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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Nafs (نفس) = The Spirit (روح)?

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Posted (edited)

سلام

The bolded part of the following narration implies that Ruh is Nafs or Nafs is Ruh. This is a part of a longer narration.

Is there a way to read the bolded part below for it to NOT imply that the Ruh is same as the Nafs?

وَ رَوَى أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ اَلْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : فِي قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ «تَتَجٰافىٰ جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ اَلْمَضٰاجِعِ » فَقَالَ «لَعَلَّكَ تَرَى أَنَّ اَلْقَوْمَ لَمْ يَكُونُوا يَنَامُونَ» فَقُلْتُ اَللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ فَقَالَ «لاَ بُدَّ لِهَذَا اَلْبَدَنِ أَنْ تُرِيحَهُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ نَفْسُهُ فَإِذَا خَرَجَ اَلنَّفْسُ اِسْتَرَاحَ اَلْبَدَنُ وَ رَجَعَتِ اَلرُّوحُ فِيهِ وَ فِيهِ قُوَّةٌ عَلَى اَلْعَمَلِ فَإِنَّمَا ذَكَرَهُمْ فَقَالَ: «تَتَجٰافىٰ جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ اَلْمَضٰاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ

خَوْفاً وَ طَمَعاً»...

Thanks

 

 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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I guess one way to read and understand it is that they can move in and out together, but they're not one and the same as each other. 

They both leave the body together during sleep, and they both re-enter the body together, when/if the person wakes up.

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Ruh cannot be nafs.

There are four types of Ruh inside believers: Ruh of faith, Ruh of power, Ruh of Lust, and Ruh of the body. 

According to narrations, Ruh of Faith/ایمان leaves the body, when a believer is in the middle of committing a sin. This Ruh will return after the completion of the sin, and after the believer has asked for forgiveness.

This being the case, we can tell at least Ruh of Faith is definitely not the same as Nafs. 

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Salam,

Ruh (spirit) is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to make the body alive.  If it leaves the body, we die.  We know nothing about the Ruh.  It is something from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Nafs (souls) is almost similar to ruh but with free wills.  Nafs is the essense of a human.  It can leave the body when we sleep.  The function of Nafs is to make decision on how to use the body in the physical world.

Whether nafs do sins / good, Ruh will still stay in the body so the physical parts of the body will function accordingly.  Nafs can absorded Light / Darkness.  All physical faculties of the body are attached to the Nafs.  If the sexual urge comes from the body (which is nature of physical body), the nafs must find ways to relieve it.  Otherwise the nafs will get constant signal from sexual part of the body.  The signal can overload the nafs.

If a person knows how to control his nafs and make the nafs absorbed by the Light (because Light has power), then the Nafs can make better decision.  Nafs can be incited by other faculties such seeing, hearing, smell, logics and intelligent.  Our Nafs can be influenced by media, friends, .... outside the body that enter through seeing, hearing, smell, logics and intelligent (brain functions...we call psychology / cognitive).

The heart is a faculty for the Nafs to interface with "unseen" realms  (no space or time attached to it).  Nafs can get help from unseen realms.  Example, through worship or doas or interface directly with those who are ALIVE.  Nafs can in be touch with syaitan and jinn too (when failure to protect the heart).  So we much protect the Nafs by relying on the Light.

 

This is my understanding and correct me if I am wrong.

Wallahualam.

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39 minutes ago, layman said:

If it leaves the body, we die. 

There are at least five different types of Ruh. Ruh al-Quds is only from the prophets and the Imams. Ruh of Faith is only for believers. 

So, we need to qualify your statement. If all of the Ruhs inside of us leave, then we die. However, we know for a fact, that Ruh al-iman leaves, when the believers sin, and they don't drop dead. 

May be if the Ruh of the Body (روح البدن) leaves, then we die. 

43 minutes ago, layman said:

The function of Nafs is to make decision on how to use the body in the physical world.

Is Nafs our consciousness?

43 minutes ago, layman said:

Whether nafs do sins / good, Ruh will still stay in the body so the physical parts of the body will function accordingly. 

روح الایمان leaves the body of the believers when they are sinning. 

44 minutes ago, layman said:

If the sexual urge comes from the body

It is likely that sexual urge may emerge or may be cause by Ruh of Lust (روح الشهوة), which is a type of Ruh in all people. 

46 minutes ago, layman said:

Nafs can be incited by other faculties such seeing, hearing, smell, logics and intelligent. 

Your view of Nafs makes it seem like it is the same as our Consciousness. 

47 minutes ago, layman said:

The heart is a faculty for the Nafs to interface with "unseen" realms  

We know according to narrations that Ruh and Aql reside in the heart. We have no narration stating that the Nafs is in the heart. 

