Quran 9:40 - Abu Bakr in the Cave

[Ahmed Al-Basrawi]

Salaam and Ramadan Kareem,

Please read my detailed analysis in the link below, on the topic of Abu Bakr in the cave, as addressed by the Quran in 9:40.

https://myunderstandingofislam.blogspot.com/2021/04/quran-940-abu-bakr-in-cave.html

Inshallah this will be a lively and fruitful discussion.

Best wishes, Ahmed.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

1 hour ago, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

Salaam and Ramadan Kareem,

Please read my detailed analysis in the link below, on the topic of Abu Bakr in the cave, as addressed by the Quran in 9:40.

https://myunderstandingofislam.blogspot.com/2021/04/quran-940-abu-bakr-in-cave.html

Inshallah this will be a lively and fruitful discussion.

Best wishes, Ahmed.

Yes he was in cave with Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). What does this prove?

If a person were to accompany me then he'll be my companion (Sahabi) i will be his companion.

This doesn't prove we are loyal to each other or are very Good Friends.

Sunnis are obsessed with word Sahabi Lol

Edited April 30, 2021 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

1) Apparently the Belief that Allah(عزّ وجلّ) did not appoint and Muhammad Al-Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) did not announce the Successor.

2) And No clear criteria was given in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) for choosing a successor .

(Both go back directly to Allah(عزّ وجلّ) ,  issue with Tawheed, and the responsibility of this 1400 years disunity  and killings). 

Now , people Need to be supplement by these type of implied events to prove succession. In this case if you were to look at ALL the evidence, from the beginning till the end and afterwards. and the commonsense criteria of succession - the most learned and with wisdom. You will acknowledge the one who you think was not appointed to lead /protect the Religion will come out to be the only person for the job. Kind of , Divine justice. 

Unless your idea is of a state/empire building which is not what Islam is. 

[Debate follower]

15 hours ago, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

Salaam and Ramadan Kareem,

Please read my detailed analysis in the link below, on the topic of Abu Bakr in the cave, as addressed by the Quran in 9:40.

https://myunderstandingofislam.blogspot.com/2021/04/quran-940-abu-bakr-in-cave.html

Inshallah this will be a lively and fruitful discussion.

Best wishes, Ahmed.

Salaam and Ramadan Kareem - Extracting the last paragraphs from your Blog

Quote

 

His words are so beautiful that you feel inclined towards him, for he deceptively misled by making evil seem good, and was disturbingly effective at it. Satan’s favourite trick must be to distort the religion through the religion, because it has proven the most successful. Abu Bakr did not practice Islam to serve Allah. Abu Bakr exploited Islam to serve Satan.

It brings to mind a verse: “And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - satans from mankind and jinn, inspiring each other with decorative speech by way of deception. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.” (6:112). Islam is pure monotheism and came to uproot idolatry. When the idols were outward and physical, the enemy was obvious and could be crushed. Abu Lahab failed. When the idols were inward and spiritual, the enemy was dressed in the robe of faith and took custodianship of Islam. Abu Bakr succeeded. He began waging hard wars to conquer the surrounding land, because he craved power. Then, under that constant distraction, he waged a soft war against Imam Ali to manage his influence, so he can steer Islam in his own direction, by being selective in what he pushed forward and pulled back. In Nahjul Balagha, we find Imam Ali himself gave us a description of people like Abu Bakr: “They have made Satan the master of their affairs, and he has taken them as partners. He has laid eggs and hatched them in their bosoms. He creeps and crawls in their laps. He sees through their eyes, and speaks with their tongues.” We read in the hadith literature that the Prophet had foretold the spread of Islam to every corner of the world. It seems Abu Bakr was enticed with the vain desire for legacy, to be remembered and celebrated as the foremost. And he got what he wanted. It shows how small the world is in the sight of Allah, for if the prizes here had any real glory, as opposed to being a mirage, then Allah would not let him have it. Abu Bakr was the devil incarnate.

 

Thank Goodness, you have titled your Blog “My Understanding of Islam”, your very painstakingly written article, craftily disguised as ‘scholarly research work’, exactly reveals Islam from your own understanding only, full stop.

It is full of speculative conjectures and self-serving assumptions. Your last paragraphs reveal your spiteful mindset and attitude towards the status of Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him).  With keeping this mind, your article is understandable.
Here, on Shiachat you will definitely get a lot of accolades and pats on the back, no doubt about it.  Put blog of yours on some serious Boards and you will see it ripped to smithereens.

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it. 33 surat At-Tawbah

Allah Almighty has vowed to make Islam succeed and prevail over all other religions.  Historical facts have proved that anybody who stood against Islam and the Blessed Prophet’s (Peace and Blessings be upon him) Noble Mission was humiliated and destroyed.  And history is witness to this.

