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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydism, imamah and the layman


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  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, islamicmusic said:

Bah bah. MashaAllah brother Zaidism. I pray for Yemenis all the time.

It is reported in hadith books that your flag (Ansarullah/Houthis) is the one calling people to the best of the truth.

While your resistance breaks the backs of wahhabis, it also will prevent ghulat/extremism of some shias.

May Allah grant you victory.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you Akhi, I am not a Yemeni, rather a former twelver (iraqi). May we all be on the path of the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt.

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56 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I never gave my opinion. I posted the verses and left it as that as they are clear enough. I don't need to add to them.

He is interpreting the verses based on Al-Qumi and others, that is why it is best to not entertain these types of discussions as they have made what is clear unclear by virtue of their Hadiths. It is best to take the avenue of showing them the contradictions of their narrative, respectively. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Guest ?!* said:

No but your intention was to prove fallibility of the prophets using them that's how you interpreted it as per your opinions. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says,

 

 

Yes my opinion is they are clear verses and go against your theory Prophets and Imams are free from all error. 

Clear verses are the standard to judge hadith by not the other way.

 

if you don't believe they are clear first you need explain what is linguistically unclear.

Second you (as an individual) need to be able to verify the hadith of tafseer for all of the verses. No blind following of scholars for verification as this is not a matter of fIqh.

So  I'm a non 12er let's start with the verse about Nabi Adam.

1) what's unclear linguistically

2) As for the  hadith please verify the chain and give the objective method of your verification.

I await your reply as I'm eager to learn.

 

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ ۖ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنْتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ {75}

[Shakir 38:75] He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
[Pickthal 38:75] He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
[Yusufali 38:75] (Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"

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Someday this musical chair arguments of words/phrases/verse/language will get so comical/or have gotten. That someone will challenge you to deny, hands and body and based on wording, he himself created him directly. actual physical interaction and work. "I" created- meaning actual work was done by god. 

or step up and call a spade a spade so you are not part of this. before you are questioned on your ticket to paradise salat, fasting....This will be a deal breaker. Traders are not allowed in heaven. 

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  • Moderators

Things have come up in this topic that I would like to mention.

  • Insults made against other members on this discussion board are not tolerated.

Asking someone if they are blind or stupid is inappropriate and any Mod who sees such an insult can give a warning. 

  •  It is against ShiaChat rules to copy and paste. So to the guest who copied and pasted a 10 page reply, it was not approved. If you cannot explain your points in a few sentences, don't copy/paste a pamphlet. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/12120-shiachatcom-rules-and-policy/?do=findComment&comment=3054933

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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

We believe appointment was particular and general, particular to The Prophet, Imam Ali/Hassan/Hussein, as per his نص afterwards, the Hafith of thaqalayn denotes following the sons of Fatema from the progeny of Hassan/Hussein.

You believe in the Appointment of Divine Representative, and announcement made by Muhammad al-Mustafa (Peace be upon him and his pure progeny). However, you only believe in as far as Ahlul-Kisa ( The people of the Hadith of the Cloak) are concerned. 

The Divine Imamate was restricted to Three. 

You also have a positive opinion of the First three administrators. 

So, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah ( The followers of Past four Fallible Jurists of Islamic Law ) and you don't have much difference. They All love and admire Everyone, the oppressor and the oppressed. Have very positive view, love and admiration for the Ahlul Kisa. So, they claim. 

In a nutshell, basically the same ideology. Even the infallibility is similar to the Ahlus Sunnah, partial with conditions and you guys  actively try to prove that. 

You don't have a divinely appointed Imam. You pass the fallible jurists of islamic law or political leaders as imams. Same with Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah. 

You might say, we believe in Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appointment. Yes, but what is the worth of this belief, in real sense. If you follow the same line of jurists/political leaders as your chosen imams. You choose like them. 

Imamate is a divine Trust till the end of time and  as per the Hadith of Thaqalayn the Two - meaning if one is error free the other is too, one till the end of time the other too. 

Looks like to a layman like me, it that the belief No one was appointed became an issue, as it should. So, you guys came up with the middle ground argument, ok divine appointment, but these three were ok too. But after that you continued as the majority group.

I am a layman, so correct me if any of the facts are wrong, my take is what it is based on the reality i see. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

You also have a positive opinion of the First three administrators. 

 

This is your assumption which is baseless, I will wait for you to properly ask me what our position is instead of concluding on your own.

2 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

So, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah ( The followers of Past four Fallible Jurists of Islamic Law ) and you don't have much difference. They All love and admire Everyone, the oppressor and the oppressed. Have very positive view, love and admiration for the Ahlul Kisa. So, they claim. 

More assumptions, I will not entertain this discussion anymore, because you're just pulling things from the air.

2 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

I am a layman, so correct me if any of the facts are wrong, my take is what it is based on the reality i see. 

Your entire post is a mess, I am sorry that you chose to take that route instead of first learning and studying our positions and then genuinely coming with critical and serious questions. 

I am baffled that you have the audacity to not only strawman our school from top to bottom, but to call them 'facts' is really going the extra mile.

