

Albeit, in the hadith(without source!! PS. I know you have put energy to bring up the topic, so thanks for that) in mentions badan→body→بدن and not jasad→corpse→جسد this must be noted and reflected upon. And when the ruh→spirit→روح is detached we call it ruh and when it's attached we again call it ruh, while we know that the Arabs put name for all aspects of things and was even extreme in this case and of course essentially the Arabic language had the strength for them to do it. When ruh is attached what does it give to a corpse, to change the name of corpse and instead say a body!

Wishing health & Vitality for all

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On 6/3/2021 at 5:12 AM, SoRoUsH said:

I guess one way to read and understand it is that they can move in and out together, but they're not one and the same as each other. 

They both leave the body together during sleep, and they both re-enter the body together, when/if the person wakes up.

Salam, we can't say in first place they both are inside to than say they came out of body! Let us focus on nafs, I or whatever. This I is one but created of two things. Being created of two things does not mean it's two things. Or being functional purpose fully through two things does not mean it's two things, rather only oneness visible. Day and night, how to explain it through one word and phrase and define it through that one barzakhi phrase. And the mind should first see that one phrase and not dualities.

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On 6/3/2021 at 3:37 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Ruh cannot be nafs.

There are four types of Ruh inside believers: Ruh of faith, Ruh of power, Ruh of Lust, and Ruh of the body. 

According to narrations, Ruh of Faith/ایمان leaves the body, when a believer is in the middle of committing a sin. This Ruh will return after the completion of the sin, and after the believer has asked for forgiveness.

This being the case, we can tell at least Ruh of Faith is definitely not the same as Nafs. 

Salam, why four types and not graded and quality wise. A higher quality, oh wait, way of describing is important, let us say, the higher quality can not affect the body because there is a hinder, so it's disconnected not because it has problem, like it's not 'kind' but rather there is hinder. We have also narrations mentioning ruh is like clothes or sun ray. Why not working on such ahadith.

Another point is this ruh is most afar from the material sphere and most pure in the spiritual sphere itself, and it's Equivalent the corpse, or what a corpse is made of; could it be. Alas there is two way connection, the ruh gives life to corpse and makes it alive. The question is what does the most materially existence give to ruh?!

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40 minutes ago, Ali.Isa said:

The question is what does the most materially existence give to ruh?!

Salam, 

Perhaps this material existence gives ruh nothing but separation (in a sense).

The ruh (being command of God) get separated from divine essence.

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُواْ لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ

15:29) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.

We can only wonder about ruh. As "qaleel" knowledge has been granted about it. But there exist huge vastness in that قليلا 

 الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً

 

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6 hours ago, layman said:

Even if we have mutawthir hadith presented, still it is subjected to interpretation and own understanding.  Same like Quran, subject to interpretation. 

Here's a Hasan (Qudsi) narration:

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنه قال حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن أبيه عن الريان بن الصلت عن علي بن موسى الرضا عن أبيه عن آبائه عن أمير المؤمنين ع قال قال رسول الله ص قال الله جل جلاله ما آمن بي من فسر برأيه كلامي و ما عرفني من شبهني بخلقي و ما على ديني من استعمل القياس في ديني

 

From Al-Rayyaan bin Al-Salt from `Alee bin Moosa Al-RiDaa from his father from his fathers from Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said: The Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Allaah (جل جلاله) said: ‘No one believes in me whoever interprets my words with his own opinions, and no one recognizes me whoever likens me to my creations, and no one is upon my religion whoever employs Qiyaas (analogical reasoning) in my religion’”

7 hours ago, layman said:

It is good personal preferences.  But, not the only way. 

It is not just a personal preference, when you learn that we ought to rely only on reliable people, when it comes to receiving and obtaining the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). The essence of Ilm al-Rijal is to study narrators and identify the reliable ones, from whom we can receive narrations of our Imams (عليه السلام) reliably.

7 hours ago, layman said:

I may say, hold directly to Ahlulbayt (be with them or with their Light).

??

Other narrations clarify the narration of Thaqalayn. We cannot truly understand either Qur'an or the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) without each other. In other words, the only way to understand the Qur'an is through Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), via their authentic narrations, and the only way to understand the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), their greatness and position, is through the Qur'an. 