Nothing ever happens without Allah Almighty’s WILL.

 Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) is buried in the same chamber only half a meter from the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him). What a great honour from Allah Almighty!

Billions of sincere Muslims who have or had the privilege of visiting the Blessed Prophet’s (Peace and Blessings be upon him) resting place and pay respects and salutations upon him since last 1500 years ago, have only have to take half a step to the right to pay respects to Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him)!!! (If you take another half a step to the right …………………….. Let’s leave it here.  I don’t want to give you a heartburn.)

What a great honour from Allah Almighty! But with your mindset you will be oblivious to it.

Above you quoted from Nahjul Balagha – Take the following too, from same source.

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً،

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance  to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph (In Arabic the word Uttered is IMAM) it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. – extract from letter 6 Nahjul Balagha. 

Enough said!

Edited April 30, 2021 by Debate follower
grammar ;)

[Debate follower]

14 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Yes he was in cave with Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). What does this prove?

If a person were to accompany me then he'll be my companion (Sahabi) i will be his companion.

This doesn't prove we are loyal to each other or are very Good Friends.

Sunnis are obsessed with word Sahabi Lol

Of course, this sort of response is expected from you!

The Blessed Hijra was one of the most momentous event in the Blessed Seerah of the Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him).  This was not like one of your holiday or shopping trips to the Mall where you take one of your companions on hand with you.

This is serious and crucial trip to escape from Makkah, with all the Mushrikeen out to kill you, to Madinah.

The Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) chose Hazrat Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as a cover for himself, to hoodwink the Mushrikeens.   Shias point to greatness of Hazrat Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in his eagerness and bravely taking on this life-threatening task.  And Rightly so!

Here the Shias will declare it to be a great choice!

Similarly, The Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) chose Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) his best and most loyal friend to accompany him for this Blessed journey. 
The Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) no doubt, chose a person who not only was his most trusted loyal friend but a great company too. What a pleasant Blessed historical Journey! 

Here the Shias will declare it to be a bad choice!

Or just blame it on Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) by saying he conspiringly imposed himself to accompany the Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) while he himself was in league with the Mushrikeen to reveal their whereabouts!!! Blind Hatred has no limits!

Can’t win!!!!!!!!

Enough said, I’ll say no more in this post!

Edited April 30, 2021 by Debate follower
grammar ;)

[Ahmed Al-Basrawi]

Salaam,

I simply wanted to understand who was right - Ahlus Sunnah or the Shia - so I turned to the book of Allah for guidance, and followed it to where it led me. I posted my analysis of 9:40 in the link found in the initial post. I stand open to be corrected, for it's not my intention to misguide others or be misguided myself.

The analysis is long, so I understand most viewers will not bother reading it.

But two caveats if I may, because it's a sensitive topic that is already derailing into nonsense:
1. Please don't respond unless you've read it carefully from start to finish, not jumping to the conclusion.
2. Please refute with calm logic, pointing out any flaws in my interpretation or deduction, not with emotional reactions.

For full disclosure, I have now created a similar post on a popular Sunni forum here: https://www.islamicboard.com/qur-an/134358095-quran-9-40-abu-bakr-cave.html

May Allah bless you all.

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

Salaam,

I simply wanted to understand who was right - Ahlus Sunnah or the Shia - so I turned to the book of Allah for guidance, and followed it to where it led me. I posted my analysis of 9:40 in the link found in the initial post. I stand open to be corrected, for it's not my intention to misguide others or be misguided myself

Thanks for your detailed analysis brother.

The article is quite long and seems difficult for an average reader to go through all details.  This requires that atleast a part of conclusions from your thoughts should also be included in summarized manner that will lead to proper understanding of your own views.

However the shia and sunni views by their scholars are evidently known.

wasalam

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ahmed Al-Basrawi]

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your detailed analysis brother.

The article is quite long and seems difficult for an average reader to go through all details.  This requires that atleast a part of conclusions from your thoughts should also be included in summarized manner that will lead to proper understanding of your own views.

However the shia and sunni views by their scholars are evidently known.

wasalam

 

Salaam, thank you for the feedback, I agree it can be difficult and exhausting to follow. I tried to give a comprehensive explanation of the verse, e.g. the context behind revelation, the two interpretations, how the Prophet (ع) is glorified, etc. But much of it is not relevant to my central argument on Abu Bakr.

 

For the central argument on Abu Bakr, please read only the passages under these 3 subheadings, inshallah that will simplify it: The Second of Two - Trust in Allah - The Prophecy.

In summary:

The Second of Two - shows Abu Bakr was a believer but no merits can apply to him.

