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In the Name of God بسم الله

No Medium between Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) and His servants

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Salaam Aleikum,

The main message of the Qur'an is to emphasis on the importance how there is only one God and how the servant needs directly to call upon Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and seek help from Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). What the polytheist did is that they added medium between Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his servants, thinking that trough this medium their supplication is answered, because they are more worthy than us and more holy and close to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

They called upon them by invoke them beside Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)):

Say, [O Muhammad], "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in [creation of] the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this or a [remaining] trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful."

How can then we think and add the same method toward our Prophet Muhammad (saws)? If we call Prophet Muhammad (saws) to help us while we Invoke to him, can he benefit us?

Say, ‘I have no power to bring you any harm or good [of my own accord].’ 72:21
[I have no duty] except to transmit from Allah, and [to communicate] His messages; 72:23

How then can we call upon the Prophet (saws) saying 'O Muhammad, We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession' when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have also said:

And [He revealed] that the masjids are for Allah, so do not invoke with Allah anyone. Quran 72:19

Often people bring the following verse thinking that it is the proof that God allowed us to bring medium between God and servant:

O’ you who have Faith! Be in awe of Allah, and seek the means (of nearness) to Him; and strive hard in His way, that you may be prosperous Quran 5:35

Notice very carefully, this verse does not imply that we can take medium between God and servants, but rather it implies that we need to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by complying with His demands.  Allāmah Ṭabāṭabāʾī (رضي الله عنه) says in his tafsir about the Wasilah:

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“al-Wasīlah (اَلْوَسِيْلَةُ ) means attaining something with longing; it is more particular than al-wasilah (اَلْوَصِيْلَةُ = joining, attaining) as it has added connotation of longing. Allãh says: and seek means of nearness to Him; the reality of this means of nearness to Allãh is to comply with demands of His path with knowledge and worship, and pursuit of virtues of the sharī‘ah , and it is like al-qurbah (اَلْقُرْبَةُ = nearness).”

It is a sort of joining together, i.e. a spiritual joining which connects the slave with his master; there is no link that connects man with his Lord except the submissiveness of worship and veneration. Therefore, the means of nearness means ensuring the reality of veneration and turning the face of humility and poverty to His direction – this is then the connecting link that joins the servant to his Lord. As for knowledge and good deed, these are obviously its tools and concomitants, except if knowledge and deed are used to this very condition.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says about the tawassul:

إِنَّ أَفْضَلَ مَا تَوَسَّلَ بِهِ الْمُتَوَسِّلُونَ إِلَى اللهِ سُبْحَانَهُ: الاْيمَانُ بِهِ وَبِرَسُولِهِ، وَالْجِهادُ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَإِنَّهُ ذِرْوَةُ الاْسْلاَمِ، وَكَلِمَةُ الاْخْلاَصِ فَإِنَّهَا الْفِطْرَةُ، وَإِقَامُ الْصَّلاَةِ فَإِنَّهَا الْمِلَّةُ، وَإِيتَاهُ الزَّكَاةِ فَإِنَّهَا فَرِيضَةٌ وَاجِبَةٌ، وَصَوْمُ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ فَإِنَّهُ جُنَّةٌ مِنَ الْعِقَاب، وَحَجُّ الْبَيْتِ وَاعْتِمارُهُ فَإِنَّهُمَا يَنْفِيَانِ الْفَقْرَ وَيَرْحَضَانِ الذَّنْبَ، وَصِلَةُ الرَّحِمِ فَإِنَّهَا مَثْرَاةٌ فِي الْمَالِ وَمَنْسَأَةٌ في الاْجَلِ، وَصَدَقَةُ السِّرِّ فَإِنَّهَا تُكَفِّرُ الْخَطِيئَةَ، وَصَدَقَةُ الْعَلاَنِيَةِ فَإِنَّهَا تَدْفَعُ مِيتَةَ السُّوءِ، وَصَنَائِعُ الْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنَّهَا تَقِي مَصَارعَ الْهَوَانِ.

