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In the Name of God بسم الله

Death is Defeated

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Hi There I posted this back in January with a picture but no one responded.

This weekend I have been celebrating Easter - Remembering the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.  In many of the things I lisened to there was a repeated idea.  The physical resurrection of Jesus the Messiah from the dead declares that death is defeated. Paul writes about this in

1 Corinthians 15 quoting Hosea 13:14 and Isaiah

‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’

55 ‘Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?’

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do you understand by "death is defeated"? and Does Islam proclaim that death is defeated?

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
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Salaam,

I'm no expert in this topic, but to me (and maybe to the rest of the Muslims) the idea that "death is defeated" just sounds weird. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression that death is, and I don't know why, viewed negatively in Christianity. IMO death is something natural, just like life. That fact that Christians believe that Jesus died and then resurrected, therefore he somehow "defeated death" just really seems weird to me, since other personnalities have resurrected as well (not only Jesus). Why can't we say that they deafeated death ? Why is Jesus the exception ? Besides, EVERYONE will eventually be resurrected in the Day of Judgement, where they will eventually reside and LIVE in Paradise or Hell forever. Can we also say that death has been defeated in this case ?

In Islam, there is an angel in charge of taking souls. You may have heard of him: Malak al-Mawt (The Angel of Death), or 'Izraeel. There are 2 hadiths that kind of have something to do with what you're saying. The 1st one was maybe a story regarding Imam al-Hassan (عليه السلام) when a group of Romans came to him and asked him several questions. One of the questions was: What are the ten things one of which is stronger than the other? The Imam (عليه السلام) answered beautifully:

Stone. Iron overpowers stone. Fire overpowers iron. Water overpowers fire. The clouds carry the water. The wind overpowers the clouds. The angels control the wind. The Angel of Death overpowers the angels. Death overpowers the Angel of Death, and Allah overpowers death because he is the living that does not die.

The 2nd hadith is concerning just before the Day of Judgement where every living being has died except for the Angel of Death. Allah will ordain the Angel to take his own soul. As he takes his own soul, the Angel will say: "If I knew death was so painful, I would have been more merciful on the believers."

Someone correct me please if these hadiths are correct or not. But anyways, just to show you that only Allah defeats death. If any living being is resurrected and lives forever, that is obviously thanks to the power of Allah. At least, that's what I have to say about the topic, so I hope I gave some satisfying answers.

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On 4/5/2021 at 5:48 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Death has been swallowed up in victory.’

55 ‘Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?’

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do you understand by "death is defeated"? and Does Islam proclaim that death is defeated?

This is a common argument given by Christians which I have always thought holds no weight when it comes to truth. This goes against reason, because according to Christian views, Jesus (عليه السلام) had to die on the cross for our salvation. If he did not die on the cross we would not have salvation according to Christianity. Regardless if the Christians claim Jesus rose after death (3 days later and 3 nights), the point is he still died according to their views. Was he not dead according to Christians for at least 3 days? So if Jesus rises from the dead how would that be any different than all of us rising from death on the day of Judgement which is a reality that both Christians and Muslims agree. This reminds me of the rational Quranic argument about Jesus the Son of Mary and Adam. Christians say one of the proofs for Jesus (عليه السلام) being divine is that he was born of a virgin mother (Mary SA). However, the Qur'an squashes this argument simply with: "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. "(Qur'an 3:59). Adam (عليه السلام) had no mother nor father, yet it would be irrational to say he is divine.

 

This type of argument that Christians bring is just as weak as arguments about the trinity being similar to water. Water can be solid (ice), gas (steam) or liquid (water). First and foremost this is erroneously because it likens God to the creation by comparing God to states of water. Secondly there are causes in the creation that affects the state of water. That is to say water becomes a solid when frozen. Water becomes steam when heat is applied. Water is a liquid when neither too heated nor too cold. Since God is not affected by creation as he is As-Samad (Self sufficient whom all else gets their subsistence from) the similarly this argument falls apart as it is based on external 'accidents' that cause water to change states and God himself does not change. He is as He was before the creation of the universe (or universes).

 

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On 4/16/2021 at 3:31 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

the idea that "death is defeated" just sounds weird.

Thank you for your response.  I too think the expression is strange because death is the one certain thing about life, but I don't think Christianity views death negatively.  Followers of Jesus are encouraged to face death with hope, joy and peace.  Paul writes in 1Thessalonians 4

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

Death is seen as a door to realize a closer relationship with the Living God. 

