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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did God create Colours?

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سلام

Did God create colours in the physical world, independent from our conscious observation? 

Or are colours only perceived due to the presence of a conscious observer? 

In other words, if consciousness didn't exist (or wasn't created), would this world still be colourful? 

Thanks

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7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did God create colours in the physical world, independent from our conscious observation? 

Alaikas-Salam,

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ أَنْزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَخْرَجْنَا بِهِ ثَمَرَاتٍ مُخْتَلِفًا أَلْوَانُهَا ۚ وَمِنَ الْجِبَالِ جُدَدٌ بِيضٌ وَحُمْرٌ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهَا وَغَرَابِيبُ سُودٌ {27}

35:27) Do you not see that Allah sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth therewith fruits of various colors; and in the mountains are streaks, white and red, of various hues and (others) intensely black?

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَٰلِكَ ۗ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}

35:28) And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.

صِبْغَةَ اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ صِبْغَةً ۖ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ عَابِدُونَ 

2:138) We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.

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Another interesting verse, related yo your query:

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ {22}

[Shakir 30:22] And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colors; most surely there are signs in this for the learned.
[Pickthal 30:22] And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.
[Yusufali 30:22] And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Cool said:

أَلَمْ تَرَ (Do you not see)

In 35:27, God has directly connected the presence of colour to us seeing it, our conscious perception. This verse doesn't address my original question. If we (or any other conscious being) weren't here to see the, would they have existed?

31 minutes ago, Cool said:

صِبْغَةَ اللَّهِ (The colour of God)

صِبْغَةَ has been translated in various ways. It is not clear, if it denotes "colour" as what we mean when we say "colour." 

22 minutes ago, Cool said:

وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ

31 minutes ago, Cool said:

مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَٰلِكَ ۗ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ ۗ

The usage of "colour", in both of these verses, is linked to the learned, conscious perceivers. 

In all other verses that لْون (colour) is used, it is always in relation to conscious observers seeing and learning. In other words, there is not a verse that indicates the existence of colours separately and independently from a conscious perceiver (to see and learn). 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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1 hour ago, Cool said:

صِبْغَةَ اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ صِبْغَةً ۖ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ عَابِدُونَ 

Here's a saheeh narration:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ اِبْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ : فِي قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ «صِبْغَةَ اَللّٰهِ وَ مَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اَللّٰهِ صِبْغَةً » ، - قَالَ اَلْإِسْلاَمُ وَ قَالَ فِي قَوْلِهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ «فَقَدِ اِسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ اَلْوُثْقىٰ » قَالَ هِيَ اَلْإِيمَانُ بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ لاَ شَرِيكَ لَهُ .

 

"Colour" in this verse refers to Islam. 

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5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Colour" in this verse refers to Islam. 

Ok, but we also have many other verses too. 

But lets see first what is our understanding of color.

All seen colors have one origin. That is our eyes get affect by light, and for each color there is a specific frequency .it’s a mercy form God that we don't see all frequencies, but we only see a little part of it which is the seen spectrum. According to the length of light wave, we only see colors with wave length ranging from 400 nanometer to 700 nanometer (nanometer is a part of billion of the meter).

When the light beam falls on any thing and we see that thing in white, it means that it reflects all colors and doesn't absorb any of them. If we see anything in black it means that it absorb all colors and doesn't reflect any other color. Anything is colored in red means it absorbs all colors and reflects only the red.

The capacity in things to reflect & absorb light is a god given capacity. The ability of our eyes to view the shades reflected by objects, is a god given ability. 

So we can say that the colors are the creation of God which is Al-Musawwir i.e., the One who give things their distinct shapes & forms and that include the color.

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وَمَا ذَرَأَ لَكُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُخْتَلِفًا أَلْوَانُهُ ۗ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لِقَوْمٍ يَذَّكَّرُونَ {13}

[Shakir 16:13] And what He has created in the earth of varied hues most surely there is a sign in this for a people who are mindful.

Shakir missed لكم here. 

