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In the Name of God بسم الله

Being wealthy

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notme

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1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

how should we define hoarding wealth, lets keep numbers in USD

Thanks 

More than is needed. 

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

More than is needed. 

needs are subjective these days 

honestly for someone who lives in america we technically don't need any money

food stamps are pretty generous, section 8 is decent in most places and at thrift stores i can find better clothes than my wardrobe AND Medicaid is amazing !

 

i would hoard money for peace of mind essentially, for the "what ifs"

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1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

i would hoard money for peace of mind essentially, for the "what ifs

I think probably for most of us, this is the answer. Security. 

Can we justify security while others go without, from a religious perspective? 

 

2 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

food stamps are pretty generous, section 8 is decent in most places and at thrift stores i can find better clothes than my wardrobe AND Medicaid is amazing !

These programs are not available to most people. In particular, they are unavailable for healthy adult men and women who do not have children. Anyone can shop in thrift stores if they have a few dollars, no matter their income or resources above that minimum. 

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

I think probably for most of us, this is the answer. Security. 

Can we justify security while others go without, from a religious perspective? 

 

These programs are not available to most people. In particular, they are unavailable for healthy adult men and women who do not have children. Anyone can shop in thrift stores if they have a few dollars, no matter their income or resources above that minimum. 

that is the incentive for many to have kids , but even in worst case no one is actually starving unlike other countries .You can get 3 to 4 diagnosis once u see a doctor , talk to a social worker and MOST people walk out with some benefits [esp if you are not a white male , sad truth from 14 yr experience. We never talk about the silent war on the single white male in USA] 

 

religious perspective no absolutely not

but muslims should also not pay tax to a non muslim govt logically or historically, [yes i know "scholars" change their opinion on it based on whichever way the wind blows] 

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Being wealthy itself isn't good or bad it's just holding a lot of value. It can give power though and not many people are fit for power. So it depends on how you are as a person. If you can hold wealth and use it well it will fuel you to be closer to Allah, if you can't hold wealth without it corrupting you it will just fuel you to become more distant from Allah

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2 minutes ago, Khurasani said:

Being wealthy itself isn't good or bad it's just holding a lot of value. It can give power though and not many people are fit for power. So it depends on how you are as a person. If you can hold wealth and use it well it will fuel you to be closer to Allah, if you can't hold wealth without it corrupting you it will just fuel you to become more distant from Allah

true to an extent 

but accumulation of any sort is not justified as long as there are poor in such huge numbers in this world, so there is some injustice that is occurring by which we accumulate wealth whether we know it or not 

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I believe the answer to this question is going to vary significantly person to person. Some people think that a new prestigious car is a necessity while some don't. Some parents believe the most expensive education for their children is necessary while some might not. Much like many people will not conform to the sunnah of the dowry given to his daughter by the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) nor the follow the standard of the feast given for that marriage, nor of the extent of celebration. Similarly the price of the clothes, shoes, the quality and quantity of the food and things of sustenance that are religiously made incumbent upon a husband to give to his wife, I don't think there can be a consensus on that either. I wish there could be though. And until such things are standardized and while capitalism with consumerism reigns over society and while Muslims conform to it the  "necessities" are going to vary wildly.

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16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

In other words, the only virtue in being wealthy is using that wealth to help others who are in need, and thus save yourself at the time when you are truely poor and really need saving (on the Day of Judgement). Besides this, there is no other virtue in being wealthy, and there is a great hazard in wealth, which Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) explains in many places in the same hadith. 

Precisely why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) calls wealth a "test" in the Qur'ān.

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:bismillah:

:salam:

 

I realise this is almost a year late. Nevertheless, an important topic about which I have changed my thoughts after listening to the following lecture by Sheikh Panahian:

Don't make money as much as you need!
 

Quote

A part of the meaning of passive devoutness, which makes clever people feel sick - and they are right to feel that way - is erasing the problem.
Only weak people enjoy this, and it is very bad.

What does active devoutness say?
You should welcome some matters which you think may bring corruption. You should even create these issues and then obey religion in such situations like a real man.

...

"We are afraid we will become corrupt!"
- "You will become corrupt without money too! Even now you are corrupt!"

...

If they taught you the ethics of being content but did not read this tradition of Imam AlSadiq (a): "There is no good in a person who does not like to increase his wealth"...