People in general face death with uncertainty resulting in fear because we do not know what lies beyond.  The BIble indicates that the devil has some power over death and through death draws people into slavery.  Hebrews chapter 2

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he (Jesus) too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil – 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

On 4/16/2021 at 3:31 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

other personnalities have resurrected as well (not only Jesus). Why can't we say that they deafeated death ? Why is Jesus the exception ? Besides, EVERYONE will eventually be resurrected in the Day of Judgement,

I'm not sure who the other personalities are.  I agree some people die and have a 'near death experience' and come back to life.  However, these people will die again.  With Jesus the Messiah his resurrection was a completly different event.  There was no medical intervention - he was sealed in a guarded tomb.  His resurrected body, although physical - he could eat and cook and be touched, was in someway spiritual - he had the ability not to be recognised, to disapear, to enter locked rooms.  This was not Day of Judgment resurrection it was a completly different resurrection here on earth.

I like your comment about the 10 things ending with Allah overpowers death because he is the living that does not die.

When Peter (a close friend of Jesus) was explaining the death and resurecetion of Jesus he said (Acts chapter 2)

23 This man (Jesus) was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Jesus the Messiah shows us what the invisible God is like and one of God's atributes is that he is living; he has power over death.  So Jesus in rising from death shows us that he has this same atribute.

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On 4/16/2021 at 3:55 AM, MexicanVato said:

Regardless if the Christians claim Jesus rose after death (3 days later and 3 nights), the point is he still died according to their views. Was he not dead according to Christians for at least 3 days? So if Jesus rises from the dead how would that be any different than all of us rising from death on the day of Judgement which is a reality that both Christians and Muslims agree.

I appreciate your contribution it is helpful to see your perspective.  I think I have explained previously in answer to @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid  that the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah was different than the general resurrection on Judgment day.  We will be raised to stand before God and give an account of our lives.  Jesus the Messiah rose after death in order to bring his followers through that judgement ionto God's presence.

Your comment about the virgin birth is not the reason Christians see Jesus the Messiah as divine.  There are other more compeling reasons.  But your quote from the Qur'an about Adam is very relivant.  Because Adam disobeyed God he was turned out of the garden and eventually experienced a physical death.  He was made from dust and returned to dust.  In the resurrection of Jesus we see a second Adam.  He had a physical body made from dust but he did not return to dust.  Death does not have power over Jesus the Messiah.  Adam was the one who brought death to humanity.  Jesus the Messiah - the second Adam - brings eternal life to humanity.  We can be of thiose from Adam and face both physical death and spiritual death, or we can be those of Jesus the Messiah and start to enjoy the fruits of spiritual life now and face physical death with confidence.

(PS let's not talk about the Trinity here - I would never use the water analogy because like you say it has many flaws)

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23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm not sure who the other personalities are.

The widow of Zarephath’s son (1 Kings 17:17–24), the Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:18–37), the man raised out of Elisha’s grave (2 Kings 13:20–21), and others that were resurrected by Jesus, including the widow of Nain’s son (Luke 7:11–17), Jairus’ daughter (Luke 8:40–56), Lazarus of Bethany (John 11), various saints in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:50–53), Tabitha (Acts 9:36–43), Eutychus (Acts 20:7–12) and finally Jesus Christ himself (Mark 16:1–8).

23 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah shows us what the invisible God is like and one of God's atributes is that he is living; he has power over death.  So Jesus in rising from death shows us that he has this same atribute.

But the difference is that Allah/God CANNOT die, this goes against his nature. According to the Bible, Jesus did die but later resurrected, whereas God was always alive and will never die. So in a sense he doesn't really have the same attribute.

Besides, you also quoted the verse 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. I think the bold text should have been in But God raised him from the dead. This verse proves that it was in fact God that resurrected the dead Jesus, and so God is the one that defeats death. So in my opinion, this goes against what you said in the next reply to @MexicanVato: "Death does not have power over Jesus the Messiah. Adam was the one who brought death to humanity. Jesus the Messiah - the second Adam - brings eternal life to humanity." In fact it is God that brings eternal life to humanity, ie the resurrector, not the resurrected.

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On 4/19/2021 at 8:27 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Because Adam disobeyed God he was turned out of the garden and eventually experienced a physical death.  He was made from dust and returned to dust.  In the resurrection of Jesus we see a second Adam.  He had a physical body made from dust but he did not return to dust.  Death does not have power over Jesus the Messiah.  Adam was the one who brought death to humanity.  Jesus the Messiah - the second Adam - brings eternal life to humanity.  We can be of thiose from Adam and face both physical death and spiritual death, or we can be those of Jesus the Messiah and start to enjoy the fruits of spiritual life now and face physical death with confidence.

