Marja' higher than Prophets (as)

[shia8]

I’ve heard that some Marja' and other people believe that Marja' have a higher rank than some Prophets (عليه السلام).They say that this is  based on Ahadith from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Do you know something about This belief?

[Sirius_Bright]

Prophets are infallible, maraja's aren't. 

[Mohamad Abdel-Hamid]

Wa alaikum assalam,

I'm sure I've read or heard somewhere a hadith that went like: "The scholars of my ummah are like (or greater than) the prophets of bani Isra'eel", but I don't know its source nor its reliability. If someone can confirm.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid

[layman]

3 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Prophets are infallible, maraja's aren't. 

Salamualaikum, 

Prophets are officially protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made known his protection to the public.  Religious people may acquire protection, but Allah will not make official  announcement,  but they are protected.  Those 4 representatives of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) were protected because of their Eeman  Taqwa and loyalty.

Because there will be no more Prophets after Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and no more Imams after Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام), officially announced infallible persons by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ceased.  But that does no mean protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ceases.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can protect anyone, including ourself.

If there is no degree of acquired protection then there will no differences between Religious people.  And we cannot trust anyone at all, including our own self.  We cannot be together socially.  Religion will be doomed.

We believe that proven sincere people are protected.  Because they hold the amaanat (responsibility to uphold the Truth with their life) and in return Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives them His Protection...some level of infallibility.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them not capable to sins or make mistakes publicly.  So they becomes awliya, Imams, Allama, Marjas to group of people who want to follow them.  If they didn't hold amaanat publicly, they are dropped from the protection, unless they make Taubah (like Adam (as)).

We all need protection or certain degree of infallibility from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam.

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

fyi

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A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub:

"As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."6

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/taqlid-meaning-and-reality-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

Quote

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

[shia8]

6 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Wa alaikum assalam,

I'm sure I've read or heard somewhere a hadith that went like: "The scholars of my ummah are like (or greater than) the prophets of bani Isra'eel", but I don't know its source nor its reliability. If someone can confirm.

I searched for it and found it,but there are also other Ahadith that report the exact opposite and report,that the Imams (عليه السلام) are the Knowledgeable (scholars) and we are their students.This contradicts the other Hadith.

[Sirius_Bright]

5 hours ago, layman said:

We believe that proven sincere people are protected.  Because they hold the amaanat (responsibility to uphold the Truth with their life) and in return Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives them His Protection...some level of infallibility.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them not capable to sins or make mistakes publicly.  So they becomes awliya, Imams, Allama, Marjas to group of people who want to follow them.  If they didn't hold amaanat publicly, they are dropped from the protection, unless they make Taubah (like Adam (as)).

Let me know if you have hadith for - Allah protects them from sins and gives them some level of infallibility. 

[Abu_Zahra]

Wa alaikum as salam

No, certainly not. The status of the prophets and the imams, peace and blessings on all of them, is higher than everyone else (including scholars).

 

[Abu Nur]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:41 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

Let me know if you have hadith for - Allah protects them from sins and gives them some level of infallibility. 

What is exactly level of infallibility. The definition of infallibility is protection from all sins. If they are not protected from all sins then they are not infallible.

None of the Marja’ can fullfill the following list, thus it is impossible that they can be higher than Prophets:

Quote

What are the characteristics of the prophets and the Imams?

1. Common grounds with human beings: They may have the same language, they may come from the same nation, and they eat and drink as people do. Why is it so? Why should they have the same human characteristics? The reason is so that people would be able to follow them in their sunna, tradition, and they would not despair to strive to be like them, which would happen if they were semi-gods or gods. Another aspect to it is so people wouldn’t commit ghulūw, exaggeration, about them and call them what other faiths and traditions have called their great men for, namely “gods”.
2. Uncommon grounds:

• They have been chosen by Allah.
• They have received divine revelation.
• They are sinless and immaculate.
• They are the most perfect human beings in all fields of human life. And the highest peak of perfection is in knowledge and wisdom- why?

1. 1. Knowledge is power,
   2. To administer and manage the society,
   3. To have the right tafsīr, interpretation, of the Qur’ān,
   4. Finish off “dangerous” ideologies and discussions between the Muslims which could lead to disunity among them.
   5. So that the most knowledgeable of the people would be attracted to him and learn from him.
   6. So they could come forth with the strongest of arguments in all the different sciences and be unchallengeable in it, for always.
   7. So they could guide the society towards salvation and happiness.
   8. So no excuse would exist for the people NOT to follow them.

• They are the most courageous and brave people on the face of the earth.
• They are physically and mentally the strongest of all people.
• They are the most beautiful of people, and free from any bodily handicap.
• They have the highest eloquence in speech.
• They have the highest moral traits.
• They have ‘Ilm al Ladunni– divine knowledge from Allah, without the need of having any teachers or professors to teach them.
• They have miracles.
• They have hidden knowledge^[2], which gets divided into two divisions:

1. 1. You have complete hidden knowledge.
   2. You have a certain degree of hidden knowledge.

 

[layman]

5 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Let me know if you have hadith for - Allah protects them from sins and gives them some level of infallibility. 

Salam 

My understanding of infallibility is protection from doing sins. 