7 hours ago, layman said:

Hopefully, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our sincere efforts to hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), forgive our sins and guide us to the right path.

انشاالله

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4 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

We have also narrations mentioning ruh is like clothes or sun ray. Why not working on such ahadith.

Could you please post these narrations and include their isnad, too? 

Thank you

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On 6/3/2021 at 4:15 PM, layman said:

Salam,

Ruh (spirit) is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to make the body alive.  If it leaves the body, we die.  We know nothing about the Ruh.  It is something from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Nafs (souls) is almost similar to ruh but with free wills.  Nafs is the essense of a human.  It can leave the body when we sleep.  The function of Nafs is to make decision on how to use the body in the physical world.

Whether nafs do sins / good, Ruh will still stay in the body so the physical parts of the body will function accordingly.  Nafs can absorded Light / Darkness.  All physical faculties of the body are attached to the Nafs.  If the sexual urge comes from the body (which is nature of physical body), the nafs must find ways to relieve it.  Otherwise the nafs will get constant signal from sexual part of the body.  The signal can overload the nafs.

If a person knows how to control his nafs and make the nafs absorbed by the Light (because Light has power), then the Nafs can make better decision.  Nafs can be incited by other faculties such seeing, hearing, smell, logics and intelligent.  Our Nafs can be influenced by media, friends, .... outside the body that enter through seeing, hearing, smell, logics and intelligent (brain functions...we call psychology / cognitive).

The heart is a faculty for the Nafs to interface with "unseen" realms  (no space or time attached to it).  Nafs can get help from unseen realms.  Example, through worship or doas or interface directly with those who are ALIVE.  Nafs can in be touch with syaitan and jinn too (when failure to protect the heart).  So we much protect the Nafs by relying on the Light.

 

This is my understanding and correct me if I am wrong.

Wallahualam.

Salam Alaikom

Yes, ruh makes the jism alive and we than call it badan→body. But why not see it this way that the nafs is alive through ruh and jism and doing consumption through them to later become independent from both!?

 

Can't we say nafs is itself human and it's essence is aql→ilm→bayan. So when we say nafs we mean of course a human being... Imagine a plant resting when the sun is not there, can a flower have sunlight all day or it needs night. I mean we humans rest for a reason but why is it that the plant need night, how does it get worked out by sun rays shining over it... Is the night for the nafs or its for the body. 

 

Third paragraph: please write more what you mean here, don't get it really but for the example mentioned; Having sexual pleasure or urge has not bodily source. Does not come from body and go towards nafs, it's actually the opposite!?

 

P4: why control the nafs! When a plant grows not properly, the gardener may now and than cut some leaves or branches, or even cut some dry branches to make the plant healthy again for a more upright and proper growth. So the main thing is growth, we are in the process of growth, if we want or not does not matter, the thing is it's not stoppable. So we have to make sure to grow properly firstly, through nutritional soil with water and sun with air, 'cause we are the plant and the gardener at the same time. Secondly musharita muraqiba muhasibeh...

 

Nice written, hope you get more advanced. Keep it up.

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Alaikum Salam Bro,

17 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

Yes, ruh makes the jism alive and we than call it badan→body. But why not see it this way that the nafs is alive through ruh and jism and doing consumption through them to later become independent from both!?

Ok.  Ruh and Jism will not be accountable in hereafter.  Ruh and Jism just to accommodate the Nafs while in the world.

 

17 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

Can't we say nafs is itself human and it's essence is aql→ilm→bayan. So when we say nafs we mean of course a human being... Imagine a plant resting when the sun is not there, can a flower have sunlight all day or it needs night. I mean we humans rest for a reason but why is it that the plant need night, how does it get worked out by sun rays shining over it... Is the night for the nafs or its for the body. 

Nafs is something from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is in a pure at the beginning.  The earlier stage is a Ruh before entering the body.  Then it descends to this world and given free will.  That initial stage of a Nafs is still sinless when we in the womb (the place of making functional human)  and we are kid.

When Nafs is put in a human (since baby), the Nafs is in new unfamiliar territory.  Nafs has given aql (intelligent...know to distinguish right and wrong, and posses learn ability).  But nature, Nafs always yearn to return to the Ruh stage (return to his Origin), always want to be with the truth. Because a human will feel peaceful when their Nafs holding on to the Truth.