The best means by which seekers of nearness [mutawassilun] to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness [tawassul], is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu’l-‘ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka’bah) and its ‘umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Kitāb al-Zuhd by al-Ḥusayn b. Saʿeed, pg 13
Al-Maḥāsin, vol 1, pg 289
Man lā yaḥḍuruh al-faqīh, vol 1, pg 205
ʿIlal al-Sharāiʿ, vol 1, pg 247
Tuḥaf al-ʿUqūl, pg 149
Nahjul al-Balāgha, vol 1, pg 215; Sermon 113
Al-Amālī by Shaykh al-Ṭūsī, pg 216

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Reciting Qur'an and contemplate on its verses will help you to understand that there is none but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who should only Invoke and ask for all of our needs and that there is no medium between God and his servants.

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Salam,

In doa iftitah... Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is far and He is also close.

ٱلَّذِي بَعُدَ فَلاَ يُرَىٰ
alladhi ba`uda fala yura
and Who is so far away that none can ever see Him

 

وَقَرُبَ فَشَهِدَ النَّجْوَىٰ
wa qaruba fashahida alnnajwa
and, in the same time, He is so nigh that He is fully aware of even the whispering secrets.

When a person is at loss, he needs helping hand to guide him to be on to the path.

Who are the helping hands that will bring us to the path or be on the path? Those are the Slaves of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Authorized means) that know the secrets to the right path and how to stay on the path.

Are we deprived from communicating with the help hands (eventhough we cannot physically see it?).

I believe that are two ways of making a call:

1.  Directly towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by invoking His Holy Names.  This type of call is to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is an act of worship. To strengthen our invocation, we can add "be haqqi Muhammad waali Muhammad " or salawats.

2. Through Prophet and Imams as mean to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This type of call is acknowledge that Prophet and Imam are our Ulil-Amr.  They have authority (approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) on our life.  Again, they are just means, to be accurate..as authorized means that approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to give shafaat.

 

Even when we seek help from our friends, parents, doctors, ... or Imams, there are two types of understanding of seeking help must exist in us... 

1.)  In reality Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that give us the help 2.) We are authorized to seek mean of asking help (not directly invoking His Holy Names) with the understanding of #1.  So our act of seeking help is a worship even though via a mean.

There are types of issues that we cannot ask through the means.  It is reserved only from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  For example,seeking Taubah or repentance, saving us from hell, giving us His mercy...etc.

When come to worldly issues such making decision to buy a house, in business, giving us advise on certain issues...we can ask through the means.  What we can ask other people to help us, we can also ask Imams to help us too.

Some people ask the intercession from Imams for worldly issues (not Godly issues such as seeking taubah) because they believe Imams are Ulil-Amr in the world and in their life (Imams have delegated authority by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission as Ulil-Amr), then it is acceptable.  As long as they believe that Imams cannot do anything without the permission from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam.  If what I say is wrong, please correct me.  If not accurate, it is my weaknesses. 

 

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3 hours ago, layman said:

Salam,

In doa iftitah... Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is far and He is also close.

ٱلَّذِي بَعُدَ فَلاَ يُرَىٰ
alladhi ba`uda fala yura
and Who is so far away that none can ever see Him

 

وَقَرُبَ فَشَهِدَ النَّجْوَىٰ
wa qaruba fashahida alnnajwa
and, in the same time, He is so nigh that He is fully aware of even the whispering secrets.

When a person is at loss, he needs helping hand to guide him to be on to the path.

Who are the helping hands that will bring us to the path or be on the path? Those are the Slaves of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Authorized means) that know the secrets to the right path and how to stay on the path.

Are we deprived from communicating with the help hands (eventhough we cannot physically see it?).

I believe that are two ways of making a call:

1.  Directly towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by invoking His Holy Names.  This type of call is to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is an act of worship. To strengthen our invocation, we can add "be haqqi Muhammad waali Muhammad " or salawats.

2. Through Prophet and Imams as mean to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This type of call is acknowledge that Prophet and Imam are our Ulil-Amr.  They have authority (approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) on our life.  Again, they are just means, to be accurate..as authorized means that approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to give shafaat.

 

Even when we seek help from our friends, parents, doctors, ... or Imams, there are two types of understanding of seeking help must exist in us... 

