Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Nafs (نفس) = The Spirit (روح)?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member
8 hours ago, Cool said:

أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا أَوْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا فَإِنَّهَا لَا تَعْمَى الْأَبْصَارُ وَلَكِن تَعْمَى الْقُلُوبُ الَّتِي فِي الصُّدُورِ

22:46

Is this profound verse mentioning nafs as qalb? لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا

What is meant by "eyes of the heart"? Do hearts have eyes? 

No. It's qalb as qalb. 

As I mentioned earlier, it is only within the past 4-5 centuries that modern science has defined the heart as a mechanical pump. 

Before that, for example in the writings of Aristotle and Ibn Rushd, the heart was the seat of the Spirit or the Intellect. It was a sensorium, and the main perceiver of the world. 

The Qur'an was revealed centuries before the Qalb was re-interpreted as a mechanical pump. This an extremely important fact. 

We should not assume that Islam views our physical hearts as a mere pump. There's a direct connection between Aql and the physical heart.

Most people, nowadays, have a very hard time viewing the heart other than a mere mechanical pump, and that's why they have a very hard time understanding the usage of the heart in the Qur'an. So they keep thinking when "qalb" is used, it can't be the physical heart. 

Keep in mind, the word "brain" is never mentioned in the Qur'an. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
7 hours ago, layman said:

Salam Bro,  I believe you are more aware about this issue than myself.  Please educate me.

 

Walaikum Salam bro,

I don’t have much knowledge about it but Ibn Arabi relates it to the Prophetic (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) hadith man arafa nafsahu faqad arafa rabbahu (whoever has gnosis of himself, has gnosis of His Lord). He says one who witnesses himself witnesses His Lord, moving from certainty of knowledge to the certainty of the eye and when he returns to his body, he returns to the certainty of the truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

The truth or essence of who you are is totally unaffected of anything. The true self is your inner divinity or your divine nature or the presence of God within you. Rooh, your essential nature is full, complete perfect. It is the true source of happiness. However this inner reality is well hidden it concealed or covered by veil of ignorance. That inner reality remain unknown, unrecognised, unrealised. But the inner reality is actually the truth of yourself  so how can you remain unknown ?
This is the problem here, a problem that we can call self non recognition. 
Self non recognition means failure to know your true nature to be full, complete.
This veil of ignorance conceal the divine reality within you so it must be removed. Ignorance is of course can be removed by knowledge. Ignorance of your true nature can be removed by knowledge of your true self. This self knowledge can be gain through Quran and only Quran.
The teaching in Quran will lead you step by step to discover who you are. The discovery of your true nature is results in complete freedom from suffering.
What is your true nature ?
That which exist unconditionally. To exist unconditionally is to be timeless eternal unborn uncreated. Existing eternally before your present birth. You are consciousness unlike the insentient things like rocks and clouds etc. You have the power to know to feel to experience things. Whenever you say "i"  you refer to your true nature that is rooh. Rooh is the core or essence of who you are.
While you are sleeping or in a coma the body is gone in a manner of speaking, yet you will exist.

Extraordinary qualities of your true nature is concealed by the veil of ignorance.
Veil of Ignorance so to speak is not totally opaque it is somewhat transparent like thin sheer fabric. if an object is covered by this kind of fabric we will know that something is there but you would not know what it is. ignorance partially obscure your true nature. Veil of ignorance allow you to know that you are conscious, but it does not allow you to know the extra ordinary nature of that consciousness.
Suppose you are completely free from veil of ignorance how would you look upon this body ?
If you truly discovered yourself to be a conscious being, utterly independent of your body that will change the way you perceive  this body. As the veil of ignorance getting thinner and thinner allowing the reality to appear with more and more clarity, you will come to know your extraordinary qualities of your true nature.
As this happens your relationship with body will undergo a dramatic transformation. You began to look at your body like any other possession. Now when the sensation of pain arises in your body it will not affect you as a conscious being, Rooh. As this pain will not affect you, you will not go through all the suffering and anguish that you once did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
7 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I always thought of Nafs as the ego. Our sense of an individual identity. That's where jihad an-nafs comes from I think. 

