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In the Name of God بسم الله

No Medium between Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) and His servants

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The reason why it is wrong is because it goes against the following verses:

And [He revealed] that the masjids are for Allah, so do not invoke with Allah anyone. Quran 72:19

Say, [O Muhammad], "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in [creation of] the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this or a [remaining] trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful."

Salam,

When i read 72:19...

It is talking about masjids.  And masjids are designated  place of worship.

A worship is to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  A masjid is a place of worship, meaning a place to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

We cannot put partner to Allah when we glorify Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Everyone is very clear about this matter that we can only glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone.  No partner.

 

The issue when call upon Imams NOT for the purpose of worship, but  asking them to intercede on our behalf.  So our needs are presented to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through them (because we believe they are alive and they are Ulil-Amr).

There are people who define that call upon Imams (who are not physically presence) to intercede as a DOA.  And a doa is a form of worship.  And worship is only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone.  Therefore, calling upon Imams to intercede is shirk!

My personal belief, a call is a doa when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names are mentioned.  When we call upon...Ya Rasulullah is not a doa. Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names are not invoked.

Many asking Imams to intercede on their behalf so their business or hajat are fulfilled by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Asking Imams to intercede is not to glorify / worship Imams.  There is not partnership made to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), just as mean to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  If our hajats are fulfilled, we will instead say Alhamdulillah...we glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not Imams.  We increase our salawats to them.

The real issues, the ways I see it, is communication with Imams.  Some believe that muslims are cut off from Ulil-Amr because they were already dead.  If Imams are physically infront of us  then asking Imams to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is acceptable.

Not all Shias believe we are cut off from Imams.  Believe in Unseen (also means connection to unseen) is a part of our belief as a Mutaqqi person (early verses of Surah alBaqarah).  Tawassul or intercession is an unseen link to Imams.  And Tawassul is allowed in Qur'an with permission from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Doa is unseen link directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by invoking His Holy Names. And Doa using Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names is a worship.

Wallahualam. 

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It is talking about masjids.  And masjids are designated  place of worship.

Do you think it make any sense that in Masjid invoke Allah only, and then outside of Masjid invoke others beside Allah? The verse is so clear where it imply that Invoking is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is an universal statement.

Your interpretation is very strange.

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56 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

Intercession is in the Quran 

This following is Sahih narration of the definition of tawassul. Try to find me a sahih narration that accept your version of tawassul:

إِنَّ أَفْضَلَ مَا تَوَسَّلَ بِهِ الْمُتَوَسِّلُونَ إِلَى اللهِ سُبْحَانَهُ: الاْيمَانُ بِهِ وَبِرَسُولِهِ، وَالْجِهادُ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَإِنَّهُ ذِرْوَةُ الاْسْلاَمِ، وَكَلِمَةُ الاْخْلاَصِ فَإِنَّهَا الْفِطْرَةُ، وَإِقَامُ الْصَّلاَةِ فَإِنَّهَا الْمِلَّةُ، وَإِيتَاهُ الزَّكَاةِ فَإِنَّهَا فَرِيضَةٌ وَاجِبَةٌ، وَصَوْمُ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ فَإِنَّهُ جُنَّةٌ مِنَ الْعِقَاب، وَحَجُّ الْبَيْتِ وَاعْتِمارُهُ فَإِنَّهُمَا يَنْفِيَانِ الْفَقْرَ وَيَرْحَضَانِ الذَّنْبَ، وَصِلَةُ الرَّحِمِ فَإِنَّهَا مَثْرَاةٌ فِي الْمَالِ وَمَنْسَأَةٌ في الاْجَلِ، وَصَدَقَةُ السِّرِّ فَإِنَّهَا تُكَفِّرُ الْخَطِيئَةَ، وَصَدَقَةُ الْعَلاَنِيَةِ فَإِنَّهَا تَدْفَعُ مِيتَةَ السُّوءِ، وَصَنَائِعُ الْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنَّهَا تَقِي مَصَارعَ الْهَوَانِ.

