Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydism, imamah and the layman


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

As-salamu alaikum,

Sonce there are no current imams of zaydism, what is the role of laymen in these times. What are their roles politically. Would it be fair to say if there was an imam, the lay follower in a way could be regarded as a samurai, serving the imam as foot soldiers. In the absence of the imam dies the laymen seek knowledge from zaydi ulama? How do the laymen support the rise of the imam? 
 

I read on a non Muslim site that some zaydi ulama abolished the Imamate. That doesn’t seem right. Is there any truth to it? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
16 hours ago, Zaidism said:

However, whoever called to themselves - regardless if they revolted or not will gain the title of Imam, thus the case of Imam Ridha. Of course Imam is broad term, for example Imam Sadiq/Baqir (Imams of 'ilm, not Jihad). 

Thanks akhi. Is there a specification when it comes to the Imam that calls to himself as opposed to imams of ilm? Or is the name imam equally given to both? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

Thanks akhi. Is there a specification when it comes to the Imam that calls to himself as opposed to imams of ilm? Or is the name imam equally given to both? 

Yes, the specification is per:

Those who stay at home are not equal to those who strive in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has elevated in rank those who strive with their wealth and their lives above those who stay behind.  Allah has promised each a fine reward, but those who strive will receive a far better reward than others— [4:95]

Important to note that in order to be an Imam who calls to oneself legitimately one of the prerequisites the Imam needs to have is the quality of 'ilm, so that he can judge per the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon Him and his progeny). His 'ilm being at the level of a very advanced Mujtahid. 

Imam is a very broad term and it is generally given out of respect, therefore, it is important to not focus much on the terminology used, rather the level of sacrifice and contribution. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Layman, Terminology has changed with time, people usually would refer to the Most learned person of their particular time or area. Basically a "Subject Matter Expert as a Scholar, Shaykh, Mujtahid, Fuqha, Jurist, Marja-e-Taqlid, Ayatollah, or an "Imam of Fiqh" ( Jurisprudence).

There is a lot of confusion with the usage if this term 'Imam" which is usually referring to the "Imam of Fiqh(Jurist)". like the imam of Friday prayers . Leader in the Matter of Jurisprudence.

Muslims refer to their ' Four Jurists - imam of Fiqh as 'Imam". This is very misleading and coveys a very different meaning compared to the reality.

Even Shia scholars just use the terms very loosely in their books or lectures referring them to the imam of ahlul Sunnah for ...

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONLY) Abu Hanifa

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONY) Malik ibn Anas

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (Only)  Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONLY) Al-Shafi'i

The above FALLIBLE- Jurists ACQUIRED KNOWLEDGE according to the people who followed them back in the time. Leaders of Jurisprudence. or imam of Fiqh(jurisprudence) .

This is similar to Shia who follow a person who struggles to ACQUIRE KNOWLEDGE in Jurisprudence. Marhja-e-Taqlid/Most learned Jurists in Islamic Acts. . The most learned Jurist like Sayyed Sistani, Shaykh Khorasani, Sayyed Khamenei..

The INFALLIBLE Imam Jaʿfar ibn Muḥammad aṣ-Ṣādiq (عليه السلام) who was from the same era. Is usually considered as a Jurists by them(muslims).

So, they just use the words like imam Sadiq and imam Abu Hanifa .

The difference, here is that like the Jurists in Islamic Law of our time, these four were simply learned people in a particular science called Jurisprudence/Fiqh. Compared to the Holy Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) - Representative of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) on Earth and the Imam in ALL Aspects- (in Humanly possible conceivable sense - Theology, Qur'an, Hadith a Guide to the Humanity.

Some refer to their Jurisprudence and/or Political leaders as imams.

Imami Shia has had an Holy INFALLIBLE IMAM, Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Representative on Earth his name is Imam Al- Mahdi(عليه السلام). We follow the Current FALLIBLE Jurist in terms of Islamic acts which have not been made clear - The newly occurring issues ...Like the current Supreme/high court looks at current/new social/economic/political issues and makes a ruling in light of the Constitution. Their best answer thru their struggle to Acquire Expertise Similarly, the Jurist ruling is 'What could be Allah(عزّ وجلّ) law NOT what is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) law in this new issue based on their knowledge of the Constitution.

ONLY a Ma'soom( The Representative Appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) can tell us what is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Law.

So, the difference here is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Appointed/Chosen vs. Chosen by man of that time.

There were great leaders in the ares of Politics and acquired Knowledge and will be in the future. Sayyed Khomeini was a great leader, and a Jurists and a scholar but NOT an IMAM. We don't assign this title, its is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) who appoints his Representative for "Complete" Guidance of

Humanity.

INFALLIBLE does not have ACQUIRED KNOWLEDGE/WISDOM it is granted by their Lord.

Fallible Scholars/Jurists acquire knowledge thru means available to them at that time.

Those who do not believe in Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appointment of a Wali/Guardian or those who take any person who Acquire's Knowledge in Fiqh or political power thru worldly means are different.

Imami Shia' s have had people in the past and in the future who will excel in learning and politics but they are not called Imams. They are simply, great learned people in their discipline or political or revolutionary figures/ leaders of that time. ( with all due respect to their contribution they are still Transient figures- and we don't do people worship).

LAYMAN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Salam

The number twelve in all places it's mentioned and indirect references to it as well (like the Statues of Sulaiman and his giant basins) prove the number of successors of Mohammad (s) to be twelve and Mohammad (s) said in a hadith and his words of light are beyond humans games of what is authentic and what is not, and are proofs and insights and guidance with respect to Quran said "believe in the authority of the number twelve" and quoted four verses and said this is with respect to the role of Ali (A) and his successors (a).

Imam Mohammad (a) Al-Baqir also explained the proper translation of verses of twelve in the 9th chapter including the word commonly translated as year to be referring to Mohammad (s) and hence better translated as generic. And months are better translated as luminaries to be referred to or what is commonly called "Marjaa" today. And Imam Jaffar (a) the proper translation of Ummatan in many places and explain those verses to be about the Awsiya (a) in the 7th. And Asbat means branches, not tribes in most places if not all in Quran and this was and is till of the tahreef of the Torah in that where they translate tribes of children of Israel it's referring to the twelve branches of Moses (a) and his successors (a) and this is why it's emphasized the twelve springs from one, because it explains the word "asbat" in Arabic to be branches and originally in hebrew it means branches of water, like when water splits. It's metaphorical when said to tribe, but there is no proof it means that instead of literally the successors of Moses.