48 minutes ago, layman said:

This is my understanding and correct me if I am wrong.

In my opinion, there's a gradient of things existing. Ruh inside our heart is if a very subtle nature. Nafs, whatever it is, is less subtle than Ruh, but certainly more subtle than our physical bodies. 

In my opinion, The Heart functions as a transcriber of Ruh's light. Our Nafs reads and performs whatever the heart transcribes. And it is our hearts that is influenced by our deeds. The more closely we follow the Shari'a, the more accurately will the light from the Ruh be transcribed for the Nafs; the more influence will the Ruh have on us. 

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Muhaqqiq Narāqī in his famous book of ethics, Jamiʿ al-Saʿādāt states, “The soul (nafs) is that heavenly essence which employs the body and uses its various organs to attain its goals and purposes. The soul has also other names as spirit (ruh), intelligence (`aql), and heart (qalb) although these terms have other usages as well.”

Shahīd Muṭahharī indicates that these terms are used distinctly in ʿIrfān based on the qualities of the soul: “The 'urafa' have different words for the human soul; sometimes they call it nafs (self), sometimes qalb (heart), sometimes ruh (spirit) and sometimes sirr (mystery). When the human soul is dominated and ruled by desires and passions they call it nafs. When it reaches the stage of bearing Divine knowledge, it is called qalb. When the light of Divine love dawns within it, they call it ruh.”

From the link...

https://www.al-islam.org/jami-al-saadat-the-collector-of-felicities-muhammad-mahdi-ibn-abi-dharr-al-naraqi/meaning-and-origin#faculties-soul-their-effects-and-characteristics

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Salam

Context changes the meaning. The Ruh spoken about sometimes in ahadith and Quran is about the holy spirit or the spirit from God or his breathe but this the light of the Imam and it's about the spirit of his command/authority on earth and heavens.

Other times like the ahadith you quoted, it can refer to something more general like the spirit of lust/appetite, or for example in  Sahifa sajjadiya "arwhal (plural of ruh) of haya (of life)". In this case, it refers to have spirit that is of life and enjoys life.

The word can be synonymous with nafs like the first hadith you quoted in OP, but other times it has understanding that it refers to the spirit of God's command which his seat and his holy name - the light of the Imam of our time, the word spoken from God.

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28 minutes ago, layman said:

Muhaqqiq Narāqī in his famous book of ethics, Jamiʿ al-Saʿādāt states, “The soul (nafs) is that heavenly essence which employs the body and uses its various organs to attain its goals and purposes. The soul has also other names as spirit (ruh), intelligence (`aql), and heart (qalb) although these terms have other usages as well.”

I hate to be bold, but this is very inaccurate at best, and totally false at worst. And there are numerous narrations on these issues. Aql and ruh are located in qalb, and qalb is definitely not the nafs. 

Based on all the narrations that I've read, I have absolutely no idea why this scholar would make such a false and inaccurate generalization. 

Has he at all, or at least, justified his position via acceptable narrations? 

33 minutes ago, layman said:

“The 'urafa' have different words for the human soul; sometimes they call it nafs (self), sometimes qalb (heart),

Like above, this statement has no validity, if we read and follow the acceptable narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

35 minutes ago, layman said:

When the human soul is dominated and ruled by desires and passions they call it nafs. When it reaches the stage of bearing Divine knowledge, it is called qalb. When the light of Divine love dawns within it, they call it ruh.”

This is totally baseless. Are there any acceptable narration that supports this statement? 

At best, these statements are mere conjectures of the "Urafa", based on their research outside and beyond the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

 

At this point, I welcome any acceptable narration that would support any of these above statements. 

 

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4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

There are four types of Ruh inside believers:

Are you sure that all the four types are "inside" us? 

Lets take the example of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said this:

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُواْ لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ

15:29

So here Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) breathed into him all four types of ارواح ? I have used the word "Arwah" deliberately to show you if that would be the case, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would have used plural word of Ruh. 

Perhaps there is one ruh in us which is life giving. Rest of three resides "with" believers instead of inside.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Are you sure that all the four types are "inside" us? 

