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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, iCenozoic said:

Allowing gay marriage does not limit anyone else's rights or freedoms.  When a gay couple gets married, they are not mocking God either. It could very well have nothing to do with their faith.

According to your premises, which most people don't share. You should qualify your statements for accuracy, since you claim to be a scientist. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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1 minute ago, Abu Hadi said:

According to your premises, which most people don't share. You should qualify your statements for accuracy, since you claim to be a scientist. 

What do you mean?

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Posted (edited)

Maybe we can take a close look at the first part of my comment. That allowing gay marriage doesn't take away from the rights of others. 

Allowing gays to marry doesn't remove other peoples ability to get married. It doesn't even prevent people from marrying others. Gays being allowed to marry is largely irrelevant to my personal freedom and rights.

Why do you think this isn't true?

Edited by iCenozoic
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Maybe we can take a close look at the first part of my comment. That allowing gay marriage doesn't take away from the rights of others. 

Allowing gays to marry doesn't remove other peoples ability to get married. It doesn't even prevent people from marrying others. Gays being allowed to marry is largely irrelevant to my personal freedom and rights.

Why do you think this isn't true?

I do think that someone, say, from the KKK, could argue that they cannot have a successful cake baking business, and simultaneously remain faithful to God, if the law required them to bake cakes for blacks.

And in this case, these laws could erode the KKKs ability to be successful in the public sector or erode their religious beliefs associated with treating blacks differently.

But I would say that this is just the way it has to be for peace. If we don't want to oppress blacks, then we must serve them cakes just like everyone else. 

And the same goes for marriages for gays or Asians, or women or transgenders etc. And it goes for any public service, whether it's baking cakes, or letting them use restrooms, or letting them give public speeches etc.

And dragon x attempted to argue that perhaps, much like bank robbers, gays might harm society. And therefore perhaps, much like bank robbers, maybe they shouldn't have equal rights. At least this is how I perceived his argument. But his argument, in my opinion was full of a lot of inconsistencies (such as monogamous gays not having HIV would not contribute to medical burdens on a community, or the idea that gays don't create viruses). And maybe this isn't what he outright said, but this is just how I received his ideas. 

And some might say, well, being gay is not equivalent to being black because people have a choice to be gay. But I disagree with this as well given that there are genetic influences at play. We can choose what to eat for dinner each day, but we can't really choose who we love. I don't choose each day to love or not love my wife. Love is simply an experience that we have. It's not really a choice. And gay experiences, in some cases may be environmentally influenced, but being gay is more of an innate quality of people than it is a choices, at least in some cases. And therefore gays, just as blacks, ought to be treated equally. 

Unless we want to oppress this particular demographic of people. 

And the philosophical position that promotes equality of different demographics, or having this philosophical position, results in far more benefits to a society than detriments. 

While the opposite of having a philosophical viewpoint that religious beliefs should supersede equality of demographics results in far more detriments to a society than benefits. 

And I mentioned this before but for people who disagree, I don't think anyone needs to just take my word for it, but rather all we have to do is observe the world and look at countries where prejudices based on religious perspectives are prominent. And compare these countries with countries where there is a greater struggle for equal  rights for these minorities.

And just watch and see how these philosophical positions play out. 

We can look at countries that ban gay marriage or even go further as to have laws for the execution of gays, And we can see how these countries economically and socially size up to countries that don't have such laws or that have laws preventing this kind of discrimination.

Edited by iCenozoic
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20 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

There is always the ignore button option to hide discomforting content.

I'm not ignoring you, I just consider I have already addressed your points rationally for future readers. If I consider the rest of the points or replies with severe flaws in their argumentation, it's not a matter of discomfort, but a matter of efficiency. I'm not convincing you nor any person who finds in your replies some logic and good reasoning. But it's not discomfort. I just felt discomfort when you spoke about the colonization of indigenous people in America in that way. I tolerate homophobia much better than racism and cruelty, as there may be many sociological reasons for the existence of the first one, but the second one is a different thing. Anyway, that's up to you to reconsider.

10 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

We want to live in a community where the laws of God, if they are not followed, at least are not disrespected and mocked. We don't have that freedom. The fact that the laws of God and religion are openly mocked and disrespected harms us and our children and turns them away from religion. For someone to whom religious faith is at the center of their existence, anything that harms this is a great harm, and a limit on their freedom. 

This way of thinking is really scary abu hadi. Again, I would prefer homophobia to this discourse of yours. Homophobia is just plain hate, this is justified oppression disguised as rights. You are saying that our (gays) freedom is oppressing yours, without realizing that it is the exact contrary. I don't oppress you if you do mutah, or have more than one wife. This belongs to your personal life. You say gays mock your faith, but what about doing the effort of empathizing a bit? and consider that maybe you considering gay people untolerable in any decent society is also mocking not just their beliefs, but their existence and identity. Seriously, this discourse of yours is very oppressive in the worst sense of the word, and I don't really think it truly represents you or Islam. Historically, this way of thinking has been part of the worst people of humanity. Give a second read to your posts, we all fail in choosing the proper wording oftenly, but this is another level man...