:ws:

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Old topic but nice one..

Here’s to the wealth, according to the instructions of Imam Sadiq AS, either use it on yourself, or give it to someone who needs it. 
 

It’s such a simple rule to go by, as long as one isn’t doing Israaf, over indulgence that is, then spending money that Allah gives you is liked by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah loves the display of His blessings on the person He has given those to, another Hadith. 
 

As far as giving away, other than taking care of the relatives who might be in need, I try to spend on enabler things, like assisting someone on education that could help them start a job, or helping them move to a place where there are better economic prospects etc. There is a fine line though, many people who seem needy are due to their own laziness, so there is no need to keep giving them free money. Many people who are really deserving of help are those who are sincerely striving to progress, and a timely chip in really gets them across. InshAllah Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accepts all of your generosity, after all whatever we give is given by Him to begin with, yet He asks us to loan Him for the sake of His deserving creations. 

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Brother Silas,

Assalam Alikum.

I hope you are doing the bare minimum. 

Your wajab is to give your yearly khumus to your marja3.

Go to Hajj.  Help your parents financially and your relatives.

Mustahab acts of worship is to go for ziyarah. Feed the poor.  Give sadaqa.

As you know wealth is a test from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

God bless you and Allah remove the love of the dunya from your heart.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN ALLAH 

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On 4/11/2021 at 7:55 PM, notme said:

Salam alaikum.

What are the advantages to hoarding wealth? 

Please discuss. Thanks. 

Hoarding wealth is not allowed . There are many ayats against this. Here hoarding means keeping excess wealth and not giving alms tax.

Being wealthy while spending in the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not haram but also beneficial. Lady Khadijah (عليه السلام) was also a very wealthy person but she used to feed the poor and helped in the way of Islam 

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Money is not useful for it's own sake. It is a tool. Keeping money, one becomes like a carpenter with a room full of hammers, who never builds anything. There is no benefit. 

But I've never been wealthy, so I'm just guessing. I really have no idea. That's why I asked. I see a lot of rich Muslims in the United States and I wondered what they gain from all that unused money and stuff. 

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Luke recorded the words of Jesus the Messiah about wealth and money - Luke chapter 16

13 ‘No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.’

As far as I understand this isn't saying don't have wealth.  It is saying that how we use it and our atitude to it is important.

If we put God first in our lives, what we do with our money will be in accordence to his desires.

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2 hours ago, notme said:

Money is not useful for it's own sake. It is a tool. Keeping money, one becomes like a carpenter with a room full of hammers, who never builds anything. There is no benefit. 

See this story that Jesus the Messiah told - Luke chapter 12

15 Then he said to them, ‘Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.’

16 And he told them this parable: ‘The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, “What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.” 18 ‘Then he said, “This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, ‘You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.’”

20 ‘But God said to him, “You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?”

21 ‘This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich towards God.’

May we be the ones who are rich towards God

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Since I was a child, I wanted to have a million dollars and would imagine what I would do with that money. I would think about what others needed the most and then buy it for them. 

Did not happen! :discussion: 

From what I've heard, there are two purposes of money (income): 

1. For your life (pay all your expenses)

2. For your death (for your legacy, for your inheritors)

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9 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Since I was a child, I wanted to have a million dollars and would imagine what I would do with that money. I would think about what others needed the most and then buy it for them. 

Did not happen! :discussion: 

From what I've heard, there are two purposes of money (income): 

1. For your life (pay all your expenses)

2. For your death (for your legacy, for your inheritors)

Getting wealthy is a complicated thing. I think most of us have a part of us that wants to use the money to help others. I think most of us also have another side which wants to use the money to get all the fancy things in life we were denied but think we deserve, and also to puff up our own ego. Which of those sides is stronger and would win if we actually got this money. We don't know (unless we actually get the money). Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows. So this might be why we don't get it. To save us from the damaging effects on ourselves and others of that other side which might be stronger than we think. 