Here's a saheeh narration:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ اَلْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ عُمَرَ اَلْيَمَانِيِّ عَنْ جَابِرٍ اَلْجُعْفِيِّ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : يَا جَابِرُ إِنَّ اَللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى خَلَقَ اَلْخَلْقَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَصْنَافٍ وَ هُوَ قَوْلُ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ كُنْتُمْ أَزْوٰاجاً ثَلاٰثَةً `فَأَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ مٰا أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ `وَ أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَشْئَمَةِ مٰا أَصْحٰابُ اَلْمَشْئَمَةِ `وَ اَلسّٰابِقُونَ اَلسّٰابِقُونَ `أُولٰئِكَ اَلْمُقَرَّبُونَ » فَالسَّابِقُونَ هُمْ رُسُلُ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمُ اَلسَّلاَمُ وَ خَاصَّةُ اَللَّهِ مِنْ خَلْقِهِ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ خَمْسَةَ أَرْوَاحٍ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُدُسِ فَبِهِ عَرَفُوا اَلْأَشْيَاءَ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَبِهِ خَافُوا اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُوَّةِ فَبِهِ قَدَرُوا عَلَى طَاعَةِ اَللَّهِ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلشَّهْوَةِ فَبِهِ اِشْتَهَوْا طَاعَةَ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ كَرِهُوا مَعْصِيَتَهُ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ اَلَّذِي بِهِ يَذْهَبُ اَلنَّاسُ وَ يَجِيئُونَ وَ جَعَلَ فِي اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ أَصْحَابِ اَلْمَيْمَنَةِ رُوحَ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَبِهِ خَافُوا اَللَّهَ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْقُوَّةِ فَبِهِ قَدَرُوا عَلَى طَاعَةِ اَللَّهِ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلشَّهْوَةِ فَبِهِ اِشْتَهَوْا طَاعَةَ اَللَّهِ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ اَلَّذِي بِهِ يَذْهَبُ اَلنَّاسُ وَ يَجِيئُونَ

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3 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

Salam

Qalb has different meaning in different context. 

Why is this the case? 

Based on the numerous narrations that I've read, this isn't and shouldn't be the case. Qalb is always that which is inside the chest (صدر). 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ خَمْسَةَ أَرْوَاحٍ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُدُسِ فَبِهِ عَرَفُوا اَلْأَشْيَاءَ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْإِيمَانِ فَبِهِ خَافُوا اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلْقُوَّةِ فَبِهِ قَدَرُوا عَلَى طَاعَةِ اَللَّهِ وَ أَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحِ اَلشَّهْوَةِ فَبِهِ اِشْتَهَوْا طَاعَةَ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ كَرِهُوا مَعْصِيَتَهُ وَ جَعَلَ فِيهِمْ رُوحَ اَلْمَدْرَجِ اَلَّذِي بِهِ يَذْهَبُ اَلنَّاسُ وَ يَجِيئُونَ

There is no mention of the ruh which gives someone life. 

The one which is breathed into the Adam (عليه السلام). 

The above five types are just mentioning the ones by which things are recognized, presence of Allah (or His fear) is realized, obedience is maintained, disobedience is repelled etc... 

Edited by Cool
Correction
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On 6/4/2021 at 6:58 AM, Cool said:

There is no mention of the ruh which gives someone life. 

The one which is breathed into the Adam (عليه السلام). 

The above five types are just mentioning the ones by which things are recognized, presence of Allah (or His fear) is realized, obedience is maintained, disobedience is repelled etc... 

All Ruhs are inside of us, and they provide power and ability to do our actions. 

Here's a Hasan narration.

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اَلْحَجَّالِ عَنْ ثَعْلَبَةَ عَنْ حُمْرَانَ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ [عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ خ ل] عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ عَنْ قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ رُوحٌ مِنْهُ» قَالَ هِيَ رُوحُ اَللَّهِ مَخْلُوقَةٌ خَلَقَهَا اَللَّهُ فِي آدَمَ وَ عِيسَى . 

And here's another Saheeh narration. I'll only post a part of it.

 مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ جَمِيعاً عَنِ اِبْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ اِبْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَالَ: إِنَّ اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ إِذَا أَرَادَ أَنْ يَخْلُقَ اَلنُّطْفَةَ اَلَّتِي مِمَّا أَخَذَ عَلَيْهَا اَلْمِيثَاقَ فِي صُلْبِ آدَمَ أَوْ مَا يَبْدُو لَهُ فِيهِ وَ يَجْعَلَهَا فِي اَلرَّحِمِ حَرَّكَ اَلرَّجُلَ لِلْجِمَاعِ وَ أَوْحَى إِلَى اَلرَّحِمِ أَنِ اِفْتَحِي بَابَكِ حَتَّى يَلِجَ فِيكِ خَلْقِي وَ قَضَائِيَ اَلنَّافِذُ وَ قَدَرِي فَتَفْتَحُ اَلرَّحِمُ بَابَهَا فَتَصِلُ اَلنُّطْفَةُ إِلَى اَلرَّحِمِ فَتَرَدَّدُ فِيهِ أَرْبَعِينَ يَوْماً ثُمَّ تَصِيرُ عَلَقَةً أَرْبَعِينَ يَوْماً ثُمَّ تَصِيرُ مُضْغَةً أَرْبَعِينَ يَوْماً ثُمَّ تَصِيرُ لَحْماً تَجْرِي فِيهِ عُرُوقٌ مُشْتَبِكَةٌ ثُمَّ يَبْعَثُ اَللَّهُ مَلَكَيْنِ خَلاَّقَيْنِ يَخْلُقَانِ فِي اَلْأَرْحَامِ مَا يَشَاءُ اَللَّهُ فَيَقْتَحِمَانِ فِي بَطْنِ اَلْمَرْأَةِ مِنْ فَمِ اَلْمَرْأَةِ فَيَصِلاَنِ إِلَى اَلرَّحِمِ وَ فِيهَا اَلرُّوحُ اَلْقَدِيمَةُ اَلْمَنْقُولَةُ فِي أَصْلاَبِ اَلرِّجَالِ وَ أَرْحَامِ اَلنِّسَاءِ فَيَنْفُخَانِ فِيهَا رُوحَ اَلْحَيَاةِ وَ اَلْبَقَاءِ وَ يَشُقَّانِ لَهُ اَلسَّمْعَ وَ اَلْبَصَرَ وَ جَمِيعَ اَلْجَوَارِحِ وَ جَمِيعَ مَا فِي اَلْبَطْنِ بِإِذْنِ اَللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُوحِي اَللَّهُ إِلَى اَلْمَلَكَيْنِ اُكْتُبَا عَلَيْهِ قَضَائِي وَ قَدَرِي وَ نَافِذَ أَمْرِي وَ اِشْتَرِطَا لِيَ اَلْبَدَاءَ فِيمَا تَكْتُبَانِ...

During the creation of each human, there are initially three different spirits/Ruhs involved: 

The Old Spirit, the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of Survival. The latter two are blown into the child as it is being formed in the womb. 

So, there are certainly many "personal" spirits (arwah) involved, since the moment we are created until we die. And all of them operate from inside of us.

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Salam

An example, some places Quran praises who has a heart. Other times it condemns a corrupt heart. The former statement means, has a heart full of light and life, a real living organ that hears and sees and feels, while the other statement is from viewpoint he has a heart, but it's dead.

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19 minutes ago, Guest Raynor said:

Salam

An example, some places Quran praises who has a heart. Other times it condemns a corrupt heart. The former statement means, has a heart full of light and life, a real living organ that hears and sees and feels, while the other statement is from viewpoint he has a heart, but it's dead.

 

Present these verse here and we'll go over them. Thanks!

Here's an important point to remember: 

It is only in the past 3-4 centuries that the human heart has become to be seen as a mere mechanical pump. 

This was not the case prior to the modern age, and it certainly wasn't the case when the Qur'an was revealed. 

And I am speaking about the heart, the organ, in our chests. 

As you've probably noticed, the word "brain" isn't even used in the Qur'an. 

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Ruh is uncreated and cannot be destroyed, it is from Allah, 
nafs is creation of Allah.

Body is hardware, nafs is operating system and ruh (real you) is the user (witness). 
Body communicates with ruh through nafs.
Ruh witness/experience the illusory world through nafs. 
If at the time of death the nafs is dissolved/converted into nafs e mutmainnah you will be in jannah, otherwise again you will be in jahannum.

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@SoRoUsH

Salam 

Where the free wills (decision to do good or bad) come from... from the Spirit (Ruh) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) blow into the body or the Souls that places within the body?

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On 6/6/2021 at 2:06 PM, Shahrukh K said:

Ruh is uncreated and cannot be destroyed, it is from Allah, 
nafs is creation of Allah.

Body is hardware, nafs is operating system and ruh (real you) is the user (witness). 
Body communicates with ruh through nafs.
Ruh witness/experience the illusory world through nafs. 
If at the time of death the nafs is dissolved/converted into nafs e mutmainnah you will be in jannah, otherwise again you will be in jahannum.

My understanding...

1 Physical body...the car.  This car consists or made of complex living cells.  Purely physical and can only exist in physical world. The car will be used on a journey (as a lifetime of a person.

2. Ruh...ensure the car will function as a car (starting from the womb).  With the Ruh , the car has enough capabilities to run as intended (repair itself, sufficient energy to last as lifetime, has all the feedbacks and warning systems ...) .  Each car is different in term capabilities and capacities and the Ruh will ensure no deviation..  This car can grow, age and will stop functioning (die) after the Ruh leaves on the assigned date.  The Ruh will ensure the body (car) will not deviate as a car along as the car is on the journey..