The best means by which seekers of nearness [mutawassilun] to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness [tawassul], is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu’l-‘ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka’bah) and its ‘umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Kitāb al-Zuhd by al-Ḥusayn b. Saʿeed, pg 13
Al-Maḥāsin, vol 1, pg 289
Man lā yaḥḍuruh al-faqīh, vol 1, pg 205
ʿIlal al-Sharāiʿ, vol 1, pg 247
Tuḥaf al-ʿUqūl, pg 149
Nahjul al-Balāgha, vol 1, pg 215; Sermon 113
Al-Amālī by Shaykh al-Ṭūsī, pg 216

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

What I'm trying to say is that one form of intercession is wrong. The following is the wrong one:

O Abu’l-Hasan!
O commander of the Believers!
O `Ali, son of Abu-Talib!
O Allah’s Argument against His creatures!
O our master and chief!
We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession
and your advocacy for us before Allah;
and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.
O well-esteemed with Allah,
intercede for us before Allah.

:salam:

:bismillah:

وَبَيْنَهُمَا حِجَابٌ ۚ وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ ۚ وَنَادَوْا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ أَنْ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ لَمْ يَدْخُلُوهَا وَهُمْ يَطْمَعُونَ {46}

[Shakir 7:46] And between the two there shall be a veil, and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks, and they shall call out to the dwellers of the garden: Peace be on you; they shall not have yet entered it, though they hope

وَإِذَا صُرِفَتْ أَبْصَارُهُمْ تِلْقَاءَ أَصْحَابِ النَّارِ قَالُوا رَبَّنَا لَا تَجْعَلْنَا مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ {47}

[Shakir 7:47] And when their eyes shall be turned towards the inmates of the fire, they shall say: Our Lord! place us not with the unjust

وَنَادَىٰ أَصْحَابُ الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالًا يَعْرِفُونَهُمْ بِسِيمَاهُمْ قَالُوا مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْكُمْ جَمْعُكُمْ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ {48}

[Shakir 7:48] And the dwellers of the most elevated places shall ca!l out to men whom they will recognize by their marks saying: Of no avail were to you your amassings and your behaving haughtily:

أَهَٰؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ أَقْسَمْتُمْ لَا يَنَالُهُمُ اللَّهُ بِرَحْمَةٍ ۚ ادْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ لَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَا أَنْتُمْ تَحْزَنُونَ {49}

[Shakir 7:49] Are these they about whom you swore that Allah will not bestow mercy on them? Enter the garden; you shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve

Nothing is needed to say now, just quoting few words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام):

1) I am the ‘Yasoub’ (leader) of the Momineen, and I am the first of the preceding ones, and Caliph of Rasool of the Lord of the Worlds, and I am the Divider of the Paradise and the Fire, and I am the Master of the Heights

2) Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic And upon the heights would be men recognising all by their marks [7:46]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘We are those men. The Imam from us recognise the ones who will enter the Fire, and the ones who will enter the Paradise, just as you recognise in your tribes, the men from among you, recognising the ones from it from the righteous or evil.

3. I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about this Verse And upon the heights would be men recognising all by their marks [7:46]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Sa’ad, the Progeny of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will not let anyone enter the Paradise except the one who recognises them and they recognise him, nor will they let anyone enter the Fire except the one who has denied them, and they denied him, and the ‘Heights’. Allahazwj cannot be Recognised, except by the way of their recognition.

4. Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘What you saying regarding And the companions of the heights [7:48]?’ So I said, ‘They are not except either Momineen or Kafireen (unbelievers). If they enter the Paradise, so they are Momineen, and if they enter the Fire, so they are Kafireen (unbelievers). 

So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘By Allahazwj! They are neither Momineen nor Kafireen, and had they been Momineen they would have entered the Paradise just as the Momineen would enter it, and had they been Kafireen (unbelievers) they would have entered the Fire just as the Kafireen (unbelievers) would enter. But, they are a people whose good and evil deeds are equal, so the deeds are deficient with them, and they are just as Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says’.  

So I said, ‘Are they from the inhabitants of the Paradise or from the inhabitants of the Fire?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Leave them where Allahazwj has left them’. I said, ‘So shall I postpone them?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Yes, postpone them just as Allahazwj has Postponed them. If Heazwj so Desires to Heazwj would Enter them into the Paradise by Hisazwj Mercy, and if Heazwj so Desires to Heazwj would Usher them to the Fire due to their sins, and Heazwj would not be unjust to them’.  