Trust in Allah - shows Abu Bakr lacked trust in Allah in the cave, so he was a believer struggling with faith.

The Prophecy - shows Abu Bakr lacking trust in Allah was not a momentary lapse, but a general disregard for Allah, so he was a fallen believer like Satan.

 

The Quran makes a damning comparison between Abu Bakr and the companions of Prophet Moses (ع), because like him, they were believers who were trapped and defenceless against an attack, and they lacked trust in Allah before being miraculously saved. They went on to disregard the deputy placed in charge of them, Prophet Aaron (ع), implying Abu Bakr would do the same to Imam Ali.

 

This forms the basis of my conclusion and that was: “9:40 is the only verse in which the Quran shone a spotlight on Abu Bakr. It turned away from the outer merits we assume for him, exposed his inner disregard for Allah, and drew a comparison with a rebellious group of believers. And that leads us to only one conclusion. This is Allah warning us: do not be fooled by his religiosity, the man had no sincerity in his faith, lest you are swept away by his rebellion. The verse 9:40 was a prophecy of the Shia view.”

 

The final passage, under the subheading The Great Threat, is my attempt to make sense of the conclusion I reached. I looked to the Quran, the biography of Abu Bakr, how the Prophet (ع) reacted to 9:40 being revealed, and how Imam Ali (ع) described a demonic believer. This is inherently quite speculative, because you can interpret what happened in different ways. But the analysis leading to my conclusion applies strict logic that is either true or false.

[Ahmed Al-Basrawi]

11 hours ago, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

Salaam,

I simply wanted to understand who was right - Ahlus Sunnah or the Shia - so I turned to the book of Allah for guidance, and followed it to where it led me. I posted my analysis of 9:40 in the link found in the initial post. I stand open to be corrected, for it's not my intention to misguide others or be misguided myself.

The analysis is long, so I understand most viewers will not bother reading it.

But two caveats if I may, because it's a sensitive topic that is already derailing into nonsense:
1. Please don't respond unless you've read it carefully from start to finish, not jumping to the conclusion.
2. Please refute with calm logic, pointing out any flaws in my interpretation or deduction, not with emotional reactions.

For full disclosure, I have now created a similar post on a popular Sunni forum here: https://www.islamicboard.com/qur-an/134358095-quran-9-40-abu-bakr-cave.html

May Allah bless you all.

 

Update: the post on the Sunni forum was deleted with this message to me:

 

"You have been banned for the following reason:

You cannot fall lower than this. How will face the Prophet :saws: on Qiyamah while harboring such lies about the Prophet's closest companion? Fear Allah and repent before it is too late.

Date the ban will be lifted: Never"

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

@Debate follower

I would like to clear one thing that you don't seem to know about Shia Beliefs.

Shias consider them ( Ashaab ) Muslims including the three till they broke their oath with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made at Ghadeer e Khum.

Therefore, what you wrote doesn't really matter. 

[power]

On 4/30/2021 at 5:26 PM, Debate follower said:

Nothing ever happens without Allah Almighty’s WILL.

 Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) is buried in the same chamber only half a meter from the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him). What a great honour from Allah Almighty!

Billions of sincere Muslims who have or had the privilege of visiting the Blessed Prophet’s (Peace and Blessings be upon him) resting place and pay respects and salutations upon him since last 1500 years ago, have only have to take half a step to the right to pay respects to Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him)!!! (If you take another half a step to the right …………………….. Let’s leave it here.  I don’t want to give you a heartburn.)

 

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says:  ”O you who have believed, do not enter houses other than your own houses until you ascertain welcome and greet their inhabitants. That is best for you; perhaps you will be reminded. And if you do not find anyone therein, do not enter them until permission has been given you. And if it is said to you, ‘Go back,’ then go back; it is purer for you. And Allah is Knowing of what you do. There is no blame upon you for entering houses not inhabited in which there is convenience for you. And Allah knows what you reveal and what you conceal.” (An-Nur: 27-29)

So in light of the above verse, did Abu bakr or Umar seek permission to be buried in Rasulallah's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) house before demise ? If not then its a violation of Alllah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) command! 

[Debate follower]

Salaam Ahmed Al-Basrawi

If you think that you have God-given right to dish out criticism to others, then should learn to accept it from others, however trivial.  You seem to be so sensitive getting criticism and very generous dishing it out.

On 5/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

I simply wanted to understand who was right - Ahlus Sunnah or the Shia - so I turned to the book of Allah for guidance, and followed it to where it led me.

The Blessed Quran didn’t lead you BUT your own interpretation of it and your preconceived knowledge and disposition led you to your conclusions – It is very evident from your article and your choice of words.