Prophets and Imams are in full protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They can commit the sins, because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has purified them, so they won't commit sins. Meaning  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them see the consequences of making a sin, so they will never commit the sin.

As far as other humans, if we do good and obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...like perform prayers, InsyaAllah 3x, we maybe protected from sins or evil deeds.  That protection is some level of infallibility, acquired protection with the help of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

And keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil… (29:45)

 

Amir al-Mu’mineen Ali ((عليه السلام).) gave special importance to the remembrance of Allah and says as follows:

“Allah the most High has created lights in the hearts of his servants, due to that shining their ears start listening and eyes start seeing and they leave enmity and mischievousness and obey His commands.”   Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 222

Imam al-Baqir ((عليه السلام).) addresses one of his friends in this way:

“Always remember Allah, because His remembrance is a hindrance between a person and unlawful deed.” Biharul Anwar, Vol. 1, p. 486

Asbagh ibn Nubata says the Amir al-Mu’mineen ((عليه السلام).) said:
“Remember Allah on two places, one at the time of distress and when you are about to commit a small sin, and to remember Allah at the time of sin is more important because His remembrance is a hindrance between the person and the sin.”

 

Meanwhile, It is apparent that there are different stages of remembering Allah, and they are never similar. Sometimes he reaches the stage that insures a person against all sins and due to this his involvement in sin naturally becomes impossible. These are people who remember Allah with a peaceful heart, awakened heart, enlightened eyes, hearing ears and obedient soul.,

 

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Absolute Infallible.  

Wallahualam...

 

[Abu Nur]

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Prophets and Imams are in full protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They can commit the sins, because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has purified them, so they won't commit sins. Meaning  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them see the consequences of making a sin, so they will never commit the sin.

It is wrong to even say that someone have particular level of infallibility because none are protected by God intention but those who God choose them as Prophets and Imams. If I have never eating Pork and I have currently no desire to eat it, I'm not infallible from this sin, because there is no absolute protection from Allah from this sin. Imams (عليه السلام) are promised and have absolute protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This means no matter what, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will always protect them. Ulema do not fall in this category, thus Ulema can not be greater than Prophets. There is no following promise for ulema:

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Guest Raynor]

Salam

Quran has forbidden humans to attribute purity to anyone rather it's God who manifests who is pure.  The leaders of Arabs before Islam were soothsayers and they use to attribute themselves purity and connection to Angels (who really were Devils who they thought were Angels).  The Quran forbid attributing purity to anyone for humans, but, rather God knows best his servants, and knows how to manifest the pure.

Ayat Tatheer can be saying, the purpose of Quran is to only attribute purity to you Ahlulbayt in the minds of people and no one else really is intended to be purified in the vision of people through it. 

This means despite Gabriel and Michael and Prophets all being pure, and Angels pure, the purpose of Quran is really not to attribute purity to Jesus and Mariam (peace be upon them) though it does but to manifest Ahlulbayt (a) are pure, because they are to be followed.

There is also another word that is synonymous with Marjaa, which is Shahr (luminary in knowledge to be turned). Lunar months were called Shahr as a parable from this world, because the moon was as if it provided illumination and so it came to be called that. In some places Shahr definitely means month in Quran for sure.

It happens to  be there is ahadith from Imam Baqir (a) that regarding the Twelve in Surah 9, it refers to the Twelve Imams (a). In this context, if we reflect, it's talking about going into extreme with respect to Prophets like Isa but really inwardly it was due to worshiping scholars and leaders not appointed by God in following them without proof and not holding them accountable for corruption.

Part of that corruption was that their scholars would take money from them and not spend it in the way of God.  The Quran in flow of this says, Indeed the Shuhr with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the day he created the heavens and earth is twelve... what does this mean in respect to previous verses and context?

It means the real luminaries that represented Moses for example, to be turned, were not priests, but Twelve Successors and Captains of the ship of salvation. Jesus' twelve luminaries with him is his predecessors including Moses.  

What does "amatan" then mean here if it's not months? It refers to generic, one Generic guide or founder like Mohammad (s), they attribute Twelve, another they delay his successor in order to put out the number made sacred by God which is Twelve Successors.

What does the four being sacred and this having to do with the upright religion, that is twelve luminaries and four of them being sacred being the upright.  According to the same hadith from Imam Baqir (a), it refers to four of the Imams (a) with the name Ali (a). The name Ali (a) is very sacred, because if we fall short, we don't believe in the reality of God's chosen ones, and if we go ahead of exalting it means we are worshiping them on par with God. This goes well with the discussion of worshiping Jesus and their scholars.

Ahlulbayt (a) are to be exalted but not Worshiped. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the intended in obedience, and we use Ahlulbayt (a) to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Quran is guaranteeing in all times, his religion will be clear in truth, and be upheld, but when we starded adding more Marjas/Shuhr, things goes haywire.

We begin to disobey God and attribute him falsehood to follow leaders not appointed by God. This is why Christians don't see Mohammad (s) who is clear in the Torah and Gospels and even books between have him in there (he is found in the Bible).

The Quran is saying there is but Twelve Marjas in reality to Mohammad (s) and it's always like that with one generic founder or another, and it's disbelief to make it twelve for example with Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s) but then think the Ahlulbayt (a) of Musa (a) doesn't have Twelve Representatives to him. It's faith to see total consistency in this number and believe in the number twelve.