And in 7th chapter, it would mean there is one course towards God from childen of Israel, and they were split in twelve branches, each as ways, in themselves, so one course from one perspective and twelve courses from another, and to explain all this, explains the miracle of Moses when he split twelve springs from one stone, and so they all go back to Moses' in the same way and he is their root.

The light revealed with Mohammad (s) are the Twelve Imams (a) - Ali (a) and his successors (a) per ahadith about that verse, in that context.

As for Captains, there is ahadith that not a Nabi or Rasool but there is always twelve Captains with him and there are hadith every Nabi or Rasool had an Ahlulbayt. The Quran also shows the light was always shinning to humanity through men who God put in families/households/houses that he allowed to be risen and his named remembered in them.

Mohammad (s) and his successors (a) a house among the houses God allowed to be risen and raised there off.  The Quran talked about ships through out and talked about them in tribulations and safety. When in tribulations, humans believe in Ahlulbayt of their time, and await the days of God, while when in safety, they tend to be ungrateful and turn to Shirk after as did Bani-Israel when saved by Moses (a).

Noah's (a) ship anchoring and sailing was both by the name of God, and so we can see with the ship theme, that the founding Captain and his twelve succeeding Captains are the name of God of their time. 

There is proof that Bani-Israel is a metaphor of followers of Ibrahim, Ishmael, and Isaac and Yacoub being from them, the proof in Quran is that they are said to be offspring of those who were carried with Nuh and the proof of it in ahadith is that Imams (a) talked about their Shiites being born from their light or clay, while their enemies of illegitimate (spiritual) birth. That and Imam Ali (a) talks about bani-Israel being bani-Ismail and bani-Isaac in nahjul balagha and that being synonymous terms.

And there is proof bani-Adam means we are all spiritually somehow linked back to him, all humans, have inherited a bit of his light and are called back to the religion of Adam when called back by the Messengers, but there would be no need to emphasize "and from the offspring of Adam" with respect to Prophets and chosen guides in Adam's lineage if we all humans linked back to Adam.

This doesn't mean we all came from apes or monkeys or whatever but it's most likely the case, we have multiple ancestors so as to not have incest and have multiple genes factoring in our blood. Adam (a) was the spiritual father of all the first humans for sure but physical father, I don't believe so.

Followers of Talut (a) and Ibrahim (a) are emphasized to be from their Imams. We can too be offspring spiritually of Imam Mahdi (a) and Ahlulbayt (a) as ahadith show and this what it means for Salman (a) to be from Ahlulbayt (a), his soul being was born from their light because he was guided by their example and teachings and inspiration and other spiritual truths is that there is a connection of Ahlulbayt (a) with their believers as the hadiths say.

And eleven stars and the sun and moon, let me tell you what Yaqoub (a) saw. Yaqoub (a) saw it as Ibrahim, Lot, Ismail, Isaac and the remaining successors of Yusuf,  and that he (Yaqoub) was the Sun, and moon can be Sarah or Benjamin I'm not sure but it seems to me that Sarah (a) is the moon (I have an explanation as to why with the light of the chosen ladies being like a moon in dark night of nature when humans get confused about sexual deviance and guidance).

And it was way of God keeping the number alive, that, he put this in that way, and it seems like it's the brothers of Joseph when it's not.  This was a way of God concealing what Yacoub (a) saw in it so it came to have double meaning.

In the same way "Captains" "Shuhr  (luminaries to be referred to)" "Branches" "ways/courses" all are given double meaning with twelve, and the twelve Lion statues bani-Israel can see as twelve tribes but really about Sulaiman predecessors and Successors, predecessors up to Moses and successors up to Jesus.

This is a way of God protecting the truth and the twelve sons of Ismail were also according to the number of Twelve princes promised from the offspring of the king Mohammad (s) from his offspring as a way of keeping this prophecy alive.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 6/5/2021 at 11:09 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

As a Layman, Terminology has changed with time, people usually would refer to the Most learned person of their particular time or area. Basically a "Subject Matter Expert as a Scholar, Shaykh, Mujtahid, Fuqha, Jurist, Marja-e-Taqlid, Ayatollah, or an "Imam of Fiqh" ( Jurisprudence).

There is a lot of confusion with the usage if this term 'Imam" which is usually referring to the "Imam of Fiqh(Jurist)". like the imam of Friday prayers . Leader in the Matter of Jurisprudence.

Muslims refer to their ' Four Jurists - imam of Fiqh as 'Imam". This is very misleading and coveys a very different meaning compared to the reality.

Even Shia scholars just use the terms very loosely in their books or lectures referring them to the imam of ahlul Sunnah for ...

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONLY) Abu Hanifa

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONY) Malik ibn Anas

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (Only)  Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Fallible Jurist in Islamic law (ONLY) Al-Shafi'i

The above FALLIBLE- Jurists ACQUIRED KNOWLEDGE according to the people who followed them back in the time. Leaders of Jurisprudence. or imam of Fiqh(jurisprudence) .

This is similar to Shia who follow a person who struggles to ACQUIRE KNOWLEDGE in Jurisprudence. Marhja-e-Taqlid/Most learned Jurists in Islamic Acts. . The most learned Jurist like Sayyed Sistani, Shaykh Khorasani, Sayyed Khamenei..

The INFALLIBLE Imam Jaʿfar ibn Muḥammad aṣ-Ṣādiq (عليه السلام) who was from the same era. Is usually considered as a Jurists by them(muslims).

So, they just use the words like imam Sadiq and imam Abu Hanifa .

The difference, here is that like the Jurists in Islamic Law of our time, these four were simply learned people in a particular science called Jurisprudence/Fiqh. Compared to the Holy Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) - Representative of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) on Earth and the Imam in ALL Aspects- (in Humanly possible conceivable sense - Theology, Qur'an, Hadith a Guide to the Humanity.