Salam,

This is my understanding.

When the "I" exist in the Nafs, then that is Ego.  When the "I" ceased to exist, and replaced with the Real Owner (Rabbil aalamin), then the Nafs turned into "Slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "

From that point on, it is up to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to steer the Nafs in the Ship of Salvation (Muhammad wa aale Muhammad).

May all of us remove the Ego in our Nafs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I always thought of Nafs as the ego. Our sense of an individual identity. That's where jihad an-nafs comes from I think. 

 

21 minutes ago, layman said:

When the "I" exist in the Nafs, then that is Ego. 

But how do you explain the fact that this nafs leaves the body during sleep and re-enters when it's time to wake up? 

Your individual identity isn't something that leaves and returns. Your ego doesn't leave and return. But your consciousness does. You "lose" consciousness when you're sleeping, and it returns to you, when you wake up. 

 

Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 42:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

 

Allah takes the NAFS at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

Edited by SoRoUsH
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
18 hours ago, layman said:

Three different stages / levels (not three distinct things).

Based on all the narrations that I've read, I don't think this is the case. They are three distinct things. Interrelated, maybe; but not a spectrum or different stages of the same thing.

18 hours ago, layman said:

Our inner self can stay at the level of nafs (duality), Qalb (in between) and Ruh (Tawhid). 

The way I see it, again based on narrations, is that Qalb is indeed in between the two worlds, material and spiritual; however, it is not stage, rather it translates the light from the spiritual world into the physical world. It acts as a gate between the two world, with Ruh on one side and the body on the other.

18 hours ago, layman said:

Shakir 15:29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him

They were ordered to prostrate to Adam, when he was complete, Ruh and body; not just Ruh. Adam's body is just as significant. God kneaded the mud/clay, for forty days, with His own two hands. This fact signifies how sacred, how holy, and how special the very body of Adam, which is made of clay/mud is. 

So, it's a mistake to dismiss the holiness of the body and only focus on the holiness of the Ruh. 

Iblees and angels were ordered to prostrate to Adam, body and Ruh.

18 hours ago, layman said:

Nafs is at the lowest level of inner self (and always attached to the body).

Except when it leaves the body, during sleep. So, not always. 

18 hours ago, layman said:

When the inner self submit to the Nafs, the Nafs will dominate the inner self. 

I don't view the inner self and nafs as two distinct entities. Inner self, nafs, and consciousness are one and the same, most likely.

18 hours ago, layman said:

The inner self can totally give up free wills

This statement is false. 

Free will is an essential part of being human. A human being cannot "give up" free will, in the same way that he cannot give up his brain or liver. 

A better way to say it is that the inner self/nafs/consciousness becomes completely aligned or enveloped by the holy light. And though it could commit evil, it won't, because it can see everything clearly with the given holy light. 

18 hours ago, layman said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is one example of a person who detached his inner self from the control of his nafs.

No, he didn't. And if you read the narrations on the issue of infallibility, you'd notice that this is the case. He (عليه السلام), as a human, could have committed evil. He had that capacity, as a human being, but he (عليه السلام) chose, willingly, to not even get close to evil. He (عليه السلام) had the light of Ruh Al-quds with him. 

Wassalam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

 

Your individual identity isn't something that leaves and returns. Your ego doesn't leave and return. But your consciousness does. You "lose" consciousness when you're sleeping, and it returns to you, when you wake up. 

 

 

Nafs can have acquired Characteristics.

Ego is one of characters that can easily acquired by Nafs. If the Nafs be a slave of itself, then the Nafs is having Ego Characteristic.  But, if the Nafs totally submitted to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Nafs turns itself to "Nafs Muthamainah"

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ {27}

[Shakir 89:27] O soul that art at rest!

ارْجِعِي إِلَىٰ رَبِّكِ رَاضِيَةً مَرْضِيَّةً {28}

[Shakir 89:28] Return to your Lord, well-pleased (with him), well-pleasing (Him),

فَادْخُلِي فِي عِبَادِي {29}

[Shakir 89:29] So enter among My servants,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

But how do you explain the fact that this nafs leaves the body during sleep and re-enters when it's time to wake up? 