ذَرَأَ لَكُمْ means "created for you" or "multiplied for you" or "produced for you" in the earth of various colors.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Cool said:

The capacity in things to reflect & absorb light is a god given capacity. The ability of our eyes to view the shades reflected by objects, is a god given ability. 

Let's dissect this paragraph. Is the creation of the capacity of things to absorb/reflect light dependent or independent of the capacity of our eyes to perceive reflected lights?

 

Light hitting a (green) leaf doesn't make that leaf green. It's only when we perceive a certain frequency of light, reflected by the leaf, that we then consider it green. Different animals, insects, and creatures may perceive the same leaf, but because the structure and capacity of their eyes and brains are different than ours, they may not see that leaf as green. This implies that it is not the leaf that is green, it is us that sees it as green. The leaf itself has no colour, until its reflected light, is perceived by the eyes of a conscious being, which in turn translates that light into a colour, depending on its capacity and structure. 

So, when we look at a (green) leaf, the "greenness" of it isn't "out there", it's constructed by our eyes and minds. The "greenness" of it is inside of us or due to us. 

 

Going back to the original question, did God create colours "out there", independent of conscious beings? 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

The leaf itself has no colour, until its reflected light, is perceived by the eyes of a conscious being, which in turn translates that light into a colour, depending on its capacity and structure. 

So, when we look at a (green) leaf, the "greenness" of it isn't "out there", it's constructed by our eyes and minds. The "greenness" of it is inside of us or due to us. 

Nice point, thanks.

But why you are excluding God from the list of conscious beings? 

God is not color blind? He can see/observe colors? He gives things their colors (shape & forms) and in that sense He is Ahsun ul Khaliqeen as well as وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ صِبْغَةً

Lets see some verses now:

عَالِيَهُمْ ثِيَابُ سُنْدُسٍ خُضْرٌ وَإِسْتَبْرَقٌ ۖ وَحُلُّوا أَسَاوِرَ مِنْ فِضَّةٍ وَسَقَاهُمْ رَبُّهُمْ شَرَابًا طَهُورًا {21}

[Shakir 76:21] Upon them shall be garments of fine green silk and thick silk interwoven with gold, and they shall be adorned with bracelets of silver, and their Lord shall make them drink a pure drink.

Note, God here is telling us the color of garments of the people of Jannah.  

وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَخْرَجْنَا بِهِ نَبَاتَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ فَأَخْرَجْنَا مِنْهُ خَضِرًا نُخْرِجُ مِنْهُ حَبًّا مُتَرَاكِبًا وَمِنَ النَّخْلِ مِنْ طَلْعِهَا قِنْوَانٌ دَانِيَةٌ وَجَنَّاتٍ مِنْ أَعْنَابٍ وَالزَّيْتُونَ وَالرُّمَّانَ مُشْتَبِهًا وَغَيْرَ مُتَشَابِهٍ ۗ انْظُرُوا إِلَىٰ ثَمَرِهِ إِذَا أَثْمَرَ وَيَنْعِهِ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكُمْ لَآيَاتٍ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ {99}

[Shakir 6:99] And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.

Here again, God is telling us the color. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Cool said:

But why you are excluding God from the list of conscious beings? 

God is not color blind?

I'm not sure if it makes sense to say God sees colours. Does He see colours as humans do or as other non-human animals do? Does He have eyes that perceive light reflected from things?

It doesn't make sense to think of God perceiving colour as we perceive colours. 

24 minutes ago, Cool said:

Here again, God is telling us the color. 

God is either speaking of Colours in relation to humans (green silk) or in relation to the character of a thing, such as green herbs/plants. Green implies fresh. 

There's an authentic narration in which God refers to the hearts of believers as being green. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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15 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I'm not sure if it makes sense to say God sees colours.

Does it make sense to say that He don't know anything about colors? While He is Al-Lateef & Al-Khabeer. 

Does it makes sense to say that although He has made shams the lamp (siraja) but he is unaware of the fact that the light it produces has colors? 

45 minutes ago, Cool said:

and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates

Does it make sense to say that God don't know the color of pomegranates or olives? Or if He knows but He cannot observe the color?