As the jism (badan) or body grows up, the Nafs that control the body needs guidance while in unfamiliar territory (world) and when interacting with other humans (who also have Nafs in them).  Nafs is constantly in learning process in the unfamiliar territory.

The body  is solely made up of "soft tissues", meaning the body is made up of living cells that need vitamins, oxygens, minerals... to grow and be healthy.  The body is given sexual drive so it can multiply.  The body given brain and other senses so it can be used for the progress (calculate, compute, estimate, design, memorize....) of human beings, such as making tools, machinery, medicine, electronics, computers...  The body will age, need rest and recovery, be taken care of in term of safety to it will continue to grown without harm.

Who control the well being of the whole body when in used...the Nafs.  For muslims, it is haram to harm the body.

I hope my explanation is similar to your.

18 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

Third paragraph: please write more what you mean here, don't get it really but for the example mentioned; Having sexual pleasure or urge has not bodily source. Does not come from body and go towards nafs, it's actually the opposite!?

In the body we have hormone that will drive sexual need in the body.  It will trigger the Nafs that control the desires (eating, sex, all other organs) for survival of the body.  These desires must be fulfilled.  If we do not eat, we will die.  Nafs have many faculties of controls (intelligent, desires,....) the body.  Within the Nafs, the faculty that control the desires will communicate with faculty of intelligent (aql) and decide what to do.  How to eat, what to eat, when to eat... so on.  The final stage the Nafs will use the built in ability in the Nafs (to distinguish the value between between good and bad... "fal hamaha fujuu roha wattaqwa ha") to make final decision on how, when, why to eat.  The same apply to sexual urge.

We need to brighten and strength the inherent faculty in Nafs, specifically on the ability to "distinguish the value between good and bad".  If we don't, we will fulfil the urges for food or sex required by the body in uncontrolled ways. 

 

18 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

P4: why control the nafs! When a plant grows not properly, the gardener may now and than cut some leaves or branches, or even cut some dry branches to make the plant healthy again for a more upright and proper growth. So the main thing is growth, we are in the process of growth, if we want or not does not matter, the thing is it's not stoppable. So we have to make sure to grow properly firstly, through nutritional soil with water and sun with air, 'cause we are the plant and the gardener at the same time. Secondly musharita muraqiba muhasibeh...

Nafs is unseen part of human.  Body is just physical part.  Nafs control the body.  If we allow the body control the nafs, the we be like animal.

 

Bro,

We only talk about the Nafs at the level of controlling the body and interfacing with the physical world.  Nafs is unseen and it yearn to return to the origin.  We are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we are returning to Him.  The process requires help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and this is spiritual part of nafs.  We are given faculty called, the heart.  Use the heart to attach the Nafs to higher dimension. That  will transform the nafs to higher level...tazkiyah bi Nafs.  Higher level means our Nafs is controlled by Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

Wallahualam.

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Posted (edited)

 

On 6/3/2021 at 5:08 PM, SoRoUsH said:

There are at least five different types of Ruh. Ruh al-Quds is only from the prophets and the Imams. Ruh of Faith is only for believers. 

So, we need to qualify your statement. If all of the Ruhs inside of us leave, then we die. However, we know for a fact, that Ruh al-iman leaves, when the believers sin, and they don't drop dead. 

May be if the Ruh of the Body (روح البدن) leaves, then we die. 

Is Nafs our consciousness?

روح الایمان leaves the body of the believers when they are sinning. 

It is likely that sexual urge may emerge or may be cause by Ruh of Lust (روح الشهوة), which is a type of Ruh in all people. 

Your view of Nafs makes it seem like it is the same as our Consciousness. 

We know according to narrations that Ruh and Aql reside in the heart. We have no narration stating that the Nafs is in the heart. 

In my opinion, there's a gradient of things existing. Ruh inside our heart is if a very subtle nature. Nafs, whatever it is, is less subtle than Ruh, but certainly more subtle than our physical bodies. 

