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In the Name of God بسم الله

Quran 9:40 - Abu Bakr in the Cave

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

For once we are on the same page.  And for the first time I had the chance to click 'Completely Agree' on your post. :)

And the Blessed Quran confirms this: I am quoting a few ayahs.

And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie Ayah 116 Surah Al An’am

And most of them do not even believe in God without [also] ascribing divine powers to other beings beside Him –106 Surah Yusuf

Alif Lam Mim Ra. These are the verses of the Book; and that which is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe ayah 1 Surah ar-R’ad

And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant Ayah 111 Al An’am

And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do Ayah 36 Surah Yunus

 And do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle; indeed, they are [even] more lost - Ayah 44 Surah al- Furqan.

What you had stated was about majority of people on the Earth - Which tallies with the above Blessed Ayahs.

I was talking about Majority of Muslims!!!!!!

Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) advising to be with Majority of Muslims!

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 126

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-127-if-you-refuse-stop-claiming

Now, you will come back with a spin that Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was only addressing the Kharijites;
Nasibis hate him, lumping all the Sunnis here; Ghulat Shias love him with exaggeration.  And the 12er Shias are on middle course – right?  And that 12er Shias are ‘great majority of Muslims!

 

Quote the complete sermon:

ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)

للخوارج أيضاً

If you refuse to stop claiming that I have gone wrong and been misled, why do you consider that the common men among the followers of the Prophet Muhammad (S) have gone astray like me, and accuse them with my wrong, and hold them unbelievers on account of my sins. You are holding your swords on your shoulders and using them right and wrong. You are confusing those who have committed sins with those who have not. You know that the Prophet (S) stoned the protected (married) adulterer, then he also said his burial prayer and allowed his successors to inherit from him. He killed the murderer and allowed his successors to inherit from him.

He amputated (the hand of) the thief and whipped the unprotected (unmarried) adulterer, but thereafter allowed their shares from the booty, and they married Muslim women. Thus the Prophet (S) took them to task for their sins and also abided by Allah's commands about them, but did not disallow them their rights created by Islam, nor did he remove their names from its followers.

فإنْ أَبَيْتُمْ إِلاَّ أَنْ تَزْعُمُوا أَنِّي أَخْطَأْتُ وَضَلَلْتُ، فَلِمَ تُضَلِّلونُ عَامَّةَ أُمَّةِ مُحَمَّد(صلى الله عليه وآله) بِضَلاَلِي، وَتَأْخُذُونَهُمْ بِخَطَئِي، وَتُكَفِّرُونَهُمْ بِذُنُوِبي! سُيُوفُكُمْ عَلَى عَوَاتِقِكُمْ تَضَعُونَهَا مَوَاضِعَ البَراءةِ وَالسُّقْمِ، وَتَخْلِطُونَ مَنْ أَذْنَبَ بِمَنْ لَمْ يُذْنِبْ. وَقَدْ عَلِمْتُمْ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله) رَجَمَ الزَّانِيَ [الْـمُحْصَنَ] ثُمَّ صَلَّى عَلَيْهِ ثُمَّ وَرَّثَهُ أَهْلَهُ، وَقَتَلَ الْقَاتِلَ وَوَرَّثَ مِيرَاثَهُ أَهْلَهُ، وَقَطَعَ السَّارِقَ وَجَلَدَ الزَّانِيَ غَيْرَ الْمحْصَنِ ثُمَّ قَسَمَ عَلَيْهِمَا مِنَ الْفَيْءِ وَنَكَحَا الْمُسْلِمَاتِ; فَأَخَذَهُمْ رَسُولُ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) بِذُنُوبِهمْ، وَأَقَامَ حَقَّ اللهِ فِيهمْ، وَلَمْ يَمْنَعْهُمْ سَهْمَهُمْ مِنَ الاْسْلاَمِ، وَلَمْ يُخْرِجْ أَسْمَاءَهُمْ مِنْ بَيْنِ أَهْلِهِ.

Certainly you are the most evil of all persons and are those whom Satan has put on his lines and thrown out into his wayless land. With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf

While addressing Khawarij, Imam (عليه السلام) said to them be with the Great Majority referring to his own party.