I don't think any such statement would hold the ground. 

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

I don't think any such statement would hold the ground. 

It makes sense to state that God doesn't see colours as we do. It makes sense to say God probably didn't create colours independent of conscious observers, since colours can't be seen, if there's no one to see them. Colours cannot exist if there's no one to see them. And God doesn't see as we see. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

It makes sense to state that God doesn't see colours as we do.

Not "as we do" but He do see colors. His knowledge encompass everything. There is a verse in Sura e Baqara where God told the color of the cow.

قَالُواْ ادْعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُبَيِّن لَّنَا مَا لَوْنُهَا قَالَ إِنَّهُ يَقُولُ إِنّهَا بَقَرَةٌ صَفْرَاء فَاقِـعٌ لَّوْنُهَا تَسُرُّ النَّاظِرِينَ

2:69 Said they: "Pray on our behalf unto thy Sustainer that He make clear to us what her colour should be. "[Mosa] answered: "Behold; He says it is to be a yellow cow, bright of hue, pleasing to the beholder."

Yellow color is 'bright" and it is pleasing to the viewer. After that how can anyone say that He cannot see colors?

Edited by Cool
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Cool said:

Not "as we do" but He do see colors. His knowledge encompass everything. There is a verse in Sura e Baqara where God told the color of the cow.

قَالُواْ ادْعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُبَيِّن لَّنَا مَا لَوْنُهَا قَالَ إِنَّهُ يَقُولُ إِنّهَا بَقَرَةٌ صَفْرَاء فَاقِـعٌ لَّوْنُهَا تَسُرُّ النَّاظِرِينَ

2:69 Said they: "Pray on our behalf unto thy Sustainer that He make clear to us what her colour should be. "[Mosa] answered: "Behold; He says it is to be a yellow cow, bright of hue, pleasing to the beholder."

Yellow color is 'bright" and it is pleasing to the viewer. After that how can anyone say that He cannot see colors?

Again, God is informing humans to look for a yellow bright cow. It will be pleasing to the humans that see it. 

Humans are the conscious observers that see the yellow. A different animal or creature may not see that cow to be yellow or bright. 

God is telling humans to go look for a yellow cow. (What humans see as yellow)

Edited by SoRoUsH
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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It makes sense to state that God doesn't see colours as we do. It makes sense to say God probably didn't create colours independent of conscious observers, since colours can't be seen, if there's no one to see them. Colours cannot exist if there's no one to see them. And God doesn't see as we see. 

Something can exist with physical properties (ie certain emitted wavelengths) whether a conscious observer exists or not for validation. The potentiality is still there. And who knows if humans seeing color is the only function of these wavelengths? Maybe it serves other functions.

I guess that’s like saying “keys” wouldn’t exist if keyholes didn’t exist. But why does a key need a keyhole to be considered “existing”?

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23 minutes ago, Reza said:

I guess that’s like saying “keys” wouldn’t exist if keyholes didn’t exist. But why does a key need a keyhole to be considered “existing”?

We're not talking about anything. We're talking about colours, specifically. Sounds, too. Secondary qualities. 

Wavelengths may serve other purposes and functions. Sure! I'm not arguing against that. 

However, there's a distinction between wavelengths and colours. We don't see wavelengths; we see colours. Colours are seen. They must be seen. They are "translated" wavelengths. And it is us, our conscious beings, that does that translation. 

Without such translation, wavelengths wouldn't be colours. In other words, colours are translated wavelengths, and we (and/or other conscious beings) are the translators. 

No translators, no translations. No colours. 

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15 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

We don't see wavelengths; we see colours. Colours are seen. They must be seen. They are "translated" wavelengths.

Translated wavelengths are still wavelengths. Giving it a different name through translation (color) doesn’t change any inherent physical properties of the object. 

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58 minutes ago, Reza said:

Translated wavelengths are still wavelengths. Giving it a different name through translation (color) doesn’t change any inherent physical properties of the object. 

Do colours have properties and functions? 

