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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Double Occultation and the Imam's children

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  • Advanced Member
Posted

Hi,

I have been studying the occultation of the twelfth imam, and had come to accept that his double occultation had been predicted. However, I found one prediction which seemed to challenge this:

Quote

From Imam Jafar:

“The Master of this Order will have two occultations. One will be longer so that it will even be said, ‘He has died’; and some will say, ‘He has been killed’. No one but a few of his followers will remain loyal to him. None of his sons nor anyone else will have knowledge of his place except the client in charge of his affairs”. 
Encyclopedia of Islam, vol 5 p 1236

p306 in the pdf vol5 part 3: https://library.ut.ac.ir/en/-/encyclopeadia-of-islam?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Flibrary.ut.ac.ir%2Fen%2Fhome%3Fp_p_id%3D3%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dmaximized%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_3_keywords%3Dencyclopedia%2Bof%2Bislam%26_3_struts_action%3D%2Fsearch%2Fsearch

The encyclopaedia interprets this as referring to Imam Musa, who was imprisoned twice. The thing is this: this hadith mentions the Mahdi's sons not knowing where he is. Now the 12th imam went into occultation when he was only 5 years old. So any children he would have had (presumably we do not know anything about his having children) would have been born in his place of hiding, and grown up there. Hence it would seem that this hadith cannot be about the 12th imam, and so possibly it was invented about Imam Musa and falsely ascribed to Imam Jafar.

What are your thoughts on this? Could this hadith about the Mahdi's sons not knowing his place be about the 12th Imam?

Thanks for your help,

Richard

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Hello,

This is the first I've heard of him having sons. It could have happened because he wasn't always in occultation since he was 5, he was briefly a member of society I think.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
9 hours ago, EasternQibla said:

The encyclopaedia interprets this as referring to Imam Musa, who was imprisoned twice. The thing is this: this hadith mentions the Mahdi's sons not knowing where he is. Now the 12th imam went into occultation when he was only 5 years old. So any children he would have had (presumably we do not know anything about his having children) would have been born in his place of hiding, and grown up there. Hence it would seem that this hadith cannot be about the 12th imam, and so possibly it was invented about Imam Musa and falsely ascribed to Imam Jafar.

 i also dont see a link. if he would have children then true they would raise by him and grow up with him. soo according to that hadith, the imam would impregnant a women and then the children grow up without their dad. anyway i do remember  there where hadiths similair to that one but they have been marked as not authentic because there was also grammar and other mistakes in the hadith. At the end only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Hi

Quote

Brief review: The argument for this narrative is considered in several ways:
a. Nomani has narrated the same narration; While instead of (من ولدهfrom born), (from guardian من ولی) [9] is brought.
Considering that the book of Al-Ghaybah Nomani is far ahead of the book of Al-Ghaybah by Sheikh Tusi and is part of the document of both books and there is a closeness between the word (Waliولی) and (Waladولد) in terms of writing, the possibility of correction is very strong ; Therefore, the argument to this narrative will be invalidated. One of the contemporary scholars writes after mentioning both narrations: Despite this difference, quoting the narration (Al-Ghaybah   the Sheikh [Tusi]) is not convincing; Rather, the narration (Al-Ghaybah Nomani ) seems more valid in some respects, such as the superiority of the document and the word of the hadith. [10]
Another contemporary thinker, after referring to the differences between the narrations of Sheikh Tusi and Nomani, wrote about this narration: The least possible possibility in this regard is that the meaning of the phrase: none of the children and not the others,. Are not aware from  place of the Imam, the exaggeration is hidden in intensity; This means that even if he is supposed to have a child, even he will not be aware of the true personality of the Imam, let alone others, and therefore (as is clear) this phrase is not a reason for the existence of an actual child. And as much as such a meaning is probable for the narrator, it is sufficient to disprove the argument; Because when the possibility arises, the argument is false. [11]
B. Sheikh Tusi's narration is said to have been distorted; Because in this narration, the singular pronoun is used instead of the plural:
(In the narrations) he says: From his children and another; While it was correct to say: of his children and others. Unless someone says that the pronouns ha have been added to the word valed by the scribes, or that they say that the purpose of the narration is to indicate that the Imam (عليه السلام) has only one child. Or to say that the word "son" means the name of the sex and the singular pronoun has been used to observe this point.

http://wikifeqh.ir/همسر_و_فرزند_حضرت_مهدی

Quote

F) Sheikh Tusi quotes Hassan Ibn Ali Khazaz:
Ali ibn Abi Hamzah (14) entered to Abi al-Hasan Reza (عليه السلام) and said to him: "Are you an Imam?" The Imam said: "Yes." So he said: "I heard Ja'far ibn Muhammad (عليه السلام) say: There is no Imam except a generation left by him." So he said:
O old man! You have forgotten or pretended to forgetting . Jafar did not say this, but Jafar said: There is no Imam, unless he has a child; Except for the Imam whom Husayn ibn Ali - peace be upon him - comes out of [him]; Indeed, he has no children.

 

So he said: You are right, I beg your pardon, I heard your grandfather say so. (15)
B) Mas'udi has also narrated a similar narration in the Ithbat of Wasia. (16)
It goes without saying that some Shiite scholars have said that the meaning of this narration when he says "he has no children" is that "he does not have a child who is an Imam" (17).

https://www.beytoote.com/religious/bozorgan-din/wife2-children-imam.html

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