1.)  In reality Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that give us the help 2.) We are authorized to seek mean of asking help (not directly invoking His Holy Names) with the understanding of #1.  So our act of seeking help is a worship even though via a mean.

There are types of issues that we cannot ask through the means.  It is reserved only from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  For example,seeking Taubah or repentance, saving us from hell, giving us His mercy...etc.

When come to worldly issues such making decision to buy a house, in business, giving us advise on certain issues...we can ask through the means.  What we can ask other people to help us, we can also ask Imams to help us too.

Some people ask the intercession from Imams for worldly issues (not Godly issues such as seeking taubah) because they believe Imams are Ulil-Amr in the world and in their life (Imams have delegated authority by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission as Ulil-Amr), then it is acceptable.  As long as they believe that Imams cannot do anything without the permission from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam.  If what I say is wrong, please correct me.  If not accurate, it is my weaknesses.

so we cant say ya hussain? what if i niyyah is not idoltry but i simply ignorance?meaningnotthinking imamhussain is on thesame level as Allah?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lion of Shia said:

so we cant say ya hussain? what if i niyyah is not idoltry but i simply ignorance?meaningnotthinking imamhussain is on thesame level as Allah?

When you say Ya Hussain, your niyyat should he is as one of Waliyullah / Imams approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Even, if i am able to go back to the time of Rasulullah or Imam Ali, i would address them... Ya Rasulullah or Ya Amirul Mukminin..   and deep in my heart i will still believe their wilayat is given and approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If i am currently at this moment, and I am calling the Prophet or Ya Rasulullah or Ya Ali...  the deep inside will be the same..they are all approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as my Ulil-Amr.

Time is not the factor...

Nubbuwah and Imamah belongs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), approved by Him, existed  from the beginning to the end of creation.  These are means of nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They are NOT Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Edited by layman
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so we cant say ya hussain? 

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ {5}

[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

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Say Ya Ali. Ya Husayn

There are many levels, of understanding the most basic is They are the Straight Path. They are the role model we need to follow. There enemies are the Curse one, we need to Avoid like we avoid a pandemic/plague. 

Usually this Concept gets sidetracked in the usual conversations around supplication/dua whatever they try to brand it as. 

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9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says about the tawassul:

إِنَّ أَفْضَلَ مَا تَوَسَّلَ بِهِ الْمُتَوَسِّلُونَ إِلَى اللهِ سُبْحَانَهُ: الاْيمَانُ بِهِ وَبِرَسُولِهِ، وَالْجِهادُ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَإِنَّهُ ذِرْوَةُ الاْسْلاَمِ، وَكَلِمَةُ الاْخْلاَصِ فَإِنَّهَا الْفِطْرَةُ، وَإِقَامُ الْصَّلاَةِ فَإِنَّهَا الْمِلَّةُ، وَإِيتَاهُ الزَّكَاةِ فَإِنَّهَا فَرِيضَةٌ وَاجِبَةٌ، وَصَوْمُ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ فَإِنَّهُ جُنَّةٌ مِنَ الْعِقَاب، وَحَجُّ الْبَيْتِ وَاعْتِمارُهُ فَإِنَّهُمَا يَنْفِيَانِ الْفَقْرَ وَيَرْحَضَانِ الذَّنْبَ، وَصِلَةُ الرَّحِمِ فَإِنَّهَا مَثْرَاةٌ فِي الْمَالِ وَمَنْسَأَةٌ في الاْجَلِ، وَصَدَقَةُ السِّرِّ فَإِنَّهَا تُكَفِّرُ الْخَطِيئَةَ، وَصَدَقَةُ الْعَلاَنِيَةِ فَإِنَّهَا تَدْفَعُ مِيتَةَ السُّوءِ، وَصَنَائِعُ الْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنَّهَا تَقِي مَصَارعَ الْهَوَانِ.