3. Souls.  The driver that is assigned to a given car. There is a fixed journey  and desired destination with the lifetime of the car.  He has to drive the car to the right destination.  The driver were given natura power(fitrah) to distinguish between good or bad (can read the sign boards on the highway), but he still has to make decision because there are many events and things to see while driving the car. The driver can get distracted.  He has limited time to use the car and must reach the correct destination in given duration.  He must abuse his car. 

4.  The driver can use GPS if the driver wants to because it is attached to the car while on the journey to the destination.  GPS is the faculty that is called the heart.  It has built in AI system. But, first he has to use the car correctly and promise to focus on his journey and destination.  He must not get distracted.  The GPS  is a spiritual guidance (GPS) directly through Prophethood and Imamah because they are alive.  If the driver incapable of using GPS to the fullest, he can use faculty of physical intelligent (embedded in the car) and use maps instead.  He can find maps that are scattered all over in the libraries/houzeh/online library/aalims.  He just need to drive his car to those places that have maps.  Use it!  Nothing wrong with this approach. 

5.  If the souls /driver can take care of the car (not to abuse it) accordingly, and purify the heart throughly, he/the souls can see the GPS turns into an expert driver and drive for him, or advise him as a second driver while on the highway.  This happens when the souls has reached to purified stage.  Ruhul qudus will accompany him.  In the case of Isa (عليه السلام), the Ruhul Qudus made the car run, Isa (عليه السلام) as a baby can talk.  Miracles happened through this way.  The stick of Musa(عليه السلام) turned into giant Snake.  The hand of Ali (عليه السلام) lifted the door Khaibar.  Lallatul Qadr becomes 1000 months.

We become alive...because of Ruh.  The Ruh is blown in our physical body and it is intended for the body to become alive.  

However, we have little knowledge about Ruh...we rather not discuss it.  All we know Ruh is directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Whatever, I wrote are for understanding of Ruh and Souls.  Both are unseens.

Wallahualam 

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On 6/7/2021 at 5:19 AM, layman said:

Where the free wills (decision to do good or bad) come from... from the Spirit (Ruh) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) blow into the body or the Souls that places within the body?

Wa alaikum asSalaam

Ruh is the source of light and intellect. It can't make bad decisions. However, based on our deeds, the amount of light emanated from it could vary. 

It is our nafs, which is closely intertwined with the body, that makes the decisions. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 8:32 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Wa alaikum asSalaam

Ruh is the source of light and intellect. It can't make bad decisions. However, based on our deeds, the amount of light emanated from it could vary. 

It is our nafs, which is closely intertwined with the body, that makes the decisions. 

 

What is the real nature of the nafs...or i may call it the souls.

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1 hour ago, layman said:

What is the real nature of the nafs...or i may call it the souls.

I don't know; however, I'm inclined to think Nafs is Consciousness. And we don't really know the nature of our consciousness. 

I'm averse to calling nafs soul. "Soul" is such an ambiguous term that no one even knows where to begin thinking about it. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 5:19 AM, layman said:

@SoRoUsH

Salam 

Where the free wills (decision to do good or bad) come from... from the Spirit (Ruh) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) blow into the body or the Souls that places within the body?

وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا

فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا

91:7-8

It appears that according to Quran, Ruh is not the nafs.

These are two different yet interrelated things. Ruh is necessary component of body & soul. Soul itself needs ruh as well as body to exist. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 8:32 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Wa alaikum asSalaam

Ruh is the source of light and intellect. It can't make bad decisions. However, based on our deeds, the amount of light emanated from it could vary. 

It is our nafs, which is closely intertwined with the body, that makes the decisions. 

 

Can we agree that Ruh (Spirit) is Light.  This Light is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  It has knowledge, intellect, secrets, abilities, pure....  Ruh is totally obedience to the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and will never deviate.

Hazrat Isa(عليه السلام) is Ruhollah.  Totally controlled by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Abdullah and Habibullah.  Absolute obedience and closest to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all Rahmat flows through his Ruh.

 

7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I don't know; however, I'm inclined to think Nafs is Consciousness. And we don't really know the nature of our consciousness. 

I'm averse to calling nafs soul. "Soul" is such an ambiguous term that no one even knows where to begin thinking about it. 

Do you agreed with Shahid Mutahhari statement...

"Shahīd Muṭahharī indicates that these terms are used distinctly in ʿIrfān based on the qualities of the soul: “The 'urafa' have different words for the human soul; sometimes they call it nafs (self), sometimes qalb (heart), sometimes ruh (spirit) and sometimes sirr (mystery). "

It seems to me that you has called the real nature of our inner self as Sirr (mystery).  I have no problem with your understanding. Perfectly fine.  When it is a mystery, we can describe it as to our understanding.  I won't argue.