Your individual identity isn't something that leaves and returns. Your ego doesn't leave and return. But your consciousness does. You "lose" consciousness when you're sleeping, and it returns to you, when you wake up. 

 

Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 42:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

 

Allah takes the NAFS at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

I have wrote before... which i said

1.  Nafs is similar to the characteristics of a Ruh,  except it has free wills.  Either to submit to itself (ego) or submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (become Abdullah).

2.  Many scholars just name the Nafs as Souls.  Meaning it has characteristics of a Ruh with free wills and to float from the level of satanic to Godly characteristics.  It is upto the each Soul (each human) to station itself to the level he/she wishes.

3.  For the sake of discussion, you refer the Nafs as Consciousness, i refer it as Inner Self (unseen).

 

SINCE the Nafs is similar characteristics as to RUH (but it not full blown Ruh because the total Ruh has no free wills), the NAFS CAN LEAVE the physical body during sleep.

For some selected individuals, the Nafs can leave the body at anytime.

The actual Ruh that control the body cannot leave the body.  If that Ruh leaves, the body will experience physical death. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
55 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Based on all the narrations that I've read, I don't think this is the case. They are three distinct things. Interrelated, maybe; but not a spectrum or different stages of the same thing.

 

I would politely request you to put all the narrations here with translations so everyone can read.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
58 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

The way I see it, again based on narrations, is that Qalb is indeed in between the two worlds, material and spiritual; however, it is not stage, rather it translates the light from the spiritual world into the physical world. It acts as a gate between the two world, with Ruh on one side and the body on the other.

Wassalam

I am in agreement with you on this.  It is just a matter of explanation between you and me.  

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

They were ordered to prostrate to Adam, when he was complete, Ruh and body; not just Ruh. Adam's body is just as significant. God kneaded the mud/clay, for forty days, with His own two hands. This fact signifies how sacred, how holy, and how special the very body of Adam, which is made of clay/mud is. 

So, it's a mistake to dismiss the holiness of the body and only focus on the holiness of the Ruh. 

Iblees and angels were ordered to prostrate to Adam, body and Ruh.

 

We don't discredit the body.

The BEST example for prostration of Adam (عليه السلام) by Angels is our own KAABAH.

Kaabah is physical and holy.

Baitullah is the Ruh aspect of the Kaabah.

So we make sujud to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) toward Kaabah inside Baitullah.

This is same case for what Angels did to Adam (عليه السلام).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

This statement is false. 

Free will is an essential part of being human. A human being cannot "give up" free will, in the same way that he cannot give up his brain or liver. 

 

As long as a person determines to live the free wills stay.

All Shuhadas give up that free wills and give their Nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in total submission.

Those who left Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) the night before Ashura, kept their free wills.  Those who stayed and gave their nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) along with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has sold their Nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon thems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
18 minutes ago, layman said:

As long as a person determines to live the free wills stay.

All Shuhadas give up that free wills and give their Nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in total submission.

Those who left Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) the night before Ashura, kept their free wills.  Those who stayed and gave their nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) along with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has sold their Nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon thems.

You can not give up free will, it is part of the essence of Insaan. You need a free will to choose the action. You said that they gave their nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), what you probably mean is that they try to follow whatever God is pleased on. For every action to please God, they need to choose to act upon it, that is itself from free will. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, layman said:

I would politely request you to put all the narrations here with translations so everyone can read

I would, but it would take so long, since there are many narrations scattered in different chapters of different books. I don't have that time now. I've been researching and reading various related narrations for months, and that's how I formed my views. So, I have to pass on this request. I apologize. But I am confident that if you take on this journey, and focus on the acceptable narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), you'll see what I see. 

 

Brother @layman, as I read your latest replies, I noticed that there are certain fundamental differences that we disagree on, and arguing about them won't get us anywhere. So, let's just say that, at this point, we agree on some issues and disagree on others. 