Translation of X is not X. Translated Arabic into Farsi is not Arabic. Translated Arabic wavelengths are not wavelengths. We understand the former but not the latter. The former affects our cognition and thoughts, the latter does not. 

It is not just giving it a different name. It is talking about two different things. They are experienced differently, and they affect our experiences differently. 

Wavelengths may affect our bodies, colours affect our minds. 

To say they're one and the same misses half of the picture. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

Did God create colours in the physical world, independent from our conscious observation? 

Or are colours only perceived due to the presence of a conscious observer? 

In other words, if consciousness didn't exist (or wasn't created), would this world still be colourful? 

Thanks

Same with mathemathical objects. I believe these are all in knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He manifest them in reality. They all exist infinitly in God knowledge.

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42 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Same with mathemathical objects. I believe these are all in knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He manifest them in reality. They all exist infinitly in God knowledge.

I do not doubt for a second that everything is in Allah's knowledge. 

That is not the main issue. 

My question is, did God directly create colours (or sounds) in this world, prior to and independent of the creation of humans (or conscious beings)? 

Or did God indirectly create colours by creating humans and consciousness to translate wavelengths/light into colours? 

The answer to this question has implications. For example, what really exists? And what we, conscious beings, have imposed on the essence of existence? Answers to these questions have implications, too. 

Are we co-creators of our own personal realities by adding colours and sounds to a divinely-created universal template? The answer to this question has implications, too. 

So, to be clear, I am not asking any questions regarding God's knowledge. God knows everything and anything there is.

 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I do not doubt for a second that everything is in Allah's knowledge. 

That is not the main issue. 

My question is, did God directly create colours (or sounds) in this world, prior to and independent of the creation of humans (or conscious beings)? 

Or did God indirectly create colours by creating humans and consciousness to translate wavelengths/light into colours? 

The answer to this question has implications. For example, what really exists? And what we, conscious beings, have imposed on the essence of existence? Answers to these questions have implications, too. 

Are we co-creators of our own personal realities by adding colours and sounds to a divinely-created universal template? The answer to this question has implications, too. 

So, to be clear, I am not asking any questions regarding God's knowledge. God knows everything and anything there is.

 

I understand what you mean. I believe they are just an abstract objects in God knowledge that manifest by different consciousness in different way. Even if there is no consciousness to observe the color, they still exist beyond us, but they always manifest in our consciousness.

Edited by Abu Nur
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6 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Again, God is informing humans to look for a yellow bright cow. It will be pleasing to the humans that see it. 

Yes He is, but what make you feel that He cannot see the thing for which He is giving a complete description? 

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I understand what you mean. I believe they are just an abstract objects in God knowledge that manifest by different consciousness in different way. Even if there is no consciousness to observe the color, they still exist beyond us, but they always manifest in our consciousness.

This is an interesting perspective. Correct me if I misunderstood you. You're saying that colours are created but not in this world, rather in God's knowledge/mind/nafs. They enter this world, our world, as a manifestation through our consciousness. So, it is our consciousness that "pulls" these abstract objects/qualities from God's nafs/knowledge and brings them to this world. Correct? 

In other words, without our consciousness, these abstract objects/qualities would not descend or enter into our world.  

God has the colours but we "take" it from Him, through our consciousness, to paint our personal realities. Right?

Edited by SoRoUsH
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6 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

This is not what said. He can see everything.

Sorry, you added "like us" in that sentence. 

7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It makes sense to state that God doesn't see colours as we do.

 

7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It makes sense to say God probably didn't create colours independent of conscious observers, since colours can't be seen, if there's no one to see them.

So God is not a conscious observer?

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32 minutes ago, Cool said:

Sorry, you added "like us" in that sentence. 

 

So God is not a conscious observer?

God doesn't see colours the way humans do. Humans see colours in a very limited way. The range of light that registers in our eyes is limited. So, God doesn't see like us. His seeing things is not like us seeing things. 

God's observation of colours isn't like our observation of colours. He doesn't need to translate wavelengths to see colours. 

There's simply no comparison between what God sees and does and what we see and do. 