Why don't you quote me a source from where you got your 'facts' from, I can confidently say to the point of it being a fact that you can't quote the name of a single Hadith book of ours, let alone support your delusions. In the future I recommend asking and then responding, this was very painful to read to say the least.

We're not Sunnis, so don't try using that approach on us and take heed to what Al-Sudooq says:

  الزيدية: وهي أشد الفرق علينا

كمال الدين وتمام النعمة - للشيخ الجليل الأقدم الصدوق - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٥٤ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 

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11 hours ago, Zaidism said:

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you Akhi, I am not a Yemeni, rather a former twelver (iraqi). May we all be on the path of the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt.

Amen.

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The same Quran that designated Ahlulbayt will designate the number of successors and clarify that. To say otherwise, is to make it missing essential guidance. 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

The same Quran that designated Ahlulbayt will designate the number of successors and clarify that. To say otherwise, is to make it missing essential guidance. 

I challenge any twelver to give me a designation that is from the tongue of the Holy Prophet that even remotely points to other then the first five of the cloak. It is a a clear general designation to any Hasanni/Husseini afterwards. You infer this unequivocally by virtue of Hadith Al-Kisa and Al-Thaqalayn when read together, there is no indication of 12 anywhere. You also see this consistency in the Quran, Musa/Harun particular designation, Banu israil general designation. 

And before anyone pulls up the 12 Caliph Hadith that everyone seems to be obsessed with it is notable to mention that 

• it comes in variants, such as there are 12 Caliphs and Abu Bakr is the first of them. 

• It was first used AFTER the occultation in the Ghaybah of Al’Numani

• it is a solitary report (and you can practically prove anthropomorphism with solitary reports if that’s really the route folks are wanting to take)

• And it is nowhere to be found in Zaydi works, so how are you going to use a solitary report from Sunnis (narrated by an Ummayad, so unreliable according to your rijaali standards against us, lol?) 

It’s a clear and simple request, Insha’Allah.  

Edited by Zaidism
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رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ ۚ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ {129}

[Pickthal 2:129] Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِنْكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمْ مَا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ {151}

[Pickthal 2:151] Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.

لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللَّهُ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ بَعَثَ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِنْ كَانُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ {164}

[Pickthal 3:164] Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them) they were in flagrant error.

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Above Job functions( Reciting the revelations, Teaching the Divine Book, Purifying and teaching Wisdom) , require Absolute Infallibility. ( Quran  Surah Najam 53:1-9) .

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إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

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This Guardianship requires absolute Infallibility. Or the god you believe in is asking you to follow people who commit sin, mistakes and errors as your Guardian. You can just blame god for that misguidance. 

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I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

The Mute Book and the Walking Talking Book are giving the same message. 

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The one appointed at Ghadir Khumm and after don't have a New Revelation so except for the Revelation( Reciting) part ALL functions stay the same, Purify them, teach the Book and Wisdom. 

The one who receives ALL Decrees/Amr is not you personally elected fallible Jurist of islamic law or political leader. 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

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Hadith of Lawḥ (the Tablet) of Fatima al-Zahra (a) (Arabic: حَدیث اللَّوح), is among the authentic narrations which is reported in various traditional sources. Its authenticity and the explicit mention of the names of true successors of the Prophet (s), has placed it among the significant evidences to prove Shi'a Imams' Imama and their rightful immediate successor-ship after the Prophet (s).

The well-known version of this hadith is narrated form the famous companion of the Prophet (s), Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari. The Lawh (Tablet) on which this Hadith is engraved, was descended from Heaven to the Prophet (s) as a gift for the birth of his second grandson, Imam al-Husayn (a). As a present, the Prophet (s) gave this Tablet to his daughter, Lady Fatima al-Zahra (a). The Hadith of Lawh, has been reported in different accounts, with slight differences in the phrasing and the length.

 

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Authenticity

The Hadith of Lawh is among the narrations that have been reported in authentic Shi'a sources. Also, there are contextual indications that affirm its authenticity and increase its value. Thiqat al-Islam al-Kulayni reports this hadith in al-Kafi through a trustworthy chain of transmission.[3] Additionally, other scholars have considered this Hadith authentic and reported it in their collections with the same chain of transmission or other chains. Al-Nu'mani in al-Ghayba;[4] al-Shaykh al-Saduq in 'Uyun akhbar al-Rida (a)[5] and Kamal al-Din;[6] al-Shaykh al-Mufid in al-Ikhtisas[7] and al-Shaykh al-Tusi in al-Ghayba[8] have reported this hadith. Also, in other sources like: al-IhtijajIrshad al-qulubTa'wil al-ayatTaqrib al-ma'arifFada'il of Fadl b. ShadhanManaqib of Ibn ShahrashubKashf al-ghummaal-Fusul al-mukhtaraal-Sirat al-mustaqim and al-Irshad of al-Shaykh al-Mufid, this hadith has been reported, partly or entirely, sometimes without mentioning its chain of transmission.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_al-Lawh