WaSsalam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 6/10/2021 at 11:20 AM, SoRoUsH said:

I would, but it would take so long, since there are many narrations scattered in different chapters of different books. I don't have that time now. I've been researching and reading various related narrations for months, and that's how I formed my views. So, I have to pass on this request. I apologize. But I am confident that if you take on this journey, and focus on the acceptable narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), you'll see what I see. 

 

Brother @layman, as I read your latest replies, I noticed that there are certain fundamental differences that we disagree on, and arguing about them won't get us anywhere. So, let's just say that, at this point, we agree on some issues and disagree on others. 

WaSsalam

Salamualaikum Bro.

We all in the journey and we are looking for guidance in our own capabilities and capabilities. Regardless of our differences in understandings, we ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to guide all us.

Wal

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 6/10/2021 at 10:26 AM, Abu Nur said:

You can not give up free will, it is part of the essence of Insaan. You need a free will to choose the action. You said that they gave their nafs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), what you probably mean is that they try to follow whatever God is pleased on. For every action to please God, they need to choose to act upon it, that is itself from free will. 

Salam,

How would we want our free will for every action originated?

1. Totally from syaitan.

2. Totally from the self 

3.  Totally from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

It will depend on how we worship (or surrender the command of the self to). 

Insaan kameel, will surrender his free will to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  His actions are based on the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Whatever he does is based on Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) planning. He is like a robot, or be guided.

Wallahualam...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, layman said:

Salam,

Insaan kameel, will surrender his free will to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  His actions are based on the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Whatever he does is based on Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) planning. He is like a robot, or be guided.

Wallahualam...

 

Wa Aleikum Salam,

In every action human need to choose it, that what makes it free. What you are describing is the nature of the action (three possibilities), and the best of them is action based on what God love. You can decide that you want to do everything according to What God loves, still in every event you will always have three possibilities to choose, this ability to choose is the free will.

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Wa Aleikum Salam,

In every action human need to choose it, that what makes it free. What you are describing is the nature of the action (three possibilities), and the best of them is action based on what God love. You can decide that you want to do everything according to What God loves, still in every event you will always have three possibilities to choose, this ability to choose is the free will.

When a person is alive, he has to decide to follow between right or wrong (he has those 3 choices).  We can agree on this part.

When a person is dead, he enters the Barzakh  he no longer has the free wills.  Whatever happened after that is according to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He just accept and witness what will take place.  We all will taste the death and we have to give up our free will.  We can agree on this too.

Our life is a journey from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  For some people, their main focus is limited to living in the current world during the journey.  They have much to decide.  Some already reached akhirah (higher world) while their body is standing on the earth.  Their body just doing what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) want them to do as a slave. They enter Barzakh and beyond, before the physical death comes.

Holy Prophet said: "Whoever wants to see a dead man walking, let him see Ali ibn Abi Talib."

We are now in the stage where we are trying (we use the free will to choose the right way) to be slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Some already a slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  A slave is doing what The Master Will him to do.

 

Edited by layman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, layman said:

Holy Prophet said: "Whoever wants to see a dead man walking, let him see Ali ibn Abi Talib."

This is an figurative statement. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) literally was alive in this world with the attributes of free will to choose. As they are currently alive and have sustenance from their Lord, they still also have an free will to choose.

Quote

Some already reached akhirah (higher world) while their body is standing on the earth.  Their body just doing what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) want them to do as a slave. They enter Barzakh and beyond, before the physical death comes

Yes but the "free will" will not vanish from them. It is still there and they are using it to choose what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) likes.

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
2 hours ago, layman said:

Our life is a journey from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  For some people, their main focus is limited to living in the current world during the journey.  They have much to decide.  Some already reached akhirah (higher world) while their body is standing on the earth.  Their body just doing what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) want them to do as a slave. They enter Barzakh and beyond, before the physical death comes.

This is just a common Sufi rhetoric and poetry, all fluff but no substance, not based in any teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

I would welcome any acceptable narrations, with acceptable isnad, to support such rhetoric. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This is just a common Sufi rhetoric and poetry, all fluff but no substance, not based in any teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

I would welcome any acceptable narrations, with acceptable isnad, to support such rhetoric. 