Hi death & time of it has been set by Allah/God for everyone  since start of creation even for prophet  Adam(عليه السلام)  not because of disobeying  of prophet  Adam(عليه السلام) but as Allah/God rule which every living  out of paradise & hell will face  death which creation/birth of prophet  Isa (as)[Jrsus] was like creation  of prophet  Adam(عليه السلام) but he is not second Adam which he will dye before Imam Mahdi (aj) after second coming which after he lived some some years  on earth then he will die & will burry by Imam  Mahdi (aj) which Imam will die after him then both of them will resurrect  with all humans in judgment  day so every  human will have  physical death but their will remain until judgment  day then everyone  will enter to judgment  day & paradise  & hell with both of physical body & spirit for eternal  life in Paradise  or hell.

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On 4/16/2021 at 3:31 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

other personnalities have resurrected as well (not only Jesus).

Thanks for the list of people from the Bible.  As I said the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah is in a different catogory from these people.  They all rose to die again.  None of them are still with us.  However, the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah means he will never die again.  We do not have his grave.  He is alive today.  I meet with him each day as I live my life.

On 4/20/2021 at 4:50 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

But the difference is that Allah/God CANNOT die, this goes against his nature. According to the Bible, Jesus did die but later resurrected, whereas God was always alive and will never die. So in a sense he doesn't really have the same attribute.

Yes God cannot die - if he did the whole of creation would cease to exist as he is the one who keeps it going.

I suggest we have a number of issues here.  One of them is what is death?

The bible talks about two deaths.  One is a physical death the stopping of bodily functions.  The other is spiritual death.

The worldview of the Bible is that the real person does not cease to exist when the physical body stops working.  That real person continues to have a spiritual existance.  The second death is about the state of that spiritual dimension of a person.

The spirtual person is alive when they are in contact with God receiving spirtual susitance from him.  Spirtual death is when a person is cut off from God and living seperate from him due to their sinful nature. This does not mean their spirit ceases to exist - it is existing but seperate from God the source of true life.  In this way, at the moment Adam ate the fruit he died spiritually, because his relationship with God was broken, but he continued to live physically for many years.

In the same way many people alive today are physically alive but spiritually dead.  This is why Jesus the Messiah talked about being born again of the Spirit.

Now let's return to Jesus the Messiah.  On the cross he died physically - his bodily functions stopped and he was buried.  But what about his spirit?  That aspect of Jesus also died in that his contact with God the Father was broken.  Jesus the Messiah not only experienced the agoney of physical death he also experienced the seperation from the Father that we experience.

He entered death in this way so that he could rescue those who are seperate from God - spirtually dead.  It is like a firefighter rushing into a burning house to save a person who is trapped.  The firefighter cannot save the person without entering into their situation.

The atribute that God has that Jesus the Messiah shares is not 'life' or 'being alive'.  The atribute is the power to give life.  To rescue people from seperation and alienation from the source of true life and regenerate them into fully functioning spiritual beings.

The Trinity enables this wonderful truth.  God while keeping the creation in existance, is able to engage with us.  To enter the burning house and hold us in his arms and rescue us.  He doesn't just shout instructions from outside or barate us for playing with matches.  Jesus the Messiah is God himself giving us true spirtual life.  In this way death is defeated.  Satan no longer has the power to drag us with him into an eternal spiritual death, eternally seperated from the source of love and life.  The way is open.  The rescuer is with us, in the fire, delivering those who put their trust in him.

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
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On 4/21/2021 at 7:40 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi death & time of it has been set by Allah/God for everyone  since start of creation even for prophet  Adam(عليه السلام)  not because of disobeying  of prophet  Adam(عليه السلام) but as Allah/God rule which every living  out of paradise & hell will face  death which creation/birth of prophet  Isa (as)[Jrsus] was like creation  of prophet  Adam(عليه السلام) but he is not second Adam which he will dye before Imam Mahdi (aj) after second coming which after he lived some some years  on earth then he will die & will burry by Imam  Mahdi (aj) which Imam will die after him then both of them will resurrect  with all humans in judgment  day so every  human will have  physical death but their will remain until judgment  day then everyone  will enter to judgment  day & paradise  & hell with both of physical body & spirit for eternal  life in Paradise  or hell.

I really appreciate your contribution here.  Yes God knows when and how we will die.  Yes Jesus the Messiah and the Prophet Adam are similar in their physical bodies.  Both had a body made from dust and brought into existance by God's command.  Also both experienced the whisperings, temptations of satan.

The story of Adam tells us that he listened to satan and disobeyed God's command.  In this way we are decendents of Adam.  We too fall to the lies of satan.  Adam was sent by God out of the garden to live a hard life on earth.  We too, have to live this earthly life as children of Adam.