If you want you can play this game with yourself, I have done it a few times. Pretend that you were looking inside an old piece of furniture that was sitting in your attic / basements, etc, and found $50 million dollars in it. If you live in the US, you will probably think 'Well I need to pay at least some of that in taxes or the IRS will come after me. So lets say you pay $10 million in taxes. So now you have 40 million. Now if you are a mumin, you think 'Well I have to pay my khums. So you set aside 20% minus your living expenses for the year for khums. So say your living expenses for the year are 100,000. The remainder is 30,900,000. So the khums on this is $6,180,000. The remainder is 24,720,000. So now that you have paid your khums and your taxes, the rest of this money is yours to spend. This is the tricky part

Now examine your mind carefully, what are your next thoughts. This is the key to the whole thing. If your mind immediately jumps to the 20 women you wanted to do Mutah with or the Rolls Royce dealership or that big house on the beach, before you think about the needy, in your own family or in the ummah, you have already answered your own questions (as to why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't give you the money ). In case your mind did not immediately go there, you can move on to the next stage.

Maybe you start going thru a list of your family and close friends. Who is needy ? There are some cases that are obvious (a relative is homeless, their kids are hungry, etc) but most are not that obvious. Some have credit card debt, some have student loans, some have maybe a high interest mortgage. You could just pay off all of it for all of them, but would that really help them ? If they have jobs and income, i.e. a means to pay it off, would paying it off for them really help them. It would help them financially, in the short term, but what if they had a bunch of credit card debt, then you payed it for them, then they ran up their credit cards again, thinking you would again pay it off for them. So now are they worse off or better off ? Besides the obvious cases, it's hard to know. 

So after that, what most people do is start thinking about investments. You think if I invest that money in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, I will have a good income for the rest of my life and I won't have to work. 24 million at an average rate of return of 5% (which is a very realistic rate of return for most investments) is 1.2 million per year in income. Income from return on investment is also taxed at a lower rate than income from actual work (i.e. a job) in the US. So now you see why almost all rich people take their money and shove it into investments. So that's usually where it stops for most people. The money goes to 'safe' investments like Fortune 500 companies (which already have alot of money) and real estate. If you can get past that part of the thinking test, then you can think about helping the ummah in general, but I guarantee in real life 99.9% of the people , even mumin/a will never get past this stage. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Getting wealthy is a complicated thing.

Indeed.

I can give you a very practical example.

We were thinking of sending my son to a fee-paying school, on the basis that my earned income is low. Ok I travel a fair bit, but that's an expense account.

So we filled in the forms about income and expenses etc. These guys are smart, they take into account whether you are deliberately making yourself seem poor by having a large car etc.

And then it asked what my wife does!

And the forms (for all schools) explicitly said that if the wife is not working we will impute that the household has £x,000 additional income to what has been declared because having one person in the household who does not work is considered a 'luxury'.

I think that is fair to be honest.

And it does mean that people who think that they are poor because they have less money than households where husband and wife work, need to reconsider their understanding of wealth and poverty.

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2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

I think that is fair to be honest.

Not luxury in all cases. Often one partner staying home is a cost saving decision. Child care is expensive, and taking time off work for medical appointments etc leads to decreased income or even job loss and damage to the professional reputation of the parent or caregiver, at least in the US. 

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39 minutes ago, notme said:

Not luxury in all cases. Often one partner staying home is a cost saving decision. Child care is expensive, and taking time off work for medical appointments etc leads to decreased income or even job loss and damage to the professional reputation of the parent or caregiver, at least in the US. 

Yes.

In the US with its relatively low tax burden and lower social security benefits, you can choose to live a lifestyle with material goods or you can have kids. If you have kids the cost to you is that you either pay for expensive childcare or you stay at home.

So, in my opinion the way the economic system is set up in the US, having kids is an expression of wealth.

In other western countries government policies are designed differently.

In the latter countries, taxes on everyone are higher (especially richer people) and some of those taxes are used to offer subsidised childcare, generous maternity leave etc., which disproportionately benefits the less well off. This makes having children cheaper and means that couples do not have to trade-off kids and material goods the way that they have to in the United States.

My contention is that in the US having children and more of them is an expression of wealth. But if you do so in the second type of country having children is relatively 'cheap' and not an expression of wealth.

The chart below roughly approximates what I am trying to say (don't have time to get something more specific). It shows that women in richer countries tend to have fewer kids, because it is so expensive. But look at the dots that I have highlighted, I would predict that these are either Scandinavian countries, or Gulf states or states like Singapore, that reduce the costs of having kids.