So I said, ‘Would a Kafir enter the Paradise?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘No’. I said, ‘Would anyone enter the Fire except for a Kafir?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘No. except if Allahazwj so Desires. O Zurara! I am saying: ‘Whatever Allahazwj so Desires’, and you are not saying, ‘Whatever Allahazwj so Desires’. But, you, when you get older, would retract, and your knots would be loosened from you’.

20 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ?

I think you really need to review your understanding of "besides Allah" (من دون الله) 

The status of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can be understood from the following verses:

وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى 

8:17

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ

48:10

If these are not sufficient, please bring in the verses which prohibits calling upon the hands of Allah besides Allah and mentioning such act as shirk

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

5:55

Ali (عليه السلام) is my wali, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is my wali and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is my Wali. Is this trinity? 

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12 minutes ago, Cool said:

:salam:

:bismillah:

وَبَيْنَهُمَا حِجَابٌ ۚ وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ ۚ وَنَادَوْا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ أَنْ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ لَمْ يَدْخُلُوهَا وَهُمْ يَطْمَعُونَ {46}

[Shakir 7:46] And between the two there shall be a veil, and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks, and they shall call out to the dwellers of the garden: Peace be on you; they shall not have yet entered it, though they hope

وَإِذَا صُرِفَتْ أَبْصَارُهُمْ تِلْقَاءَ أَصْحَابِ النَّارِ قَالُوا رَبَّنَا لَا تَجْعَلْنَا مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ {47}

[Shakir 7:47] And when their eyes shall be turned towards the inmates of the fire, they shall say: Our Lord! place us not with the unjust

وَنَادَىٰ أَصْحَابُ الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالًا يَعْرِفُونَهُمْ بِسِيمَاهُمْ قَالُوا مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْكُمْ جَمْعُكُمْ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ {48}

[Shakir 7:48] And the dwellers of the most elevated places shall ca!l out to men whom they will recognize by their marks saying: Of no avail were to you your amassings and your behaving haughtily:

أَهَٰؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ أَقْسَمْتُمْ لَا يَنَالُهُمُ اللَّهُ بِرَحْمَةٍ ۚ ادْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ لَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَا أَنْتُمْ تَحْزَنُونَ {49}

[Shakir 7:49] Are these they about whom you swore that Allah will not bestow mercy on them? Enter the garden; you shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve

Nothing is needed to say now, just quoting few words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام):

1) I am the ‘Yasoub’ (leader) of the Momineen, and I am the first of the preceding ones, and Caliph of Rasool of the Lord of the Worlds, and I am the Divider of the Paradise and the Fire, and I am the Master of the Heights

2) Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic And upon the heights would be men recognising all by their marks [7:46]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘We are those men. The Imam from us recognise the ones who will enter the Fire, and the ones who will enter the Paradise, just as you recognise in your tribes, the men from among you, recognising the ones from it from the righteous or evil.

3. I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about this Verse And upon the heights would be men recognising all by their marks [7:46]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Sa’ad, the Progeny of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will not let anyone enter the Paradise except the one who recognises them and they recognise him, nor will they let anyone enter the Fire except the one who has denied them, and they denied him, and the ‘Heights’. Allahazwj cannot be Recognised, except by the way of their recognition.

4. Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘What you saying regarding And the companions of the heights [7:48]?’ So I said, ‘They are not except either Momineen or Kafireen (unbelievers). If they enter the Paradise, so they are Momineen, and if they enter the Fire, so they are Kafireen (unbelievers). 

So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘By Allahazwj! They are neither Momineen nor Kafireen, and had they been Momineen they would have entered the Paradise just as the Momineen would enter it, and had they been Kafireen (unbelievers) they would have entered the Fire just as the Kafireen (unbelievers) would enter. But, they are a people whose good and evil deeds are equal, so the deeds are deficient with them, and they are just as Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says’.  