My understanding, the soul is more toward state of the inner part of human (unseen).  When it comes to this world, it starts at the state of nafs and has free wills.  And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives all souls the abilities to distinguish good and bad (conscious). Then the souls (has the crave to be with the Truth / Rabb) can upgrade using the Qalb (enter the gate of Barzakh, the gate to Ruh) and slowly surrendering his free wills to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  When the soul totally surrendered his free wills to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then the Soul turn into Ruh.  Or we say Ruh has taken over the soul (Allah's Will has replaced his free wills)   Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has totally control on his human existence.  That is the stage of Light Within Me.

i believe the soul is a state/quality of the inner part of human (where you can upgrade) based on the following verse 

وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا طَحَاهَا {6}

[Shakir 91:6] And the earth and Him Who extended it,

وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا {7}

[Shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,

فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا {8}

[Shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;

قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَنْ زَكَّاهَا {9}

[Shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it.

وَقَدْ خَابَ مَنْ دَسَّاهَا {10}

[Shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

 

So what is the nature of souls? We set our nature of our souls. Majority of us, our souls are nafs stage, and we live on our free wills. The more the Light is shining (because his soul give up his free to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) his soul slowly turns into Ruh (into Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Wills).  Prophets and Imams are at the stage of Ruh, alive and connected to us spiritually.  Rasulullah's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Ruh totally control his inner human part.  Isa (عليه السلام) is Ruhollah and still alive.

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2 hours ago, layman said:

Can we agree that Ruh (Spirit) is Light.

Not completely. 

First, there are different types of ruh. Are you saying all different types of ruh are light, implying different types of light? 

Second, there's a narration that mention God sent a ruh to the prophet and then made it into light to function as a guide. Therefore, ruh, itself, isn't light, but it can be made into light, if God wills. 

2 hours ago, layman said:

Ruh is totally obedience to the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and will never deviate.

This doesn't make sense, since Ruh is a power/ability/capacity of some sort. Ruh doesn't make decisions. It can't do bad not because it chooses to never do that but because it literally cannot do bad. 

2 hours ago, layman said:

Do you agreed with Shahid Mutahhari statement

 No.

Ruh, nafs, and qalb are three distinct things; not three different words for the same thing. 

2 hours ago, layman said:

When it is a mystery, we can describe it as to our understanding

Not quite. We must remain consistent and our understanding cannot transgress beyond the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). For example, to say that ruh, qalb, and nafs are the same thing, contradicts the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

2 hours ago, layman said:

 

وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا {7}

[Shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,

I don't think it's accurate to translate nafs as "soul." 

These verses would make just as much sense, if not more, if nafs was translated as "Consciousness."

2 hours ago, layman said:

Or we say Ruh has taken over the soul (Allah's Will has replaced his free wills)   Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has totally control on his human existence. 

This makes sense. 

Nafs doesn't turn into ruh, but the light of ruh would shine perfectly on nafs/consciousness, making it easy for the latter to distinguish truth from falsehood.

2 hours ago, layman said:

Prophets and Imams are at the stage of Ruh, alive and connected to us spiritually.  Rasulullah's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Ruh totally control his inner human part.  Isa (عليه السلام) is Ruhollah and still alive.

Right.

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24 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

if nafs was translated as "Consciousness

Isn’t the Nafs traditionally translated to “ego” or what we conceive as “the self” and Ruh translated to “consciousness” or “spirit” under the command of God? Is this backed by narrations? Thanks 

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32 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Ruh, nafs, and qalb are three distinct things; not three different words for the same thing. 

أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا أَوْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا فَإِنَّهَا لَا تَعْمَى الْأَبْصَارُ وَلَكِن تَعْمَى الْقُلُوبُ الَّتِي فِي الصُّدُورِ

22:46

Is this profound verse mentioning nafs as qalb? لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا

What is meant by "eyes of the heart"? Do hearts have eyes? 

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3 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Isn’t the Nafs traditionally translated to “ego” or what we conceive as “the self” and Ruh translated to “consciousness” or “spirit” under the command of God? Is this backed by narrations? Thanks 

Salam,

This is my understanding.  Bro, you may agree or disagree.  You can add.  I know you are spiritually inclined.

"Inna lillahi wa inna hi rajiuun".  We are in the journey.  From duality to Tawhid.

Nafs...Duality (we got separated from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), and some may term it as ego. Because it has separated and can make own choices.   Ruh is the stage of tawhid (we return to Him).

We are in the state of duality (Nafs) and in the journey toward Tawhid (the self is then controlled by Ruh).