There is a hadith from the Prophet (s) saying believe in the "number Twelve" and quotes this verse among others.  And in that hadith he talks about it with respect to his twelve Successors (a) and talk about Ali (a) and his Authority.

The hadith from Imam Baqir (a), he takes a great sigh before giving the explanation that "amatan" means Mohammad (s) and Twelve Shuhr is the Twelve Imams (a), and the four sacred is Ali (a). He knows people are so immersed in the propaganda and caught in the Sihr, that this will definitely fall on mostly deaf ears.

It's a warning not to take many leaders after the Prophet (s) to represent him, but rather just twelve, no more, no less. Fatima (a) was also a leader, but she didn't speak everything she knew, but  let Ali (a) lead instead. She did lead and call to Ali (a), so we are allowed calling with knowledge to God and his religion, but this is different in trying to gain followers to refer to you in all matters for enlightenment.

The position of Marjaa - Fatima (a) - withheld herself from it but called to Ali (a).

And it's right to speak and call to God and teach religion, but it's wrong for believers to say reverential follow us (raa-ina).

As for Government, is to be lead by one knowledgeable about God's religion, commands, but this doesn't mean we see him as absolute in knowledge and free from error. It means we pick who we think knows Islam best and has the most wisdom and is most fit in leading government. It also doesn't mean we don't correct him.

There is a hadith from Imam Baqir (a) "beware of leadership and marching behind men", the follower of Imam Baqir (a) says, I am aware of leadership (because Imams (a) always explain this belongs to them) but everything I learned is from marching behind men. The Imam (a) explains what he means and says "it's not as you think, I mean beware of following a person and that accepting everything he says".

We have hadiths about this issue.  

Khamanei (may God protect him) and Nasrallah (God protect him) are two great people. But so many idiots turn away from their political wisdom in the name, "we are free to do taqlid to who we want to and I follow a marjaa against their views". This is a problem Khomeini (God sanctify his secret) didn't address and also took lightly how we can know who is the most knowledgeable or even a sufficient scholar, through Quran and Sunnah, and how we can know they teach it correctly.

I believe in Islamic government to be lead by a knowledgeable person, but we've gone to far, with Marja'ya and I believe Khums hadiths - there are many taking side of what Quran says about it while we follow I believe the hadiths that contradict the Quran.   There is even a chapter that says "for the poor of the muhajareen....", and so when it was just bani-hashim and other non-sense we lie in our hadiths and know it's wrong.

I believe in spending in God's way, but Prophet (s) warned about scholars when money and religion get mixed for a reason. The Quran does the same, the Twelve Suhr is in contrast to the scholars who lead the Jews and Christians astray, just as as 5:55 has verses before and after telling us not take Christian and Jewish scholars as reliable ways of knowing the truth of Torah and Gospels or religion, and then emphasizing on the only Wilayah we have from God. 

And it's the same Ulil-Amr (a) verses, it's in contrast with Jewish and Christian scholars envying Ahlulbayt (a), but it says they have no share in the authority and how can they, and how do they deny Ahlulbayt (A) of Mohammad (s) while accepting Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim (a).

Almost everywhere Ahlulbayt (a) authority been designated some sort of contrast is done with misguiding leaders. In fact ,I'm not aware anywhere where this contrast is not done.

In Surah 33 where Ayat Tatheer is found near the end it talks about the Amana which goes back to the Ulil-Amr verses, according to hadiths, this about Wilayah of Ali (a) and so humans like the Bible explained have been oppressive in taking the Wilayah of Ali (a) for themselves. Even heavens ,earth, mountains, all refused to carry it, and feared regarding it, because it's a Wilayah only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chooses.

This why the earth doesn't talk to humans, this is why heavens don't talk to humans and attempt to guide them, this is why mountains don't talk humans, everything sees Ahlulbayt (a) and calls back to them, like Angels (a) doing Salawat on Nabi (a).

Yet we have so much supposedly pure knowledgeable leaders now right? And we suppose to refer to them rather then words of Ahlulbayt (a) because Ahlulbayt (a) not here? 

Why did Imams (a) leave ahadith, why did their followers literally get maimed and killed to pass on these hadiths, is it for us not to read but just follow Marjaas?

Semi-Taqleed while continuing to learn and take some decisions yourself through Quran and hadiths till you reach full ijtehad is the proper way. Semi-Taqleed as in group of scholars and do your best to follow truth on conjecture, but keep seeking truth and insights till no need of Taqlid

This is the proper path. Also, if you don't know something is part of God's religion, whether all Marjas agree or not, is not excuse to attribute it to God. So we can semi use them, but also must be critical and vigilant where they go wrong.

[Sumerian]

On 5/29/2021 at 6:32 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Wa alaikum assalam,

I'm sure I've read or heard somewhere a hadith that went like: "The scholars of my ummah are like (or greater than) the prophets of bani Isra'eel", but I don't know its source nor its reliability. If someone can confirm.

Not reliable and mainly comes from a Sunni chain of narrators that is even weak to them.