The story of Jesus the Messiah tells us that although he was tempted by satan he resisted and obeyed God completly.  Because of this, death (which was Adam's real punishment) could not hold him.  God raised him to himself.  Now we have the opportunity to continue as children of the first Adam, or to become children of the second Adam.  We can follow Jesus the Messiah, and with his strength, through the Holy Spirit of God living in us, resist the whisperings of satan and be raised to new life with God.  To share in Jesus the Messiah's resurrection.

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Your OP reminded me of this saying of Imam Ali (عليه السلام):

Quote

فزت ورب الكعبة 

“By the Lord of the Ka’ba, I have succeeded! “

This memorable phrase burst out from his lips the day when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was struck with the fatal blow by the assassin’s poison-soaked sword. An immortal phrase, it has continued to goad human conscience for almost the past fourteen centuries! It has made those with even a grain of intellect dumbstruck at the dynamism of the person who pronounced it in the early hours of the 19th of Ramadhan, 40 AH corresponding to the year 660 of the Christian calendar.

What was the success that Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) felt at that moment? And why was he elated when all passages to life abruptly closed for him and he was about to enter the apparently unknown and uncharted realm of death? Only the ignorant would pose such a question concerning the man who says in one of his sermons: “The Son of Abu Talib is more enthusiastic for death than an infant for the mother’s breast.”

 

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@Dave follower of The Way Dear brother, pardon me if what I say may sadden you, but what you have said makes no sense.

1. You are saying that God cannot die, otherwise all of creation would cease to exist.

2. You then said that Jesus died both phyisically and spiritually (which by the way, to say that he died spiritually, meaning that he SEPARATED from God is totally unacceptable, since that means that he isn't the role model for us. I don't want to follow someone that separated himself from God, it wouldn't make sense for God to send a messenger that isn't 100% spiritually connected to him. Sure, the messenger can be tried and faced with many difficulties and tests, but if he sins and despairs and gets away from God, then that messenger has failed).

3. You then said Jesus the Messiah is God, a clear contradiction from point 1. God cannot die, but Jesus died, and yet somehow these 2 individuals are the same ? If we are talking about the physical death, it's complete nonsense since God can't physically die. If we are talking about spiritual death, it makes even less sense since what you're saying is that God is breaking a relationship him himself ???

4. You then said that Jesus died so that he could rescue those who are separate from God - spirtually dead.  "It is like a firefighter rushing into a burning house to save a person who is trapped.  The firefighter cannot save the person without entering into their situation." I personally don't like the example since first of all the firefighter has protective clothes and he can't get burned, whereas the trapped person can (that implies that Jesus should "save us" without the need of him dying). Second, this applies more to the physical death, not the spiritual death. A better example would be to say that a man sinned in order to stop another man from sinning (that's what you're saying: Jesus died spiritually so he can save those who are spiritually dead). With all honesty how does that make sense ? Third: I understand if Jesus died in order to save one person, but all of humanity ? It is not just for God to place such a heavy burden on Jesus, he's clearly innocent from every human being's sin.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to tell you.

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On 4/6/2021 at 7:48 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi There I posted this back in January with a picture but no one responded.

This weekend I have been celebrating Easter - Remembering the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.  In many of the things I lisened to there was a repeated idea.  The physical resurrection of Jesus the Messiah from the dead declares that death is defeated. Paul writes about this in

1 Corinthians 15 quoting Hosea 13:14 and Isaiah

‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’

55 ‘Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?’

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do you understand by "death is defeated"? and Does Islam proclaim that death is defeated?

Problem with ur beliefs it’s all apologetics and theories and ideologies and each christian explains different from every other christians fundamental things 

we ain’t interested in christians philosophy from epistemology of words which are not even original but translation in your various versions of the bible 

u guys spend ur life trying to make sense of what none of u understand nor know what ur going on about

u gotta understand to us muslims it all looks so funny and comedic 

u guys set your mind on some word like this ‘death is defeated ’ and start philosophising what u think it means and start cross referencing unrelated things to explain some idea u got it’s all looks like your all so confused with your personal linguistics interpretation and interpolation that none of u even agree amongst yourself 

the things u mentioned here another christian would not even repeat a second time they would be arguing ur points from his point of view

ur guys r confused we have a logical religion our fundamentals are clear there is political and historical issues but post the passing of prophet Muhammad but generally most things are clear and accepted by majority 

u guys r confused and just full of personal conjectures , there have been many christians on this site over last few years and each one had some personal interpretation of various fundamental topics 

 

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On 4/15/2021 at 11:25 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

From the lack of response it would seem that Islam doesn't have anything to say on this topic.