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Salam,

How God sees color is beyond my understanding.  Only God knows Himself completely. Our understanding of God and how He operates is very limited.

Physical Colors exist through human eyes and brain perception standard whether we called it translated freq or by other means.

Spiritual Colors are different and more symbolic. 

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows the true Colors and what it means.

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

God's observation of colours isn't like our observation of colours.

Brother, snake with a night vision capability also not observe colours like humans & humans cannot observe colours the way a whale observe etc. 

14 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did God create colours in the physical world, independent from our conscious observation?

This was your query. And here is your conclusion:

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

God's observation of colours isn't like our observation of colours. He doesn't need to translate wavelengths to see colours. 

Some animals see colors we cannot. Spiders and many insects can see a type of light called ultraviolet that most humans cannot see. Other animals, like snakes, are able to see infrared light.

So yes, God create colours in the physical world, independent of our conscious observation. Our limited capacity cannot see/observe the way He has spread colours around us. 

The colours do exist in the depths of Earth, in the bottom of the Oceans, in the vastness of the space & everywhere. There existence itself gives us the clue for the existence of conscious observer (i.e., God).

 

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The color of our blood, the coloured structure of DNA, colours exist to micro-molecular levels independent of our observation:

Quote

Professors Vadim Backman, Hao Zhang, and Cheng Sun have discovered that macromolecule structures in living cells do, in fact, naturally fluoresce. This finding could open the next frontier of biological discovery by paving a new way for label-free, super-resolution nanoscopic imaging and expanding the understanding of biological processes.

Who is the conscious observer at this level?

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7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This is an interesting perspective. Correct me if I misunderstood you. You're saying that colours are created but not in this world, rather in God's knowledge/mind/nafs. They enter this world, our world, as a manifestation through our consciousness. So, it is our consciousness that "pulls" these abstract objects/qualities from God's nafs/knowledge and brings them to this world. Correct? 

In other words, without our consciousness, these abstract objects/qualities would not descend or enter into our world.  

God has the colours but we "take" it from Him, through our consciousness, to paint our personal realities. Right?

When I mean by manifestation, I mean as God creates it, or bringing them to being to the physical existence with their attributes that conciseness observe their qualities. But the abstract concepts always exist in God knowledge.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cool said:

Who is the conscious observer at this level?

I don't think you understand the issue in this thread. 

Until we and/or other conscious beings exist to perceive these colours, they don't exist in our/this world.

Until consciousness exists in this world, colours don't exist in this world. 

The existence of consciousness (any being that is conscious) is necessary for the existence of colours. 

God's consciousness isn't like that of humans or other creatures. Our consciousness is related to and, at least partially, dependent on our bodies. Through our bodies we translate light into colours. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

When I mean by manifestation, I mean as God creates it, or bringing them to being to the physical existence with their attributes that conciseness observe their qualities. But the abstract concepts always exist in God knowledge.

Right. So, abstract or secondary qualities, such as colours, exist in our physical world, only when there is consciousness present to perceive them. Right? 

The existence of consciousness would be necessary for the existence of secondary/abstract qualities. The latter cannot exist, in this world, without the former.

Edited by SoRoUsH
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37 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Until we and/or other conscious beings exist to perceive these colours, they don't exist in our/this world.

And what I am trying to convey here is that a fresh leaf will remain green whether anyone (conscious beings other than God) observe it or not. 

Because of the fact that the fresh leaf will alway reflect a specific wavelength of light i.e., green irrespective of any observer. 

48 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

The existence of consciousness (any being that is conscious) is necessary for the existence of colours

I would say that existence of light is necessary for the existence of colours. We have tons of evidences about the existence of things which we cannot observe and have not yet observed. Un-observed doesn't mean non-existent. 

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Red-Green and Blue-Yellow are forbidden colours. We cannot see them. Scientifically, They are composed of pairs of hues whose light frequencies automatically cancel each other out in the human eye, they're supposed to be impossible to see simultaneously. Does that mean they don't exist simultaneously? 

Here is an interesting research paper:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/17948-red-green-blue-yellow-stunning-colors.html

 

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