In my opinion, The Heart functions as a transcriber of Ruh's light. Our Nafs reads and performs whatever the heart transcribes. And it is our hearts that is influenced by our deeds. The more closely we follow the Shari'a, the more accurately will the light from the Ruh be transcribed for the Nafs; the more influence will the Ruh have on us. 

Salam Alaikom

The hadith mentioning the different spirits, have been narrated 3 times with differences. May come back for more explanation. Albeit we have bacteria cells, plant cells and animal cells!

The spirit of faith is for human kind; thus, could be when nafs is in the stage of nafs lawamah or maybe we can name it even consciousness. When the person lowers to 'nafs ammarah be soooo', certain that person does not possess human characteristics, thus an animal or worst than an animal. [For here please refer to the ahadith, would be thankful to talk about its asnad]

The spirit of faith and ruh l-aql could be the same thing, cause of sleep; ruh l-aql is no longer active for the human being through its jism Maddi. But it's active and doing adventure somewhere... [Ahadith below]

Who said ruh l-Shawa must be translated as ruh of lust; than defining ruh of lust as being after sexual pleasure only. روح الشهوه here could mean all things a human being likes, like eating, being with friends, talking and so on, which in different version of the hadith it's explained, and fiqh lughat and fiqh hadith could also support the issue, shawa has a general meaning in fiqh lughat and here based on even context not designed for only lust. Anything nice and comfortable you want it, for yourself. So it's through this phase of ruh you can work for it to achieve it.

Some clarifications:

جسد is specifically meant for a limited shaped form which could be for human or an animal and so forth living beings. Which does not of course have any kind of ruh.

جسم I used because its more proper than corpse and کلی that said generalized and even used in philosophy to explain things easier. Jism could be opposite of ruh in our context in this topic.

بدن of course human body (because we are doing mubahisah on human being) which have spirit and life thus even the lowest as such named ruh l-badan...

 

BEING: isn't this for, let's check hadith! what to name it...

روح←نفس→جسم

How can we explain it based on tawhid thought and mindset so no three or duality is visible...

Again, nafs does not need to be only consciousness or mindset, rather it's what it gets and absorbs, consumes from either jism or ruh. Ruh has a reality and jism another reality, what do they exchange that the nafs benefits of it and grow accordingly. Because there is no guarantee that we will have ruh Iman and this human bodily form in judgement day.

GROWTH: isn't this for mother's womb...

نفس انسانی

↓↑

نفس حیوانی

↓↑

نفس نباتی

Here we mean not any nafs but nafs insani. Of course in nafs insani other nufus and characteristics exists, our nafs grows into being nafs insani. So when we talk about them while talking about human being, because it's dependent on human nafs and not independent. So no independent talk of nafs Hawani.

PERFECTION: isn't it for this world!

نفس اماره← نفس لوامه← نفس مطمئنه

And this is about the quality of nafs insani. When nafs insani is available, we talk about if it's lawamah or motmaini, otherwise if we are talking independent about nafs Haywani there is no point to mention lawamah or motmaini issues for an animal or animal kingdom.

 

Why saying that the ruh is in heart, does ruh have a place? Could not that place be brain? How could ruh have a place, in this case which ruh? Just because it's not mentioned in narration maybe because Arabs could not believe it actually, so they just used heart for both cases, mindset and heartset. But it does not mean they did not understand the importance of head and دماغ. Here fiqh lughat and Arab culture and usage of the word is very helpful, because even if hadith has sahih sanad and we don't use proper fiqh lughat and fiqh hadith we can not properly benefit from that hadith and words of Ahl l-Bait Peace upon Them and understand their way of thinking and tawhid patterns and gradually be like them, for more guidance...

The issue of ruhs light, please explain it more?

Note: I can not put these ahadith here properly cause using tablet and edit options limited for me to edit text from left to right. 

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/254212/translate?rownumber=1

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/186013/translate

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/259999/translate?rownumber=2

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/218470/translate

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/439585/translate

Edited by Ali.Isa
Space edits for shorter post. Word correction. Links deletion and sorted.
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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2021 at 12:01 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Why is this the case? 

Based on the numerous narrations that I've read, this isn't and shouldn't be the case. Qalb is always that which is inside the chest (صدر). 