Prophet Jesus Christ (عليه السلام) did not defeat death, but he did live to be about 125 years old.

Angel Commander Dimas willingly went to the cross/crucifixion  in place of Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام). He willingly sacrificed himself, so that Prophet Jesus would not be killed.

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On 5/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Dear brother, pardon me if what I say may sadden you, but what you have said makes no sense.

THanks for your well expressed points.  They are really important and I appreciate you engaging with what I wrote.  I'm afraid my answer is a bit long, but I have tried to adress your points.

On 5/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

he SEPARATED from God is totally unacceptable,

We are separated from God because of the same that our deeds bring on us, so we hide from God.  This is the story of Adam found in the Torah Genesis 3.  Jesus therefore, in order to come to us and rescue us by removing our shame, chose to separate himself from God so that he could be where we are and lift us up.

His separation from God was not because of “sin and despair” as you suggest, but was a choice he made and in that separation never sinned, despaired or failed.

On 5/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

God cannot die, but Jesus died,

When a Christian looks at God, they worship the one creator of the universe.  That one God has revealed himself and his character though three distinct yet entwined persons.  You are right God can not die physically.  Jesus the Messiah’s death was when his body ceased to function – that is what our death will be too.  His essence – soul – continued to exist.  This is true for us too, we do not cease to exist when our body stops working. Yes, you have understood the amazing truth of Jesus the Messiah’s death.  He chose through spiritual separation from other members of the Godhead to take our place, come to where we are in order to rescue us, and defeat death and the devil.

On 5/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

It is not just for God to place such a heavy burden on Jesus, he's clearly innocent from every human being's sin.

I think you are missing the point of my picture of the firefighter.  The firefighter doesn’t stand outside the burning house shouting instructions.  They enter the very situation and confront the danger so they can carry the person out.  Often that person is injured and unable to save themselves. 

Again, I see that you have understood what happened to Jesus.  You said “A man sinned in order to stop another man from sinning.”  Jesus the Messiah didn’t sin, but the Holy Scripture talks about Jesus the Messiah “becoming sin for us” (2 Corinthians 5:21) and “bearing our sins and carrying our illnesses” (Isaiah 53:4-6 & 1Peter 2:24-25) He became like you and me in order to bring us out of our desperate situation into the very presence of God.

Your comment “it is not just to place such a heavy burden on Jesus.” and your question “How can one person save all humanity?” are really valid.  Firstly, Jesus the Messiah within the Godhead chose voluntary and in full cooperation and agreement to bear the burden and punishment of the human race.  It is not unjust for some to choose to give their life in order to rescue a friend.  Rather it is the ultimate expression of love and generosity. 

I agree that one person would not be able to save all humanity.  Firstly, because every person has their own burned to bear and be saved from.  Secondly a human is weak and limited.  Jesus the Messiah meets both of those criteria.  Firstly, he didn’t have his own burden to carry so he was free to rescue others.  Secondly, Jesus the Messiah is the infinite, unlimited God with no boundaries or limitations.  This means that his actions are sufficient for each person in all places and at all times.  His action in saving me does not reduce the amount of saving power he has, so he is still able to save you, and all others who call on him, without diminishing his infinite resources.

I hope these comments are helpful.

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On 4/6/2021 at 2:48 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What do you understand by "death is defeated"? and Does Islam proclaim that death is defeated?

In Quran, we have a beautiful verse:

"Kullu nafsin za'iqatul mowt"

(Every soul have to taste death)

Its the thing which we taste gets finished, not we who taste it. 

It is also mentioned in Quran that Angels take the souls with them. It is the soul who tasted it and then it goes with the Angels. Soul has defeated the death after tasting it.

 

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41 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

u guys spend ur life trying to make sense of what none of u understand nor know what ur going on about

u gotta understand to us muslims it all looks so funny and comedic 

Thank you for reading my struggles to understand reality.  I would like to share with you something that is not philosophical or conjecture but is a real daily experience in my life.

Each morning when I wake up I kneel in the very presence of the almighty creator of the universe. I confess my failings, and shame and know his complete forgivness and acceptence into his family.  I spend time talking with God about my family and friends laying before him their different situations.  I then read the Holy Scriptures and listen to God speaking into my daily experience his words of comfort, challenge and correction.  As I go out into the world, I do not leave God behind but experience the power of God's Holy Spirit inside me to live a life that pleases God and overcomes the power of satan.  Living as a child of God and knowing him as my heavenly farther and friend gives me energy and motivation for life.