Are you familiar with works by Allamah Tabatabie?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2021 at 4:55 PM, SoRoUsH said:

No. It's qalb as qalb. 

I think I would disagree here with you. 

 

أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا

Qalb is not like Aqeeq or any other precious stone which one can find by travelling throughout the earth. So what does the verse means when it says "have they not journeyed about the earth so that they may get the hearts through which they reflect"? 

What is the relationship of Qalb & Ta"aqqul (تعقل)? There certainly is a relationship between nafs & ta'aqqul.

Edited by Cool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This is an figurative statement. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) literally was alive in this world with the attributes of free will to choose. As they are currently alive and have sustenance from their Lord, they still also have an free will to choose.

The Light within them decide and control their actions. 

7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes but the "free will" will not vanish from them. It is still there and they are using it to choose what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) likes.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choose, they abide by submission.  They cannot have options.  Total submission. No options mean, the person cannot impose his independent wills.  Just like after a person experienced a death.  Accept whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) imposed Wills on them. No free will.  Just pure submission.

They just witness the Grand Majestic Power to rule on their nafs and body. Very pleasurable experiences...i guess.  Total peace in the heart. All they are doing is praising Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has satisfied with them. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will for them to be sad, they be sad; to eat than they will eat,...the Prophet to marry Aisha and retained her until he passed away, he just did that..whether that was painful physically...that is not the issue, not a matter of choice.  He could have marry other woman, superior to Aisha.

Once a while  we may experience how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) takes charge of our action on certain issues.

I once experienced while driving a car and about to cross a junction.  While i was slowly put on my accelerator and turning left, then all of sudden my right foot slammed very hard on the brake. The car suddenly stopped, almost cause me and my friend head to smash the windshield.  A very fast car just passed infront of us. My friend asked, did you see the fast car before accelerated to the left, and i said...no.  So you pressed the hard brake so we got hit?  I just quiet.  The fact was, I didn't see the fast car and i didn't pressed the hard brake. What I learned, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can have total control on our body and souls.  Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) know the reasons.

I understand what my dear Bro @Abu Nur explanation.  Please, i am not opposing his view.  Just i also have different understanding.

The hand of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that lifted the door of Khaibar, killed Umar ibnul Abu Wad (khandaq) and killed all the Qureash that wanted to kill the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)...through the body and sword of Ali (عليه السلام).

When we love Ali (عليه السلام),is equivalent of loving the Prophet and loving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). We know WHO rules the nafs of Ali (عليه السلام). Everything he did is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). What he instructed us are mandatory to follow, because everything he did were from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
3 hours ago, layman said:

Are you familiar with works by Allamah Tabatabie?

Yes. However, what's more important for me is the acceptable narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Without the support of acceptable narrations, any views of any scholars is mere conjecture. 

So, if you are relying on Tabatabai, I'd like to see how he justifies those views, using the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

And if you're going to present narrations, please provide their isnad, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
3 hours ago, Cool said:

have they not journeyed about the earth so that they may get the hearts through which they reflect"

 

 

اَفَلَمۡ يَسِيۡرُوۡا فِى الۡاَرۡضِ فَتَكُوۡنَ لَهُمۡ قُلُوۡبٌ يَّعۡقِلُوۡنَ بِهَاۤ اَوۡ اٰذَانٌ يَّسۡمَعُوۡنَ بِهَا‌ ۚ فَاِنَّهَا لَا تَعۡمَى الۡاَبۡصَارُ وَلٰـكِنۡ تَعۡمَى الۡـقُلُوۡبُ الَّتِىۡ فِى الصُّدُوۡرِ

22:46

 If anything, this verse clearly points to the heart in the chests, the physical hearts. 

There are weak narrations that put Aql inside the heart, qalb. 

We use our Aql through our hearts. In other words, Aql functions through the heart, the heart in our chests. 

IF your heart isn't healthy, neither is your Aql. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

We use our Aql through our hearts. In other words, Aql functions through the heart, the heart in our chests. 

Brother!