 

Before we (the inner self) reaches to stage of Ruh, we have to enter the world of barzakh using the Qalb (the Heart) so we can witness the unseen (Heart have eyes that can see).  Then only we can elevate to higher stage (with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Permission).

1.  At first, we as human (at nafs or duality level), we want guidance and we turn to taqwa.

2.  Then we enter the unseen (use the qalb) through our belief.

3.  Then we establish prayer (clean our souls from closed type sins (fahshar) and opened type sins (mungkar).

4.  On the physical side, whatever we get from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we give out for goodness.

5.  We believe in whatever rules laid in Quran.

6.  And we return to  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Tawhid) while in this world.  (the self return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))..  Wa bil akhirah tu hom yukinoon.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) uses the word "Yaqiin".  Meaning we witness akhirah (the End journey)...and what we will see?  Allah, Muhammad and aali Muhammad...Totally LIGHT.  I put light, because cannot explain the situation.  When Rasul (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in mikraj, he reached that stage (Akhirah).

[Shakir 2:1] Alif Lam Mim.
[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Shakir 2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[Shakir 2:4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
[Shakir 2:5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

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15 minutes ago, layman said:

“Inna lillahi wa inna hi rajiuun".  We are in the journey.  From duality to Tawhid.

JazakAllah Khayr, what you have said makes sense. In this light, the phrase إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ does not necesarily have to apply at the time of death, perhaps through detachment from the ego and the realisation of the reality, one could travel from multiplicity to Divine Unity in the very now.

17 minutes ago, layman said:

And we return to  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Tawhid) while in this world.  (the self return to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))..  Wa bil akhirah tu hom yukinoon.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) uses the word "Yaqiin".  Meaning we witness akhirah (the End journey)...and what we will see?

What are your thoughts on the levels of certainty mentioned in the Qur’an?

I.e.

“ilm ul yaqeen” (knowledge of certainty)

”ayn ul yaqeen” (eye of certainty)

”haqq ul yaqeen” (truth of certainty)?

 

 

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:00 PM, SoRoUsH said:

First, there are different types of ruh. Are you saying all different types of ruh are light, implying different types of light? 

Second, there's a narration that mention God sent a ruh to the prophet and then made it into light to function as a guide. Therefore, ruh, itself, isn't light, but it can be made into light, if God wills. 

 

I don't know much about the nature of Ruh.  So no comment.  Light means directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

On 6/8/2021 at 10:00 PM, SoRoUsH said:

This doesn't make sense, since Ruh is a power/ability/capacity of some sort. Ruh doesn't make decisions. It can't do bad not because it chooses to never do that but because it literally cannot do bad. 

Ruh is something from Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Ruh acts according whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will.  

On 6/8/2021 at 10:00 PM, SoRoUsH said:

 No.

Ruh, nafs, and qalb are three distinct things; not three different words for the same thing. 

Not quite. We must remain consistent and our understanding cannot transgress beyond the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). For example, to say that ruh, qalb, and nafs are the same thing, contradicts the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

Three different stages / levels (not three distinct things).  The thing that is the same is our inner self (soul).  Our inner self can stay at the level of nafs (duality), Qalb (in between) and Ruh (Tawhid).  There exist many types of Ruh.  The real nature of Ruh (spirit), we have no much idea.  When Adam (عليه السلام) as a "Bashar" was to be made a representative on this earth, he was given a Ruh.  To that Ruh, Angels and Iblis must make submit (prostration).

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِنْ صَلْصَالٍ مِنْ حَمَإٍ مَسْنُونٍ {28}

[Shakir 15:28] And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ {29}

[Shakir 15:29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him

On 6/8/2021 at 10:00 PM, SoRoUsH said:

I don't think it's accurate to translate nafs as "soul." 

These verses would make just as much sense, if not more, if nafs was translated as "Consciousness."

This makes sense. 

Nafs doesn't turn into ruh, but the light of ruh would shine perfectly on nafs/consciousness, making it easy for the latter to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Right.

To make our conversation much better, I will use the term "inner self" instead of Soul.  You can use it as Consciousness.   But, we know it exists in the self.

I never say Nafs turns into Ruh.  Nafs is at the lowest level of inner self (and always attached to the body).  When the inner self submit to the Nafs, the Nafs will dominate the inner self.  But the moment the inner self use the Qalb correctly, the inner self can see the Light (likely to be Ruh)  and attracted to it (slow releases the grip to the nafs).  The Light will guide the inner self (purify it) and slowly the Nafs passes the control to the purified inner self.  The inner self can allow the Light to dominate him so whenever the inner self look, the Light will shine on the path (so the person will not fall).  The inner self can totally give up free wills and submit to the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and Ruh or many types of Ruh can rule his inner self (Concept of Tawhid).