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بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِیمِ

هَذَا کتَابٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ الْعَزِیزِ الْحَکیمِ*- لِمُحَمَّدٍ نَبِیهِ وَ نُورِهِ وَ سَفِیرِهِ وَ حِجَابِهِ وَ دَلِیلِهِ نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِینُ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِینَ عَظِّمْ یا مُحَمَّدُ أَسْمَائِی وَ اشْکرْ نَعْمَائِی وَ لَا تَجْحَدْ آلَائِی إِنِّی أَنَا اللَّهُ لا إِلهَ إِلَّا أَنَا قَاصِمُ الْجَبَّارِینَ وَ مُدِیلُ الْمَظْلُومِینَ وَ دَیانُ الدِّینِ إِنِّی أَنَا اللَّهُ لا إِلهَ إِلَّا أَنَا فَمَنْ رَجَا غَیرَ فَضْلِی أَوْ خَافَ غَیرَ عَدْلِی عَذَّبْتُهُ عَذاباً لا أُعَذِّبُهُ أَحَداً مِنَ الْعالَمِینَ فَإِیای فَاعْبُدْ وَ عَلَی فَتَوَکلْ إِنِّی لَمْ أَبْعَثْ نَبِیاً فَأُکمِلَتْ أَیامُهُ وَ انْقَضَتْ مُدَّتُهُ إِلَّا جَعَلْتُ لَهُ وَصِیاً وَ إِنِّی فَضَّلْتُک عَلَی الْأَنْبِیاءِ وَ فَضَّلْتُ وَصِیک عَلَی الْأَوْصِیاءِ وَ أَکرَمْتُک بِشِبْلَیک وَ سِبْطَیک حَسَنٍ وَ حُسَینٍ فَجَعَلْتُ حَسَناً مَعْدِنَ عِلْمِی-بَعْدَ انْقِضَاءِ مُدَّةِ أَبِیهِ وَ جَعَلْتُ حُسَیناً خَازِنَ وَحْیی وَ أَکرَمْتُهُ بِالشَّهَادَةِ وَ خَتَمْتُ لَهُ بِالسَّعَادَةِ فَهُوَ أَفْضَلُ مَنِ اسْتُشْهِدَ وَ أَرْفَعُ الشُّهَدَاءِ دَرَجَةً جَعَلْتُ کلِمَتِی التَّامَّةَ مَعَهُ وَ حُجَّتِی الْبَالِغَةَ عِنْدَهُ بِعِتْرَتِهِ أُثِیبُ وَ أُعَاقِبُ أَوَّلُهُمْ عَلِی سَیدُ الْعَابِدِینَ وَ زَینُ أَوْلِیائِی الْمَاضِینَ وَ ابْنُهُ شِبْهُ جَدِّهِ الْمَحْمُودِ مُحَمَّدٌ الْبَاقِرُ عِلْمِی وَ الْمَعْدِنُ لِحِکمَتِی سَیهْلِک الْمُرْتَابُونَ فِی جَعْفَرٍ الرَّادُّ عَلَیهِ کالرَّادِّ عَلَی حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّی لَأُکرِمَنَّ مَثْوَی جَعْفَرٍ وَ لَأَسُرَّنَّهُ فِی أَشْیاعِهِ وَ أَنْصَارِهِ وَ أَوْلِیائِهِ أُتِیحَتْ بَعْدَهُ مُوسَی فِتْنَةٌ عَمْیاءُ حِنْدِسٌ- لِأَنَّ خَیطَ فَرْضِی لَا ینْقَطِعُ وَ حُجَّتِی لَا تَخْفَی وَ أَنَّ أَوْلِیائِی یسْقَوْنَ بِالْکأْسِ الْأَوْفَی مَنْ جَحَدَ وَاحِداً مِنْهُمْ فَقَدْ جَحَدَ نِعْمَتِی وَ مَنْ غَیرَ آیةً مِنْ کتَابِی فَقَدِ افْتَرَی عَلَی وَیلٌ لِلْمُفْتَرِینَ الْجَاحِدِینَ عِنْدَ انْقِضَاءِ مُدَّةِ مُوسَی عَبْدِی وَ حَبِیبِی وَ خِیرَتِی فِی عَلِی وَلِیی وَ نَاصِرِی وَ مَنْ أَضَعُ عَلَیهِ أَعْبَاءَ النُّبُوَّةِ وَ أَمْتَحِنُهُ بِالاضْطِلَاعِ بِهَا یقْتُلُهُ عِفْرِیتٌ مُسْتَکبِرٌ یدْفَنُ فِی الْمَدِینَةِ الَّتِی بَنَاهَا الْعَبْدُ الصَّالِحُ- إِلَی جَنْبِ شَرِّ خَلْقِی حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّی لَأَسُرَّنَّهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ ابْنِهِ وَ خَلِیفَتِهِ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ وَ وَارِثِ عِلْمِهِ فَهُوَ مَعْدِنُ عِلْمِی وَ مَوْضِعُ سِرِّی وَ حُجَّتِی عَلَی خَلْقِی لَا یؤْمِنُ عَبْدٌ بِهِ إِلَّا جَعَلْتُ الْجَنَّةَ مَثْوَاهُ وَ شَفَّعْتُهُ فِی سَبْعِینَ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَیتِهِ کلُّهُمْ قَدِ اسْتَوْجَبُوا النَّارَ وَ أَخْتِمُ بِالسَّعَادَةِ لِابْنِهِ عَلِی وَلِیی وَ نَاصِرِی وَ الشَّاهِدِ فِی خَلْقِی وَ أَمِینِی عَلَی وَحْیی أُخْرِجُ مِنْهُ الدَّاعِی إِلَی سَبِیلِی وَ الْخَازِنَ لِعِلْمِی الْحَسَنَ وَ أُکمِلُ ذَلِک بِابْنِهِ محمد رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِینَ عَلَیهِ کمَالُ مُوسَی وَ بَهَاءُ عِیسَی وَ صَبْرُ أَیوبَ فَیذَلُّ أَوْلِیائِی فِی زَمَانِهِ وَ تُتَهَادَی رُءُوسُهُمْ کمَا تُتَهَادَی رُءُوسُ التُّرْک وَ الدَّیلَمِ فَیقْتَلُونَ وَ یحْرَقُونَ وَ یکونُونَ خَائِفِینَ مَرْعُوبِینَ وَجِلِینَ تُصْبَغُ الْأَرْضُ بِدِمَائِهِمْ وَ یفْشُو الْوَیلُ وَ الرَّنَّةُ فِی نِسَائِهِمْ أُولَئِک أَوْلِیائِی حَقّاً بِهِمْ أَدْفَعُ کلَّ فِتْنَةٍ عَمْیاءَ حِنْدِسٍ وَ بِهِمْ أَکشِفُ الزَّلَازِلَ وَ أَدْفَعُ الْآصَارَ وَ الْأَغْلَالَ أُولئِک عَلَیهِمْ صَلَواتٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ وَ رَحْمَةٌ وَ أُولئِک هُمُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ.»

