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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydism, imamah and the layman


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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

But as a single narration this very much goes against occultation of anyone after the Prophet

You want to prove that this narration is against occultation but in contrast this narration about answering why good & bad people can't have infinit life  which your wrong interpretation can't deny occultation through this narration .:einstein:

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43 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You want to prove that this narration is against occultation but in contrast this narration about answering why good & bad people can't have infinit life  which your wrong interpretation can't deny occultation through this narration .:einstein:

I'm not sure I understand your point brother.

Can you please explain how you interpret this to mean infinite lives of good and bad people ?

 

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9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

long lifespan of prophet Khidr

 

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

for the sake of guidance - this is an important clause

Why do you think I said that was an important clause, I knew you were going to bring up Al'Khidr ((عليه السلام))

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On 6/15/2021 at 9:54 AM, Zaidism said:

For the non-arabic speakers, Imam Al-Ridha states that, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would have wanted to extend the life of one of his righteous servants, for the sake of guidance - this is an important clause - He would have done so for the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

An excellent response from Imam Al-Ridha (عليه السلام) when addressing those who believe in occult guides/Imams.

Salam you have denied occultation  based on your intrpretation  from this hadith which you belive while prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) didn't  live for long time , nobody  would have lived longer than him . By contrast I have mentioned  example of long life of prophet Khidr (عليه السلام) which his long life before prophet  (pbu) & being alive until time of reappearance  of Imam Mahdi (aj) which it's proved by prophet  (pbu) himself & rest of infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) which  he is partner of  Imam Mahdi (aj)  in his occultation & my laughing  is for your irony which you want to deny occultation from Imam Reza (عليه السلام) which you don't  belive  him in his infability which  in contrast with your denia  of occultation  , his narrations  is a source for proving occultation  which Imam (Reza (عليه السلام) himself has been proved occultation  of Imam Mahdi (aj) but you have used a narration  from him for denying  it.:einstein::einstein::einstein::book::book::book:

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

By contrast I have mentioned  example of long life of prophet Khidr

Imam Ridha ((عليه السلام)) who is our Imam, is clearly saying that if الله عز وجل wanted to lengthen someone’s life for the sake of guidance he would have done so for The Prophet صل الله عليه و على آله what part of the Khidr is not obligated to guide us do you not understand? 

 

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6 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Imam Ridha ((عليه السلام)) who is our Imam

From my understanding, you are Zaidi AND also believe in the imamate of Imam Rida (عليه السلام) ? Could you please tell us or at least send us a link where you show us all of your Imams ? Because we 12ers clearly believe in the famous 12 Imams, but for you Zaidis it gets very confusing. From what I know, you believe in the imamate of Ali, Hassan, Hussain, al-Sajjad, then Zayd, then his sons (maybe ?), but then you also claim that Ali al-Rida (عليه السلام) was an Imam ??? How are they connected ? I'm confused...

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

From my understanding, you are Zaidi AND also believe in the imamate of Imam Rida (عليه السلام) ? Could you please tell us or at least send us a link where you show us all of your Imams ? Because we 12ers clearly believe in the famous 12 Imams, but for you Zaidis it gets very confusing. From what I know, you believe in the imamate of Ali, Hassan, Hussain, al-Sajjad, then Zayd, then his sons (maybe ?), but then you also claim that Ali al-Rida (عليه السلام) was an Imam ??? How are they connected ? I'm confused...

Our concept of Imamate is simple, we don’t believe in this idea of Imams being designated after Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)). 

We believe Imamate is restricted to the sons of Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein, for example if there is a tyrant like Yazid and a person from Banu Hashim who fits the qualities of knowledge, courage, generosity, lineage, etc and is the best of his time to lead the uprising - this individual would call to himself and the people would give him Bay’ah he would become an Imam. 

Therefore, when you see me say Imam Khomeinī, I say that out of respect because he is a Sayyid from Husseini lineage who led an uprising against an unjust tyrant. We don’t exaggerate our concept of Imamate in the sense that they’re infallible, however, we do consider their consensus to be infallible. 

For example, the consensus to say حي على خير العمل in prayer, or the consensus that Mutah is absolutely forbidden and is Zina. If you would like to read about our Imams, their works, and outstanding refutations to the twelvers let me know and I can send you some stuff. Everything is in Arabic though, so if you only speak English I’ll see if I can send you some basic level material that’ll get the concept rolling for you Insha’Allah. 

اللهم صل على محمد وعلى آل محمد 

Edited by Zaidism
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Posted (edited)

So let me get this straight. According to what you're saying, an Imam is someone who meets the following criteria:

1- A descendant from either Imam Hassan or Imam Hussain (عليهما السلام).

2- He has knowledge, courage, and generosity (basically an overall good and just human being).

3- He calls the people to revolt against the unjust ruler of the time.

4- The people give him bay'ah.