The best means by which seekers of nearness [mutawassilun] to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness [tawassul], is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu’l-‘ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka’bah) and its ‘umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Kitāb al-Zuhd by al-Ḥusayn b. Saʿeed, pg 13
Al-Maḥāsin, vol 1, pg 289
Man lā yaḥḍuruh al-faqīh, vol 1, pg 205
ʿIlal al-Sharāiʿ, vol 1, pg 247
Tuḥaf al-ʿUqūl, pg 149
Nahjul al-Balāgha, vol 1, pg 215; Sermon 113
Al-Amālī by Shaykh al-Ṭūsī, pg 216

Thank you for sharing the words of the Imam (عليه السلام). InshaAllah those who aspire to follow his teachings will benefit from this.

Those who wish to reject it in favor of their own definition do so at their own risk.

 

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Those who wish to reject it in favor of their own definition do so at their own risk.

As a Layman,  I will keep Directing you to the fact that - Scholars/Jurists/Marja-e- Taqlid Have READ ALL available material- Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Sunnah of Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) which they impart to us thru Sermons/Letters/Dua(s)/Ziyarats - 

We are also aware of Qur'an 3:7:. Mother/Clear Concepts/Verse and ambiguous ones- The Mute Book and The Walking/Talking Book share the same principles. Things need to be looked at in aggregate/Holistic manner. 

If there is an difference in understanding lets not brand like the Khawarij did/do. 

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What the polytheist did is that they added medium between Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his servants, thinking that trough this medium their supplication is answered, because they are more worthy than us and more holy and close to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Above is misguided. The fact is that "They" acted out of their own desire. This goes for anything, desire to choose a system, Not allowed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) for governance, or any social system, creed etc...

Did not have a Directive from Allah(عزّ وجلّ).

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

Iblis had the same issue, Only God. Allah(عزّ وجلّ) wanted to make ALL know that Allah(عزّ وجلّ) does not Need us to acknowledge HIM(عزّ وجلّ). Because as you see Only Allah(عزّ وجلّ) is the same as the spiritual paths people seek, there will be at least seven billion paths today. All will seek spirituality individually, with their own understanding of the God. This is non muslim creed- only spirituality. All these seven billion individual servants of their god will have to live together. This is where the issue becomes clear- You need One way- and that is thru Qur'an 1:7. Yes, there is a medium appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ). No one got Direct communication. Every one in the past, present and future received/will be receiving  it thru Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny)- Qur'an/Sunnah.  

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

-----

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

[Pickthal 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

 

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So what u trying to say ? That intercession is wrong?

we often forget that even a month can be considered intercession ie month of Ramadan , where angels descend and act as amplifier of prayer and worship and actions , were okay with that so why is it a problem to accept a person can amplify our dua ? Reality is most of us are really veiled or impure and our own selves stop our duas from reaching God , we are our own hurdle because of our actions state etc 

but when we direct it to an imam or prophet then our state of impurity doesn’t effect how they receive it, and then it can reach God because they redirect it on our behalf but even that has conditions, they have to accept u and some are more lenient than other such as imam Hussein a lot of people’s dua get accepted at his shrine whereas same person same dua at imam Ali shrine or other imams shrine won’t be also God has to accept it as well and be inline with what God has planned for you in life, like for example u want to be rich but God wishes u to be tested with poverty that is ur test in life in that case no person or dua can change God’s will until it’s carried out or passed through or even failed 

 

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5 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

So what u trying to say ? That intercession is wrong?

we often forget that even a month can be considered intercession ie month of Ramadan , where angels descend and act as amplifier of prayer and worship and actions , were okay with that so why is it a problem to accept a person can amplify our dua ? Reality is most of us are really veiled or impure and our own selves stop our duas from reaching God , we are our own hurdle because of our actions state etc 

but when we direct it to an imam or prophet then our state of impurity doesn’t effect how they receive it, and then it can reach God because they redirect it on our behalf but even that has conditions, they have to accept u and some are more lenient than other such as imam Hussein a lot of people’s dua get accepted at his shrine whereas same person same dua at imam Ali shrine or other imams shrine won’t be also God has to accept it as well and be inline with what God has planned for you in life, like for example u want to be rich but God wishes u to be tested with poverty that is ur test in life in that case no person or dua can change God’s will until it’s carried out or passed through or even failed 

 

What I'm trying to say is that one form of intercession is wrong. The following is the wrong one:

O Abu’l-Hasan!
O commander of the Believers!
O `Ali, son of Abu-Talib!
O Allah’s Argument against His creatures!
O our master and chief!
We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession
and your advocacy for us before Allah;
and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.
O well-esteemed with Allah,
intercede for us before Allah.