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/حدیث_لوح

 

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Reference:
Mutawātir hadith (Arabic: الحديث المتواتر) is a hadith which is reported numerously by different narrators and through various chains of transmission in a way that substantiates its authenticity. Mutawatir hadiths are considered opposite Khabar al-Wahid, i.e. non-Mutawatir hadiths are Wahid accounts.

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Kulayni, al-Kafi, vol.1 p.527

Kulayni, al-Kafi, vol.1 p.527

Nu’mani, al-Ghayba, p.62

Saduq, ‘Uyun akhbar al-Rida, vol.1 p.41

Saduq, Kamal al-din, vol.1 p.308

Mufid, Al-Ikhtisas, p.210

Tusi, Al-Ghayba, p.142

Majlisi, Bihar, vol.26

Kulayni, Muhammad b. Ya’qub -al. Al-Kafi . Tehran: Dar al-kutub al-islamiyya, 1407/1986
Nu’mani, Muhammad b. Ibrahim -al. Al-Ghayba. Tehran: Maktaba al-Saduq, 1397/1977
Saduq, Muhammad b. ‘Ali b. Babawayh -al. ‘Uyun akhbar al-Rida. Jahan, 1378/1999
Saduq, Muhammad b. ‘Ali b. Babawayh -al. Kamal al-din. Qom: Jami’a mudarrisin, 1405/1984
Mufid, Muhammad b. Muhammad -al. Al-Ikhtisas. Qom: Kungirah Shaykh Mufid, 1413/1992
Tusi, Muhammad b. al-Hasan -al. Al-Ghayba. Qom: Mu’assisa al-ma’arif al-islamiyya, 1411/1990
Majlisi, Muhammad Baqir -al. n.d. Bihar al-anwar li durar akhbar al-a’imma al-athar. Dar ihya’ al-turath al-‘arabi

http://the12thimam.com/2020/04/01/hadith-of-lawh-the-tablet-of-fatima-al-zahra-a/

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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

As I mentioned these are post-occultation period, not pre. Furthermore, you’re quoting your works not mine. 

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16 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ ۚ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ {129}

[Pickthal 2:129] Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِنْكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمْ مَا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ {151}

[Pickthal 2:151] Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.

لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللَّهُ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ بَعَثَ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِنْ كَانُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ {164}

[Pickthal 3:164] Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them) they were in flagrant error.

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Above Job functions( Reciting the revelations, Teaching the Divine Book, Purifying and teaching Wisdom) , require Absolute Infallibility. ( Quran  Surah Najam 53:1-9) .

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إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

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This Guardianship requires absolute Infallibility. Or the god you believe in is asking you to follow people who commit sin, mistakes and errors as your Guardian. You can just blame god for that misguidance. 

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I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

The Mute Book and the Walking Talking Book are giving the same message. 

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The one appointed at Ghadir Khumm and after don't have a New Revelation so except for the Revelation( Reciting) part ALL functions stay the same, Purify them, teach the Book and Wisdom. 

