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In the Name of God بسم الله

Breaking the fast early or after maghrib?

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Salaam everyone 

I've had a long discussion with a sunni friend about when to break the fast. He claims night/Layl starts at maghrib and is part of the Layl. So we can break our fast immediately at sunset. I went through the Quran verses that make a distinction between Layl and Maghrib. Making them not synonyms.

But then he points to the following Hadith. Is anyone familiar with these Hadith and how to methodically disprove his point.

 

[10/04, 19:57] 3 Mohamed Arba: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “When the night comes from here and the day departs from here, and the sun sets, then it is time for the fasting person to break his fast.” al-Bukhaari 1954

[10/04, 19:58] 3 Mohamed Arba: Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Awfa (may Allah be pleased with him) said: We were with the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) on a journey and he was fasting. When the sun set, he said to one of the people: O So and so, get up and make saweeq for us (mix it with water so that we can drink it). He said O Messenger of Allah, why not wait till the evening? He said: Dismount and make saweeq for us. He said: O Messenger of Allah, why not wait till the evening? He said: Dismount and make saweeq for us. He said: It is still day. He said: Dismount and make saweeq for us. So he dismounted and made saweeq for them, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) drank it, then he said: When you see that night has come from here, then let the fasting person break his fast. 

 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

This hadeeth indicates that it is mustahabb to hasten to break the fast and that it is not permissible to refrain from eating and drinking for any part of the night at all; rather as soon as it is established that the sun has set, it is permissible to break the fast. Al-Bukhaari (1955) and Muslim (1101)

Thank you in advance and Ramadan mubarak to you all Insh'Alaah! 

 

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14 hours ago, Jaysro said:

I went through the Quran verses that make a distinction between Layl and Maghrib. Making them not synonyms.

 

14 hours ago, Jaysro said:

But then he points to the following Hadith.

It seems to me you have already methodically proven your case. Quran > Hadith. Really the conversation should therefore seize there and you shouldn't even entertain hadiths when it contradicts Quran.

Secondly, Lies al-bukhari is just that, full of lies.

Thirdly, would need the arabic to see what wording is actually used. But it is a quite strange he cited these hadith... for example the 2nd one...

14 hours ago, Jaysro said:

He said O Messenger of Allah, why not wait till the evening?

14 hours ago, Jaysro said:

When you see that night has come from here, then let the fasting person break his fast. 

 

What is this inconsistent translation? Seems to me you gotta wait till night anyway lol but that's why the arabic is important... or just don't refer to Lies al-Bukhari.

On to the third hadith...

14 hours ago, Jaysro said:

This hadeeth indicates that it is mustahabb to hasten to break the fast and that it is not permissible to refrain from eating and drinking for any part of the night at all; rather as soon as it is established that the sun has set, it is permissible to break the fast

"Any part of the night" doesn't exclude when the night is starting.

And if I wanted to talk about maghrib, aka the sun setting, I would have said "as soon as it is established that the sun is setting" as opposed to "the sun has set" which is past tense and therefore the sunset has already taken place and we have entered night.

Again, the arabic wording is important. 

But Quran > hadith so really doesn't matter.

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12 hours ago, dragonxx said:

 

From the Quran we can conclude iftar is at Layl and and Layl is not synonyms with maghrib. 

But at the same time you can assume that the time consists of day and night.

So the real question that remains is if we can accept maghrib is the start of and part of Layl or is Layl only after maghrib. And the only reason he thinks so is because of the Hadith in bukhari 1954 and 1955.

My Arabic is not that strong so I can't really see anything out of the ordinary. Do you? 

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "When night falls from this side and the day vanishes from this side and the sun sets, then the fasting person should break his fast." 