[layman]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:58 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is wrong to even say that someone have particular level of infallibility because none are protected by God intention but those who God choose them as Prophets and Imams. If I have never eating Pork and I have currently no desire to eat it, I'm not infallible from this sin, because there is no absolute protection from Allah from this sin. Imams (عليه السلام) are promised and have absolute protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This means no matter what, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will always protect them. Ulema do not fall in this category, thus Ulema can not be greater than Prophets. There is no following promise for ulema:

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

Salam, and sorry for long post.

We all know that Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protection are two types.  First, the type of protection that is proclaimed publicly, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bestowed to Prophets and Imams, because they carry messages from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

There are humans who received, practiced and applied those messages from the Prophet and Imams, and they will definitely acquire some level of protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) too.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) laid general rules, only sincere remembrance of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is ensured to get His Protection.  Why so difficult about it.  The Salah will prevent us from Fahsyar and Mungkar, and is that not protection? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives that protection.  Any kind of protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a certain level of infallibility. Unless we have different understanding of infallibility.

However, we can't make public statement that this person or that person is infallible (protected).  The most we can say "the person is a mukmin (because he actions show that he holding on to the truth and he does not sins publicly). I believed those 4 representatives of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) had acquired certain level of protection because of their eeman, taqwa and loyalty to Imam Hassan Askari (عليه السلام) and Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).  Otherwise, they could not be in that position. If they made sins and be dishonest, than they would not be reliable.  Are those 313 sincere followers of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) are going to be from unprotected persons? No.  They will be chosen based on set of criteria.  They have to acquire all kinds of approved traits and will receive protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

WE all know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The ONLY Absolute in term of Infallibility.

He created His Attributes and Names (made them Infallible), and  embedded them in

1. QUR'AN 

2. AHLULBAYT 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stated in Qur'an that He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protects both because of what He has embedded in both, Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

We are required or made mandatory to hold on to both, so we are guaranteed not going  astray.

"Not going astray" is level of protection.  The more sincere we are holding to both, the more guidance and protection we get.  Protection against making sins and mistakes.  One of big reasons we are holding to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, so we want to avoid making sins and mistakes in our life.

This type of protection is acquired (by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), and because it is acquired protection  therefore no one can proclaim he is infallible / protected.  In addition, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ceased that specific public endorsement.  Just, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made general statements on conditions to be protected (to a certain level), so all of us will race to hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

If a person holds on Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, then the Holy Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (we call The Light ) will be within him. That Nur is the essence of infallibility.  That Nur makes  a person to receive certain level of protect.

Otherwise, why should we hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

----------------------#

Back to the main topic, I disagreed when using infallibility as the main measure that our mukmin scholars (or let me refer them as sincere followers of Imam Mahdi (as)) as the only criteria when comparing  to the responsibilities shouldered past Prophets.

First, our Imams are in full protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  In addition, the coverage to deliver the message of religion is much much more  comparing to past Prophets.  Their responsibilities cover all Divine messages from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from Adam (عليه السلام) to Muhammad (عليه السلام).  That made our Imams higher than all past Prophets in terms of responsibilities and coverage.

Second, the Real Followers of Imams, have to absorb, practice, and spread the same messages to people in the world.  That is not a small coverage, even when we compare it to "some" past Prophets. 

Take the cases of Abu Fadhll Abbas and Zainab...were their roles small,  even as followers??? No!.  Their roles affecting us until today.  Were not both of them protected to a certain level because of their eeman  taqwa and loyalty to Imam Hussan (عليه السلام)??  However, we never say both are infallible. But both were protected because they protected Imam Hussein (عليه السلام). May Blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be with both of them.

Now come to our time, which is more challenging when comes to spreading the message of  Islam according to the real teachings of Prophet and Imams.  The person / scholar, at personal level, has to maintain his Islamic traits and at the same time to face all kinds fitnah / threats that will be thrown at him globally at an instance, 24 hours per day (none stop)

Will it not entitled to certain current scholars or leaders to climb higher in term of rank (because of coverage, responsibilities and challenges) and acquire certain level of protection because of his eeman, taqwa and loyalty to Imam (عليه السلام) when compared to past Prophets. Of cause the scholar will not say anything about himself, but his actions are for us to see.  So at least we respect these scholars, listen and support them.

Only in the hereafter,  we will know the truth.

Wallahualam.

[Guest Raynor]

Allah has provided His Prophets from the treasures of His subtlety, generosity, and mercy. He has taught them from the wealth of His knowledge, and He has singled them out for Himself from among all creation. No one from the entire creation possesses a state or character similar to theirs, for He has made them the means for all creatures to come to Him.
 
He made obedience to and love for them the cause of His contentment, and opposition to them and rejection of them a cause for His wrath. He commanded all peoples and groups to follow the religion of their Messenger, rejecting any obedience other than by means of obedience to them, praise of them, recognition of their love, respect and veneration for them, esteem for them and deference to them, and rank with Allah.
 
Therefore glorify all the prophets of Allah, and do not place them in the same position as anyone inferior to them. Do not exercise your intellect regarding their stations, states, and character unless it is by a precise clarification from Allah, and a consensus of the people who have insight into the proofs which affirm their virtues and ranks. How can you arrive at the reality of what they have from Allah? If you compare their words and actions with any of the people below them, you will be a bad companion to them; you will have disclaimed their gnosis in ignorance of their being specially selected by Allah, and you will have dropped below the level of the truths of belief and gnosis. So take care, and take care again.