Even Ahmadis/Qadianis and Quranists claim to have “turned to the book of Allah for guidance and followed it” – See where it has led them.   They too, interpret the Blessed Quran to their OWN understanding!

On 5/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

I simply wanted to understand who was right - Ahlus Sunnah or the Shia

Did you even bother to understand the stance of Ahlus Sunnah?  So how can you claim that you “SIMPLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHO WAS RIGHT” without their input?!?
Can you now see how biased is your journey to find the truth was?

On 5/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

I stand open to be corrected

Your reaction to my very brief post

On 5/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

because it's a sensitive topic that is already derailing into nonsense:

Very touchy!

On 5/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

Please don't respond unless you've read it carefully from start to finish, not jumping to the conclusion.

Trust me, I read your article not once but twice so to get full gist of what had to say.  I do appreciate all the hard work and time it took you to write it.  That’s why it said acknowledging your effort and time:

On 4/30/2021 at 5:26 PM, Debate follower said:

your very painstakingly written article

 

[Debate follower]

On 5/1/2021 at 1:01 PM, Ahmed Al-Basrawi said:

 

Update: the post on the Sunni forum was deleted with this message to me:

"You have been banned for the following reason:

You cannot fall lower than this. How will face the Prophet :saws: on Qiyamah while harboring such lies about the Prophet's closest companion? Fear Allah and repent before it is too late.

Date the ban will be lifted: Never"

 

Considering what you had written their response was very polite with very good advice.  If you had written an article about Hazrat Ali Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in same vein, their response would have been the same.

I had promised you that you will get a lot of accolades and pats on the back here on Shiachat – be happy you hard work and research is being appreciated by some.

On 4/30/2021 at 5:26 PM, Debate follower said:

Here, on Shiachat you will definitely get a lot of accolades and pats on the back, no doubt about it.  Put blog of yours on some serious Boards and you will see it ripped to smithereens.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Debate follower
grammar ;)

[Debate follower]

23 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@Debate follower

I would like to clear one thing that you don't seem to know about Shia Beliefs.

Shias consider them ( Ashaab ) Muslims including the three till they broke their oath with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made at Ghadeer e Khum.

Therefore, what you wrote doesn't really matter. 

Trust me, I do know enough about Shia beliefs that matter.  Also, I do know the real stance of Shias on the prominent Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him). And what treatment awaits most prominent among them from your twelfth Imam!

I am also aware that what I wrote really won’t matter to you – But it does matter to 87 - 90% billions of Muslims!
Reality on the ground speaks for itself.

Many nutcases in the West desecrate and defile the Blessed name of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), it hurts us all the Muslims, but does it lower the High Station of the Blessed Prophet ((peace and blessings be upon him) in the 'Eyes' of Allah, the Prophets, (peace be them all) and all the Muslims? 

Say, "O Allah , Owner of Sovereignty, You give sovereignty to whom You will and You take sovereignty away from whom You will. You honor whom You will and You humble whom You will. In Your hand is [all] good. Indeed, You are over all things competent. – The Blessed Quran 26 Surat al Im'ran

[Zainuu]

11 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

If you written an article about Hazrat Ali Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) in same vein, their response would have been the same.

I seriously doubt that same would happen if someone criticises Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on that forum.

[Debate follower]

^ Okay prove me wrong and write the same WORDS as in the 'article' about Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and post it on any Sunni site. And see the response!
Google for virtues of  Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). See it on Sunni sites. On personal note, I have one son, and I have named him Ali. My Iraqi friends always address me as 'Abu Ali'!

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

51 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Trust me, I do know enough about Shia beliefs that matter.

 

On 4/30/2021 at 9:34 PM, Debate follower said:

Or just blame it on Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) by saying he conspiringly imposed himself to accompany the Blessed Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) while he himself was in league with the Mushrikeen to reveal their whereabouts!!! Blind Hatred has no limits!

Can’t win!!!!!!!!

Enough said, I’ll say no more in this post!

there is no need of it when in Shia Islam, everyone was considered a Muslim till they broke their Oath at Ghadeer.

And you should also add this belief to list of Shia Beliefs you've saved.

Therefore quoting this will prove nothing against shias.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

53 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Also, I do know the real stance of Shias on the prominent Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him). And what treatment awaits most prominent among them from your twelfth Imam!

I am also aware that what I wrote really won’t matter to you – But it does matter to 87 - 90% billions of Muslims!
Reality on the ground speaks for itself.

be an Honest Sunni, and please answer my Question,

Would a person, who's been taught that A,B companions burned down the door on daughter of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and snatched right of family of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from them and dis obeyed them and Broke their Oath with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Messenger really remember such companions in Good words?