Salam Alaikom, sure but here we must know فقه لغة and فقه حدیث. Our ulema who knows says for example in the Holy Quran qalb has been used for mind also.

On 6/4/2021 at 9:35 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Here's an important point to remember: 

It is only in the past 3-4 centuries that the human heart has become to be seen as a mere mechanical pump. 

This was not the case prior to the modern age, and it certainly wasn't the case when the Qur'an was revealed. 

And I am speaking about the heart, the organ, in our chests. 

As you've probably noticed, the word "brain" isn't even used in the Qur'an. 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:09 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Has he at all, or at least, justified his position via acceptable narrations? 

Like above, this statement has no validity, if we read and follow the acceptable narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

This is totally baseless. Are there any acceptable narration that supports this statement? 

At best, these statements are mere conjectures of the "Urafa", based on their research outside and beyond the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

At this point, I welcome any acceptable narration that would support any of these above statements. 

 

I like the way you approach ahadith, remembers me of Ayatollah Khorasani-May Allah prolong His blessed life -, all ahadith in his works and speeches are foolproof and Sahih s-Sanad. But we need to learn also the science of Arabic words, it's lacking in this topic greatly between us. And thus unnecessary talks... It's very nice if one can make teams in shiachat and together take different rules to start and finish a topic for the benefit of learning and advancing in educating our selves and others. Of course at the same time discussing. It has been in my mind to properly cover a topic we need to start topics team wise, one controls that all ahadith is Sahih, and finds hadith for the discussion, another one another role...

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2021 at 4:28 PM, Cool said:

There is no mention of the ruh which gives someone life. 

The one which is breathed into the Adam (عليه السلام). 

The above five types are just mentioning the ones by which things are recognized, presence of Allah (or His fear) is realized, obedience is maintained, disobedience is repelled etc... 

Salam Alaikom, yes it's mentioned but with different name and title which is wrong, that said the last one:  فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ

On 6/6/2021 at 11:36 PM, Shahrukh K said:

Ruh is uncreated and cannot be destroyed, it is from Allah, 
nafs is creation of Allah.

Body is hardware, nafs is operating system and ruh (real you) is the user (witness). 
Body communicates with ruh through nafs.
Ruh witness/experience the illusory world through nafs. 
If at the time of death the nafs is dissolved/converted into nafs e mutmainnah you will be in jannah, otherwise again you will be in jahannum.

Salam Alaikom, very interesting, based on what mindset are you saying ruh is uncreated please explain? Just because it cannot be destroyed your saying it's not created. Do you mean when we die than corpse destroyed but spirit no, in this context you mean. Did I get you right!

Very nice example, and great usage of the power of imagination. But it could BE more presice. You broke the example when mentioning ruh as user. From example which is made by the power of imagination for us to understand things you came into the real world. So you did not complete the مثال. 

You combined قوه حس and قوه خیال improperly thus misusing قوه عاقله which makes...

Like body is hardware with keyboard and mouse of course. Nafs is middleWARE and spirit OS. All is a one package, that said you in mirror. And when you look yourself in mirror\ex.phone, whatever you do you see. There is the mirror and there is you, both outside and in the mirror, it's here which gets complicated, because of precision and the issues of time and space and this and that... Tawhid and rules of tawhid governs also on human inventions.

Edited by Ali.Isa
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1 hour ago, Ali.Isa said:

#1) Weak

#2) Weak

However, the notion that there are two ears on the heart is supported in narrations. Also, the notion that there's a shaytan and a guide on the heart is supported, too. 

Nevertheless, this narration that you posted, with its wordings ad they are, is weak.

#3) Weak

#4) Weak

#5) Weak

If you disagree with my assessment, I'm certainly open to hear your evaluation of the isnad of these narrations. It must be added that most of them didn't have any sanad. 

I pulled out a few keywords to search for them in other books, but didn't find any narrations, similar in content, with acceptable isnad.

So, if your views are based on these narrations, then they're based on weak narrations; implying we can't know if these are the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or not, and even if they are, we can't know how accurately they have been transmitted. 

I wouldn't rely on these narrations, but obviously, you have a choice. 

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Love my believers brothers and sisters for sake of God.

This an impressive discussion and mashallah on the akhlaq (inner manners/virtues) you guys displayed to one another.

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