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In the Name of God بسم الله

Who are the extreme Shi'a?

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as-salaamu alaikum,

 

There has been some talk lately about ghulu in Shi'aism. I am curious to know from fellow Shia as to what they deem as extreme among some heretical Shi'a. 

I think there should be divisions of considering whom is extreme:

1) Those who exagerate the status and ability of the Ahlul Bayt

2) Strange and extreme narrations should also be considered from the Irfani or mystic point of view (as their language is a bit different than ours) 

3) Those who are overly critical of Ahlus Sunnah folk. I would consider al-Tijani to be one of those. I like some of al-Tijani's works, but I do think he is a bit too harsh at times. In particular when discussing the Imams of the Sunnis. 

 

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Heretic are those who give extreme impropriety attributes and belief about the Imams such that they attribute them qualities of God. Some of them in past thought that Imam is a God in flesh like how christians say about Jesus. Some of them thought that the Imams give sustenace to all creations etc

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Just as an FYI- From Islamic Law /Fiqh (Jurisprudence) perspective- and the one (s) who is Qualified to give is ruling are the Jurists/Marja-e-Taqlid. (SME-Subject Matter Experts). 

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Similarly Ghulat (i.e. those who believe one of the holy twelve Imams to be God or say that God has penetrated into him) and khawarij and Nawasib (i.e. those who are enemies of the holy Imams) are also impure

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/impure-things-najasat#infidel

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the following are impure: extremists (ghulāt) (i.e. those who regard one of the Imams (ʿA) as Allah, or say that Allah has immanence (ḥulūl) in the Imam (ʿA)),(1) Kharijites (khawārij), and nawāṣib (i.e. those who show enmity towards the Imams

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2132/

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s. Similar are the khawÁrij—those who went out against an infallible imam—and the ghulÁt—those who believe in the divinity of an Imam or believe that God dwells within their bodies—and the nawÁsib—those who are enemies of one of the Imams or Lady FÁÔimah ZahrÁÞ (Peace be upon)—

http://wahidkhorasani.com/data/books/islamic laws.pdf

You can check other Jurists Islamic Law book for their opinions...

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Beyond that, it is All Conjecture/Subject/Interpretation/Linguistic/Conceptual/Cultural and Political reason. In addition, the Enemy may wear the cloak of Shisim and try to divide from within. 

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I wouldn't call them 'extreme Shia' rather they are deviants because they have moved away from Shiism

There is a good overview of ghuluw and what our aimmah have said about it here (you need to scroll down):

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-2-ahlul-bayt-quran-and-traditions

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20 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I wouldn't call them 'extreme Shia' rather they are deviants because they have moved away from Shiism

 

Now we are Not Oppressors. Our principle belief is to Protect Oppression. 

Do we have these so called  "Deviant(s)" post here. So these must be living on mars or Venus. 

Imaginary enemy is the hallmark of the west and the playbook so others have started to use. 

Just a thought- these so called "Devient(s) can return the favor and brand you as one. Now what- two groups calling each other "Deviants" - Using the same source material - like Mute Qur'an or the Mute Hadith- (you know its the mute book and the Living one- is the true interpretation of that Hadith of Two Weighty Things).

So, what happens now- public justice - you call them deviants they call you deviants- 

Solution to this Manufactured Crisis? None

Outcome- Divide and conquer. 

Considering the outcome- I would let the Qualified Jurists Define the criteria ( Not all Scholars are Qualified Jurist  in Islamic Law. If they differ among them selves - we the joe public or iayatullahs are more qualified in making a Qualified and firm decision considering the Results - Let's revisit the Unity Call with the Other Muslims. Let can fight but Unite with others- 

Which School of Wisdom is this? 

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20 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

You can open the link and refer to the hadith of the aimmah on ghuluw and how they have described the ghulat. 

Let the Qualified Jurists make the call. They do read ALL the Hadith on the subject, before making a ruling.  Different scholars quote different Hadith for different reason(s) (Selective use). 

Now the main issue. 

We have people actively calling other Shia's  Deviants while calling for Unity and respecting 'Revered Personalities" . This is the "School of Wisdom" I referred to Not the one implied. 

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14 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

as-salaamu alaikum,

 

There has been some talk lately about ghulu in Shi'aism. I am curious to know from fellow Shia as to what they deem as extreme among some heretical Shi'a. 

I think there should be divisions of considering whom is extreme:

1) Those who exagerate the status and ability of the Ahlul Bayt

2) Strange and extreme narrations should also be considered from the Irfani or mystic point of view (as their language is a bit different than ours) 

3) Those who are overly critical of Ahlus Sunnah folk. I would consider al-Tijani to be one of those. I like some of al-Tijani's works, but I do think he is a bit too harsh at times. In particular when discussing the Imams of the Sunnis. 

3rd point is in no way ghuluw. He is not harsh. We should be harsh towards baatil. 

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The book is written by a jurist. 

Here

"Al-Khoi states:

"There are some people who do not believe Amir-Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) and other Imam's (عليه السلام) to be God but believe that the Imam's (عليه السلام) are the guardians of the affairs (Wali Amr) and the workers of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they are the most beloved and closest to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and hence give Rizq (sustenance) to the creations of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and also believe that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is true sustainer (Raziq). This is similar to the case of angel of death being the one who gives death, the angel of rain sending down rainfall, Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) giving life to the dead with the will/permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as has come in the Holy Quran. Having such a belief is not Kufr and is not a rejection of any essentials (belief of Shiasm)." --"Sharh-el-Urwatul-Wuthqa" Vol.3 Pg.68"

Your call. 