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Bakir said:

I'm not ignoring you, I just consider I have already addressed your points rationally for future readers. If I consider the rest of the points or replies with severe flaws in their argumentation, it's not a matter of discomfort, but a matter of efficiency. I'm not convincing you nor any person who finds in your replies some logic and good reasoning. But it's not discomfort. I just felt discomfort when you spoke about the colonization of indigenous people in America in that way. I tolerate homophobia much better than racism and cruelty, as there may be many sociological reasons for the existence of the first one, but the second one is a different thing. Anyway, that's up to you to reconsider.

This way of thinking is really scary abu hadi. Again, I would prefer homophobia to this discourse of yours. Homophobia is just plain hate, this is justified oppression disguised as rights. You are saying that our (gays) freedom is oppressing yours, without realizing that it is the exact contrary. I don't oppress you if you do mutah, or have more than one wife. This belongs to your personal life. You say gays mock your faith, but what about doing the effort of empathizing a bit? and consider that maybe you considering gay people untolerable in any decent society is also mocking not just their beliefs, but their existence and identity. Seriously, this discourse of yours is very oppressive in the worst sense of the word, and I don't really think it truly represents you or Islam. Historically, this way of thinking has been part of the worst people of humanity. Give a second read to your posts, we all fail in choosing the proper wording oftenly, but this is another level man...

How is it scary ? Unless you are trying to imply (aka put words in my mouth) that I am advocating for communal violence against gay people. I want to address that first, in case that's why your doing here.

I have never said (you can re-read all my old posts if you want) that anyone should do anything to gay people as far as hurting them, or discriminating against them. That is haram, and a major sin and a crime. Anyone who does this will be punished in this life, the next life or both, IF they do it outside of the Sharia(Islamic Law)

The only time where violence against a gay person is justified is if there are very specific conditions, which I will repeat again, for the xteenth time

1. The gay person lives in a country which is governed by Sharia(Islamic Law), something which doesn't apply to any countries I have been discussing

2. There are multiple, credible witnesses to the act of homosexual sex(i.e. putting the * in the *, they actually have to see this with their own eyes)

3. Or, the person goes before a judge and admits, not under compulsion, that they have done this. 

Then the penalty (which is death) is carried out on that person, or the two people,  by the judge, and noone else is harmed in any way

Other than that specific situation, there is absolutely no justification at all for doing anything against gay people, like harming them or discriminating against them. I will go so far as to say that if you are a business owner, you cannot discriminate against a gay person who works for you. If you choose to hire them, you must pay them, give them their benefits, and treat them the same as you would any other employee. I will just keep on posting this because there are some who want to paint me as someone who advocates violence against gay people. This is false accusation, which I will continue to defend myself against

To say that advocating for an act which is forbidden is Islam is mocking God(s.w.a) is not the same thing as advocating violence. You are trying to draw a false equivalency by calling me Homophobic and calling my speech 'hate' speech. This is something that is not conducive to debate, and it is annoying. It means that you didn't read what I actually said, you read a few words of what I said then 'filled in the gaps' with your own assumptions. 

I will state my point again

If you know or believe (or the majority of people in a certain group which you claim to be a part of believe) that God(s.w.a), the Soverign Creator and Maintainer of everything that exists or will exist say 'x' is forbidden and you advocate for doing 'x', then you are mocking God. 

There are many different types of members on this site that have problems in this area, some are Muslim, some are not. The ones who have done this act in the past, and regret it now, and are attempting to bring their lives in line with the orders of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are Muslims. They are sinners, just like 99.999999% of Muslims are, but we know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. So there is lots of hope for them going forward. Then there are those who don't believe that being gay is a sin, but they don't advocate this position publicly, i.e. keep quiet about it. These people are classified (from a legal basis) as Muslims, because we don't know what is in someone's heart unless they tell us. They are assumed by the society to be Muslim, but in fact they are Kafir, if they die with this belief and don't repent, because anyone who disbelieves in any part of the religion disbelieves in the whole religion

Then there are those who claim to be Muslim (or not) and they openly advocate for the 'gay' lifestyle and state publicly and repeatedly that being 'gay' (i.e. engaging in the homosexual sex act) is not a sin and perfectly ok and then accuse others who they don't agree with of being 'hateful' and 'homophobic' or advocating violence. Those people are mocking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by doing this. 

I know it is time to close the thread once the false accusations start. To sum up the thread so far

1. Being 'gay' as it is currently defined is a choice. It may be influenced by genetics, but it is not genetically determined. All serious scientific research that has been done of the subject comes to the same conclusion. Thread closed. 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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