حَدَّثَنَا الْحُمَيْدِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبِي يَقُولُ، سَمِعْتُ عَاصِمَ بْنَ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏

إِذَا أَقْبَلَ اللَّيْلُ مِنْ هَا هُنَا، وَأَدْبَرَ النَّهَارُ مِنْ هَا هُنَا، وَغَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ، فَقَدْ أَفْطَرَ الصَّائِمُ ‏"‏‏.‏ 

 

We were in the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) on a journey and he was fasting, and when the sun set, he addressed somebody, "O so-and-so, get up and mix Sawiq with water for us." He replied, "O Allah's Apostle! (Will you wait) till it is evening?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Get down and mix Sawiq with water for us." He replied, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! (If you wait) till it is evening." The Prophet (ﷺ) said again, "Get down and mix Sawiq with water for us." He replied, "It is still daytime."(1) The Prophet (ﷺ) said again, "Get down and mix Sawiq with water for us." He got down and mixed Sawiq for them. The Prophet (ﷺ) drank it and then said, "When you see night falling from this side, the fasting person should break his fast."

 

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ الْوَاسِطِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ، عَنِ الشَّيْبَانِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي أَوْفَى ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ كُنَّا مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي سَفَرٍ، وَهُوَ صَائِمٌ، فَلَمَّا غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ قَالَ لِبَعْضِ الْقَوْمِ ‏"‏ يَا فُلاَنُ قُمْ، فَاجْدَحْ لَنَا ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، لَوْ أَمْسَيْتَ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ انْزِلْ، فَاجْدَحْ لَنَا ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ فَلَوْ أَمْسَيْتَ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ انْزِلْ، فَاجْدَحْ لَنَا ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ إِنَّ عَلَيْكَ نَهَارًا‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ انْزِلْ، فَاجْدَحْ لَنَا ‏"‏‏.‏ فَنَزَلَ فَجَدَحَ لَهُمْ، فَشَرِبَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِذَا رَأَيْتُمُ اللَّيْلَ قَدْ أَقْبَلَ مِنْ هَا هُنَا، فَقَدْ أَفْطَرَ الصَّائِمُ ‏"‏‏.‏

 

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12 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Here is a Q and A on this from the website of the late Sayyid Fadlallah((رضي الله عنه))

Q: At what exact time of sunset can one break his fast?

A: Sunset takes place as soon as the disk of the sun disappears and there is no need to wait for the disappearance of the eastern redness, knowing that waiting for the disappearance of the eastern redness is a recommended precaution; thus, one can break his fast when the disk of the sun disappears in the horizon.

http://english.bayynat.org/worship_rites/fastingQAFasting.htm

So he says that it is permissible to break your fast once the disk of the sun has gone below the horizon, but out of precaution, you should wait till the Eastern Redness has disappeared, which takes approximately 7 minutes, depending on altitude and latitude. 

The difference between that and what Sunni ulema say, is quite obvious. According to them, it is wajib to break your fast as soon as the sun sets. This is not what Sayyid Fadlallah says. He says it is mustahab to wait, but if you need to you can break your fast at sunset. What I like about this is the 'Sun Altitude' read time calculator which shows you the altitude of the sun, and it refreshes every second automatically. 

BTW, there is a very cool website

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/livonia

Obviously this is the time for Livonia, Michigan, USA, but you can put in your own city. If you look for the heading 'Sun Altitude', that tells you the distance of the sun from the horizon. Going from day to night, once that hits 0 degrees, you can break your fast, or you can start calculating your ihtiyat. 

The site also has the time for fajr. It is the beginning time for Astronomical Twilight:

image.png.7eacd4e897456a0397245763435f79f4.png

 

 

 

Thanks for this practical reply I needed this for peace of mind! 

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:salam:

Most Sunnis get almost mad when you tell them you wait a bit just to make sure, and insist that you get that date, you end up praying with a date in your pocket. On the other hand Shias make you break your fast almost an hour after maghrib and you're like please no more du`as between maghribain. 

Ah, I miss the good old mosques days... 

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On 4/12/2021 at 2:28 AM, Jaysro said:

We were in the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) on a journey and he was fasting,

Salam fasting in journey  is not obligatory  even it recommended  not fastinbg during journey which sunnis are  insisting  on praying completly  & fasting during journey which this sunni hadith just has fabricated  to support sunni idea.