So I said, ‘Are they from the inhabitants of the Paradise or from the inhabitants of the Fire?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Leave them where Allahazwj has left them’. I said, ‘So shall I postpone them?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Yes, postpone them just as Allahazwj has Postponed them. If Heazwj so Desires to Heazwj would Enter them into the Paradise by Hisazwj Mercy, and if Heazwj so Desires to Heazwj would Usher them to the Fire due to their sins, and Heazwj would not be unjust to them’.  

So I said, ‘Would a Kafir enter the Paradise?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘No’. I said, ‘Would anyone enter the Fire except for a Kafir?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘No. except if Allahazwj so Desires. O Zurara! I am saying: ‘Whatever Allahazwj so Desires’, and you are not saying, ‘Whatever Allahazwj so Desires’. But, you, when you get older, would retract, and your knots would be loosened from you’.

This is about the day of Judgement, it is about shafa'ah, no one deny it.

Edited by Abu Nur
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The status of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can be understood from the following verses:

These verses have nothing to do with tawassul nor they have to do anything with invoking. 

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5 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

These verses have nothing to do with tawassul nor they have to do anything with invoking

Neither have I discussed Shifa'ah nor tawassul. I have just tried to correct your understanding of "besides Allah" دون الله.

You call Him with the best names "asma ul husna". Prophet & Imams are the asma ul husna according to few ahadith. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

This is about the day of Judgement, it is about shafa'ah, no one deny it.

فَهَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ بَغْتَةً ۖ فَقَدْ جَاءَ أَشْرَاطُهَا ۚ فَأَنَّىٰ لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ {18}

[Shakir 47:18] Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?

Whether you call someone from the جنود of Allah or not, some of Allah's forces will introduce themselves in these words:

نَحْنُ أَوْلِيَاؤُكُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ ۖ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَشْتَهِي أَنْفُسُكُمْ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَدَّعُونَ {31}

[Shakir 41:31] We are your guardians in this world's life and in the hereafter, and you shall have therein what your souls desire and you shall have therein what you ask for:
[Pickthal 41:31] We are your protecting friends in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. There ye will have (all) that your souls desire, and there ye will have (all) for which ye pray.
[Yusufali 41:31] "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-

 

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Neither have I discussed Shifa'ah nor tawassul. I have just tried to correct your understanding of "besides Allah" دون الله.

I'm very tired to go with the nonsense semantic play about most simplistic word that does not need any further understanding.

Quote

You call Him with the best names "asma ul husna". Prophet & Imams are the asma ul husna according to few ahadith. 

You take it very literal approach to think you can call Imams. If the Prophet say that he is the asma ul husna, take it to mean that Prophet as an Messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) represent Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) message and the one with best of characters.

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6 minutes ago, Cool said:

فَهَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ بَغْتَةً ۖ فَقَدْ جَاءَ أَشْرَاطُهَا ۚ فَأَنَّىٰ لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ {18}

[Shakir 47:18] Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?

Whether you call someone from the جنود of Allah or not, some of Allah's forces will introduce themselves in these words:

نَحْنُ أَوْلِيَاؤُكُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ ۖ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَشْتَهِي أَنْفُسُكُمْ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَدَّعُونَ {31}

[Shakir 41:31] We are your guardians in this world's life and in the hereafter, and you shall have therein what your souls desire and you shall have therein what you ask for:
[Pickthal 41:31] We are your protecting friends in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. There ye will have (all) that your souls desire, and there ye will have (all) for which ye pray.
[Yusufali 41:31] "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-

 

I don't see any relevant of these verses to try to justify invoking others beside Allah.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

I'm very tired to go with the nonsense semantic play about most simplistic word that does not need any further understanding.

I thought the same when I saw this thread which is indeed a nonsense of yours, repeated/discussed millions of times by many shiachat members. 

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You take it very literal approach to think you can call Imams. If the Prophet say that he is the asma ul husna, take it to mean that Prophet as an Messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) represent Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) message and the one with best of characters

Not only represents message of Allah. They are representing Allah with full authority. Otherwise the verses of Anfal & Fatha quoted above would be meaningless. 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Not only represents message of Allah. They are representing Allah with full authority. Otherwise the verses of Anfal & Fatha quoted above would be meaningless. 