Some refer to their Jurisprudence and/or Political leaders as imams.

Imami Shia has had an Holy INFALLIBLE IMAM, Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Representative on Earth his name is Imam Al- Mahdi(عليه السلام). We follow the Current FALLIBLE Jurist in terms of Islamic acts which have not been made clear - The newly occurring issues ...Like the current Supreme/high court looks at current/new social/economic/political issues and makes a ruling in light of the Constitution. Their best answer thru their struggle to Acquire Expertise Similarly, the Jurist ruling is 'What could be Allah(عزّ وجلّ) law NOT what is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) law in this new issue based on their knowledge of the Constitution.

ONLY a Ma'soom( The Representative Appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) can tell us what is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Law.

So, the difference here is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Appointed/Chosen vs. Chosen by man of that time.

There were great leaders in the ares of Politics and acquired Knowledge and will be in the future. Sayyed Khomeini was a great leader, and a Jurists and a scholar but NOT an IMAM. We don't assign this title, its is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) who appoints his Representative for "Complete" Guidance of

Humanity.

INFALLIBLE does not have ACQUIRED KNOWLEDGE/WISDOM it is granted by their Lord.

Fallible Scholars/Jurists acquire knowledge thru means available to them at that time.

Those who do not believe in Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appointment of a Wali/Guardian or those who take any person who Acquire's Knowledge in Fiqh or political power thru worldly means are different.

Imami Shia' s have had people in the past and in the future who will excel in learning and politics but they are not called Imams. They are simply, great learned people in their discipline or political or revolutionary figures/ leaders of that time. ( with all due respect to their contribution they are still Transient figures- and we don't do people worship).

LAYMAN.

Great in theory does not exist in the real world, upon scrutiny this “infallible” perspective towards the Imams is nowhere to be found. The differences in opinion between each imam is very much evident - to argue for taqiyyah is quite a stretch, especially when you had one of your grand Sheikhs Ibn Al-Junayd who lived at the time of Al-Kulayni - and is considered reliable by Al-Khoei, Najashi, Mufīd - did not believe that the Imams were infallible, and he considered the differences to simply be ikhtilafat in opinion.

Therefore, if you’d like to take this route of taqiyyah and juxtapose it with your theory of infallible Imams which cannot be maintained past Imam Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) you need to explain why Al-Sadiq/Al-Baqir May Allāh absolve them from your slanderous lies, would give false verdicts for the sake of “taqiyyah” but at the same time would send their sons to fight alongside Zaidi Imams?!

Look no further then the revolt of Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah, the bay’ah of Al-Sadiq to Abdullah bin Al-Hassan and the participation of Al-Kadhim in his revolution. Did taqiyyah fly out the window here? Why are two infallible Imams giving bay’ah and why is Al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) endangering his life like this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Great in theory does not exist in the real world, upon scrutiny this “infallible” perspective towards the Imams is nowhere to be found. The differences in opinion between each imam is very much evident - to argue for taqiyyah is quite a stretch, especially when you had one of your grand Sheikhs Ibn Al-Junayd who lived at the time of Al-Kulayni - and is considered reliable by Al-Khoei, Najashi, Mufīd - did not believe that the Imams were infallible, and he considered the differences to simply be ikhtilafat in opinion.

Therefore, if you’d like to take this route of taqiyyah and juxtapose it with your theory of infallible Imams which cannot be maintained past Imam Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) you need to explain why Al-Sadiq/Al-Baqir May Allāh absolve them from your slanderous lies, would give false verdicts for the sake of “taqiyyah” but at the same time would send their sons to fight alongside Zaidi Imams?!

Look no further then the revolt of Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah, the bay’ah of Al-Sadiq to Abdullah bin Al-Hassan and the participation of Al-Kadhim in his revolution. Did taqiyyah fly out the window here? Why are two infallible Imams giving bay’ah and why is Al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) endangering his life like this?

Akhi do you have references for this? Very intriguing seeing a post like this right when I’m about to quit the forum to focus on some other things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
21 minutes ago, MexicanVato said:

Akhi do you have references for this? Very intriguing seeing a post like this right when I’m about to quit the forum to focus on some other things. 

Certainly Akhi, I don't know the exact English source, as I have read it in Arabic, however, you will find the context pertaining to the revolt found in Maqatil Al-Talibiyin for Abu Faraj Al-Asfahani; refer to the section of Muhammad bin Abdullah Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah.

As for the views of Ibn Al-Junayd: 

 

(Forgive me, I know you don't speak Arabic, but I don't know of any English source)

And the whole issue of taqiyyah is one which we can discuss when you are back to the forum Insha'Allah :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Great in theory does not exist in the real world, upon scrutiny this “infallible” perspective towards the Imams is nowhere to be found.

Do you believe Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) Infallible.? If there is any conditional statement (s) which qualify your version of infallibility state them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Therefore, if you’d like to take this route of taqiyyah and juxtapose it with your theory of infallible Imams which cannot be maintained past Imam Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) you need to explain why Al-Sadiq/Al-Baqir May Allāh absolve them from your slanderous lies, would give false verdicts for the sake of “taqiyyah” but at the same time would send their sons to fight alongside Zaidi Imams?!

Look no further then the revolt of Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah, the bay’ah of Al-Sadiq to Abdullah bin Al-Hassan and the participation of Al-Kadhim in his revolution. Did taqiyyah fly out the window here? Why are two infallible Imams giving bay’ah and why is Al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) endangering his life like this?

Salam Taqiyyah has a vast definition  which is not only sitting in house & avoiding Jihad which Imam Ali practiced Taqiyya by not fighting  with first two caliphs & postponing punishment of killers of third caliph but when Islam was in danger during his caliphate time so he engaged in war with cursed Muawiah   & Khawarij & people  like Talha & Zubair & Aisha which have misused from their position for fighting with Islam which Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) by his treaty has practiced for safegurarding of few remaining  shias & actt of Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) was a journy for objection with cursed Yazid (la) which his battle in Karbala was a defensive  war against army of Yazid which due to Taqyyia he has not declared Jihad against Yazid (la) when he left Mecca which only went to Karbala for ordering good & forbidding  evil not a full scale Jihad and revolts of "Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah" & "Abdullah bin Al-Hassan" have not confirmed  by any infallible  Imam which your about supporting  them by Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) & Imam Musa Kadhim is a baseless & void claim based on deviated history .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

have not confirmed  by any infallible  Imam which your about supporting  them by Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) & Imam Musa Kadhim is a baseless & void claim based on deviated history .