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 Imam al-Sadiq (a) from the Holy Prophet (s):

"Allah has bestowed a gift upon me and my nation, which has not been given to other nations …, breaking fast and shortening prayer in travel; therefore, whoever does not comply, has rejected Allah's gift."[5]

 

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Shortened Prayer (Arabic: صَلاةُ القَصر) or Traveller's Prayer (Arabic:صَلاةُ المُسافِر) is a term used as opposite to complete prayer. Upon certain conditions, it is obligatory for a traveller to shorten four Rak'a prayers and perform them in two Rak'as. Shortening prayer is obligatory for travellers according to Imamiyya; however, according to other Islamic sects, it is only permissible, not obligatory.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Qasr_Prayer

 

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Isa Ibn Qasim narrated from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he said: Because a man travels during the month of Ramadan, he should break his fast, and he said: The Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) left Medina for Mecca during the month of Ramadan. And the people were with him, until he descended to "Kara 'al-Ghamim" (which was a place between Mecca and Medina) and it was noon when he asked for water and drank there and ordered the others to break their fast. Some of them followed him, but some said that it was noon now and we were finishing our fast. The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) called the second group sinners and they were called by the same name until the Holy Prophet was alive. [17]

 

[17] Saduq, from La Yahdhra al-Faqih - translated by Ghaffari, vol. 2, p. 482, 1977.

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/8122

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fa&tl=en&u=https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/8122

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It has been narrated from Imam Sadiq (AS): A man in the presence of the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was honored and said: O Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), should I fast during the fasting month of Ramadan? The Imam said: No, he offered: O Messenger of God, is it easy for me to fast while traveling? The Imam said: God Almighty has given alms to the sick and travelers during the month of Ramadan, and that is that He has allowed them to break their fast. Does any of you like that when he gives alms to someone, that person rejects the alms and does not accept it? [15]


[15] Saduq, Causes of Sharia, Tehrani Mind, vol. 2, p. 241,Mo'menin, Qom, 2001, first edition.

 

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A similar issue is stated in Surah Tawbah about jihad: (All of you towards the field of jihad) Move, be light or heavy! And jihad in the cause of God with your property and your souls. This is better for you if you only knew. " [12]

It is clear that this better in the holy verse is related to the principle of jihad.

Third: In the holy verse, he says: Take a few days (you must fast!) And whoever of you is sick or a traveler, fast a number of other days.

This noble verse states that it is obligatory on the fasting person of the traveler to make up the fast. [13] And Fa'a Tafri'ah in the phrase "Fada 'from the last days" also confirms this theory; Because he has made fasting unconditional on traveling without any conditions. Therefore, the traveler must break his fast during the journey, and he must make up the fast of the days he was traveling and breaking his fast (which he was supposed to break his fast). And in the words of Allameh Tabatabai, "the letter Fa at the beginning of the verse indicates that this verse is the result and sub-verse of the previous verse." [14]

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/8122

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fa&tl=en&u=https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/8122

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O you who have faith! Prescribed for you is fasting as it was prescribed for those who were before you, so that you may be Godwary. (183) That for known days. But should any of you be sick or on a journey, let it be a [similar] number of other days. Those who find it straining shall be liable to atonement by feeding a needy person. Should anyone do good of his own accord, that is better for him, and to fast is better for you, should you know. (184) The month of Rama¤¡n is one in which the Quran was sent down as guidance to mankind, with manifest proofs of guidance and the Criterion. So let those of you who witness it fast [in] it, and as for someone who is sick or on a journey, let it be a [similar] number of other days. Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire hardship for you, and so that you may complete the number and magnify Allah for guiding you, and that you may give thanks. (185)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:185

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Now that travel is easy, why shouldn't a traveler fast?
Saturday, 28 July 2015 08:06Content Code: 429232