 

My comment: The next chapter in that book from Imam Jaffar (a) shows Ahlulbayt (a) to be an exception to this and the most superior Ahlulbayt (a) chosen by God, but as for everyone else, the Imam (a) is clear, we can't compare normal people to God's chosen means to him.

The first Ahlulbayt (a) on earth was the Ahlulbayt of Adam (a). We can't compare Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) with normal people today.

This goes against the whole theme of Quran, that the chosen ones are of a whole different category of superiority to normal people.

[Guest Raynor]

22 hours ago, layman said:

Otherwise, why should we hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

Just as Noah (a) was means of eradicating sins and being guided back to God, so is Ahlulbayt (a) a means for us. But we can't surpass the chosen ones by God.

Also, they are with souls and help eradicate sins and build barriers, but we have to love them to see their work and be able to stop traveling to Iblis.

Every Ahlulbayt (a) of the past saved souls and were it not for them, no one can approach God save a very few. 

Ahlulbayt (a) of our time is superior, but we who are need of being saved, can't be compared to any chosen means of God.

Essential you are right, we are suppose to gain protection and being removed from all evils he saved Mohammad (s) from and his family, and we become immersed in resembling their ways, and through holding on to Quran and them, God bring us to all good he brought them in, but we never reach the speed and status of chosen Prophet by God.

Every Ahlulbayt (a) of the past, helped every other Ahlulbayt (a) to come, and Ayub (a) had his Ahlulbayt (a) and other like them (other Ahlulbayts (a)) with him. 

None of them can we reach their status. I'm sorry. This is something no Muslim accepts and has no basis in Quran, that we can reach their status.  Everything in Quran shows them to be superior to normal people and we can't reach their status.

[Abu Nur]

41 minutes ago, layman said:

Salam, and sorry for long post.

We all know that Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protection are two types.  First, the type of protection that is proclaimed publicly, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bestowed to Prophets and Imams, because they carry messages from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

There are humans who received, practiced and applied those messages from the Prophet and Imams, and they will definitely acquire some level of protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) too.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) laid general rules, only sincere remembrance of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is ensured to get His Protection.  Why so difficult about it.  The Salah will prevent us from Fahsyar and Mungkar, and is that not protection? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives that protection.  Any kind of protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a certain level of infallibility. Unless we have different understanding of infallibility.

However, we can't make public statement that this person or that person is infallible (protected).  The most we can say "the person is a mukmin (because he actions show that he holding on to the truth and he does not sins publicly). I believed those 4 representatives of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) had acquired certain level of protection because of their eeman, taqwa and loyalty to Imam Hassan Askari (عليه السلام) and Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).  Otherwise, they could not be in that position. If they made sins and be dishonest, than they would not be reliable.  Are those 313 sincere followers of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) are going to be from unprotected persons? No.  They will be chosen based on set of criteria.  They have to acquire all kinds of approved traits and will receive protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

WE all know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The ONLY Absolute in term of Infallibility.

He created His Attributes and Names (made them Infallible), and  embedded them in

1. QUR'AN 

2. AHLULBAYT 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stated in Qur'an that He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protects both because of what He has embedded in both, Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

We are required or made mandatory to hold on to both, so we are guaranteed not going  astray.

"Not going astray" is level of protection.  The more sincere we are holding to both, the more guidance and protection we get.  Protection against making sins and mistakes.  One of big reasons we are holding to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, so we want to avoid making sins and mistakes in our life.

This type of protection is acquired (by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), and because it is acquired protection  therefore no one can proclaim he is infallible / protected.  In addition, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ceased that specific public endorsement.  Just, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made general statements on conditions to be protected (to a certain level), so all of us will race to hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

If a person holds on Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, then the Holy Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (we call The Light ) will be within him. That Nur is the essence of infallibility.  That Nur makes  a person to receive certain level of protect.

Otherwise, why should we hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

----------------------#

Back to the main topic, I disagreed when using infallibility as the main measure that our mukmin scholars (or let me refer them as sincere followers of Imam Mahdi (as)) as the only criteria when comparing  to the responsibilities shouldered past Prophets.

First, our Imams are in full protection from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  In addition, the coverage to deliver the message of religion is much much more  comparing to past Prophets.  Their responsibilities cover all Divine messages from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from Adam (عليه السلام) to Muhammad (عليه السلام).  That made our Imams higher than all past Prophets in terms of responsibilities and coverage.

Second, the Real Followers of Imams, have to absorb, practice, and spread the same messages to people in the world.  That is not a small coverage, even when we compare it to "some" past Prophets. 

Take the cases of Abu Fadhll Abbas and Zainab...were their roles small,  even as followers??? No!.  Their roles affecting us until today.  Were not both of them protected to a certain level because of their eeman  taqwa and loyalty to Imam Hussan (عليه السلام)??  However, we never say both are infallible. But both were protected because they protected Imam Hussein (عليه السلام). May Blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be with both of them.