Deviated history because it doesn’t fit your narrative? 

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Taqiyyah has a vast definition 

Contradicting legal verdicts by the Imams -are they simply different ijtihadi opinions as Ibn Al-Junayd holds? Therefore, no infallibility to be maintained, or are they due to Taqiyyah? If the latter, I rest my case and leave the remaining ocean of Taqiyyah for yourself and as you strangely define it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
12 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Do you believe Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) Infallible.? If there is any conditional statement (s) which qualify your version of infallibility state them. 

1. Prophet is infallible 

2. The people of the cloak are infallible 

3. The اجماع of العترة is infallible

We understand infallibility differently, i.e no exaggerations, none of this knowledge of the unseen, wilayah takwiyniyyah belief; rather they are infallible in their Hukm, decree, and action. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

1. Prophet is infallible 

2. The people of the cloak are infallible 

3. The اجماع of العترة is infallible

We understand infallibility differently, i.e no exaggerations, none of this knowledge of the unseen, wilayah takwiyniyyah belief; rather they are infallible in their Hukm, decree, and action. 

 

Have no idea what # 3 is. 

This Hukum,,decree and action seems to need more clarity. You mean in terms of revelation and law and not otherwise? be very clear, so there is no ambiguity. 

Infallible in terms of NO Error, Mistakes or Sins. ?

Are the Imam(s) Appointed, by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) . Did Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appoint a successor for Muhammad Al- Mustafa( peace be upon him and his pure progeny). ? 

Ghadir Khumm? what was it announcement of a beloved friend? or Mawla/Master? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
5 hours ago, Zaidism said:

We understand infallibility differently, i.e no exaggerations, none of this knowledge of the unseen, wilayah takwiyniyyah belief; rather they are infallible in their Hukm, decree, and action. 

This is essentially the traditional/classical Shi'i belief of infallibility. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
36 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is essentially the traditional/classical Shi'i belief of infallibility. 

I believe a strict and orthodox approach to 12er would filter out alot and Zaidi and 12er are a lot similar to each other. 

But "strict and orthodox" can mean alot if different things to alot if people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Have no idea what # 3 is. 

This Hukum,,decree and action seems to need more clarity. You mean in terms of revelation and law and not otherwise? be very clear, so there is no ambiguity. 

Infallible in terms of NO Error, Mistakes or Sins. ?

Are the Imam(s) Appointed, by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) . Did Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appoint a successor for Muhammad Al- Mustafa( peace be upon him and his pure progeny). ? 

Ghadir Khumm? what was it announcement of a beloved friend? or Mawla/Master? 

All human are capable of errors. Even Prophets. But the message is protected as well as Prophets being protected from major sin.

Freind is only used by Sunni. Shia are by definition agreed upon as Imam Ali being the successor of the Prophet. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can't appeal to generalities, like All humans sin, make mistakes, error , have desires or forget. 

When you say, "Even Prophets" in which Context, and how do you rationalize it and support it with the Book? 

If the one who send me a Guide who can make mistakes, it reflects back on the Originator. This does not constitute error free guidance. Mind will never ever be at rest, perpetual Doubt, which will eventually  lead to Agnostic, Atheist realm. 

If I do not have confidence in the ability of the one who commands me, I will not Obey. If the one who Originated this, commands me to Obey someone, this means it is the Originator who I trust and have trust in his appointment. Which will be error free.  There were those who doubted during their time, and they questions the peace treaty, or tragedy of thursday, so you see absolute Faith is critical. Or it defeats the purpose, back to doubts and ignorance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

.When you say, "Even Prophets" in which Context, and how do you rationalize it and support it with the Book? 

 

 

The Exalted says: {so that Allah might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future} (Q. 48:2).

 Moses: {“O my Lord! Verily, I have sinned  against myself! Grant me, then, Thy forgiveness!”} (Q. 28:16).

 Jonah: {“There‟s no  Allah but You! Glorified be You! Verily I am from the wrongdoers!”} (Q. 21:87).

 David: {so he asked his Lord to forgive him his sin, fell down in prostration, and turned unto Him in  repentance} (Q. 38:24).

 Solomon: {We had tried Solomon by placing upon his throne a  [lifeless] body; and thereupon he turned [towards Us]} (Q. 38:34).

 Adam: {Adam  disobeyed his Lord and erred} (Q. 20:121). 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Contradicting legal verdicts by the Imams -are they simply different ijtihadi opinions as Ibn Al-Junayd holds? 

Ibn Al-Junayd jurispendence  has been based on Qiyas which has been described as Ijtihad of Shaitan for not prostrating to prophet Adam (عليه السلام) which Qiyas in Ijtihad has been criticized by both Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) , in similar  fashion , Abuhanifa used Qiyas

15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

because it doesn’t fit your narrative?

Salam, In contrast , You just took what fits your narrative just to deny truth based on a person who his viewpoint was closer to fallible persons likewise  Abuhanifa  & Malik than infallible shia Imams which except  revolt of Zayd ibn Ali (رضي الله عنه) rest of revolts by other people  in name of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) have been rejected by all shia Imams.

Ibn al-Junayd took it to be legitimate to deduce laws on the basis of analogy (qiyas) and other probabilistic evidence, and in cases of conflicts among sources, he believed that one should act out of caution.

These characteristics in Ibn al-Junayd's jurisprudence distinguished it from the standard Imamiyya jurisprudence and drew it closer to the Sunni jurisprudence. As some sources emphasized, his views were much closer to Abu Hanifa among Sunni scholars of jurisprudence, but in some issues they were closer to views of Malik.