While you people respect them because according to you they were faithful and Loyal companions. Therefore love/hate by sunns/shias is in the end related with their attitude and loyality for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

One's who followed Sources that praise them, they remember them in good words and they praise them due to their love for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

One's who followed Sources that expose their evil deeds, they curse them due to their hate for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Family.

Rather then quoting selective content from opponent's books, one must first go and look for Usool of that Mazhab rather than discussing specific personalities if they were praiseworthy or not. Else it would always lead to hate and Fitnah because you'll never agree with my sources, i will never agree with yours.

First debate / discuss Usool Al-Mazhab (the core beliefs) and their proofs in Quran / Sunnah.

Religion that dominates the other in this section is Haq.

[Zainuu]

32 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Okay prove me wrong and write the same WORDS as in the 'article' about Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and post it on any Sunni site. And see the response!

Below me to waste my time on this!

32 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Google for virtues of  Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). See it on Sunni sites. On personal note, I have one son, and I have named him Ali. My Iraqi friends always address me as 'Abu Ali'!

No doubt on your respect brother. But I had certain experiences where I found that in many sunni circles they even avoid to take the name of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) often. 

In fact, one of my hindu friend created a fake account as a shia on a salafi website where he acted as a faithless shia who suddenpy starts to show interest in religion.

He asked them question about shia belief on Imam Ali (عليه السلام). And they lied straigth away by saying tha4th 'Shias worship Ali (AS)' (Naudhubillah).

When asked about Hazrat Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه), answer was straigth that he died an unbeliever and is in hell (naudhubillah).

They were doing an online dawah btw and asked my friend to convert. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 4/30/2021 at 9:26 PM, Debate follower said:

Take the following too, from same source.

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً،

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance  to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph (In Arabic the word Uttered is IMAM) it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. – extract from letter 6 Nahjul Balagha. 

Enough said!

Yes.

There are some points that we Shias have highlighted several times regarding this reference.

Number one -> This is a letter to Muawiyah Bin Abi Sufyan. (Not a Sermon)

You, I and every sensible person knows, that when we need to prove something to our opponent, we use sources and evidences that are Hujjah for opponent not the one quoting them.

Muwaiyah Bin Abi Sufyan did Bayah of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Usman on the basis that they were choosen imams by Muhajireen and Ansaar.

And Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was choosen in the same way but when Muwayah Bin Abi Sufyan refused to give Bayah, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used the same principles that Muawiyah followed when he did Bayah of First three Caliphs, that were Hujjah for Muawiyah and also proved Imam Ali (عليه السلام)'s caliphate on his own Usool.

This is the reason Imam (عليه السلام) wrote this letter to Muawiyah. Because he accepted previous caliphs on basis that they were imams since they were choosen by ijma of Muhajireen and Ansaar, Imam (عليه السلام) used Muawiyah's own principles to prove his caliphate to Muawiyah.

That doesn't mean Imam Ali (عليه السلام) believed in this.

its just like if i quote Bukhari to prove Ismah of caliphs after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). That doesn't mean i believe in Bukhari.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

Rather this is What Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used to believe about imamate:

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said:

‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying: Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. “Isn`t it Allah Who has authority over the believers?” They said: Yes. He said: `O Allah, if I am a person`s mawla then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, love those who love him, and take them as enemies who take him as an enemy.” A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.` A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih,  Reference : Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952 book reference : Book 5, Hadith 377

He used to Gather People and remind them of what the were told at Ghadeer e Khum.

[Abu Nur]

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

I seriously doubt that same would happen if someone criticises Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on that forum.

Post ayyobi guy post in quora and let see if they ban you.

https://www.quora.com/As-a-Sunni-Muslim-how-do-you-consider-Umayyad-Banu-Umayya

Edited May 2, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Rather this is What Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used to believe about imamate:

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said:

‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying: Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. “Isn`t it Allah Who has authority over the believers?” They said: Yes. He said: `O Allah, if I am a person`s mawla then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, love those who love him, and take them as enemies who take him as an enemy.” A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.` A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih,  Reference : Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952 book reference : Book 5, Hadith 377

He used to Gather People and remind them of what the were told at Ghadeer e Khum.

This is very important narration. In Saqifa they failed to support Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and forsake him. This is clear proof for anyone who have eyes in heart to see and understand.

[Zainuu]

5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Post ayyobi guy post in quora and let see if they ban you.

https://www.quora.com/As-a-Sunni-Muslim-how-do-you-consider-Umayyad-Banu-Umayya

I mean lying is one thing and being offensive, the other. Salafis never dare to criticize anyone saying wrong about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). All there Sahaba love dies at that point. But as soon as you pick a handful of sahaba, suddenly 'advocates of sahaba' are in there suits.