Screenshot 2022-02-26 at 13.42.31.png

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2 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

So, in my opinion the way the economic system is set up in the US, having kids is an expression of wealth.

Ha! 

Except that wealthier women have access to preventative measures that less wealthy women do not. Based on what I've seen, just like in other "western" countries, wealthier families in the US have fewer children, and poorer families have more/many, but the difference here is that a lot of these poor women are not wanting to have many children, they just are forced into it by biological urges, tradition (just like in Islam, Western culture discourages celibacy in marriage/long term relationships), and lack of access to pregnancy prevention. 

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21 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Yes.

In the US with its relatively low tax burden and lower social security benefits, you can choose to live a lifestyle with material goods or you can have kids. If you have kids the cost to you is that you either pay for expensive childcare or you stay at home.

So, in my opinion the way the economic system is set up in the US, having kids is an expression of wealth.

In other western countries government policies are designed differently.

In the latter countries, taxes on everyone are higher (especially richer people) and some of those taxes are used to offer subsidised childcare, generous maternity leave etc., which disproportionately benefits the less well off. This makes having children cheaper and means that couples do not have to trade-off kids and material goods the way that they have to in the United States.

My contention is that in the US having children and more of them is an expression of wealth. But if you do so in the second type of country having children is relatively 'cheap' and not an expression of wealth.

The chart below roughly approximates what I am trying to say (don't have time to get something more specific). It shows that women in richer countries tend to have fewer kids, because it is so expensive. But look at the dots that I have highlighted, I would predict that these are either Scandinavian countries, or Gulf states or states like Singapore, that reduce the costs of having kids.

Screenshot 2022-02-26 at 13.42.31.png

The main reason why the US is different than other 'Industrialized' or 'First World' countries in this way is because, mostly, of religion. The US has traditionally been more religious than the other countries, and the two major religions in the US are Christianity (#1 by far), Islam, then Judaism. There are more Muslims in the US than there are Jews (by numbers but definitely not by influence). So in these three religions, as you know already, having children is seen as a Blessing from God(s.w.a) and the ones who believe this would have children and the tax benefits, social benefits, expenses related to childcare, etc, are very much a secondary consideration. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are pretty much the same on this point. There is a phrase used commonly in the US, 'Making it work'. Meaning that if something is a good things to do, then just do it, and the other stuff will work itself out. So this has been the traditional attitude of the people of these three religions regarding children in the US. It is kind of a faith based, rather than economic based approach, to the decision of whether to have children. 

The US Government is very aware of this, so they make policy based on this deeply held traditional belief. They are stingy with the social benefits for having children, knowing that people will have children anyway because of their faith. Also, the US traditionally has a higher immigrant population (1st generation) than most other countries. The Govt also knows that 1st generation immigrants almost always have children because they perceive moving to the US as a sign they have 'made it', so they feel more secure economically (which is sometimes an illusion but perception equals reality to them) and thus more willing to have children. 

When I say these things, I am speaking traditionally. In the US, both these factors are changing and the US Govt doesn't know what to do about it. First, the US is becoming less religious, in general (although this is not affecting the Muslim community as much but it is still effecting to a smaller extent). Also, the US is not letting in as many immigrants as they did traditionally, so 1st generation immigration is also slowing down. So you see that these two factors have combined, and with the effect of the pandemic thrown in, for the first time last year in the US you had a negative birth rate, i.e. more people died in the US in 2020(1) than were born. Also, the Birth rate for 2019 was 1.7 per women, below replacement rate of 2.1. Any number less than 2.2 means a declining population, above 2.1 is increasing population, 2.1 means the population is neither increasing or declining (replacement). So the US is starting to resemble other 'First World' countries more and more. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-low-can-americas-birth-rate-go-before-its-a-problem/#:~:text=The U.S. fertility rate hit,has been underway for years.

The Democratic Party is in favor of letting in more immigrants plus increasing social benefits (such as reimbursement for child care, paid family leave, etc) because they are more aware of this issue. They have realized that the current reality is declining birth rates and this will eventually completely upend the US System of Government. The Republicans are either not aware of it, or are aware but are more interested in blocking anything that the Democratic party does, so this is what they are doing, blocking this legislation. So there is really no hope of this changing in the near future. 