The one who receives ALL Decrees/Amr is not you personally elected fallible Jurist of islamic law or political leader. 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

I don’t get what point you’re trying to make here? We affirm the vicegerency of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) ahead of anyone, and we adhere to the two weighty things. I want your support for believing in 9 particular Imams after Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) - whom we revere and respect and consider them upon one minhaj as the Zaidiyyah, and we absolve them from your false attributions, as you do to the exaggerators (Mufawwadhah). 

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16 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

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Above Job functions( Reciting the revelations, Teaching the Divine Book, Purifying and teaching Wisdom) , require Absolute Infallibility.

( Quran  Surah Najam 53:1-9) .

Bold I agree with.

Absolute infallibility I don't. Quranic verses previously presented as evidence against this concept.

 

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57 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I don’t get what point you’re trying to make here? We affirm the vicegerency of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) ahead of anyone, and we adhere to the two weighty things. I want your support for believing in 9 particular Imams after Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) - whom we revere and respect and consider them upon one minhaj as the Zaidiyyah, and we absolve them from your false attributions, as you do to the exaggerators (Mufawwadhah). 

I have been and will ignore any Distractions, you are welcome to keep them coming.

Now you have noticed that I did not respond to your direct question(s), as they are secondary. Conceptual understanding is the basic/fundamental issue. It needs absolute clarification and understanding. Second, I am a layman, I do not have the ability to do hadith/chain/context warfare and it has been very ineffective. I use basic Qur'anic concepts, agreed upon Tradition/History and Intellect (Internal Imam) to judge to the best of my abilities and that is the most I could be answerable to. If my creator gave me an intellect lets say 10 and the highest is 100. I am judged based on 10 not 10>. So, i do my best not to lie to myself, unless i have a blind spot or something and that is the one of the  reason(s) for my posts, I get involve in all sorts of topics and post and wait for a constructive feedback, this way I can learn and improve. I have no fear, because the worst that could happen is that I learn something new or correct my previous understanding. 

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.
[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

&

مَا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِنْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا {40}

[Shakir 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
[Yusufali 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

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As mentioned in the previous posts the Job Function of the Messenger and his successor.  You realize that It does not reach the unjust and the Prophethood has been sealed( The Revelation), but Imamate continues, also look at the Hadith al Thaqalan. 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
[Yusufali 5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

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The Guardianship, affirmed by the Explicit Announcement at Ghadir Khumm ( Mawla?Master). 

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

The importance of the Job Function (5:67) and 3:33 and 3:61 The ones who went against the 'Truth" and the Truthful ones are Unjust. 

If you understood the Wali/Guardianship, your opinion of the ones who went against it? 

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(You still need to keep in mind , who we are referring to and this Guardianship of ALL affairs is theirs till the time their lord has ordained for it).  And the Job of Imam Al-Mahdi(عليه السلام), will he be a fallible or semi infallible jurist of islamic law or just political leader ( Keep in mind the Job Function- is Very Comprehensive as mentioned above). 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

 

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All the verses that mention twelve are about the twelve successors.

In 5th Chapter, it is an allusion to the covenant of ghadeer and compares it with the covenant bani-Israel, and saying similarly bani-Israel was given twelve Captains with their covenant of their founder Musa.  So this means similar to how Musa has twelve successors do did the covenant of ghadeer appoint Twelve Captains and this how God completed his religion and it's an allusion to that event by flow.

In 7th Chapter, it talks about believing in the light revealed with Mohammad (s), and connects that to Mohammad (s) messenger to whole world and to God belonging the authority of heavens and earth, and then emphasizes similarly from the people of Musa were a course/way who guided by the truth and then explains while they were one way, they were also from another perspective split into twelve ways.  The explanation of the twelve springs is that word tribtes is better translated as branches in Hebrew and this was a misunderstanding or tahreef regarding his twelve successors but similarly later on it's emphasized from who God's created is a way who guide by the truth and that is linked to his names and signs, and so we see again, an allusion is done to Twelve Successors of Mohammad (s) with twelve Successors of Musa (a).

In the 9th chapter, in discussing going to extreme in religion and exaggerating about Uzair and Jesus, it also talked about how scholars mess up religion that way and they often are corrupt and take people's money.  In flow to that, it says there are twelve luminaries - no less, no more, the day God created heavens and earth, four of them being sacred so to not be oppressive regarding them. The sacred four refers to those named Ali, that is because we can't exalt them to the level of God nor equate scholars with their chosen position, this is what makes their name sacred as the middle way where we don't violate it by equating them with God nor equating others with them. Then it talks about delay of one luminary is disbelief, disbelievers and polytheist seek only to do it to change the number made sacred by God (twelve) - they allow it for one generic (one founder like Mohammad (s) or Musa (a) or Ibrahim (a)) and disallow it for another generic, so this means, we have to see every Ahlulbayt had Twelve Successors to the founder.  What is translated as year and months there would be off topic to the flow, so it's better translated as explained.