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2 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

3rd point is in no way ghuluw. He is not harsh. We should be harsh towards baatil. 

Indeed

and to add to that, if OP thinks Tijani is harsh to Sunnis about Imams, he should Yasser al Habib and Allahyari

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There has been some talk lately about ghulu in Shi'aism.

Old issue.

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Abul Hasan Ali b. Ahmad al-Dallal al-Qummi narrates: ‘Among the Shias there was a difference of opinion on whether Allah has delegated creation and distribution of sustenance to the Imams ((عليه السلام).).

One group argued that this is impossible because no one can create the bodies except Allah, while the other group believed that Allah has delegated the power of creation and distribution of sustenance to the Imams ((عليه السلام).) and therefore they can create and provide sustenance. This disparity intensified with every passing day.

Finally someone suggested: ‘Why don’t you refer the matter to Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. ‘Uthman Amri ((رضي الله عنه).) so that he clarifies the truth for you? He is the representative of Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.).’ Everybody agreed.

The query was written and delivered to Muhammad b. ‘Uthman ((رضي الله عنه).).

He referred the matter to Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.).

In reply, he received a Tawqee wherein Imam (a.t.f.s.) had written:

‘Undoubtedly only Allah creates the bodies and distributes the sustenance. He neither has a body nor does He assume any form and there is none like Him. He is the All-Hearing and All-Knowing and the infallible Imams ((عليه السلام).) seek from Him and He Himself creates. They request Him and He accepts their request and to honour and elevate them He delegates to them the power to create and sustain’.

https://www.al-islam.org/special-deputies/second-special-deputy-muhammad-b-uthman-b-saeed-amri-ra

also review the concept of Wilayah Takwini

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1406

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If there is a strong chain to the Imams of the Shi'a we accept that. There may be always extreme folk but thats the way of the world. Like the ilk who say the best companions are Abu Bakr, Umar and then Uthman, without the mention of Ali. But of course its in Bukhari so its sacred. Is that really proof on us? I ask any sincere Sunni brother/sister do they really believe Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman of course so strategic to be coinciding with the reign of the first 3 caliphs, but that's the tradition establishing that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was 4th in the Ummah. 

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As a layman/average person I do not have the ability ascertain the validity of ALL the  "Reports" which came to us through individuals, who reported that the Imam(s) said the following to who/in what context or do that contradict the other Reports or the Concepts in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ). . Nor I can gather ALL 'Reports" on a single subject, to see the view in holistic manner. 

Having this handicap, I resort to the Learned Individuals/Scholars/Jurists/Marja-e-Taqlid in the field of Islamic Acts (if under their Domain) As the are the SME(Subject matter experts). 

If the issue is under their Domain, I  look at the ruling(s) if available on the issue- Which I have provided in the first post above from Most Learned Jurists ( Marja-e-Taqlid)  Sayyed Al-Khoie, Sayyed Al-Sistani, and Shaykh Khorasani. You can refer to other Most learned Jurists to confirm the Ruling and the scope according to the Islamic Law. 

Now I do read other scholars/jurists who are Not Marja-e-Taqlid and they have their opinion, and I have provide the opinion from Sayyed Al- Khoie.  Different Scholars/Jurists understand the matter differently and have different opinion. This is obvious in Fiqh/Jurisprudence issues. I would resort to the Accredited Institution like Najaf and Qum and their Most Learned Jurists. 

Now, the matter at hand is very delicate and precarious/subjective and political. 

Considering the Concepts in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) - The Holy Imam(s) are the Waris/Warith ( Refer to Ziyarat Warith)/ The inheritors of the Divine Covenant. Besides the common theme of Creator and Created. As we know Created were given whatever was given to them by their Creator.  

If anything is attributed to them which is not attributed to any their Divine Representative in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) at that point I would pause. I do not see such issue.

If one denies the ability given to the other Representative (Isa(عليه السلام), Sulayman(عليه السلام) Musa(عليه السلام) etc..) which is attributed to the Holy Imam(s) person should question his understanding and belief in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ).  They created, healed, raised the dead had knowledge of the the unseen( to their nations), had command of matter, time and space, ability to travel distances  etc..By the Permission of their Lord- No of these things should be shocking 

 like I do breath with the permission of my lord/Creator. It is an intrinsic ability but it is well that its is from the one who created me. I do not need permission every time i need to breath. 

They are the Waseela/Medium for whatever we have received in terms of Knowledge/Awareness of Tawheed. 

Whatever comes to us and whatever goes back up from us is thru them. As per the command of their Creator. 

So, branding people based on ignorance of their beliefs/Marfath/intention is not our way. 

I still Say, If you are a layman, follow the Accredited Jurists and their rulings if there is one and its in their Domain. Stick to the legal definition and avoid falling in to trap of expanding it thru other internet entities. 

It will save us disunity. If you desire Unity. I don't mention Unity to avoid the conversation/topic or something to hide. What is the fact and true position has been outlined by the Learned Jurists. So, avoid such people and their belief(s) if you can confirm without a shadow of a doubt that they hold such belief and they themselves confirm it. Besides that it is the game of what i think you mean and that is Conjecture/Subjective issue. 

Unite with your Brothers before you look for Unity with other Muslims. Be careful in brand your brothers, if they butcher them, they will say see their own kind thinks of them as deviants. Outside elements are actively using this to pose as shia to provide justification.  Knowledge with out Wisdom is dangerous. 

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