I wonder if you could share your daily experience of God?  Thank you.

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1 minute ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Thank you for reading my struggles to understand reality.  I would like to share with you something that is not philosophical or conjecture but is a real daily experience in my life.

Each morning when I wake up I kneel in the very presence of the almighty creator of the universe. I confess my failings, and shame and know his complete forgivness and acceptence into his family.  I spend time talking with God about my family and friends laying before him their different situations.  I then read the Holy Scriptures and listen to God speaking into my daily experience his words of comfort, challenge and correction.  As I go out into the world, I do not leave God behind but experience the power of God's Holy Spirit inside me to live a life that pleases God and overcomes the power of satan.  Living as a child of God and knowing him as my heavenly farther and friend gives me energy and motivation for life.

I wonder if you could share your daily experience of God?  Thank you.

That’s fine we all experience that God is merciful if u turn to God with sincerity God will turn to u, and keep at it it’s the right thing to do

but the scholastic arguments about the bible is another story and topic

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6 minutes ago, Cool said:

In Quran, we have a beautiful verse:

"Kullu nafsin za'iqatul mowt"

(Every soul have to taste death)

Its the thing which we taste gets finished, not we who taste it. 

It is also mentioned in Quran that Angels take the souls with them. It is the soul who tasted it and then it goes with the Angels. Soul has defeated the death after tasting it.

 

That's a really interesting perspective.  Yes physical death is not the end it is a door through to a new dimention of existance.

I pray the Angels take you to the presence of God where you will hear his welcome and be recieved into his presence.

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2 minutes ago, Tabassum Iman said:

"Face It" Dajjel wasted all of your time and money chasing rainbows.

Don’t be mean if the guy turns to God sincerely God responds , God is beyond names and titles , He responds to intentions and sincerity 

pray for guidance to him , maybe he means well and he is going by what he knows and grew up with 

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13 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus therefore, in order to come to us and rescue us by removing our shame, chose to separate himself from God so that he could be where we are and lift us up.

this is precisely why nobody replies to such topics, because you are often out to prove your point and not out for the truth.

Mohamad Abdel-Hamid basically says separation of an entity into two is completely unacceptable because it by definition contradicts the nature of God, you proceed to repeat that one entity (jesus) split off from another (?greater) entity, and that is God's (?the greater entity or ?jesus (lesser entity)) miracle. Perhaps God transforms into human form and the usual God seizes to exist? But then you also say God raised Jesus, making a clear distinction.

It's circular, convoluted argumentation just like the rest of the points you made.

Sorry had to put this out there.

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1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

this is precisely why nobody replies to such topics, because you are often out to prove your point and not out for the truth.

Mohamad Abdel-Hamid basically says separation of an entity into two is completely unacceptable because it by definition contradicts the nature of God, you proceed to repeat that one entity (jesus) split off from another (?greater) entity, and that is God's (?the greater entity or ?jesus (lesser entity)) miracle. Perhaps God transforms into human form and the usual God seizes to exist? But then you also say God raised Jesus, making a clear distinction.

It's circular, convoluted argumentation just like the rest of the points you made.

Sorry had to put this out there.

Christians don't actually believe that God transforms into a human but rather that He took on as His own a created human nature which remains a created human nature. God and not the created human creature resurrected the said created nature. God in Himself remains unchanging. That is officially- I am sure you will find Christians who believe all sorts of strange things. 

Most Religious debates as opposed to discussions are best avoided because all to often people use them to exercise their own egos. 

 

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1 hour ago, Celtic Twilight said:

Christians don't actually believe that God transforms into a human but rather that He took on as His own a created human nature which remains a created human nature. God and not the created human creature resurrected the said created nature. God in Himself remains unchanging. That is officially- I am sure you will find Christians who believe all sorts of strange things. 

 

I appreciate the elaboration. Indeed various Christians defend their views in variable ways leading to all sorts of confusion.

Needless to say, 'God remains unchanging' yet He took on as His own a created human nature therefore adjusting (?improving) God's nature. I put ?improving because this, as I alluded above, implies God is in someway incomplete and requires a creation to be one of His "forms" or whatever you want to call it in order to exert change, in order to "forgive" sins, etc. etc. God changing in nature or manifesting in different ways alone is absolutely ludicrous and incongruent with an All-Powerful God, let alone requiring such "manifestations" in order to exert an effect.

As the late Ahmed Deedat pointed out about Christians; Jesus ((عليه السلام)) says this is all from God, my Lord and your Lord, but Christians insist no you (Jesus you liar) are God, too bad you can't trick us, we know you're God in human form astaqfirallah. SO frustrating.