[I have no duty] except to transmit from Allah, and [to communicate] His messages; 72:23

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

don't see any relevant of these verses to try to justify invoking others beside Allah.

:D again missed my point. 

The verse quoted for your realization that for us, qayamah is going on. It is not something which will come to us, it is an ongoing process. 

What else, we have been taught the ta'veel of the verses of Al-A'raaf, we now know who those "rajul" are. Our helpers, our intercessors. And they are not the ones whom we terms as "besides Allah". They are the choosen ones, guided ones, the authorized ones by Allah Himself. That alone is sufficient.

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

:D again missed my point. 

The verse quoted for your realization that for us, qayamah is going on. It is not something which will come to us, it is an ongoing process. 

What else, we have been taught the ta'veel of the verses of Al-A'raaf, we now know who those "rajul" are. Our helpers, our intercessors. And they are not the ones whom we terms as "besides Allah". They are the choosen ones, guided ones, the authorized ones by Allah Himself. That alone is sufficient.

Al-A'raaf have nothing to do with this subject. This is the typical nonsense of quoting unrelevant verses to try to justify something that have nothing to do with the context. Tawassul (NOT Shafa'ah) have never had to do with calling any of the Imams in supplication. Tawassul and its original meaning have to do with seeking nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by observing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commandments.

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4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

[I have no duty] except to transmit from Allah, and [to communicate] His messages; 72:23

62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who (1) recites to them His communications and (2) purifies them, and (3) teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

Seems like you are pointing out the contradiction in duties assigned to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Al-A'raaf have nothing to do with this subject. This is the typical nonsense of quoting unrelevant verses to try to justify something that have nothing to do with the context.

Actually you are not even ready to accept the truth. For us Imams are "wajhullah". They are not Allah but you cannot say them the ones "besides Allah". 

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Just now, Cool said:

62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who (1) recites to them His communications and (2) purifies them, and (3) teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

Seems like you are pointing out the contradiction in duties assigned to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

It seems like you as usual wrongly assume things about me. There is no contradiction between 62:2 and 72:23

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Just now, Cool said:

Actually you are not even ready to accept the truth. For us Imams are "wajhullah". They are not Allah but you cannot say them the ones "besides Allah". 

I stop here. Further discussion take us no where. This is going again out of the subject. 

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

Actually you are not even ready to accept the truth. For us Imams are "wajhullah". They are not Allah but you cannot say them the ones "besides Allah". 

 

Salam 

Just to add 

[Yusufali 3:103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you).

We are asked to hold on to the Rope, and that rope will bring us straight to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The Rope is not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not "besides Allah".

The issues now how we see the Rope and how to hold on.

Group 1:  Rope of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are dead.  What ever left are written in Books.  Those books are remnants of the Rope.  The focus is through physical means, read books and try to understand it and try to reach Allahswt through it. If we don't see through physical means it is likely that it doesn't exist .  Prophet is dead, the connection to him doesn't exist.  Spiritual world (unseen from physical eyes), is new invented things.

Group 2:  Rope of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are alive and kicking.  The nature of the Rope is physical and spiritual.  Physically, the Rope passed away, but Spiritually is alive. Spiritually, Nubuwwah and Imamah are part of us, whether we accept or not.  These two never disappear because they are the Rope that we must hold on to it physically and spiritually.

 

Our communication to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is from physical to spiritual (the heart is spiritual in nature)....then only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is neither physical nor spiritual.  He is beyond description. 

The purpose of spiritual communication is to ensure that our connection to the Rope/Walis/Prophet/Imams are not cut off because in physical world, we are bound by time factor.  We do not live when Prophet was physically on the earth.  The Rope or Wajhullah (spiritually) will guide us on how to glorify and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) above and beyond what have been written in the books.  

 

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Do you think it make any sense that in Masjid invoke Allah only, and then outside of Masjid invoke others beside Allah? The verse is so clear where it imply that Invoking is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is an universal statement.

Your interpretation is very strange.

Brother,

In the context of that ayat, masjid is a place of worship to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  So the main focus is to perform worship while in a respected place that we are in.

We don’t enter a place of worship for other businesses except to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  We don't stand infront of Kaabah other than to worship Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The procedures must be followed when you are in masjid.