Here is Uthman al Khamees trying to justify the Battle of Siffin. Finally, ending up indicating that as if it was the 'mistake' of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This is a trick and tactic by the scholars of ibn Taymiyah's school.

 

And we should not forget the remarks of ibn Taymiya on the verse that says that Salaat is haraam in the situation if the person is drunk.

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am also aware that what I wrote really won’t matter to you – But it does matter to 87 - 90% billions of Muslims!
Reality on the ground speaks for itself.

Following the majority of people on the earth is prohibited according to the verses of quran.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ahmed Al-Basrawi]

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Quran didn’t lead you BUT your own interpretation of it and your preconceived knowledge and disposition led you to your conclusions – It is very evident from your article and your choice of words.

 

Why not refute my argument instead of raising irrelevant points to distract from it? Why not refute my argument instead of speculating on my sincerity so you can dig your head in the sand? My argument against Abu Bakr is very simple - every uncomfortable implication is derived from a single point - that he lacked trust in Allah in the cave. So refute this single point, found in two paragraphs that I have reposted below for your convenience. Then you have dismantled my whole argument against Abu Bakr, and may Allah bless you for correcting my understanding, and I will delete those incorrect parts of the blog post that are misguiding people.

 

Allah sending angels shows the sheer gravity of their danger in the cave, because angels were sent in the battles of Badr, Khandaq and Hunayn when the Muslims were in desperate trouble. The situation was perilous here, because the Prophet and Abu Bakr could hear the assassins outside scouring the area, with them trapped and defenceless inside the cave, which is the obvious hiding place. And that brings us to notice a resemblance between Prophet Lot and Abu Bakr. In the Quran, angels paid Prophet Lot a surprise visit in the form of male human beings, and he lived in a community where gay rape of strangers was rampant, so he became very worried for the dignity and safety of his guests. When a mob arrived to harass them, the angels disclosed to him their real identity, then he realised they can’t be harmed. So, in their respective predicaments, Prophet Lot and Abu Bakr were not the target of the aggressors, but they were protecting the target and they were outnumbered. The angels reassured Prophet Lot with the statement “do not fear and do not grieve” (29:33), whereas Prophet Muhammad reassured Abu Bakr with the statement “do not grieve; indeed Allah is with us” (9:40). How should we understand this difference in speech?

 

Prophet Lot feared what could happen to his guests and grieved at his inability to protect them from it. Abu Bakr felt grief at his inability to protect Prophet Muhammad, but not fear. Why? Fear arises from envisioning a dire outcome in the face of uncertainty. So, to Abu Bakr, it seemed there was no uncertainty, it was a matter of “when” not “if”. In other words, Prophet Lot thought “this could happen and I cannot stop it”, whereas Abu Bakr thought “this will happen and I cannot stop it”. And that unveils a problem. Why was it a foregone conclusion to Abu Bakr? They were not alone and helpless, because Allah was fully present and is almighty, even within a dark cave of uninhabited terrain. Allah was watching and listening, like He told Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron (20:46). Nothing can occur without His permission. A possible intervention from Allah was recognised by Prophet Lot but not by Abu Bakr. It shows Abu Bakr lacked trust in Allah. Hence, Prophet Muhammad told Abu Bakr that Allah is with them, whereas the angels didn't need to remind Prophet Lot. The Quran declared the correct attitude of a believer: “Say [O Prophet]: ‘Never will we be struck except by what Allah has decreed for us; He is our protector.’ And upon Allah let the believers put their trust.” (9:51). The comforting reassurance from Prophet Muhammad in the cave conveyed his disapproval of Abu Bakr for having the wrong attitude. Abu Bakr was a believer struggling with faith in the cave.

 

[Debate follower]

13 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Following the majority of people on the earth is prohibited according to the verses of quran.

 

For once we are on the same page.  And for the first time I had the chance to click 'Completely Agree' on your post. 

And the Blessed Quran confirms this: I am quoting a few ayahs.

And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie Ayah 116 Surah Al An’am

And most of them do not even believe in God without [also] ascribing divine powers to other beings beside Him –106 Surah Yusuf

Alif Lam Mim Ra. These are the verses of the Book; and that which is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe – ayah 1 Surah ar-R’ad

And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant Ayah 111 Al An’am

And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do Ayah 36 Surah Yunus

 And do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle; indeed, they are [even] more lost - Ayah 44 Surah al- Furqan.

What you had stated was about majority of people on the Earth - Which tallies with the above Blessed Ayahs.

I was talking about Majority of Muslims!!!!!!