It's really just a bunch of nonsense. The average Christian, acceptable. The seemingly educated one who knows better and reflected yet rejected, sad.

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On 5/25/2021 at 7:39 PM, dragonxx said:

Needless to say, 'God remains unchanging' yet He took on as His own a created human nature therefore adjusting (?improving) God's nature. I put ?improving because this, as I alluded above, implies God is in someway incomplete and requires a creation to be one of His "forms" or whatever you want to call it in order to exert change, in order to "forgive" sins, etc. etc. God changing in nature or manifesting in different ways alone is absolutely ludicrous and incongruent with an All-Powerful God, let alone requiring such "manifestations" in order to exert an effect.

You are correct!  It is clear that you have a very high view of God.  Yes, praise his name, he is unchangeable.  Always trustworthy.  Completely dependable.

My understanding of God is that Jesus has always from eternity past been an integral facet of God.  Jesus coming to earth and enageging with people and his death and resurrection was not God changing, rather it was God manifesting openly his eternal character of loving forgiveness.  There was no 'improvment' of course! How can God improve?  God's work of covering our shameful deeds and removing our fear has always been active and on going. It was a perfect plan which reached fulfuilment in Jesus' life death and resurrection on earth and will be consumated when Jesus the Messiah returns again as judge and is seen by all as LORD.

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On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

We are separated from God because of the same that our deeds bring on us, so we hide from God.

That’s polytheism, no matter how hard you try to explain this pagan Indian trinity you fall into all sorts of heresies. We Are distinct from God because were human commonsense, humans can get closer to God Spiritually and when the believers are in heaven they are closer to God through their understanding of God then they are on earth, which equates to being spiritually close to God. And your not consistent, nothing can be hidden from God. 
 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

This is the story of Adam found in the Torah Genesis 3. 

The story of Adam in the Torah is evidently corrupted. 
 

This taught by a disciple who is close to Jesus. Use your head on that one. 

"But I shall begin with this statement now. God having made all things, if any one will not allow to a man, fashioned by His hands, to have possessed  foreknowledge, how does not he greatly err who attributes it to another born of a spurious stock!  And I do not think that he will obtain forgiveness, though he be misled by spurious scripture to think dreadful things against the Father of all. For he who insults the things belonging to the eternal King, has the sin reckoned as committed against Him. But then, says he, the divine foreknowledge left him when he sinned. and how can he escape the serious danger who says this? But perhaps he received foreknowledge after he sinned. Then it is given to the unrighteous; and where is justice? But it was granted to the just and the unjust. This having being the most unrighteous of all. Thus every falsehood, though it be aided by ten thousand reasonings, must receive its refutation, though after a long time.

Be not deceived. Our father was ignorant of nothing; since indeed, even the torah publicly prominent, though charging him with the crime of ignorance for the sake of unworthiness, sends to him those desirous of knowledge saying, Ask your father, and he will tell you; your elders, and they will declare to you.' This father, these elders ought to be inquired of. But you have not inquired those present in the time of the kingdom, and those present in the seat of prophecy, though he himself points out himself, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; all things whatsoever they say to you, hear them.' Hear them, he said, as entrusted with the key of the kingdom, which is knowledge, which alone can open the gate of life, through which alone is the entrance to eternal life. But truly he says, they possess the key, but those wishing to enter they do not suffer to do so.

 

On this account, I say, he himself, rising from his seat as a father for his children, proclaiming the things which from the beginning were delivered in secret to the worthy, extending mercy even to the gentiles and compassionating the souls of all, left his own kindred. For he, by predestination, has usurped the kingdom that is now present. And the thing which exceedingly grieved him is this, that by those very people for whom, as for their sons, he battled for, he was attacked, on account of their ignorance. And yet he wept over the unbelieving, and blessed those who slandered him, and prayed for those who were in enmity against him.  And not only did he do this as a father, but also taught his disciples to do the like, carrying it out themselves in the same way towards their brethren. This did our God, this did our Prophet. This is reasonable, that he should be king over his children; that by the affection of a father towards his children, and the engrafted respect of children towards their father, everlasting peace might be produced. For when the good man reigneth, there is true joy among those who are ruled over, on account of him who rules.


But give heed to my first discourse about the truth. If any one does not allow the man fashioned by the hands of God to have had foreknowledge, how is he not guilty of the greatest impiety in allowing another born of an impure stock to have it? He himself being the only true prophet, fittingly gave names to each animal, according to the merits of its nature, as having made it. For if he gave a name to any one, that was also the name of that which was made, being given by Him who made it. How, then, had he still need to partake of a tree, that he might know what is good and what is evil, if he was commanded not to eat of it? But these senseless men believe it, who think that a irrational beast was more powerful than the God who made these things.