If he meets these 4 points, then he's an Imam ?

 

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

So let me get this straight. According to what you're saying, an Imam is someone who meets the following criteria:

1- A descendant from either Imam Hassan or Imam Hussain (عليهما السلام).

2- He has knowledge, courage, and generosity (basically an overall good and just human being).

3- He calls the people to revolt against the unjust ruler of the time.

4- The people give him bay'ah.

If he meets these 4 points, then he's an Imam ?

 

2) yes but more clauses eg can't be a sinner, must be of sound mental physical health etc.  All clauses can be found within Qur'an regarding leadership.

3) Open call to follow even if there is no unjust ruler eg Imam Hadi was invited by the people of Yemen to lead.

4) is not a condition just a consequence of people recognising his qualities and following his call.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Sermon 91

When people decided to Swear allegiance(1)at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:

 

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

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2 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

2) yes but more clauses eg can't be a sinner

Can't be a sinner ? But you and @Zaidism have always said that you don't consider your Imam to be infallible.

3 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

3) Open call to follow even if there is no unjust ruler eg Imam Hadi was invited by the people of Yemen to lead.

So you do believe in the Imamate of Imam Hadi (عليه السلام) as well ? I'm getting more confused every time. The brother didn't answer previously my question where I asked him to name all the personnalities in history that Zaidis considered to be Imams. Apparently you consider Imam Rida, Imam Hadi, and might as well all of our 12er Imams to also be Zaidi Imams ? 

Besides, at the time of Imam Hadi (عليه السلام), the 'Abbasids were still in power, and all of them were unjust rulers.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Can't be a sinner ? But you and @Zaidism have always said that you don't consider your Imam to be infallible.

 

Not being a sinner and Infallibility are not exactly the same.

Eg no one would accuse hazart Abbas or Bibi Zaynab of commiting a sin.

Also take example of a marja if you found out your marja was a proven sinner would you really follow him in Taqleed.

But the possibility of major sin is still there except for those who are declared infallible by Allah eg Prophets and those of the cloak.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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11 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Can't be a sinner ?

i.e a Fasiq who commits major sins, or someone who is persistent in minor sins.

11 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

So you do believe in the Imamate of Imam Hadi

He is a blessed member of the progeny, as is Al-Jawad. However, not Imams for the aforementioned reasons.

Read this:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/Sublime Answers.pdf?ver=1613893403765

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Also when we say Imam Al-Hadi we mean

Al-Hadi ila'l-Haqq Yahya - Wikipedia

 

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Posted (edited)

Infact Imam Hadi is a great example of an Imam to use as his history is well known 

And he has translated books on fiqh and creed. 

A good place to start when looking into Zaidi.

https://zaidiportal.com/imam-hadi (biography)

https://zaidiportal.com/fundamentals-of-islam     (short treatise on fundamentals by Imam Hadi)

 

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/1. Zaidi Fiqh.pdf?ver=1613893403491

(Imam Hadi book on Fiqh rulings)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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And if you know Arabic click the link in my signature Al'Kadhim Al'Zaydi is the main reason as to why I left twelverism. He is devastating to say the least.

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  • 2 weeks later...

fyi

Quote

37-4 Muhammad ibn Musa ibn al-Mutawakkil - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Abul Husayn Muhammad ibn Ja’far al-Asadi quoted on the authority of Muhammad ibn Al-Husayn al-Sowli, on the authority of Yusif ibn Aqil, on the authority of Ishaq ibn Rahawayh,

“When Abul Hassan Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) was leaving Neishaboor to go to Al-Ma’mun, the scholars of traditions gathered around him and said, “O son of the Prophet of God ((عليه السلام).)! You are leaving us and you will not inform us of any traditions to benefit us?”

He was sitting in a carriage. Then he brought his head out and said, “I heard my father Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) say that his father Ja’far ibn Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) quoted on the authority of his father Muhammad ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Ali ibn Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Al-Husayn ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Ali ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of the Prophet (S) that he had heard Gabriel say that God the Honorable the Exalted said, 

“There is no god but God” is My Stronghold. Whoever enters My Stronghold is secure from My Punishment.”

When they moved on, he loudly said, “There are certain conditions for this. And I am one of these conditions.

The author of this book ((عليه السلام).heikh Sadooq) - may God forgive him - said, “One of the conditions of confessing to “there is no god but God” is confessing to the Trusteeship of Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) that has been established by God the Exalted the Honorable over the servants.

https://www.al-islam.org/uyun-akhbar-ar-ridha-volume-2-shaykh-saduq/chapter-37-what-ar-ridha-said-upon-leaving-marbaat

-----

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_Golden_Chain

Hadith al-Silsilah al-Dhahab (Arabic: حدیث سلسلة الذهب‎) (Hadith of the Golden Chain) is a hadith narrated from Ali al-Ridha, the eighth Imam of the Shia.[1

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