That is, a person who was traveling with a camel at that time, when he reached a place where he was supposed to stay for ten days, according to the narrations, his prayers were complete and his fast was correct. The question is this person who has been traveling for a month and has come from afar. Why, when he has such an intention, should his prayer not be broken? Isn't he tired? Wasn't it hard for him? on this regard should have ordered these people not to fast for at least the first few days and their prayers should be broken !!! (Note)


. Vehicles and travel tools are different from the past, but at the same time, travel has many limitations. If you look at your own experience, you will find that there is basically no such comfort in travel - especially in the middle of the road - (and the proof is that there is a proverb in society that no place is like a man's own house Especially when traveling by fast equipment, there are many worries and few opportunities
 
Therefore, despite the many facilities that have been created in travel, even in our time and time travel has its own mental and physical problems for most people, so we have been instructed to pray four rak'ats in travel (of course, with the conditions in the treatise Come) read broken. And we must obey the commands of religion, and the rulings address the predominant problems of the people.


1- The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) says: God Almighty has taken fasting and some prayers from the traveler. "2
  Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has narrated from his fathers and they from the Messenger of God, may God bless him


 Almighty God has given me and my ummah a gift of dignity that He has not given to the previous ummahs. They said: What is that gift? He said: Permission for breaking the fast and halving the prayer [four rak'at prayers] while traveling; "So whoever does not do so has rejected the gift of God."


 

 

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4- Jabir ibn Abdullah says: When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) set out to conquer" Mecca "(the eighth year of the Hijrah), it was the" holy month of Ramadan ", a large crowd was with him. A group of horsemen and a group of pedestrians, when they reached the house of "Kara al-Ghamim", ordered them to bring a bowl of water and break their fast. And they refused to break their fast, and remained on their fast. The Prophet called them "Sinners," 

5


5. The Holy Prophet said: "Fasting on the journey, not the good." 6
 
6. The Holy Prophet says: "fasting passengers like living in the country is breaking fasting." [7
 
different cause And Wisdom
 
Fourth: There is a difference between the cause of the ruling and the wisdom of the ruling (note) .....

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fa&tl=en&u=http://www.jahannews.com/sound/429232/حالا-سفرها-آسان-شده-چرا-مسافر-نباید-روزه-بگیرد
 
 

http://www.jahannews.com/sound/429232/حالا-سفرها-آسان-شده-چرا-مسافر-نباید-روزه-بگیرد

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On 4/11/2021 at 5:48 AM, Abu Hadi said:

Here is a Q and A on this from the website of the late Sayyid Fadlallah((رضي الله عنه))

Q: At what exact time of sunset can one break his fast?

A: Sunset takes place as soon as the disk of the sun disappears and there is no need to wait for the disappearance of the eastern redness, knowing that waiting for the disappearance of the eastern redness is a recommended precaution; thus, one can break his fast when the disk of the sun disappears in the horizon.

http://english.bayynat.org/worship_rites/fastingQAFasting.htm

So he says that it is permissible to break your fast once the disk of the sun has gone below the horizon, but out of precaution, you should wait till the Eastern Redness has disappeared, which takes approximately 7 minutes, depending on altitude and latitude. 

The difference between that and what Sunni ulema say, is quite obvious. According to them, it is wajib to break your fast as soon as the sun sets. This is not what Sayyid Fadlallah says. He says it is mustahab to wait, but if you need to you can break your fast at sunset.

BTW, there is a very cool website.What I like about this is the 'Sun Altitude' read time calculator which shows you the altitude of the sun, and it refreshes every second automatically. 

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/livonia

Obviously this is the time for Livonia, Michigan, USA, but you can put in your own city. If you look for the heading 'Sun Altitude', that tells you the distance of the sun from the horizon. Going from day to night, once that hits 0 degrees, you can break your fast, or you can start calculating your ihtiyat. 

The site also has the time for fajr. It is the beginning time for Astronomical Twilight:

image.png.7eacd4e897456a0397245763435f79f4.png

 

 

 

He doesn’t say: “if you need to, you can break”.  He says rather:

there is NO NEED to wait in order to break!  

But it is better to wait, he says (to be on the safe side).  
 

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