In the 2nd chapter, we see the twelve rivers is linked to holding on to the RISQALLAH and not doing corruption in earth, once again, an allusion that the number twelve is sacred in Islam.

There is two other allusions, the Statues and large basins of Sulaiman were twelve, and they were allusions to the twelve lions with him, his predecessors including Musa and his successors including Isa. And the last, is how Yacoub (a) understood the dream of Yusuf (a) and when you include Sarah (a), the number is complete with respect to Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a).

And the hadiths in our sources alluded to this and are insights to the Quran.  We don't need to get into isnad since contextually by flow, this is what Quran is saying, and they are insights to Quran.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

In 5th Chapter, it is an allusion to the covenant of ghadeer and compares it with the covenant bani-Israel, and saying similarly bani-Israel was given twelve Captains with their covenant of their founder Musa.  So this means similar to how Musa has twelve successors do did the covenant of ghadeer appoint Twelve Captains and this how God completed his religion and it's an allusion to that event by flow.

This is an unorthodox exegetical approach that is reading the Quran in the lens of an already established presupposition, let us first reach the soundness of said presupposition. 

Furthermore, you would agree that it is pushing it to presume simply because the number 12 that comes up once in the Glorious Quran is somehow inadvertently referring to 12 Imams, while disregarding my clear indication that the theme of the Quran with the Prophet’s and their families, as well as the theme of Musa/Harun and Banu Israil is always (a) Particular designation and (b) general designation. 

You may ask, how this general designation of Imamate apply to the Hassanids and Husseinis - in which I will let my dear Imam Al-Ridha ((عليه السلام)) answer from your literature. 

 

أخبروني عن معنى هذه الآية: (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا) (1) فقالت العلماء: أراد الله عز وجل بذلك الأمة كلها فقال المأمون: ما تقول يا أبا الحسن؟ فقال الرضا عليه السلام: لا أقول كما ولكني أقول: أراد الله عز وجل بذلك العترة الطاهرة فقال المأمون: وكيف عنى العترة من دون الأمة؟ فقال له الرضا عليه السلام: انه لو أراد الأمة لكانت أجمعها في الجنة لقول الله عز وجل: (فمنهم ظالملنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير) 

Source: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1143_عيون-أخبار-الرضا-ع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-٢/الصفحة_206

I ask you if we go by your understanding of 12 Infallible Imams, how can that verse which Imam Al-Ridha ((عليه السلام)) mentions apply to them? Wherein we see it clearly mentioning that are those who are unjust to themselves. Therefore, it is clear the consistent narrative maintained by the Quran, traditions of the Prophet, and even through your own literature. 

All you need to do is exit this theoretical world that you are dwelling in and look at things through the lens of practicality, not particularity. What is clear takes precedence over what is ambiguous. 

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The Quran is light, the ahadith explain insights in there. As explained already, the same Quran that guides to Ahlulbayt will guide to the right Ahlulbayt and the proper number of successors.

It's not just an assumption about twelve, it's when reflected with context of the chapter and verses surrounding them, before and after, seen to be referring to the fact there are twelve.

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And by the way the verse you are quoting in 35th chapter about the chosen ones from God's servants, the "of them" refers to servants of God as is clear by the preceding verse which emphasizes "and God with respect to his servants is aware seeing".

It's not that there are oppressive people under Ahlulbayt, the argument Imam Reda (a) is making, if it as Sunni scholars were saying, that oppressive people are among them and the chosen refers to nation, it would be that they all promised paradise by flow (since t hem would not change in the following verse), which doesn't make sense, as there are oppressors per the verse among them.

Anyways, I don't see the relevance with the designation of Twelve Successors else where in Quran. Like I said, the same Quran that guides to Ahlulbayt will guide to the specific Ahlulbayt and number of successors. God suffices his servants.

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2 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

Quran that guides to Ahlulbayt will guide to the specific Ahlulbayt and number of successors. God suffices his servants.

The Qur'an doesn't explicitly talk about the Prophets succession.

You therefore need to go to hadith.

And as it's a matter of salvation and fundamentals those hadith should be mutawair.

Which is not found in Sunni books by Sunni standards.

Not found in Zaidi books.

As for 12er your standard of mutawatir coded by Hili etc are very strict.

Multiple chains no number given but generally talking over 10 (taken from a lecture on hadith by Syed Qazwini), complete chains, with every narrator being reliable,

some say all must be 12er ( I won't comment on the cyclic nature of this clause)

So it's hard enough for a non 12er to find this clear guidance but even as a 12er following your own guidelines it's difficult. On top of that there are contradicting reports on number.

So what is this clear guidance that a non muslim would be able to come to the conclusion that 12 infallible people are the foundation of his belief if he were to convert ?

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2 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

And by the way the verse you are quoting in 35th chapter about the chosen ones from God's servants, the "of them" refers to servants of God as is clear by the preceding verse which emphasizes "and God with respect to his servants is aware seeing".