This is what Polytheist did with their idols. This is an invoking an Imam beside of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). You can never find any narration from our Imams (عليه السلام) where they have recited in this kind of form.

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

What I'm trying to say is that one form of intercession is wrong. The following is the wrong one:

O Abu’l-Hasan!
O commander of the Believers!
O `Ali, son of Abu-Talib!
O Allah’s Argument against His creatures!
O our master and chief!
We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession
and your advocacy for us before Allah;
and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.
O well-esteemed with Allah,
intercede for us before Allah.

This is what Polytheist did with their idols. This is an invoking an Imam beside of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). You can never find any narration from our Imams (عليه السلام) where they have recited in this kind of form.

Why is that wrong? Nobody is saying power is with you , they’re just calling their name otherwise else would u identify them

yes if anyone said u have the will u have the power u control my destiny etc etc then yeah that’s wrong and bidah, nevertheless how else would u ask for their intercession without calling them directly 

quran says “do not say those who died in the way of God are dead , nay they are alive but u do not perceive it” it’s no different to calling ur mother or father or whoever for assistance in whatever in life , like u call ur lawyer or accountant on the phone or email or whatever 

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Just now, theEndIsNear said:

Why is that wrong? Nobody is saying power is with you , they’re just calling their name otherwise else would u identify them

yes if anyone said u have the will u have the power u control my destiny etc etc then yeah that’s wrong and bidah, nevertheless how else would u ask for their intercession without calling them directly 

quran says “do not say those who died in the way of God are dead , nay they are alive but u do not perceive it” it’s no different to calling ur mother or father or whoever for assistance in whatever in life , like u call ur lawyer or accountant on the phone or email or whatever 

The reason why it is wrong is because it goes against the following verses:

And [He revealed] that the masjids are for Allah, so do not invoke with Allah anyone. Quran 72:19

Say, [O Muhammad], "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in [creation of] the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this or a [remaining] trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful."

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The reason why it is wrong is because it goes against the following verses:

And [He revealed] that the masjids are for Allah, so do not invoke with Allah anyone. Quran 72:19

Say, [O Muhammad], "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in [creation of] the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this or a [remaining] trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful."

But the issue here is what do u mean by invoking ? Technically intercession is invoking God where u pass ur dua onto the imams to represent ur case or needs or whatever, because they have a higher chance of your dua being accepted 

nobody is saying the imams have the power or they themselves carry out the work , they just present ur case like a lawyer presents ur case cause they know how to ask better , whereas for what ur asking u don’t necessarily understand how to invoke God for it ie knowing as asma al husna the correct formality to ask , the correct submission to ask and even further the clear heart by which ur dua can even reach God , that’s the point 

 

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3 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

But the issue here is what do u mean by invoking ? Technically intercession is invoking God where u pass ur dua onto the imams to represent ur case or needs or whatever, because they have a higher chance of your dua being accepted 

nobody is saying the imams have the power or they themselves carry out the work , they just present ur case like a lawyer presents ur case cause they know how to ask better , whereas for what ur asking u don’t necessarily understand how to invoke God for it ie knowing as asma al husna the correct formality to ask , the correct submission to ask and even further the clear heart by which ur dua can even reach God , that’s the point 

 

No, this is literally what we call as invoking beside Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), calling upon them in supplication where only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) should be addressed and invoke upon. In Du'a when we want to bring Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), we can only do following:

Abu ʿAbdallāh ((عليه السلام).) then said: « The Messenger of Allah ﷺ would say: “Yes, indeed. You are the best Who answers, the best to be called for help, and the best to plead with, I plead before You through the light of Your face, through Your majesty, Your power, Your might, I plead before You through Your kingdom, through Your formidable coats of arm and Your community, the members of Your community all of them, by the right of Muhammad and the successors [Awsiyah] after Muhammad to grant al-Salat (favors) upon Muhammad and his family and provide me help in such and such matters. (One should mention one’s needs). »

al-Kāfi, vol 2, pg 584 – thaqalayn.net
Grading: Ṣaḥīḥ [Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (2/458)]

- Notice, In Du'a, it must be all the time addressed to God and it can not shift to other creation!