يعقلون as well as يسمعون are the attributes of nafs. It is the nafs who listens by means of ears, it is the nafs which reflects. 

Isn't it the nafs which finds rest (in different situations) in the remembrance of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ?

الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَتَطْمَئِنُّ قُلُوبُهُم بِذِكْرِ اللّهِ أَلاَ بِذِكْرِ اللّهِ تَطْمَئِنُّ الْقُلُوبُ

And there is another verse which mentions this "rest" for nafs too:

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
57 minutes ago, Cool said:

يعقلون as well as يسمعون are the attributes of nafs. It is the nafs who listens by means of ears, it is the nafs which reflects. 

First of all, we still do not know what nafs is. Is it consciousness? 

Second, how does nafs listen or use aql? Via ears? Are you conflating nafs with the brain? 

Check all the verses in the Qur'an regarding Qalb. It is the Qalb that reflects. It is the Qalb that reasons. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Isn't it the nafs which finds rest

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

 

الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَتَطْمَئِنُّ قُلُوبُهُم بِذِكْرِ اللّهِ أَلاَ بِذِكْرِ اللّهِ تَطْمَئِنُّ الْقُلُوبُ

 

Did you read this verse before you posted it??

بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ

اَلَّذِيۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا وَتَطۡمَٮِٕنُّ قُلُوۡبُهُمۡ بِذِكۡرِ اللّٰهِ‌ ؕ اَلَا بِذِكۡرِ اللّٰهِ تَطۡمَٮِٕنُّ الۡقُلُوۡبُ

-----Word by Word-----

ٱلَّذِينَ : Those who
ءَامَنُوا۟ : believed
وَتَطْمَئِنُّ : and find satisfaction
قُلُوبُهُم : their hearts
بِذِكْرِ : in the remembrance
ٱللَّهِۗ : (of) Allah.
أَلَا : No doubt,
بِذِكْرِ : in the remembrance
ٱللَّهِ : (of) Allah
تَطْمَئِنُّ : find satisfaction
ٱلْقُلُوبُ : the hearts."

-----Syed Abul Ala Maududi-----

Such are the ones who believe (in the message of the Prophet) and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allah. Surely in Allah's remembrance do hearts find rest.

-----Safi-ur-Rehman Mubarakpuri-----

Those who believed and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allah. Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest.

-----Muhammad Pickthall-----

Who have believed and whose hearts have rest in the remembrance of Allah. Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest!

-----Saheeh International-----

Those who have believed and whose hearts are assured by the remembrance of Allah. Unquestionably, by the remembrance of Allah hearts are assured."

-----Muhammad Shakir-----

Those who believe and whose hearts are set at rest by the remembrance of Allah; now surely by Allah's remembrance are the hearts set at rest.

-----Abdul Majid Daryabadi-----

They are those who believe and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allah. Lo! in the remembrance of Allah hearts do find rest.

Al-Quran - Surah 13 - Ar-Ra'd - Ayah 28

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
58 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

First of all, we still do not know what nafs is.

You don't know. For me, it is quite clear who am I.

59 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Second, how does nafs listen or use aql? Via ears? Are you conflating nafs with the brain? 

Yes, nafs listens as well as reflect. Nafs is not the human brain which just process the sound and images. The one which "see" and which "hear" is the nafs not the brain. Brain neither see nor it hear.

Nafs uses the "hawas e khamsa" as well as it has it has its own vision & hearing which are not material. Yesterday, I saw my late father in my dream. Although my material eyes were closed and my ears too, but I saw my father and perfectly heard him what he was saying to me. 

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Check all the verses in the Qur'an regarding Qalb. It is the Qalb that reflects. It is the Qalb that reasons.

وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ فِي نَفْسِكَ تَضَرُّعاً وَخِيفَةً

7:205

إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَقَدَّرَ

74:18

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did you read this verse before you posted it??

Yes I did. The difference is that you are taking the literal meaning and I am talking about the thing which actually enjoys the "rest" by tasting it, by feeling it. It is nothing other than the nafs which becomes "mutma'in" by remembering the God and with the zikr of God.