Now come to our time, which is more challenging when comes to spreading the message of  Islam according to the real teachings of Prophet and Imams.  The person / scholar, at personal level, has to maintain his Islamic traits and at the same time to face all kinds fitnah / threats that will be thrown at him globally at an instance, 24 hours per day (none stop)

Will it not entitled to certain current scholars or leaders to climb higher in term of rank (because of coverage, responsibilities and challenges) and acquire certain level of protection because of his eeman, taqwa and loyalty to Imam (عليه السلام) when compared to past Prophets. Of cause the scholar will not say anything about himself, but his actions are for us to see.  So at least we respect these scholars, listen and support them.

Only in the hereafter,  we will know the truth.

Wallahualam.

 

 

Is'mah is only related to to protection of all Sins for those creations that such a rules uphold. Sins are all the things that goes against God commands that He have defined to us. When I said absolute Infallibility, understand it exactly in the way that God protects the Prophets and Imams from all the sins. If there is a Set of all Sins that God have defined, Then the Is'mah is exactly protection from all of the elements in that set, thus it will make it an absolute protection from all the elements from that set.

No scholar can reach in this life to such a state, thus they will be always lower to Prophets. 

Quote

Take the cases of Abu Fadhll Abbas and Zainab...were their roles small,  even as followers??? No!.  Their roles affecting us until today.  Were not both of them protected to a certain level because of their eeman  taqwa and loyalty to Imam Hussan (عليه السلام)??  However, we never say both are infallible. But both were protected because they protected Imam Hussein (عليه السلام). May Blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be with both of them.

Like I told you before, if someone is not infallible, they can fall to sin, no matter who they are. Those who are infallible have reach such a position that no scholars can reach.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

People should be very careful not to fall to an exaggeration.

[layman]

4 hours ago, Guest Raynor said:

 

Just as Noah (a) was means of eradicating sins and being guided back to God, so is Ahlulbayt (a) a means for us. But we can't surpass the chosen ones by God.

Also, they are with souls and help eradicate sins and build barriers, but we have to love them to see their work and be able to stop traveling to Iblis.

Every Ahlulbayt (a) of the past saved souls and were it not for them, no one can approach God save a very few. 

Ahlulbayt (a) of our time is superior, but we who are need of being saved, can't be compared to any chosen means of God.

Essential you are right, we are suppose to gain protection and being removed from all evils he saved Mohammad (s) from and his family, and we become immersed in resembling their ways, and through holding on to Quran and them, God bring us to all good he brought them in, but we never reach the speed and status of chosen Prophet by God.

Every Ahlulbayt (a) of the past, helped every other Ahlulbayt (a) to come, and Ayub (a) had his Ahlulbayt (a) and other like them (other Ahlulbayts (a)) with him. 

None of them can we reach their status. I'm sorry. This is something no Muslim accepts and has no basis in Quran, that we can reach their status.  Everything in Quran shows them to be superior to normal people and we can't reach their status.

 

 

Salam, 

We all agreed no one can supersede Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt.  We hold on to it to be guided.  And both are protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself.

[layman]

4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Is'mah is only related to to protection of all Sins for those creations that such a rules uphold. Sins are all the things that goes against God commands that He have defined to us. When I said absolute Infallibility, understand it exactly in the way that God protects the Prophets and Imams from all the sins. If there is a Set of all Sins that God have defined, Then the Is'mah is exactly protection from all of the elements in that set, thus it will make it an absolute protection from all the elements from that set.

No scholar can reach in this life to such a state, thus they will be always lower to Prophets. 

Like I told you before, if someone is not infallible, they can fall to sin, no matter who they are. Those who are infallible have reach such a position that no scholars can reach.

Salam 

We all know the status of Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt and both are proclaimed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to be protected. 

Protection in total belongs to both two weighty things.  No misunderstanding for this part.

The purpose we are hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt is for what?  It that for guidance and protection from sins and mistakes.  Or in other words, some level of Ismah (maybe 0.00001 %, just for the sake of argument) that Prophet and Ahlulbayt already have in them.  We will never reached to the level of full protection (not Absolute because only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute in everything) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed on Ahlulbayt.

We were born sinless and Allah protected us until we spoiled our God given souls through sins.

Are we saying that we cannot return back to the level we are before (like we are baby)?  Yes, we can if clean our souls and make Taubah on daily basis.  For returning to a clean souls  we need to hold on to Qur'an wa Ahlulbayt.  

[Shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
[Shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
[Shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it,
[Shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

We need to hold to Ahlulbayt (whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has purified) for our souls to be purified by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Is purifying our souls as in Surah Shams not achievable by us? Ayat 9 says it is achievable if we acquire for it.

You have qouted 33:33, where Ahlulbayt were purified and therefore they were protected.

But, in surah Shams (7 to 10), also mentioned we are able to acquire purified souls if we work for it to the level when we are at "a baby stage (min level)" but not to the level of Ahlulbayt.  Ahlulbayt is beyond us.  

Do baby commit sins?  They cry for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mercy and help on daily basis. But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help comes through the mother.  So were the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, they cried on daily basis for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help to them is beyond description.

When we in distress mode we also return to our "baby nature"..we cry and beg Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help.

But, when grow up (no longer dependent on others), we need to learn how to cry and beg Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the way the Prophet and Ahlulbayt do it.  