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

No, this is literally what we call as invoking beside Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), calling upon them in supplication where only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) should be addressed and invoke upon. In Du'a when we want to bring Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), we can only do following:

Abu ʿAbdallāh ((عليه السلام).) then said: « The Messenger of Allah ﷺ would say: “Yes, indeed. You are the best Who answers, the best to be called for help, and the best to plead with, I plead before You through the light of Your face, through Your majesty, Your power, Your might, I plead before You through Your kingdom, through Your formidable coats of arm and Your community, the members of Your community all of them, by the right of Muhammad and the successors [Awsiyah] after Muhammad to grant al-Salat (favors) upon Muhammad and his family and provide me help in such and such matters. (One should mention one’s needs). »

al-Kāfi, vol 2, pg 584 – thaqalayn.net
Grading: Ṣaḥīḥ [Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (2/458)]

- Notice, In Du'a, it must be all the time addressed to God and it can not shift to other creation!

If ur intentions is that u think they can do something God won’t or can’t then yeah it’s wrong ,but if ur intentions is that they present to God in your behalf in a better manner ur needs then it’s not invoking other than God 

dont u go to a sheikh for things like marriage? Or other things? Why can’t God just accept ur marriage directly ? Same concept it’s a formality 

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25 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

What I'm trying to say is that one form of intercession is wrong. The following is the wrong one:

O Abu’l-Hasan!
O commander of the Believers!
O `Ali, son of Abu-Talib!
O Allah’s Argument against His creatures!
O our master and chief!
We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession
and your advocacy for us before Allah;
and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.
O well-esteemed with Allah,
intercede for us before Allah.

This is what Polytheist did with their idols. This is an invoking an Imam beside of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). You can never find any narration from our Imams (عليه السلام) where they have recited in this kind of form.

InsyaAllah, 

When we are all in the hereafter and in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), our Prophet and Imams and while all humans beings are the hot field waiting whether we are going to heaven or hell and to cross the sirat, PLEASE call  upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone to intercede.  See whether it will work.

Is our aamal make us deserve heaven? Or love of Prophet and Ahlulbayt weigh more than everything else?  That love brings syafaat.  That love allows the communication between us and Ahlulbayt.

All sahabah said they love and pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...even made Salah after killing Imam Hussain.  Are their aamal accepted.

Why love of Prophet and Ahlulbayt takes precedent before performing the worship?

 

قُلۡ لَّاۤ اَسۡـَٔلُکُمۡ عَلَیۡہِ اَجۡرًا اِلَّا الۡمَوَدَّۃَ فِی الۡقُرۡبٰی

“Say (O’ Mohammad), I do not ask of you any recompense for it, save love of (my) relatives (near of kin)” (42:23)

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Just now, theEndIsNear said:

If ur intentions is that u think they can do something God won’t or can’t then yeah it’s wrong ,but if ur intentions is that they present to God in your behalf in a better manner ur needs then it’s not invoking other than God 

dont u go to a sheikh for things like marriage? Or other things? Why can’t God just accept ur marriage directly ? Same concept it’s a formality 

It is not about they can do or not, it is about INVOKING beside God. Du'a is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and in all the dua it must be constantly addressed to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and you can not shift to other creation.

Dua Tawassul is the best of example of contradiction where you start from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then you start to invoke others beside Him.

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Just now, layman said:

InsyaAllah, 

When we are all in the hereafter and in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), our Prophet and Imams and while all humans beings are the hot field waiting whether we are going to heaven or hell and to cross the sirat, PLEASE call  upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone to intercede.  See whether it will work.

The Prophet (saws) and Imams (عليه السلام) are next to you in Hereafter to intercede. It has nothing to do with Dua.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

The Prophet (saws) and Imams (عليه السلام) are next to you in Hereafter to intercede. It has nothing to do with Dua.

The are next to me now too.

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

It is not about they can do or not, it is about INVOKING beside God. Du'a is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and in all the dua it must be constantly addressed to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and you can not shift to other creation.