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

ٱلَّذِينَ : Those who
ءَامَنُوا۟ : believed
وَتَطْمَئِنُّ : and find satisfaction
قُلُوبُهُم : their hearts
بِذِكْرِ : in the remembrance
ٱللَّهِۗ : (of) Allah.
أَلَا : No doubt,
بِذِكْرِ : in the remembrance
ٱللَّهِ : (of) Allah
تَطْمَئِنُّ : find satisfaction
ٱلْقُلُوبُ : the hearts."

Here too, heart is nafs & nothing else. Blindness of heart means blindness of nafs. Deafness of heart means deafness of nafs. 

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

فَاِنَّهَا لَا تَعۡمَى الۡاَبۡصَارُ وَلٰـكِنۡ تَعۡمَى الۡـقُلُوۡبُ الَّتِىۡ فِى الصُّدُوۡرِ

Blind are the hearts which are concealed in the chests. Your nafs is concealed within your body. Neither chest here means the physical chest of yours nor heart here means your physical heart. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

But what is Nafs? We need to answer this question first? 

Nafs is "me". The one using this physical body to type letters. The "me" which is understanding what you're saying and reflecting on your questions and responding you. "Me" who hears and see with and without these physical ears and eyes.

If we don't know our nafs or it is impossible to recognize what the nafs is! Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would not have said "من عرف نفسه فقد عرف ربه".

 

Edited by Cool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, Cool said:

You don't know. For me, it is quite clear who am I.

The question is not who you are. It's what you are. And no that's not clear. It's not clear what nafs is.

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Brain neither see nor it hear.

According to modern science, that's exactly what brain does. It's the brain that sees and hears and smells, not the eyes or the ears or the nose. Eyes, ears, and nose are mere receptors. They receive the signals, deliver it to the brain, the brain deciphers the signals, and send a response back to the receptors. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Nafs uses the "hawas e khamsa" as well as it has it has its own vision & hearing which are not material.

Why do you think this? Have you learned this from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? Is this what they have taught about nafs? If so, show me where please. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:
2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ فِي نَفْسِكَ تَضَرُّعاً وَخِيفَةً

7:205

في نفسک

What is this nafs that we're told to remember our Lord IN it?

1 hour ago, Cool said:

 

إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَقَدَّرَ

74:18

Why do you think this is related to nafs?

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Yes I did. The difference is that you are taking the literal meaning and I am talking about the thing which actually enjoys the "rest" by tasting it, by feeling it. It is nothing other than the nafs which becomes "mutma'in" by remembering the God and with the zikr of God.

heart is nafs & nothing else. Blindness of heart means blindness of nafs. Deafness of heart means deafness of nafs. 

Neither chest here means the physical chest of yours nor heart here means your physical heart. 

I will continue to take the literal meaning until I see and learn that the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have taught or permitted the non-literal meaning for it. 

These views that you hold, I ask again, have they been taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? If so, show those narrations please, with their isnad. 

It's simple really: if the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) haven't taught them, then your views are not the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Nafs is "me".

Do you travel outside of your body, when you're sleeping? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

According to modern science, that's exactly what brain does. It's the brain that sees and hears and smells, not the eyes or the ears or the nose. Eyes, ears, and nose are mere receptors. They receive the signals, deliver it to the brain, the brain deciphers the signals, and send a response back to the receptors

Let me sharr what modern science tells.

The ear is made up of three parts – the outer, middle and inner ear. Sound waves enter the outer ear and are funneled through the middle ear to the inner ear, where vibrations stimulate tiny hair cells in the cochlea. These hair cells transmit the electrical impulses generated as a result of this movement to the brain via the auditory nerve, where they are translated into sounds we can identify. The brain is able to discriminate relevant sounds from background noise, filtering out unimportant and distracting sounds so we can concentrate on what we are listening to. The brain also amplifies the volume of our own speech, boosting the sounds we make to enable us to hear our own voices clearly.

"We" are not just our brains. Brain cannot identify, neither it can concentrate, nor it can reason. 

7 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

What is this nafs that we're told to remember our Lord IN it?