Holding on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt is for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to purify and protect us from sins and mistakes...to a certain level.  Minimum level is as we are at baby stage. But, when are becoming  able body and grow up...we need to acquire higher stage of purification and protection. We need to hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.

 

وَالْعَصْرِ {1}

[Shakir 103:1] I swear by the time,

إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ {2}

[Shakir 103:2] Most surely man is in loss,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ {3}

[Shakir 103:3] Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

 

Wallahualam. 

 

[Sirius_Bright]

It's so simple. If a person is declared infallible by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is a guarantee that he will not commit any sin now or in the future. Whereas the common man and his supposed infallibility are flawed, without any guarantee of future slip-ups. 

The one designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) should be followed religiously.

[layman]

41 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

It's so simple. If a person is declared infallible by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is a guarantee that he will not commit any sin now or in the future. Whereas the common man and his supposed infallibility are flawed, without any guarantee of future slip-ups. 

The one designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) should be followed religiously.

Do you believe in this verse... .  Do you believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  is the Absolute Guarantor?

 

وَالَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا ۚ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمَعَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {69}

[Shakir 29:69] And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good.

If a person is to follow a marja who shows struggle in religion, or religious Aalim who is known for his truthfulness, taqwa, knowledge, love of Ahlulbayt..., that person is wrong... because Marja is no infallible?

[Abu Nur]

Quote

The purpose we are hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt is for what?  It that for guidance and protection from sins and mistakes.  Or in other words, some level of Ismah (maybe 0.00001 %, just for the sake of argument) that Prophet and Ahlulbayt already have in them.  We will never reached to the level of full protection (not Absolute because only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute in everything) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed on Ahlulbayt.

What is Allah protected from that He needs full protection? If we say Allah needs, that is haram. If we say Allah is protected, then that is limitation to creation attributes. Allah is the Protector and those who are protected (creations) from all sins we call them infallible, thus Ma'suum. If they are protected from all sins, we say that they have absolute protection from sins. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

Quote

If a person is to follow a marja who shows struggle in religion, or religious Aalim who is known for his truthfulness, taqwa, knowledge, love of Ahlulbayt..., that person is wrong... because Marja is no infallible?

 

He can only do taqlid and follow on jurisprudence matters, but not the others matters. While we are obligated to obey the prophets by all religion matters.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Abu Nur

[layman]

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

What is Allah protected from that He needs full protection? If we say needs, that is haram. If we say Allah is protected, then that is limitation. Allah is the Protector and those who are protected (creations) from all sins we call them infallible, thus Ma'suum. If they are protected from all sins, we say that they have absolute protection. 

We won't try to play with words.

1.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond description.

2. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Attributes and give it Holy Names.

3.  His Attribute is Absolute in Infallibility.   His is The Protector .

The rest of His Creation are not Absolute in nature when comparing them to The Creator.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The Rabb  ...Muhammad and Ahlulbayt are His Pure Slaves. Different levels.

When we compare Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to other humans, we say they are fully protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I disagreed with you on the word Absolute.

[layman]

16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

He can only do taqlid and follow on jurisprudence matters, but not the others matters. While prophets are be obligated to be followed by all religion matters.

The above fact is known.  So you agreed that Marja has some level of Protection or otherwise they cannot be followed for the jurisprudence matters, especially when they make ijtihad?

[Abu Nur]

13 minutes ago, layman said:

We won't try to play with words.

1.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond description.

2. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Attributes and give it Holy Names.

3.  His Attribute is Absolute in Infallibility.   His is The Protector .

The rest of His Creation are not Absolute in nature when comparing them to The Creator.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The Rabb  ...Muhammad and Ahlulbayt are His Pure Slaves. Different levels.

When we compare Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to other humans, we say they are fully protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I disagreed with you on the word Absolute.

It is really not playing with words. It seem that you have hard to understand because I use word "Absolute" that you seem automatically implying to God and His Essence. Absolute = Total. Total protection from sins = 'Ismah. Imams and Prophets are totally protected by God from all sins, thus absolute protection given by God. 

Quote

2. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Attributes and give it Holy Names.

How this is even possible? God created His Mercifulness?

Quote

The rest of His Creation are not Absolute in nature when comparing them to The Creator.

We are not talking about nature, we are talking about God given protection to His creation.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Sirius_Bright]

1 hour ago, layman said:

Do you believe in this verse... .  Do you believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  is the Absolute Guarantor?

 

وَالَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا ۚ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمَعَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {69}

[Shakir 29:69] And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good.

If a person is to follow a marja who shows struggle in religion, or religious Aalim who is known for his truthfulness, taqwa, knowledge, love of Ahlulbayt..., that person is wrong... because Marja is no infallible?

We follow Marja in his knowledge of fiqh just as we follow the doctor for his knowledge of medicine. All this while believing they can make mistakes. 

Since Ahlulbayt's (عليهم اسلام) infallibility is designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself, there's no room for doubt or mistakes. 

I'm asking again, if you have any hadith indicating infallibility of common people, please present to us.

[layman]

7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is really not playing with words. It seem that you have hard to understand because I use word "Absolute" that you seem automatically implying to God and His Essence. Absolute = Total. Total protection from sins = 'Ismah. Imams and Prophets are totally protected by God from all sins, thus absolute protection given by God. 