Dua Tawassul is the best of example of contradiction where you start from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then you start to invoke others beside Him.

The issue here is what do u mean by invoking ‘oh Jesus save me’ or ‘ya Hussein please pray to God for my dua to be accepted etc’ these are very two different things 

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Just now, theEndIsNear said:

The issue here is what do u mean by invoking ‘oh Jesus save me’ or ‘ya Hussein please pray to God for my dua to be accepted etc’ these are very two different things 

By invoking is that you call Ya X and Y in Du'a and address them, while in Du'a we can only address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

No they are not.

Then it is just a matter your belief and mine.

Nubuwwah and Imamah are with us.  They are alive, not from me but from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Edited by layman
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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

By invoking is that you call Ya X and Y in Du'a and address them, while in Du'a we can only address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I don’t know it seems like ur taking an extremist position based on meaning of this term , ur defining all forms of invocation as anything other than direct dua to Allah as wrong even if it means they’re asking on behalf of u to Allah 

it’s a very wahabi type definition, I mean u gotta agree marja have different opinions on this matter and we are advised to take their rulings not really make our own 

if they all said that invoking means u can’t do dua asking for intercession to God through another person then yeah I’d agree but since they don’t , I have to disagree with you

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Guest Psychological Warfare

This where we usually drift to:

https://www.al-islam.org/wahhabism-2nd-edition-revised-edited-and-annotated-jafar-subhani/12-seeking-help-spirits-awliya#1-death-not-annihilation-man

We are Physical Body and Soul. Atheist think we Only have a Body. We die. End of Story. 

-----

Kindly, Identify yourself- Do you believe in the one who receives ALL Amr. 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

Benefits Of Imam Mahdi (aj) During His Ghaibat
https://www.al-islam.org/fazail-ul-mahdi-ali-akbar-talaafi/benefits-imam-mahdi-aj-during-his-ghaibat

We believe in the Living Imam(عليه السلام). Those who do not acknowledge the Living Poof of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) on Earth. We are on two different wave lengths. 

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2 minutes ago, layman said:

Then it is just a matter your belief and mine.

Nubuwwah and Imamah are with us.  They are alive, not from me but from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Well you can believe in whatever belief you want. Qur'an have clearly defined the difference between this World, Barzak and Day of Judgement.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Well you can believe in whatever belief you want. Qur'an have clearly defined the difference between this World, Barzak and Day of Judgement.

That is ok with me.  I say the same to you too.

 

I have my own experiences that i cannot denied because i witnessed it.  I stick to my belief.

Edited by layman
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1 minute ago, theEndIsNear said:

I don’t know it seems like ur taking an extremist position based on meaning of this term , ur defining all forms of invocation as anything other than direct dua to Allah as wrong even if it means they’re asking on behalf of u to Allah 

it’s a very wahabi type definition, I mean u gotta agree marja have different opinions on this matter and we are advised to take their rulings not really make our own 

if they all said that invoking means u can’t do dua asking for intercession to God through another person then yeah I’d agree but since they don’t , I have to disagree with you

There are Scholars who agree with my position:

ʿAllāmah Muḥammad Jawād Mughnīyya (d. 1979 CE) comments on the verses following it:

(قل إني لا أملك لك ضرا ولا رشدا)
أي نفعا. وأيضا قل يا محمد للمشركين : أنا بشر مثلكم لا أدعي القدرة على التحكم في مصيركم وضركم أو نفعكم ، فالأمر كله لله وحده.
(قل إني لن يجيرني من الله أحد ولن أجد من دونه ملتحدا إلا بلاغا من الله ورسالاته)
لا مفر ولا ملجأ لرسول الله من الله إذا قصر في تأدية الرسالة التي ائتمنه عليها .. وهذه آية من عشرات الآيات التي تدل بصراحة ووضوح على ان الإسلام يرفض فكرة الواسطة بين الله وعباده ، ويضع الإنسان أمام خالقه مباشرة يخاطبه ويناجيه بما شاء ، ويتقرب اليه بفعل الخيرات من غير شفيع ووسيط.