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَشْرِي نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغَاءَ مَرْضَاتِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ رَءُوفٌ بِالْعِبَادِ {207}

[Shakir 2:207] And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is one example of a person who detached his inner self from the control of his nafs.  He is not ruled by his nafs but his inner self used the nafs for good purpose in worldly sense.  Otherwise, we cannot have Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

Wallahualam.

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On 6/8/2021 at 11:20 PM, 313_Waiter said:

JazakAllah Khayr, what you have said makes sense. In this light, the phrase إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ does not necesarily have to apply at the time of death, perhaps through detachment from the ego and the realisation of the reality, one could travel from multiplicity to Divine Unity in the very now.

What are your thoughts on the levels of certainty mentioned in the Qur’an?

I.e.

“ilm ul yaqeen” (knowledge of certainty)

”ayn ul yaqeen” (eye of certainty)

”haqq ul yaqeen” (truth of certainty)?

 

 

Salam Bro,  I believe you are more aware about this issue than myself.  Please educate me.

Level of certainty (all will happen through "the self and inner self " via physical eyes and inner eyes (the heart) ).  The inner self can witness certainty with his knowledge or belief (ilm ul yaqeen).  Or witness it with eyes (ayn ul yaqeen) because we know seeing is believing.  And beyond it (I guess melted in haqq and you will know what haqq is).

I am not into sufism or Irfan.  Don't have anything that qualified me to be into it.  Just curiosity, observations and some experiences that I don't understand.

Just to share my experience.  Disclaimer: this is my own experience and only for myself.  Cannot use it to influence others or as hujjah against other.  

Once, I had a dream (long after he passed away) and I saw Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) came and hugged me. While hugging, his body turned into Light.  

So, I have some knowledge and believe he is mutaqqi and guided leader (ilm ul yaqeen) based on personal experiences.  But, when I saw in a dream that his souls turned into Light, then I see the reality of what made the inner part of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) (ayn ul yaqeen), then I know the reality of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) and he is guided.  May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless his souls.  Salawats.  He has impacted the world and bringing spirit of Islam at the global level.  Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) was NOT A MAKSUM IMAM.  

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3 hours ago, layman said:

Salam Bro,  I believe you are more aware about this issue than myself.  Please educate me.

Level of certainty (all will happen through "the self and inner self " via physical eyes and inner eyes (the heart) ).  The inner self can witness certainty with his knowledge or belief (ilm ul yaqeen).  Or witness it with eyes (ayn ul yaqeen) because we know seeing is believing.  And beyond it (I guess melted in haqq and you will know what haqq is).

I am not into sufism or Irfan.  Don't have anything that qualified me to be into it.  Just curiosity, observations and some experiences that I don't understand.

Just to share my experience.  Disclaimer: this is my own experience and only for myself.  Cannot use it to influence others or as hujjah against other.  

Once, I had a dream (long after he passed away) and I saw Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) came and hugged me. While hugging, his body turned into Light.  

So, I have some knowledge and believe he is mutaqqi and guided leader (ilm ul yaqeen) based on personal experiences.  But, when I saw in a dream that his souls turned into Light, then I see the reality of what made the inner part of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) (ayn ul yaqeen), then I know the reality of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) and he is guided.  May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless his souls.  Salawats.  He has impacted the world and bringing spirit of Islam at the global level.  Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) was NOT A MAKSUM IMAM.  

 

Seeing a prominent scholar or scholar in dream is actually seeing imam Mahdi according to our interpretation  , so technically u seen imam Mahdi he was just still veiled from u so u seen him in a scholars form  , I guess the message was he was pleased with u for whatever u did or were doing at the time or might have been some dua u did to meet him or see him got answered 

 

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21 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

Seeing a prominent scholar or scholar in dream is actually seeing imam Mahdi according to our interpretation  , so technically u seen imam Mahdi he was just still veiled from u so u seen him in a scholars form  , I guess the message was he was pleased with u for whatever u did or were doing at the time or might have been some dua u did to meet him or see him got answered 

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive all of us, put all of us to the right path and hasten the return of our Beloved Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).  

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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Isn’t the Nafs traditionally translated to “ego” or what we conceive as “the self” and Ruh translated to “consciousness” or “spirit” under the command of God? Is this backed by narrations? Thanks 

Ruh should be translated as "spirit", definitely not "soul." 

"Ego", as we think and talk about it, isn't a good translation for nafs. Because, for example, we don't think of who as leaving the body when we are sleeping, but nafs does leave the body. So, I think, a better translation for nafs would be "consciousness."

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