23 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am also aware that what I wrote really won’t matter to you – But it does matter to 87 - 90% billions of Muslims!
Reality on the ground speaks for itself.

Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) advising to be with Majority of Muslims!

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 126

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-127-if-you-refuse-stop-claiming

Now, you will come back with a spin that Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was only addressing the Kharijites;
Nasibis hate him, lumping all the Sunnis here; Ghulat Shias love him with exaggeration.  And the 12er Shias are on middle course – right?  And that 12er Shias are ‘great majority of Muslims!

 

[Debate follower]

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Below me to waste my time on this!

Salaams Then your claim is rejected outright!

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

No doubt on your respect brother. But I had certain experiences where I found that in many sunni circles they even avoid to take the name of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) often. 

I really surprised to read this!  Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) the fourth Righteous Khaleef. One of 10 Promised Paradise by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) He is 5 of Ahl al-Kisa.  In every Sunni Mosque including the two Haraam (Makkah and Madinah) in the Friday Khutbah the names of 5 of Ahl al-Kisa and other members of Ahlul Bayt are mentioned and are honoured! This is done every Friday in every Sunni mosque!

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

In fact, one of my hindu friend created a fake account as a shia on a salafi website where he acted as a faithless shia who suddenpy starts to show interest in religion.

He asked them question about shia belief on Imam Ali (عليه السلام). And they lied straigth away by saying tha4th 'Shias worship Ali (AS)' (Naudhubillah).

There are ignorant people out there.  Fortunately, there are very few who lump Alawis, Shaykhi, Nusayri Akhbari beliefs into common Shia belief – You can see Akhbari 12er Shias still hold to the Belief that the Blessed Quran is tampered (Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran) No. !3 in the following link.  Ten years ago I, too believed the same until I learnt the Usuli 12er Shia don’t hold this view

http://www.akhbari.org/differences.htm

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

When asked about Hazrat Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه), answer was straigth that he died an unbeliever and is in hell (naudhubillah).

This is common Sunni belief (accept sufi leaning groups) according to our authentic hadith literature.  Many, Many, most prominent Companions, likes of Hz. Umar Al Khattab, Hz. Khalid bin Al Waleed Hz. Ikrima ibn Abi Jahl (may Allah be pleased with them all), their father’s did not accept Islam. 
Similarly, Shias also believe that most of the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) bar a few are bound for hell because this is in your authentic books.

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

They were doing an online dawah btw and asked my friend to convert

I think this is fair enough.  Won’t you do the same (give dawah to) if some Sunni who pretended (just like your Hindu friend pretended to be faithless Shia) a faithless Sunni?   

Edited May 3, 2021 by Debate follower
Forgot to say Salaam first

[Debate follower]

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Yes.

There are some points that we Shias have highlighted several times regarding this reference.

Number one -> This is a letter to Muawiyah Bin Abi Sufyan. (Not a Sermon)

You, I and every sensible person knows, that when we need to prove something to our opponent, we use sources and evidences that are Hujjah for opponent not the one quoting them.

Muwaiyah Bin Abi Sufyan did Bayah of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Usman on the basis that they were choosen imams by Muhajireen and Ansaar.

And Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was choosen in the same way but when Muwayah Bin Abi Sufyan refused to give Bayah, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used the same principles that Muawiyah followed when he did Bayah of First three Caliphs, that were Hujjah for Muawiyah and also proved Imam Ali (عليه السلام)'s caliphate on his own Usool.

This is the reason Imam (عليه السلام) wrote this letter to Muawiyah. Because he accepted previous caliphs on basis that they were imams since they were choosen by ijma of Muhajireen and Ansaar, Imam (عليه السلام) used Muawiyah's own principles to prove his caliphate to Muawiyah.

That doesn't mean Imam Ali (عليه السلام) believed in this.

its just like if i quote Bukhari to prove Ismah of caliphs after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). That doesn't mean i believe in Bukhari.

I am quoting Letter from Nahjul Balagha again.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance  to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph (In Arabic the word Uttered is IMAM) it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. – extract from letter 6 Nahjul Balagha.

How conveniently you 'forgot' to notice or address that Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) said that if the Muhajirun and Ansar "If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph" - Then it would be DEEMED to be mean that Allah Almighty was pleased with this selection!

He was claiming same legitimacy for his selection as of those above mentioned before him.

You cannot spin it any other way.  Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) always spoke very precisely without any ambiguities. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Debate follower
grammar ;)

[Debate follower]

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Rather this is What Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used to believe about imamate:

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said:

‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying: Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. “Isn`t it Allah Who has authority over the believers?” They said: Yes. He said: `O Allah, if I am a person`s mawla then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, love those who love him, and take them as enemies who take him as an enemy.” A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.` A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih,  Reference : Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952 book reference : Book 5, Hadith 377

He used to Gather People and remind them of what the were told at Ghadeer e Khum.