At the same time, there is another huge factor in the birth rate decline. The greed and excesses of the US version of capitalism. The US version of Capitalism values profit over everything else. Because of this, every device at their disposal is used to maximize profit. The main mechanism they use is interest (riba). Most Americans pay, probably more than 1/3 of their income in interest, between interest on credit cards, student loans, mortgages, etc. Because wages haven't been increasing but the amount of interest they pay has been, there is no money left over to pay child related expenses. So this interest goes to make rich people even richer, and stops younger people from having children, because with all the interest and other bills they pay, they can't imagine how they will pay the expenses of having a child. So they don't. This effects religious, as well as non religious people. I actually think this could be the main factor. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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On 4/11/2021 at 3:25 PM, notme said:

Salam alaikum.

What are the advantages to hoarding wealth? 

Please discuss. Thanks. 

do have what u want and need

 

u gotta pay ur 2.5%

 

and ur 1/5 (20%)

 

after that u can keep HOWEVER much is left. doesnt mater if its $999999999999999999 if thats whats left then u can keep that and fufill ur needs and wants with it end of. 

 

im talking by sharia btw sadly due to the rise in socailism and marxism in the world especially the west people are paying ridiculous amounts in tax 

 

the middle class here in the uk are paying 40%+ Plus INCOME tax  A MONTH. THEN AFTER THAT THEIR BILLS, UTILLITIES, LOANS MORTGATGES, CAR PAYMENTS, RENTS, FOODS, CLOTHES, ESSENTIALS. 

 

The middle class is shrinking day by day this is not good 

Everyone SHOULD HAVE THE SAME TAX, no mattter WHAT or WHO you are. And it should be LOW 

 

sadly. this isnt gonna happen anytime soon dont even think about it happening within the next atleast 60 years unless a major world event happens. I'll be 76 so my life will be close to over. But maybe by then tech will be gud enough so that when im 76 in 60 years, ill have atlest another 24-30 years of life to look forward to.

 

BUT HEY! My grandad fought against germany for the british, survived, and died at 102 RIP MR MASOOD. : D so maybe i got a chance

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I know many people who hoard their wealth. My father and his family either hoard or are very stingy when paying their stuff. In the place where I live, we don't pay taxes because it's a rich country. Many rich people from here hoard their money sadly, they have at least 2-3 expensive cars, each year they buy the latest device, and buy a lot of expensive clothes. 

 

I want to be rich but at the same time I'm scared, I don't want to hoard my money and buy unnecessary stuff. When I was a teen, I use to buy unnecessary stuff and was satisfied buying them but after few days or even hours, I regret buying them. I stopped doing that when I started working and saving them to pay for other expenses. 

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19 hours ago, Diaz said:

I know many people who hoard their wealth. My father and his family either hoard or are very stingy when paying their stuff. In the place where I live, we don't pay taxes because it's a rich country. Many rich people from here hoard their money sadly, they have at least 2-3 expensive cars, each year they buy the latest device, and buy a lot of expensive clothes. 

 

I want to be rich but at the same time I'm scared, I don't want to hoard my money and buy unnecessary stuff. When I was a teen, I use to buy unnecessary stuff and was satisfied buying them but after few days or even hours, I regret buying them. I stopped doing that when I started working and saving them to pay for other expenses. 

1) is their income itself halal?

2)do they pay zakat and khums

 

if the above is fufilled they are fine.

 

salaam

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9 minutes ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

1) is their income itself halal?

2)do they pay zakat and khums

 

if the above is fufilled they are fine.

 

salaam

1) Some are halal and some are haram

2) I don't know if they pay khums since not all of them are shias. but i do believe they pay their zakat. not all rich people are evil. 

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1 minute ago, Diaz said:

1) Some are halal and some are haram

2) I don't know if they pay khums since not all of them are shias. but i do believe they pay their zakat. not all rich people are evil. 

If their income is haram then its haram, end of.

what do they do that makes their income haraaamm???

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1 minute ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

If their income is haram then its haram, end of.

what do they do that makes their income haraaamm???

Money laundering and riba. 

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3 hours ago, Diaz said:

not all rich people are evil. 

But almost all rich people are not doing enough to help their world.  Wealth is a more difficult test than poverty.  

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