And Allah's protection and guidance was there because Ali is with Haq and Haq is with Ali, Ali is the Bab Madinah tul Ilm, Ali is with Quran , Quran is with Ali (عليه السلام).

Again, stoping mis quoting and mis using shia sources.

W.S

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

 

I am good to accept this defeat because I cannot utter a word in disrespect of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) because not only thqt would be offensive but false at the same time. If anything I had to criticise I might have taken that challenge. But the personality of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is not like that. I can't speak. I fear Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I can't even ask you or any brother to do so. But I said what I said on the basis of what I see and feel. 

See the above video and also this :

 

I agree brother that there are proofs of many shias who deviated towards becoming a ghaali but there are many proofs of certain Sunnis who all out became Nasibi. I won't go in depth.

Salaam brother - May Allah Almighty bless you for your noble thoughts.  That's why it very important to keep in middle than to get to extremes. 

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Why don't you start a thread on this topic separately? Then we'll see who believes in Tehreef in Book of Allah.

Condition is first you'll need to make it clear the status whoever believes in addition or subtraction in Quran or any verse whether he is misguided, kafir o murtad (apostate) etc

No need. I have already said too much in this thread. It's last 10 tens of Ramadan.  I do miss brothers Nightclaw  & Cherub786 - They would have kept you busy.

 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

While addressing Khawarij, Imam (عليه السلام) said to them be with the Great Majority referring to his own party.

And Allah's protection and guidance was there because Ali is with Haq and Haq is with Ali, Ali is the Bab Madinah tul Ilm, Ali is with Quran , Quran is with Ali (عليه السلام).

Again, stoping mis quoting and mis using shia sources.

I knew beforehand you will say this: "While addressing Khawarij, Imam (عليه السلام) said to them be with the Great Majority referring to his own party."

Misquoting????? 

Anyway this is my post for a while.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I was talking about Majority of Muslims!!!!!!

Thanks for your reply.

Can you please quote a verse that minority in the quran were not believers but majority was, keeping in view the examples of earlier nations?

This is necessary before your any view can be discussed further. 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Nightclaw

If you are his fan, i suggest you to read my discussion with him over context of Ghadeer e khum.

Make sure to check out!

He wasn't seen active on S.C after that :D

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

If you are his fan, i suggest you to read my discussion with him over context of Ghadeer e khum.

Make sure to check out!

He wasn't seen active on S.C after that :D

Where’s it at akhi?

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5 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

If you are his fan, i suggest you to read my discussion with him over context of Ghadeer e khum.

Make sure to check out!

He wasn't seen active on S.C after that :D

He could not behave and follow the rules, he is banned member.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2021 at 11:34 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Can you please quote a verse that minority in the quran were not believers but majority was, keeping in view the examples of earlier nations?

This is necessary before your any view can be discussed further. 

Since no answer has been received from sunni brother I here quote my reply in the light of verses of quran:

Some Muslims have no other argument to support their views apart from the argument of majority and consensus . They believe they are right only because they are in majority and Shias are deviated because they are in a minority.

Reply

Even a cursory glance at the Holy Quran is sufficient to prove where Islam stands on the majority-minority debate.  Allah the High has never considered majority as a standard of truth; in fact, the truth is to the contrary. History is witness that the majority has always been against the truth for which they have been condemned in no uncertain terms.

The Holy Quran has criticized the majority:

And what reason have you that you should not eat of that on which Allah’s name has been mentioned, and He has already made plain to you what He has forbidden to you– excepting what you are compelled to; and most surely many would lead (people) astray by their low desires out of ignorance; surely your Lord– He best knows those who exceed the limits.

Surah Anaam (6): Verse 119

And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.

Surah Yunus (10): Verse 36

......more

The Holy Quran has praised the minority

On the other hand, there are instances where the Holy Quran has praised the minority.

And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.

Surah Baqarah (2): Verse 83

And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them).