I am not saying that we don't invoke Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) outside the masjid.  I never say so. Please don't misinterpret my statement.

When we are studying in the class, doing computer programming  dealing business... our focus is mixed.  We just set the intention to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and go on with our activities.  No prescribed procedures as compare to the masjid.

Another issue that I would like to highlight is the purpose of tawassul or spiritual connection to Imams.

We make salah to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or worshipping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  We will read and follow the prescribed procedures. How to perfect our salah (increase the effectiveness our worship to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) to the level as the Prophet and Imams doing it (at least to smallest extend).  This knowledge is not written in the books.  We can only know through spiritual connection to Imams.  This is the real purpose of tawassul, so we can worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as what the Ulil Amr will do during worship.  They need to teach us that knowledge.  And we must believe they are alive and spiritually guide us to better our endeavor in glorifying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Another issue:

Many people ask for tawassul through Imams, some will get and majority won't.  Why?  It is all about the procedures.  For example, if we want to ask Imam to pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so we pass an examination, we must declare and dedicate our study because of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and our success of the study is to serve Imam.  Then asking Imam to pray for our success is valid.  End of the day, our study is for Imam in serving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Asking Imams blindly is problematic. Unless we make a promise that if we are helped, we are to perform activities for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...give charity to build masjid, feed needy people, fast for few months...

Asking help from Imams on how to better ourselves in glorifying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is highly desirable.  Because Imams are Rope of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and the Siratul Mustaqeem.

Wallahualam...

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Accordingly, he would be held back from supplication and would not succeed in making it. And even if the need presses him to pray to Allah, He, the Exalted, would withhold his prayer from ascending and hence he would not find any response.

Imam ‘Ali (‘a) says: “Sin hinders response (ijabah).”

A man once asked Imam ‘Ali (‘a) about the verse “Call Me, I will answer you” saying, “What has happened to us, we pray but we are not answered.” He (‘a) replied, “Which of your prayers do you expect to be answered when you have closed its doors and ways. So be wary of Allah and reform your deeds, and purify your hearts, bid the good and forbid the wrong, thus Allah will answer your prayers.”22

Imam ‘Ali bin al-Husayn Zayn al-’Abidin (‘a) is narrated to have said, “And the sin which causes prayer to be rejected and the skies to turn dark is disobedience (‘uquq) to the parents.”23

According to another tradition, “The sins that lead to the rejection of prayer are bad intention, impure heart, hypocrisy, despairing of the response from Allah, delaying the obligatory prayers until the lapse of their {prescribed} time, to neglect attaining proximity to Allah through good deeds and charity, and employing foul and obscene language.”24

Imam al-Baqir (‘a) says: “It so happens that a person asks Allah for a need and it is in His power to grant him his need in the near future. But the person commits a sin, so Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, says to the angel, ‘Do not grant his need and deprive him of it, for he has become the subject of My wrath and deserves to be deprived from Me.’”25

https://www.al-islam.org/supplication-in-the-eyes-of-ahlalbayt-muhammad-mahdi-al-asifi/obstacles-and-hindrances#sins-withhold-prayer

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@Abu Nur you have presented the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). I think further circular discussions are only a waste of time.

Those who accept the words and teachings of the Imam will follow them inshaAllah.

Those who choose to invent their own practices will continue to do so.

We have had this discussion many times, and the conclusion has always been the above. 

 

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As salamu alaikum, 

Tawassul has different forms. If we are disputing if it’s okay to say Ya Ali Madad for example (with the niyyah of gaining Allah’s aid through right of Amir al-mumineen) then what about tabaruk? Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools believe it’s okay to ask for Allah’s assistance thru the awliya, imams, prophets and angels. Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools and u orthodox sunni schools such as the Salafi agree that tabaruk is valid such as gaining blessings from Allah thru the shirt of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Ahmad ibn Hanbal of the Sunnis was buried with hairs of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) placed on his eyes. Many Shia make sujud on turbah from Karbala for tabaruk. 
 

Even those weird Deobandis accept making tawassul ‘by right’ of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
 

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Quote

 presented the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

To use a Word/Verse/Tradition and say You don't believe. Is very very disturbing.  Lack of Conceptual understanding and literal out of context, cherry picking while ignoring the other evidence- warfare. This kind of warfare are the tactics of the Innovators who follow the two so-called jurists. 