How this is even possible? God created His Mercifulness?

We are not talking about nature, we are talking about God given protection to His creation.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Attributes and Names. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will act Merciful to all of us.  His Name is the Most Merciful.

Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not know to us.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Attributes and Names so we can know Him and address Him.  His created Attributes and Names, they are Pure/Holy... since they are created and therefore they are not Him.

The Absoluteness applies to His Created Attributes so we can understand.  But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Akbar...  AllahuAkbar..because He is beyond description.

We can come to command understanding that Rasulullah and Imams are Protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly.

Can other humans (who show struggle) achieve to some level of protection?.  This is the subject of discussion.  Which i say, yes if they sincerely follow Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.  Can we agreed on this issue.

[Abu Nur]

Quote

Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not know to us.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Attributes and Names so we can know Him and address Him.  His created Attributes and Names, they are Pure/Holy... since they are created and therefore they are not Him.

His attributes are identical to His Essence! He did not create His attributes. As for the name, that is creation yes.

Quote

Can other humans (who show struggle) achieve to some level of protection?.  This is the subject of discussion.  Which i say, yes if they sincerely follow Qur'an and Ahlulbayt.  Can we agreed on this issue.

They can yes, but because they don't have fully protection, they could fall to the sins that they are protected. How? Because they could do acts that removes them from those protection. As for those infallible people, they can do no such a act.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Abu Nur

[layman]

10 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

We follow Marja in his knowledge of fiqh just as we follow the doctor for his knowledge of medicine. All this while believing they can make mistakes. 

Since Ahlulbayt's (عليهم اسلام) infallibility is designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself, there's no room for doubt or mistakes. 

I'm asking again, if you have any hadith indicating infallibility of common people, please present to us.

Salam,

I told everyone that infallibility is protection.   

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is All Merciful... can human be merciful to a certain level.  Yes, we can but not to the level of All Merciful.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Absolute in term of Infallibility.  Ahlulbayt are full in Infallibility (we called them maksum, fully protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) as compared to other humans.

Can other humans (who show struggle) get or acquire some level of Protection or infallibility? Not full, but based on their struggle to serve Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by holding to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt?

I believe they can and that are the reasons we trusted the 4 representatives of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) and some Marjas.  If they are not protected, i would not trust them at all.  We read doa iftitah that was transmitted through one of Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام) representatives to us to read.  We accept because we believe His Representatives are protected to a certain level.

Where do we draw the line?  Unless the Marjas make sins that people know, then we know he cannot be trusted.  His Protection goes to nothing.

I have given you the verse of Quran, and i asked you whether you agreed with it.  I even qouted quran and hadiths to you earlier about this issue.  Did you read.  Tell me of your understanding?  You may disagree.  Let hear from you.

[layman]

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

They can yes, but because they don't have 'Ismah, they could fall to the sins that they are protected. 

What do we call "Protection" then?  Can you define maksuum as in general term?  Because I understand the maksuum as for Ahlulbayt.

[786:)]

Not shocking at all that we have this thread. Prophets are just a trampoline for mainstream Shias these days.

[layman]

25 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

His attributes are identical to His Essence! He did not create His attributes. As for the name, that is creation yes.

 

 

Salam...

Correct me if i am wrong in my understanding.  Because the hadith was translation.

 

H 311, Ch. 16, h7
Muhammad ibn abu ‘Abd Allah in a marfu‘ manner, has narrated from abu
Hashim al-Ja’fari who said the following:
“Once I was in the company of abu Ja’far al-Thani, the 2nd,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, when a person asked him,
‘The names and attributes of the Lord, the Most Holy, the Most High, mentioned in His book (the Holy Quran) are they He Himself?’

.....

“Allah existed but there were no creatures. He created names and attributes as a means between His Own Self and the creatures. Through these means they pray to Him and ask Him for help, and names are the means to speak of Him. Allah
existed without being mentioned. The One mentioned through names is Allah the eternal , Who will be there eternally. Names and attributes are created and their meaning and what they indicate is Allah, Who is by far above plurality and combination, which happens only to the moving things. If you say that Allah
is compiled it is a false statement and so is saying that He is a great deal or very little. He His Own Self is eternal . What is other than the Only One, it is divisible. Allah is not divisible. Not even in one’s imaginations can be thought of as more or
less. Everything divisible or being thought of as less or more, in one’s imagination, is created. All created things are signs of the existence of the Creator.

[Abu Nur]

15 minutes ago, layman said:

What do we call "Protection" then?  Can you define maksuum as in general term?  Because I understand the maksuum as for Ahlulbayt.

'Innamā Yurīdu Allāhu is God Intends that is Going to happen no matter what. When that is attached to Protection and purification, it means that God is going to protect such a individual from all sins. If God intends to protect them from all sins, then there is no chance that they will sin, because then it will contradict God command. Thus the whole Ma'sum become absolute of protection from all sins By God intention.

As for rest of us, there is no such a guarantee. This means that we can only hold a temporary limited protection but then it is possible that it can be removed because of our actions that goes against Him. As for Imams (عليه السلام) and Prophets, they can not do such a actions, because God is protecting them fully.