Quote

Ibn al-Junayd and Theology

It is not much reported over who was Ibn al-Junayd's teacher in theology and what relations he had with Imamiyya scholars of theology in Baghdad at that time such as al-Nawbakhti Family and Muhammad b. Bahr al-Ruhni (d. before 330/ 941) and non-Imamiyya scholars of theology, such as Mu'tazila. We only know that he was known as a scholar of theology and wrote some works in this field.

One of his views in theology is that the jurisprudential hadiths of Imams (a) were their own opinions and matters of their own ijtihad. He also believed that Imams (a) always adjudicated on the basis of evidence everyone had access to, rather than knowledge of the hidden facts. Ibn al-Junayd wrote some books about significant issues in theology of Imamiyya.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ibn_al-Junayd_al-Iskafi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The Exalted says: {so that Allah might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future} (Q. 48:2).

 Moses: {“O my Lord! Verily, I have sinned  against myself! Grant me, then, Thy forgiveness!”} (Q. 28:16).

 Jonah: {“There‟s no  Allah but You! Glorified be You! Verily I am from the wrongdoers!”} (Q. 21:87).

 David: {so he asked his Lord to forgive him his sin, fell down in prostration, and turned unto Him in  repentance} (Q. 38:24).

 Solomon: {We had tried Solomon by placing upon his throne a  [lifeless] body; and thereupon he turned [towards Us]} (Q. 38:34).

 Adam: {Adam  disobeyed his Lord and erred} (Q. 20:121). 

[A request to the mods to allow guests to highlight text to bold]

Pal, if you were not to try to bypass your ideology using a few verses, a likewise case applies to the other Prophets too. Better not attempt to interpret the Holy verses as per your opinions. the very first and the foremost point, let me close all the doors for you to interpret the verses of the Holy Qur'an as per you opinions just as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said,

He is the One Who Revealed the Book unto you; from it are Decisive Verses - these are the Mother of the Book; and others are Allegorical. Then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity, so they are following what is allegorical from it, seeking the Fitna and seeking its (personal) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge. They are saying, ‘We believe in it. It is all from the Presence of our Lord’. And none (would) mention except those with the understanding [3:7]

Here "those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge" refers to none other than the Holy Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) (12 Imams) and afterall it makes complete sense since RasoolAllah (s) kept them as a weighty thing along with the Holy Qur'an and commanded the mankind to rely upon them along with the Holy Qur'an so we may not go astray nor be misguided and he (s) also added that they both won't seperate from each other until they meet me at the fountain of kawther (at the day of judgement) Infact,

 

As for the sunnis, there are way many hadith in sunni books where RasoolAllah (s) has said, Ali (عليه السلام) will protect the interpretation of the Qur'an just as I protected the revelation. And ofcourse we have plenty of hadtih by Rasool-Allah (s) in which he said that the second part refers to him (s) and the Imams (عليه السلام) after him and we also have way many hadith by the Holy Imams (عليه السلام) themselves where they've said it refers to us. Now keeping ayat al tatheer into consideration and keeping their infallibility into consideration as well, we have to accept what they say willingly or unwillingly. And no one has the audacity to say that verse refers to people in general since Allah has said, 

"Except Allah" and those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge". 

Allah has kept Himself at first place so there's a desperate necessity for the ones at the second place i.e thise who are firmly rooted in the knowledge has to be the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed his knowledge so they may guide the mankind. And we see in that very verse itself Allah has crystal clear condemned the ones at first place who seek interpretation by their opinions and again here as well it makes complete sense since a scholar can say something and attribute the verses to someone and other can do vice versa and all of them would assume to be interpreted it correctly out of their faulty conjecture and there would be endless clashes between the entire muslim world. THAT'S THE VERY REASON according to the 12 Holy Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) the one who interprets the verses of Holy Qur'an as per his opinions has disbelieved. and ofcourse we have way many hadith in shia books containing different chain of the narrators said by different Imams at various different occasions hence in conclusion,

WE HAVE TO REVERT TOWARDS THE AHLULBAYT (عليه السلام) (12 IMAMS) FOR THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HOLY QUR'AN.

 

 

Now let's have a look how the "ones firmly rooted in the Knowledge" Interpret the verses.

 

Then they both ate of it, and their evil inclinations were manifested to them, and they both began to cover themselves with leaves of the Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he strayed [20:121]

 

Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Ahmad Bin Ziyad Bin Ja’far Al Hamdany narrated to us along with Al Husayn Bin Ibrahim Bin Ahmad Bin Hisham Al Maktab, and Ali Bin Abdullah Al Waraq, from Ali Bin Ibrahim Bin

Hashim, from Al Qasim Bin Muhammad Al Barmakky, from Abu Al Salt Al Harawy who said,

‘When Al-Mamoun gathered to Ali Al-Reza (asws), the debaters from the people of Al-Islam and from the Religions of the Jews, and the Christians, and the Magians, and the Sabean, and the rest of the debaters, so no one stood up except that he (asws) necessitated the proof as if he had swallowed a stone. Ali Bin Muhammad Al-Jaham stood up and said, ‘O sonasws of Rasool-Allah (saww)! Are you speaking for the infallibility of the Prophets?’ 

He (asws) said: ‘Yes’.

He said, ‘So what are you (asws) saying with regards to the Words of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Exalted: And Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he strayed [20:121]?’

 

So Al Reza (asws) said: ‘Woe be unto you - O Ali – fear Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and do not attach the immoralities to the Prophets of Allah! And do not interpret the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) by your opinion, for Allah Mighty and Majestic has Said: And none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge [3:7].