It's not that there are oppressive people under Ahlulbayt, the argument Imam Reda (a) is making, if it as Sunni scholars were saying, that oppressive people are among them and the chosen refers to nation, it would be that they all promised paradise by flow (since t hem would not change in the following verse), which doesn't make sense, as there are oppressors per the verse among them.

Anyways, I don't see the relevance with the designation of Twelve Successors else where in Quran. Like I said, the same Quran that guides to Ahlulbayt will guide to the specific Ahlulbayt and number of successors. God suffices his servants.

With all due respect Akhi, you are not making sense. 

Anything that requires nuanced reading is not a Hujjah on anyone, everyone can interpret the Qur'an as they please. Let us stick to what is clear from the Qur'an - i.e that which does not require speculation and can be understood through its literal context and that which is Mu[Edited Out]tir from the Holy Prophet. 

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There has been a war from sorcerers and devils of Jinn and humans to separate Quran from Ahlulbayt and Ahlulbayt from Quran.  The number twelve is mentioned, the word "ahlulbayt""Qurba" "Ulil-Amr" all mentioned. The talk of twelve is not random and go along with the general verses designating Ahlulbayt (a).

Ahadith not confirmed by Quran are useless statements according to tawatur hadiths on how Quran and Sunnah should be approached.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2021 at 2:42 PM, Zaidism said:

we absolve them from your false attributions

In your opinion, what "false attributions" do Twelvers make with regard to Al Ā'immah (peace be upon them)? Are we guilty of ghuluww like the exaggerators and extremists in your opinion? Do you consider them (i.e. Al Ā'immah) to be like normal people?

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)
On 6/2/2021 at 8:53 PM, Zaidism said:

one would ask why our twelver brothers were 12 centuries late.

After the Greater Occultation period began the ulema were treading cautiously with regard to filling in the responsibilities, duties, roles, functions etc. of the Hidden Imam (a). The ulema didn't know how long he would be gone (1 year, 5 years, 20 years, 100 years etc.). When they finally realized he would be gone for an extremely long period of time they tentatively began fulfilling the Imam's (a) tasks one-by-one. For a long time (initially) not one alīm even dared to lead Ṣalāt al-Jumuʿah or take khums/zakat from the people because they felt shy...they felt like they would be usurping or unfairly encroaching on a domain that wasn't rightfully theirs to take up...slowly different intellectual approaches began to formulize and take shape...some believed that the social and religious functions should be undertaken while the political sphere should be avoided...(i.e. quietist approach of Sistani and Khu'i which believes one should remain politically aloof but address social and religious concerns/duties)…Imam Khomeini began building on theories of predecessor Twelver thinkers of the past and took the role of the ulema, fuqaha, mujtahideen etc. to its logical conclusion by assuming ALL the dimensions of authority (including the political one)...this was his basis for formulating the Wilāyat al-Faqīh concept which (one may argue) mirrors Zaydi Imamate or Sunni Caliphate concept(s) to a greater or lesser extent.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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22 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

After the Greater Occultation period began the ulema were treading cautiously with regard to filling in the responsibilities, duties, roles, functions etc. of the Hidden Imam (a). The ulema didn't know how long he would be gone (1 year, 5 years, 20 years, 100 years etc.). When they finally realized he would be gone for an extremely long period of time they tentatively began fulfilling the Imam's (a) tasks one-by-one. For a long time (initially) not one alīm even dared to lead Ṣalāt al-Jumuʿah or take khums/zakat from the people because they felt shy...they felt like they would be usurping or unfairly encroaching on a domain that wasn't rightfully theirs to take up...slowly different intellectual approaches began to formulize and take shape...some believed that the social and religious functions should be undertaken while the political sphere should be avoided...(i.e. quietist approach of Sistani and Khu'i which believes one should remain politically aloof but address social and religious concerns/duties)…Imam Khomeini began building on theories of subsequent Twelver thinkers of the past and took the role of the ulema, fuqaha, mujtahideen etc. to its logical conclusion by assuming ALL the dimensions of authority (including the political one)...this was his basis for formulating the Wilāyat al-Faqīh concept which (one may argue) mirrors Zaydi Imamate or Sunni Caliphate concept(s) to a greater or lesser extent.

Akhi, I was referring to the revolution of Imam Khomeini.

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On 6/13/2021 at 11:10 PM, Zaidism said:

As I mentioned these are post-occultation period, not pre. Furthermore, you’re quoting your works not mine. 

Salam whether post or pre -occultation period or even real facts from any source you are totally  close minded for rejection  of crystal clear  truth.:einstein::sign_war:

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam whether post or pre -occultation period or even real facts from any source you are totally  close minded for rejection  of crystal clear  truth.:einstein::sign_war:

In response to the Waqefyah - a group of misguided Shias who believed that the 7th Imam was occult - Imam Ridha states:

قلت للرضا عليه السّلام: جُعلت فداك، قوم قد وقفوا على أبيك يزعمون أنّه لم يمت! قال: كذبوا، وهم كفّار بما أنزل الله ـ جلّ وعزّ ـ على محمّد صلّى الله عليه وآله، ولو كان الله يمدّ في أجَل أحد من بني آدم لحاجةِ الخلق إليه لَمدَّ الله في أجل رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله

Source: Rijaal Al-Kishi, Page 378 (2009, Beirut Edition)

For the non-arabic speakers, Imam Al-Ridha states that, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would have wanted to extend the life of one of his righteous servants, for the sake of guidance - this is an important clause - He would have done so for the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

An excellent response from Imam Al-Ridha (عليه السلام) when addressing those who believe in occult guides/Imams.