« Say: “It is not in my power to cause you harm nor to bring you to the Straight Path.” » 
And also say, O Muhammad, to the mushrikeen: I am a human being like you, I do not claim the ability to control your fate nor can I harm you or benefit you. This ability belongs to Allah alone.
« Say: “None can protect me from Allah’s chastisement [if I disobey Him], nor can I find refuge except in Him. But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages. » 
There is no escape for the Prophet of Allah from Allah if he had a limitation in delivering the message that has been entrusted to him

These verses, like many other verses, explicitly and unequivocally prove that Islam rejects the idea of a medium between Allah and his servants, and places man directly before his Creator in such a way that he (man) turns to him unhindered and can address him and call on to him, however he wishes or however he feels and he can seek nearness to Him (the Creator) by righteous deeds without any intercessor or medium.

Al-Tafsir Al-Kashif, Volume 7, Page 441-442

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13 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

There are Scholars who agree with my position:

ʿAllāmah Muḥammad Jawād Mughnīyya (d. 1979 CE) comments on the verses following it:

(قل إني لا أملك لك ضرا ولا رشدا)
أي نفعا. وأيضا قل يا محمد للمشركين : أنا بشر مثلكم لا أدعي القدرة على التحكم في مصيركم وضركم أو نفعكم ، فالأمر كله لله وحده.
(قل إني لن يجيرني من الله أحد ولن أجد من دونه ملتحدا إلا بلاغا من الله ورسالاته)
لا مفر ولا ملجأ لرسول الله من الله إذا قصر في تأدية الرسالة التي ائتمنه عليها .. وهذه آية من عشرات الآيات التي تدل بصراحة ووضوح على ان الإسلام يرفض فكرة الواسطة بين الله وعباده ، ويضع الإنسان أمام خالقه مباشرة يخاطبه ويناجيه بما شاء ، ويتقرب اليه بفعل الخيرات من غير شفيع ووسيط.

« Say: “It is not in my power to cause you harm nor to bring you to the Straight Path.” » 
And also say, O Muhammad, to the mushrikeen: I am a human being like you, I do not claim the ability to control your fate nor can I harm you or benefit you. This ability belongs to Allah alone.
« Say: “None can protect me from Allah’s chastisement [if I disobey Him], nor can I find refuge except in Him. But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages. » 
There is no escape for the Prophet of Allah from Allah if he had a limitation in delivering the message that has been entrusted to him

These verses, like many other verses, explicitly and unequivocally prove that Islam rejects the idea of a medium between Allah and his servants, and places man directly before his Creator in such a way that he (man) turns to him unhindered and can address him and call on to him, however he wishes or however he feels and he can seek nearness to Him (the Creator) by righteous deeds without any intercessor or medium.

Al-Tafsir Al-Kashif, Volume 7, Page 441-442

Fair enough that’s one point of view but u must admit that other points of views exist you can’t discount them , u choose what makes sense to u and fair enough good luck , that’s why we have a marjah  system otherwise we’d all have our own personal religion based on what we think or feel is the correct thing and imagine that chaos of self interpretation, christians have this dilemma , from church to church christian to christian they differ quiet largely on fundamental issues invoking Holy Ghost as inspiring the, to the “truth”

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6 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

Fair enough that’s one point of view but u must admit that other points of views exist you can’t discount them 

I do not discount them. I'm very aware that we have two camps in this issue and many issues too. 

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8 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

As a Layman,  I will keep Directing you to the fact that - Scholars/Jurists/Marja-e- Taqlid Have READ ALL available material- Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Sunnah of Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) which they impart to us thru Sermons/Letters/Dua(s)/Ziyarats -

Correct brother, the comment was not directed to the fuqaha but rather towards laymen who tend to invent their own practices.

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5 hours ago, theEndIsNear said:

So what u trying to say ? That intercession is wrong?

No, rather he is providing the definition of intercession as described by Imam Ali (عليه السلام), as opposed to modern day practices which can't be traced back to our imams. 

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55 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

No, rather he is providing the definition of intercession as described by Imam Ali (عليه السلام), as opposed to modern day practices which can't be traced back to our imams. 

Intercession is in the Quran 

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