 

And he (asws) said: ‘As for the Words of the Mighty and Majestic regarding Adam (as): And Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he strayed [20:121], so Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Created Adam (عليه السلام) as a Proof in His earth and a Caliph in His Country. He did not Create him for the Paradise. And the disobedience from Adam (عليه السلام) was in the Paradise, not in the earth (and his infallibility would have been necessitated had he been in the earth), in order to for the completion of the Measures of Allah Mighty and Majestic to take place. So when he (عليه السلام) descended to the earth, and He (عزّ وجلّ) Made himas to be a Divine Authority and a Caliph, he (عليه السلام) was obedient to Him, as per the Words of the Mighty

and Majestic: Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the progeny of Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran above the worlds [3:33]’

عيون أخبار ال ّرضا 1 :191 /1

 

 

 

Let me add something more,

 

(I Swear) by the star when it swoops down [53:1]

Your companion does not err, and does not deviate [53:2]

And he does not speak out of (personal) desire [53:3]

Surely, it is only a Revelation He Revealed [53:4]

 

Now here Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says,

 

For Allah to Forgive you what has preceded from your sins and what is delayed the Complete His Favour upon you and Guide you on a Straight Path [48:2]

 

See the tafseer now,

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from Muhammad Bin Ja’far, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad, from Muhammad Bin Al-Husayn, from Ali Bin Al-No’man, from Ali Bin Ayoub, from Umar Bin Yazeed who said, 

‘I said to Abu Abdullah !(asws) , ‘(What about) the Words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in His Book For Allah to Forgive you what has preceded from your sins and what is delayed [48:2].

He (asws) said: ‘There was no sin on him (s), nor was he (s) with a sin, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) burdened him with the sins of his Shias, then Forgave them for his sake’.

Tafseer al qummi 2:314

 

 

Sharaf Al-Deen Al-Najafi said, 

‘And it is supported by what has been reported from Abu Al-Hassan (asws) the Third having said about the Words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Mighty and Majestic: For Allah to Forgive you what has preceded from your sins and what is delayed [48:2].

so he (asws) said: ‘And which sin was committed by Rasool-Allah (saww), before or after?’ But rather, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Burdened him (saws) with the sins of the Shias of Ali (asws) , from the past among them and the ones who remain, then Forgave them on his behalf’.

Taaweel Al Ayaat 2:593/4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Quote

There is also a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a) according to which if qiyas is made in the religion, then the religion will be wiped out.[10] But Sunni scholars maintain that qiyas is valid. The first person who made an extensive use of qiyas in fiqh was Abu Hanifa. However, it is said that the use of qiyas had precedents prior to Abu Hanifa. For example, the first, the second, and the third caliphs employed qiyas in issues on which there was no explicit ruling.[11]

 

Quote

Imam al-Sadiq's (a) Debate over the Qiyas

In his book, al-Ikhtisas, al-Shaykh al-Mufid reported a debate between Abu Hanifa and Imam al-Sadiq (a) over the validity of qiyas. Imam al-Sadiq's (a) arguments against qiyas are as follows: Imam al-Sadiq (a) said, "O Abu Hanifa! Which one do you think is more significant; adultery or murder?" He said, of course, murder. The Imam said, "so why did God rule that the testimony of two men suffices in the case of murder, while for adultery the testimony of four men is required? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? O Abu Hanifa! Which one is worse, the abandoning of the fast or the abandoning of the prayer?" He said, of course, the abandoning of the prayer. The Imam said, "so, why should a woman perform the qada' of her fasts during her menstrual periods, but it is not obligatory for her to perform the qada' of her prayers? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? Woe to you, Abu Hanifa! Are women weaker in business or men?" He said, of course, women. The Imam said, "so, why did God allocate two shares of heritage to men and only one share for women? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? O Abu Hanifa! Is one's feces dirtier or his semen?" He said, of course, feces. The Imam said, "so, why did God rule that it is sufficient to wash the affected area to clean the feces, but for the semen, He required ghusl? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas?

Quote

This is a well known story of Sheykh Chilli. One day, in the midst of the summer heat, he decided to do some gardening. So he went to get his gardening tool which had become quite hot due to the summer heat. As soon as he grabbed hold of the tool his hand got scalded from it. So he asked for advice from someone to take a look at the gardening tool and see what the problem was. So the advisor said mockingly: ‘Your gardening tool has got high fever. The solution is to tie a rope round it and immerse it into the water well so that its fever can come down’. So Sheykh Chilli followed the instructions and lo, the tool cooled down. By coincidence, after a few days his mother fell ill with high fever. So Sheykh Chilli then started thinking that surely there is a similarity here between the two cases. Therefore the same order should be applicable on both the cases. He then tied a rope around his mother’s neck and flung her into the water well. After a few dips when he took her out, the fever was gone, but then so was his mother. I don’t think Sheykh Chilli should be totally blamed for doing what he did as his error can be classified as an ‘error of Ijtihad’.

 

Quote

In Tafser Saafi it has been narrated from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) that: ‘Anyone who had decided upon the commission of a sin and turned away from the remembrance of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).), and stopped learning religious Commands from the one whom He ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) had ordered to learn from, then Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) appoints a Shaytan to become his associate’.

 

Quote

In the Sermon of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) titled as ‘Unbelief and its pillars and branches’, he says: ‘Unbelief stands of four things - Sinfulness, Extremism, Doubt and Scepticism.

Sinfulness has four branches:

1.Giving low priority to Divine Commands.

2.Following conjecture. - Standing against the Creator and then Shaytan overcomes him.

3.Incurring loss on ones own self and considering ones deviation as a good deed.

4.Considering one’s own opinion as better than Divine Commadments. He will be disgraced by Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).).

 

DOUBT - Quarrelling about the bounties of Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).). (According to the Holy Infallibles ((عليه السلام).) what is mean by bounties here is the Wilayah (Mastership) of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).). This then means to quarrel about Wilayah and establishing one’s own Wilayah.

Quote

 Imam Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘Whoever decides to use analogical reasoning as a source of authority, his whole life will remain in confusion. Whoever practices the religion of Allah by means of analogical reasoning his whole life will pass in a drowning condition.’ 

Imam Ali has said, ‘No one has established any innovation (heresy) without abandoning an established noble tradition.’”