-----

"Tawassul to the beloved ones of Allah is a matter which is in vogue amongst the Muslims of the world and from the day the Islamic Shari’ah was conveyed through the Holy Prophet (S) its legality was also declared by the way of Islamic traditions.

It was only in the 8th century A.H. that tawassul was rejected by Ibn Taymiyyah and two centuries later Muhammad ibn ’Abd Al-Wahhab intensified this objection. Tawassul was introduced to be unlawful and heresy and occasionally was labelled as worshipping the awliya’ and it is needless to mention that worshipping other than God amounts to polytheism and is forbidden."

https://www.al-islam.org/wahhabism-2nd-edition-revised-edited-and-annotated-jafar-subhani/7-tawassul-recourse-awliya-allah

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

As salamu alaikum, 

Tawassul has different forms. If we are disputing if it’s okay to say Ya Ali Madad for example (with the niyyah of gaining Allah’s aid through right of Amir al-mumineen) then what about tabaruk? Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools believe it’s okay to ask for Allah’s assistance thru the awliya, imams, prophets and angels. Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools and u orthodox sunni schools such as the Salafi agree that tabaruk is valid such as gaining blessings from Allah thru the shirt of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Ahmad ibn Hanbal of the Sunnis was buried with hairs of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) placed on his eyes. Many Shia make sujud on turbah from Karbala for tabaruk. 
 

Even those weird Deobandis accept making tawassul ‘by right’ of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
 

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

I have presented clearly the definition of Tawassul by our own Imam Ali (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) words and it is an authentic narration. I have also presented that in Du'a we can only and only address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without turning to anyone in the dua. I also have presented that saying 'by right’ of the Nabi' is also sunnah and correct. Because in such a form we only address God.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Guest Psychological warfare said:

This is Not a child's play.  So Don't show your ignorance by confusing Intercession, Tawassual and Istigatha. or dua/supplication/Invoke/call . 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235049482-tawassul-and-istigatha/?&page=3#comments

 

I have clearly presented what is the concern here. I did not brought or mixed anything about Istigatha, Shafa'ah, Barakah. The others clearly did. 

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6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I have clearly presented what is the concern here. I did not brought or mixed anything about Istigatha, Shafa'ah, Barakah. The others clearly did. 

A) Clearly articulate your exact concern.

1) Interssion

2) Tawasul

3) Istaghasa

B) Why does this issue that you have, (ex 1 or 2 or 3 ) bother you, what others do is their business. 

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12 minutes ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

A) Clearly articulate your exact concern.

1) Interssion

2) Tawasul

3) Istaghasa

B) Why does this issue that you have, (ex 1 or 2 or 3 ) bother you, what others do is their business. 

Re-read the whole thread again. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

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1 hour ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

B) Why does this issue that you have, (ex 1 or 2 or 3 ) bother you, what others do is their business. 

Sure, people can follow what they like. What the brother presented are the guidelines of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

Nobody is forced to follow these guidelines, its a matter of where you wish to take your religion from.

Jazakallah brother @Abu Nur

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9 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

As salamu alaikum, 

Tawassul has different forms. If we are disputing if it’s okay to say Ya Ali Madad for example (with the niyyah of gaining Allah’s aid through right of Amir al-mumineen) then what about tabaruk? Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools believe it’s okay to ask for Allah’s assistance thru the awliya, imams, prophets and angels. Both Shia and orthodox sunni schools and u orthodox sunni schools such as the Salafi agree that tabaruk is valid such as gaining blessings from Allah thru the shirt of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Ahmad ibn Hanbal of the Sunnis was buried with hairs of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) placed on his eyes. Many Shia make sujud on turbah from Karbala for tabaruk. 
 

Even those weird Deobandis accept making tawassul ‘by right’ of the Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
 

Ya Ali Madad is not the teachings of Ahlulbayt. It’s the teaching of our forefathers.

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20 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Ya Ali Madad is not the teachings of Ahlulbayt. It’s the teaching of our forefathers.

Don’t screw up my world view. 

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