Was this address at Battle of Camel or Siffin?

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

59 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

He was claiming same legitimacy for his selection as of those above mentioned before him.

While it has been made clear, you still insist on a baseless interpretation of his letter.

What Imam Ali (عليه السلام) mentioned in this letter was Aqeedah of Muwaiyah about caliphate and imam (عليه السلام) used to justify his caliphate to Muawiyah on laws that previously were accepted by Muawiyah when he did bayah of Hz AbuBakr Hz Umar Hz Usman.

It proves nothing. Rather Imam (عليه السلام) used to remind people of Ghadeer e Khum like i quoted above which clearly proves what he thought about caliphate.

Above letter can be related with an example of a Muslim quoting Bible to quote any saying of Isa (عليه السلام) or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to prove something to Christians.

One would really be considered dumb if one thought that Muslim also believed in 100% authenticity of Bible.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

am quoting Letter from Nahjul Balagha again.

Well now lets take this discussion one step forward.

Do quote the chain of narration of this letter for us!

[Zainuu]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

really surprised to read this!  Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) the fourth Righteous Khaleef. One of 10 Promised Paradise by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) He is 5 of Ahl al-Kisa.  In every Sunni Mosque including the two Haraam (Makkah and Madinah) in the Friday Khutbah the names of 5 of Ahl al-Kisa and other members of Ahlul Bayt are mentioned and are honoured! This is done every Friday in every Sunni mosque!

Then, I don't know from where such attitudes have come up. Anways, between them and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

You can see Akhbari 12er Shias still hold to the Belief that the Blessed Quran is tampered (Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran) No. !3 in the following link.

I always held the view that believing in the purity of Quran is a fundamental belief. But later I fpund out that in the Sihah Sitta (the most authentic sunni books) the narrations are present with correct isnad saying indicating that Quran is tempered. Subhanallah! Subhanallah! To all the sunni scholars and fanatics out there who attack shias for belieiving in a tempered Quran. It is a belief strongly grounded in the hadith books of Sunnis. And according to the basic authentication methods of hadith in Shias, the hadith that contradicts Quran is rejected straight away itrrespective of the Isnad. So, Shias completely reject this belief of tempering outright while they are in the Sunni sahih books. Shias were killed and till this day a lot of Sunnis attack us on the basis of this. 

So, it is not only that we don't believe in tempering but it is present in your hadith books. Amazing like it sounds. Sheikh Albani and Zubair Ali Zai who are the most contemporary hadith scholars have even authenticated.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Similarly, Shias also believe that most of the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) bar a few are bound for hell because this is in your authentic books.

No, this similarity is inaccurate. Shias don't say that most of the companions will be in hell. That's wrong. Only the amount which counts to be the hypocrite and had a few traces of enmity with Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

And this is shia belief. Personally, I don't judge anyone to be hell bound or man of heaven. This is upto Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his judgement is the final judgement.

But the claim of calling Hazrat Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه) a kafir is offensive and extremely ridiculous. And the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had a great amount of respect for Hazrat Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه) but that seems to be missing in Ahl Sunnah.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

think this is fair enough.  Won’t you do the same (give dawah to) if some Sunni who pretended (just like your Hindu friend pretended to be faithless Shia) a faithless Sunni?   

No I won't. I convey my religion and my character to people. It is upto Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to guide the other person and not upto me. 

[Zainuu]

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Salaams Then your claim is rejected outright!

 

I am good to accept this defeat because I cannot utter a word in disrespect of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) because not only thqt would be offensive but false at the same time. If anything I had to criticise I might have taken that challenge. But the personality of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is not like that. I can't speak. I fear Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I can't even ask you or any brother to do so. But I said what I said on the basis of what I see and feel. 

See the above video and also this :

21 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Post ayyobi guy post in quora and let see if they ban you.

https://www.quora.com/As-a-Sunni-Muslim-how-do-you-consider-Umayyad-Banu-Umayya

 

I agree brother that there are proofs of many shias who deviated towards becoming a ghaali but there are many proofs of certain Sunnis who all out became Nasibi. I won't go in depth.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

43 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

You can see Akhbari 12er Shias still hold to the Belief that the Blessed Quran is tampered (Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran) No. !3 in the following link.

Why don't you start a thread on this topic separately? Then we'll see who believes in Tehreef in Book of Allah.

Condition is first you'll need to make it clear the status whoever believes in addition or subtraction in Quran or any verse whether he is misguided, kafir o murtad (apostate) etc