Surah Nisa (4): Verse 66

......more 

These were just some of the verses condemning the majority and praising the minority. They are sufficient to disprove the argument of the Muslims that the majority is right and the minority is wrong

https://www.seratonline.com/25043/does-the-majority-have-any-importance-verdict-of-the-holy-quran/

 As we have seen from the Holy Quran, the minority is rightly guided and the majority is deviated. So Muslims must do a rethink about trumpeting their majority and mocking the Shias for being in a minority.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 5/3/2021 at 10:47 PM, Debate follower said:

I knew beforehand you will say this: "While addressing Khawarij, Imam (عليه السلام) said to them be with the Great Majority referring to his own party."

Misquoting????? 

Anyway this is my post for a while.

Also great majority is Twelver Shias. Ask me how? :D (Warning: Takfeer incoming)

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2021 at 9:40 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Certainly you are the most evil of all persons and are those whom Satan has put on his lines and thrown out into his wayless land. With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf

While addressing Khawarij, Imam (عليه السلام) said to them be with the Great Majority referring to his own party.

And Allah's protection and guidance was there because Ali is with Haq and Haq is with Ali, Ali is the Bab Madinah tul Ilm, Ali is with Quran , Quran is with Ali (عليه السلام).

I like to add the following for further clarification that the same is mentioned by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in other sermons in clear words too,

ثُمَّ أَنْتُمْ شِرَارُ النَّاسِ، وَمَنْ رَمَى بِهِ الشَّيْطَانُ مَرَامِيَهُ، وَضَرَبَ بِهِ تِيهَهُ ! وَسَيَهْلِكُ فِيَّ صِنْفَانِ: مُحِبٌّ مُفْرِطٌ يَذْهَبُ بِهِ الْحُبُّ إِلَى غَيْرِ الْحَقِّ، وَمُبْغِضٌ مُفْرِطٌ يَذْهَبُ بِهِ الْبُغْضُ إِلَى غَيْرِ الْحَقِّ، وَخَيْرُ النَّاسِ فيَّ حَالاً الَّنمَطُ الاْوْسَطُ فَالْزَمُوهُ، وَالْزَمُوا السَّوَادَ الاَعْظَم فَإِنَّ يَدَ اللهِ مَعَ الْجَمَاعَةِ، وَإِيَّاكُمْ وَالْفُرْقَةَ! فَإِنَّ الشَّاذَّ مِنَ النَّاسِ لِلشَّيْطَانِ، كَمَا أَنَّ الشَّاذَّةَ مِنَ الْغَنَمِ لِلذِّئْبِ.

from the same sermon the words of الْجَمَاعَةِ and الْفُرْقَة   have been used that have also been mentioned in the other sermons of Imam even present in sunni sources, the following is also added for clarity:

 Imam Ali peace be upon him gave us a thorough definition for the term Jammah (.الْجَمَاعَةِ). Al Mutaqi Al Hindi, a prominent Sunni scholar, in Kanzu Al Umal vol 16 page 184 said that Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a ( الْجَمَاعَةِ)? Who are the people of disunity and dissension(الْفُرْقَة )? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a , they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number . That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet (peace be upon him and his family). As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers. As for the people of Sunna ( traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovation, they include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

People of Jamaa - 1.png

People of Jamaa - 1-2.png

People of Jamaa - 1-3.png

People of Jamaa - 1-4.png

 Also Imam Ali mentions in Sermon no. 200: Nehjul Balagha 

 One should not be afraid of the scarcity of those who tread on the right path

 O' people, do not wonder at the small number of those who follow the right path, because people throng only round the table (of this world) whose edibles are few but whose hunger is insatiable.

wasalam

 

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)

Sakina is Belief/faith and God increased the faith of Prophet Muhammad (saws) in the cave but not Abu Bakr.  "Do not grieve. Allah is surely with us." refers to the weakness of Abu Bakr faith. There is absolute nothing respect to Abu Bakr in this verse.

As for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sacrificing his life for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) pleasure, God reveled this verse:

And among men there is one who sells his very soul to seek the pleasure of Allah, and Allah is Very-Kind to His servants. 2:207

This is again some signs to those who have vision in their Heart. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) faith is greater than Abu Bakr, this is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have included Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the one who is the SELF of the Prophet Muhammad (saws). 

"But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and ourselves and yourselves, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars."[Quran 3:61]

Only the one who is the self of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the one who is higher than anyone in faith who live among deserve to be his true successor.

Edited by Abu Nur
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