 (Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) has clearly stated that sleep with conviction is better than a whole night’s worship). One who deliberately makes divine commandments to be doubtful in favour of his own analogy has opposed Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).).

https://www.shiavault.com/books/kashaf-ul-haqaiq/chapters/7-chapter-6-qiyas-analogy/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 6/9/2021 at 2:53 AM, Zaidism said:

Look no further then the revolt of Al-Nafs Al-Zakiyyah, the bay’ah of Al-Sadiq to Abdullah bin Al-Hassan and the participation of Al-Kadhim in his revolution

Quote

In the View of Imam al-Sadiq (a)

Imam al-Sadiq (a) opposed the allegiance in Abwa', as some reports mentioned that his disagreement to allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah was because Muhammad regarded himself as the promised Mahdi. Imam (a) believed that it was not the right time for Mahdi (a) to be appeared and Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah did not have the characteristics of the promised Mahdi.[5]

The other reason for disagreement of Imam (a) was that he knew Banu Abbas would break their oath of allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah, and their purpose of taking the oath to him was get close to Alavis and prepare situation for themselves to achieve power and caliphate.[6]

A number of historians also mentioned that Imam al-Sadiq (a) similar to his father, Imam al-Baqir (a), disagreed with rebels. He was practicing the cultural Shi'ism attitude[7] which was in contrary to political Shi'ism attitude that Zaydis and Alavis were practicing.

However some reports mentioned that the only reason Imam al-Sadiq (a) disagreed with taking oath of allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah was that he called himself the promised Mahdi. Also Imam (a) did not oppose the rebel of Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah against tyranny and practicing enjoying the good and forbidding the evil.[8]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Muhammad_b._Abd_Allah_b._al-Hasan

Quote

However, there is no report about any explicit opposition by Musa b. Ja'far (a) to the Abbasid government. He practiced taqiyya (dissimulation) and recommended the Shi'as to observe it. For example, the Imam (a) wrote a letter to Khayzaran, the mother of al-Hadi al-'Abbasi, to console her about al-Hadi's death.[81] According to a hadith, when he was summoned by Harun, he said: "I will go to Harun because it is an obligation to practice taqiyya with respect to the ruler". He also accepted Harun's gifts for the marriages of Al Abi Talib in order to preserve their generation.[82] He even wrote a letter to 'Ali b. Yaqtin and asked him to perform the wudu' in the way it is performed by Sunni Muslims in order not to fall in danger.[83]

Alids Uprisings

Musa b. Ja'far's (a) life coincided with the peak of the Abbasid power and a number of Alids uprisings against them. The Abbasids took over the power with the slogan of supporting the Prophet's (s) Ahl al-Bayt (a), but it did not take long until they turned into ardent enemies of the Alids, killing or imprisoning many of them and their followers. The hostility of the Abbasid rulers to the Alids led some prominent Alids to begin uprisings against them. Examples of such uprisings include the uprising of al-Nafs al-Zakiyya, the establishment of the Idrisid government, and the Uprising of al-Fakhkh. The Uprising of al-Fakhkh occurred in 169/785 in the period of Musa b. Ja'far's (a) imamate and al-Hadi al-'Abbasi's caliphate.[84] The Imam (a) did not take part in these uprisings and no explicit position is reportedly taken by him in support or condemnation of such uprisings. Even Yahya b. 'Abd Allah wrote a letter and complained about the Imam's (a) silence about his uprising in Tabaristan.[85] There are two views about the Imam's (a) position with regard to the Uprising of al-Fakhkh which occurred in Medina:

  • Some people believe that the Imam (a) agreed with, and supported, the uprising. They appeal to a remark by the Imam (a) addressed to Shahid al-Fakhkh: "so be serious in what you do since these people express the faith but are polytheists in their hearts".[86]
  • Others believe that the uprisings were not supported by the Imam (a).[87]

However, when the Imam (a) saw the head of Shahid al-Fakhkh, he recited al-Istirja' Verse and admired him.[88] Al-Hadi al-'Abbasi believed that Imam al-Kazim (a) ordered the uprising of al-Fakhkh and thus, he threatened to kill him.[89]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Musa_b._Ja'far_al-Kazim_(a)

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sahib_Fakhkh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The Exalted says: {so that Allah might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future} (Q. 48:2).

 Moses: {“O my Lord! Verily, I have sinned  against myself! Grant me, then, Thy forgiveness!”} (Q. 28:16).

 Jonah: {“There‟s no  Allah but You! Glorified be You! Verily I am from the wrongdoers!”} (Q. 21:87).

 David: {so he asked his Lord to forgive him his sin, fell down in prostration, and turned unto Him in  repentance} (Q. 38:24).

 Solomon: {We had tried Solomon by placing upon his throne a  [lifeless] body; and thereupon he turned [towards Us]} (Q. 38:34).

 Adam: {Adam  disobeyed his Lord and erred} (Q. 20:121). 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

Adam(عليه السلام) was destined for Earth, as he was appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ).

So, remember, what is clear and no doubt as per 2:30 that Allah(عزّ وجلّ) announcement regarding a Viceroy ....

-----

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

-----

We can mix and match verses and come up with 72 sects if we don't follow the directives. 

The Guardianship/Wali and Obedience can't be required of the sinners, people who make errors. Rest is up to you, to rationally and logically box it for yourself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
19 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

This is essentially the traditional/classical Shi'i belief of infallibility. 

You believe in 9 Imams from the progeny of Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) from where do you get the nas for this belief? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
12 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You believe in 9 Imams from the progeny of Al-Hussein ((عليه السلام)) from where do you get the nas for this belief? 

I was referring to your comment on infallibility, saying that we are aligned on the definition.

To answer your questions, from various narrations that explicitly name them. You are probably aware of this as we have already discussed it in the past. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
20 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Have no idea what # 3 is. 

 

Familiarize yourselves with Zaidism, we can have valuable discussions. In short, the 3tra (Ahlulbayt) do not arrive at a consensus between them unless it is the hukm of Allah, i.e there are ikhtilafat in furoo3, whenever there is an ijma3 it is hujjah. For example, the ijma3 of the progeny of the Prophet (Al-3tra) that Mut'ah is haram. 

20 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Infallible in terms of NO Error, Mistakes or Sins. ?

No mistakes in terms of legislation, however, the possibility to commit a minor sin is there, as well as the possibility to procrastinate, or forget something. 

20 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Are the Imam(s) Appointed, by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) . Did Allah(عزّ وجلّ) appoint a successor for Muhammad Al- Mustafa( peace be upon him and his pure progeny). ? 