وذكر في نفسك could also mean وذكر في قلبك. See how these two things interchange. You can obey this command by remembering Him in your heart.

10 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Why do you think this is related to nafs?

The verse is mentioning the nafs of a disbeliever, a blind & deaf nafs. Who got killed (means will face the consequences) due to his blindness & deafness of soul. 

15 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

These views that you hold, I ask again, have they been taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? If so, show those narrations please, with their isnad. 

I will get back to this one and on wards after a while.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, Cool said:

We" are not just our brains. Brain cannot identify, neither it can concentrate, nor it can reason. 

The brain translates waves and impulses into sounds that we hear. In other words, what we hear is mediated by the brain. 

I agree with you that we are not our brains. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

وذكر في نفسك could also mean وذكر في قلبك. See how these two things interchange. You can obey this command by remembering Him in your heart

You're making a big claim here, namely that, Qalb and Nafs are interchangeable. 

I'll ask you what I've asked you before, is this what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) teach? If so, please show acceptable narrations from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) that teach nafs=Qalb. 

If there aren't any narrations that support your claim, then this is not what the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) teach. This is a mere conjecture, either manufactured by you or someone else you follow. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

The verse is mentioning the nafs of a disbeliever, a blind & deaf nafs. Who got killed (means will face the consequences) due to his blindness & deafness of soul. 

Which verse? Point me to how it's connected to Nafs.

1 hour ago, Cool said:

I will get back to this one and on wards after a while.

Great. Thanks. 

Ultimately, if something is not taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and is not found in their authenticated narrations, then it is not the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

These views that you hold, I ask again, have they been taught by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? If so, show those narrations please, with their isnad. 

I am holding the rational views. I haven't seen any narration which specifically defines the nafs. 

The only narration I remember is the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) where he said "من عرف نفسه فقد عرف ربه"

Nafs has been used in several meanings in Arabic language. It can mean the blood flowing in your veins, it can mean the "wujood" (كَتَبَ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ الرَّحْمَةَ) etc. 

The reason why Imams have not defined it is perhaps that it is a thing which is self evident. 

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

It's simple really: if the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) haven't taught them, then your views are not the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

Again, ma'refat e nafs has been mentioned in many ahadith. Strange is that if we question what is nafs. Apply all the meanings in which nafs is used in Arabic language to know what the nafs actually is. So lets take the meaning "wujood" (self). We have two dimensional wujood a) physical b) spiritual. 

God takes our souls during our sleep. Does He takes our physical wujood? No

God takes our souls at the time of death. Does He takes our physical wujood? No

So what could be the nafs means if not the physical wujood? Spiritual wujood. So the heart, eyes, hearing etc God is talking about in Quran must be spiritual or related to our spiritual wujood. 

Our physical heart doesn't have eyes or ears. Or do you think your physical heart has eyes & ears? 

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Do you travel outside of your body, when you're sleeping? 

As I said earlier, I possess two dimensions. So the answer of your question is yes & no at the same time. Yes if I consider my spiritual wujood, No if I consider my physical wujood. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Which verse? Point me to how it's connected to Nafs.

:bismillah:

ذَرْنِي وَمَنْ خَلَقْتُ وَحِيدًا

وَجَعَلْتُ لَهُ مَالًا مَمْدُودًا

وَبَنِينَ شُهُودًا

وَمَهَّدْتُ لَهُ تَمْهِيدًا

ثُمَّ يَطْمَعُ أَنْ أَزِيدَ

 

كَلَّا ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ لِآيَاتِنَا عَنِيدًا

سَأُرْهِقُهُ صَعُودًا

إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَقَدَّرَ

فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ

ثُمَّ قُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ

ثُمَّ نَظَرَ

ثُمَّ عَبَسَ وَبَسَرَ

ثُمَّ أَدْبَرَ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ

فَقَالَ إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ

إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ

(74:10-25)

According to the books of tafseer, these verses were revealed for Walid bin Mughaira, a disbeliever. His very being (wujood or nafs) is addressed here, blindness & deafness of his soul has been mentioned as he is unable to recognize the kalam of Allah. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...