Edited by Zaidism
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Empire Model and State Sponsored "Version of the religion" /along with the  separation of state and  religion theme has skewed our understanding of "The Religion".

To Recite the Revelation/Teach the Book,Knowledge/Wisdom and purify. Relates to people at the fundamental level, Zulum(injustice) that manifests itself in the society is the outward form of internal Zulum/injustice.

The outward form of Zulum/injustice is managed by all societies thru legislation and penal code and over all governance of a family unit, Tribe, community, town, city ,state , country or the global Village whatever the shape or form or the word used to describe a collection of people. Nothing new, except previously it was man made. even after Islam, they interpret the book their own way so could be the same. 

Pagans/idol worshipers already knew the tribal hierarchy and had a tribal norm/code of conduct and punishment system so this part came to them easy and they just expanded it. Replaced tribal code , internal governance and penal system with Islam./mostly their version.  Governance and Political/State part was easy, and this became the face of Islam. 

They either could not fully comprehend or just neglected the education/reform that needed at the individual level which produces a just community. Eradication or slow removal or reduction of Zulum/injustice at an individual level which produces outer Zulum/injustice.

An Oppressor who oppresses others is dealing with internal Zulum/injustice and byproduct/result is Outward oppression on others. 

State sponsored way of life was highly concentrated on one part of the equation, the other part if there was any awareness of it was left to the individuals - stay in your mosques and pray/fast /recite and be good. 

The result is that the Majority and the offshoots of the Majority's ideology - just look at political state and power. and this is their understanding of religion and glory of islam. 

They call these Khalifa/imams , so there is a major disconnect here from the Message and what was the job of the successors. Political aspect is only one aspect of a Way of Life. 

If anyone is involve in any resistance movement, or a change of government as we have seen in recent years , these leaders are not Imams. We have a Holy Imam Al-Mahdi(عليه السلام) the Successor who is tasked with ALL Amr/Comprehensive Guidance of humanity .

These great people who we see are their servants so it not the same that we have imams who take political action and we are similar to others who follow and call their fallible jurists of Islamic law or political leaders as imams. 

You can't chose your own leaders/imams as you are aware the world elects their kind, the majority will elect the who will benefit them the most and we are in a declining cycle, so we will be choosing leaders who will satisfy the call of the society and the society is in decline. To hand this job to the public is shedding water on the work of ALL the messengers from day one. This job is not entrusted to joe public . 

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fyi

Quote

Apart from him, one of the great scholastic theologians of the Imamiyah sect has said: Most of our opponents ask us regarding such matters on this subject whereas they should know that to believe in the occultation of the Imam of the Age is based on the fact that we should first believe in the Imamate of his purified ancestors. And to believe in the Imamate of his purified ancestors based on the fact that we testify to the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (S) and accept his Imamate and leadership, because right from the beginning it is a related matter not a pure academic subject. Discussion in religious topics should be based on Quran and traditions as Allah, the Mighty and Sublime says:

تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ

…then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle…66

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#statement-mashayakh-refutation-zaidiyyah-sect

Seven Objection of the Zaydiah sect 

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#first-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

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55 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

An excellent response from Imam Al-Ridha (عليه السلام) when addressing those who believe in occult guides/Imams.

You are comparing apple with oranges just to prove your rhetotric because this narration has no relation to denying occultation however Imam Mahdi (aj) lifespan is not infinit which his lifespan will end after his reappearnce ,In similar fashion , which all muslim creeds even Zaydis belive to long lifespan of prophet Khidr which he has been alive before prophet Muhammd (pbu) sofar which he has been in occultation until in similar fashion of Imam Mahdi (aj)  his long  lifespan has described by narrations although majority of muslim has not seen him before & after prophet Muhammad which his lifespan will end after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) likewise Imam Mahdi (aj) & rest of creatures of Allah in certain time of it.

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

An excellent response from Imam Al-Ridha (عليه السلام) when addressing those who believe in occult guides/Imams.

By contrast of you Zaydis don't deny idea of "occult guides/Imams." but they have different definition of who is Imam which Imam Mahdi (aj) matchs with both definition of twelvers & Zaydis as a Imam who will rise by sword of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) the Zulfiqar against injustice & tyrant leaders.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You are comparing apple with oranges just to prove your rhetotric because this narration has no relation to denying occultation certain time of it.

I disagree as Imam is clearly denying an extended lifespan after the Prophet to serve guidance, which is a key point to the occultation. So you may choose to look at multiple narration for a more holistic view.

But as a single narration this very much goes against occultation of anyone after the Prophet.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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