You do realize we are Shi'a right? Although it is unfortunate that twelvers have a monopoly over Shi'ism Insha'Allah in due time that will change, once the pure path of the Prophet and his progeny becomes evident. 

We believe appointment was particular and general, particular to The Prophet, Imam Ali/Hassan/Hussein, as per his نص afterwards, the Hafith of thaqalayn denotes following the sons of Fatema from the progeny of Hassan/Hussein.

This is found within the Quran, as we see a Particular designation for Musa/harun and a general one for Banu Isra'il. Insha'Allah that is clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

I was referring to your comment on infallibility, saying that we are aligned on the definition.

To answer your questions, from various narrations that explicitly name them. You are probably aware of this as we have already discussed it in the past. 

I see, I did mention Ibn Al-Junayd to be fair

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
8 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

the possibility to commit a minor sin is there

Here you mean that they could have committed minor sins but didn't, or that they did commit minor sins ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
1 minute ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Here you mean that they could have committed minor sins but didn't, or that they did commit minor sins ?

Unverifiable

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

from various narrations that explicitly name them.

 محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبي يحيى الواسطي، عن هشام بن سالم قال: كنا بالمدينة بعد وفات أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنا وصاحب الطاق والناس مجتمعون على عبد الله بن جعفر انه صاحب الامر بعد أبيه، فدخلنا عليه أنا وصاحب الطاق والناس عنده وذلك أنهم رووا عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: إن الامر في الكبير ما لم تكن به عاهة، فدخلنا عليه نسأله عما كنا نسأل عنه أباه، فسألناه عن الزكاة في كم تجب؟ فقال: في مائتين خمسة، فقلنا: ففي مائة؟ فقال: درهمان ونصف فقلنا: والله ما تقول المرجئة هذا، قال: فرفع يده إلى السماء فقال: والله ما أدري ما تقول المرجئة، قال: فخرجنا من عنده ضلالا لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه أنا وأبو جعفر الأحول، فقعدنا في بعض أزقة المدينة باكين حيارى لا ندري إلى أين نتوجه ولا من نقصد؟ ونقول: إلى المرجئة؟ إلى القدرية؟ إلى الزيدية؟ إلى المعتزلة؟

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_399


يروي الشيخ محمد بن يعقوب الكُليني ، بإسناده ، وهي قويّةٌ عندَ السيد الخوئي ، عن على بن الحكم، عن أبان قال: ((أخبرني الاحول أن زيد بن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام بعث إليه وهو مستخف قال: فأتيته فقال لي: يا أبا جعفر ما تقول ان طرقك طارق منا أتخرج معه؟ قال: فقلت له: إن كان أباك أو أخاك، خرجت معه قال: فقال لي: فأنا أريد أن أخرج أجاهد هؤلاء القوم فأخرج معي قال: قلت: لا ما أفعل جعلت فداك، قال: فقال لي: أترغب بنفسك عني؟ قال: قلت له: إنما هي نفس واحدة فإن كان لله في الأرض حجة فالمتخلف عنك ناج والخارج معك هالك وان لا تكن لله حجة في الارض فالمتخلف عنك والخارج معك سواء. قال: فقال لي: يا أبا جعفر كنت أجلس مع أبي على الخوان فيلقمني البضعة السمينة ويبرد لي اللقمة الحارة حتى تبرد، شفقة علي، ولم يشفق علي من حر النار، إذا أخبرك بالدين ولم يخبرني به؟ فقلت له: جعلت فداك شفقته عليك من حر النار لم يخبرك، خاف عليك: أن لا تقبله فتدخل النار، وأخبرني أنا، فإن قبلت نجوت، وإن لم أقبل لم يبال أن أدخل النار، ثم قلت له: جعلت فداك أنتم أفضل أم الانبياء؟ قال: بل الانبياء قلت: يقول يعقوب ليوسف: يا بني لا تقصص رؤياك على إخوتك فيكيدوا لك كيدا، لم لم يخبرهم حتى كانوا لا يكيدونه ولكن كتمهم ذلك فكذا أبوك كتمك لانه خاف عليك، قال: فقال: أما والله لئن قلت ذلك لقد حدثني صاحبك بالمدينة أني اقتل واصلب بالكناسة وأن عنده لصحيفة فيها قتلي وصلبي. فحججت فحدثت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام بمقالة زيد وما قلت له، فقال: لي: أخذته من بين يديه ومن خلفه وعن يمينه وعن شماله ومن فوق رأسه ومن تحت قدميه، ولم تترك له مسلكا يسلكه)) [أصول الكافي:1:174] .

 

وكان طائفة أتت جعفر بن محمد الصادق قبل خروج زيد فأخبروه ببيعة زيد فقال بايعوه فهو والله أفضلنا وسيدنا فعادوا وكتموا ذلك

http://lib.eshia.ir/22036/5/243

 

!!قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

Edited by Zaidism
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You do realize we are Shi'a right?

You are a Shia of either a fallible and transient Jurist of Islamic Law or a Political Leader, you may call them imams. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Bah bah. MashaAllah brother Zaidism. I pray for Yemenis all the time.

It is reported in hadith books that your flag (Ansarullah/Houthis) is the one calling people to the best of the truth.

While your resistance breaks the backs of wahhabis, it also will prevent ghulat/extremism of some shias.

May Allah grant you victory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
10 hours ago, Guest ?!* said:

[. Better not attempt to interpret the Holy verses as per your opinions. 

I never gave my opinion. I posted the verses and left it as that as they are clear enough. I don't need to add to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I never gave my opinion. I posted the verses and left it as that as they are clear enough. I don't need to add to them.

No but your intention was to prove fallibility of the prophets using them that's how you interpreted it as per your opinions. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says,

 

He is the One Who Revealed the Book unto you; from it are Decisive Verses - these are the Mother of the Book; and others are Allegorical. Then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity, so they are following what is allegorical from it, seeking the Fitna and seeking its (personal) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge. They are saying, ‘We believe in it. It is all from the Presence of our Lord’. And none (would) mention except those with the understanding [3:7]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...