But a companion was created along with him, a female nature, much differing from him, as quality as the moon from the sun, as fire from light. Let there be known to us two genuine prophecies, and let it be known that the first has been positioned in the order of their advent; "Hence the ambiguous name which she gave to her first-born son, calling him Cain, which has a capability of interpretation in two ways; for it is interpreted both Possession and Envy, as signifying that in the future he was to envy either a woman, or possessions, or the love of the parents towards Abel. But if it be none of these, then it will befall him to be called the Possession. For she possessed him first, which also was advantageous to him. For he was a murderer and a liar, and with his sins was not willing to be at peace with respect to the leadership. Moreover, those who came forth by succession from him were the first adulterers. And there were psalteries, and harps, and forgers of instruments of war. Wherefore also the prophecy of his descendants being full of adulterers and of psalteries, secretly by means of pleasures excites to wars.

 

But he who had prophecy innate to his soul as belonging to it, expressly, indicating the hopes of the world to come, called his own son Abel, which without any ambiguity is translated Grief. For he assigns to his sons to grieve over their deceived brethren. He does not deceive them when he promises them comfort in the world to come. When he says that we must pray to only one God, he neither himself speaks of gods, nor does he believe another who speaks of them. He keeps the good which he has, and grows more and more. He hates sacrifices, bloodshed, and libations; he loves the chaste, the pure, the holy. He quenches the fire of altars, represses wars, teaches pious preachers wisdom, purges sins, sanctions marriage, approves temperance, leads all to chastity, makes men liberal, prescribes justice, seals those of them who are perfect, publishes the word of peace, prophesies explicitly, speaks decidedly, frequently makes mention of the eternal fire of punishment, constantly announces the kingdom of God, indicates heavenly riches, promises unfading glory, shows the remission of sins by works. And what more is there need to say? in some, things speaks truth, in some, falsehood.”

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On 5/26/2021 at 1:24 AM, Tabassum Iman said:

You are guessing and making up possible scenarios.

And so are you with your baseless claims. You have zero proof. 

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On 6/8/2021 at 6:55 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

You are correct!  It is clear that you have a very high view of God.  Yes, praise his name, he is unchangeable.  Always trustworthy.  Completely dependable.

My understanding of God is that Jesus has always from eternity past been an integral facet of God.  Jesus coming to earth and enageging with people and his death and resurrection was not God changing, rather it was God manifesting openly his eternal character of loving forgiveness.  There was no 'improvment' of course! How can God improve?  God's work of covering our shameful deeds and removing our fear has always been active and on going. It was a perfect plan which reached fulfuilment in Jesus' life death and resurrection on earth and will be consumated when Jesus the Messiah returns again as judge and is seen by all as LORD.

Explain how this differs from the other Prophets God sent, such as Adam, also being a manifestation from God? Are they not equally "manifestations" in the sense you are conveniently using it above?

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On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

When a Christian looks at God, they worship the one creator of the universe.  That one God has revealed himself and his character though three distinct yet entwined persons. 

No Trinitarians don’t worship the one true God, the worship three God’s by simply saying, the trinity is, the father the son and the Holy Spirit are of one essence but are distinct but they are one and are coequal and co-eternal. 
 

now the fact that you say three are DISTINCT and share the same essence shows that you worship three gods and by saying they co-eternal affirms this. Then this yous start contradicting yourselves falling into all sorts of heresies and not being consistent, God made up of three parts, Modalism (both types), separationism, tritheism, and having 4 gods, a group known as “God”.
 

God doesn’t have various personalities otherwise that would be modalism and the same way humans have only one personality and it is described by others  likewise with God He has only one personality and it is understood and described through His actions and what He has said of Himself. 
 

By saying God revealing himself and his character through DISTINCT persons, explicitly shows modalism, the son is not the father nor the holy spirit nor is the father the son or the Holy Spirit and likewise with the Holy Spirit they all act differently to each other and are limited in one why or another. Adding “entwined” adds nothing it only shows how inconsistent you are and it it is completely opposite to the passages prior to it and after it.  you said entwined “persons”, that is contradicting since “persons”, which is PLURAL, is mentioned after it. If there is more the one person and you mention “entwined” prior to it this implies the three are co-equal (which they are not) not that they are absolute one because you mentioned prior to that they the THREE are DISTINCT; and also after “PERSONS” which is plural. 
 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

You are right God can not die physically.

God doesn’t have form in the first place, “physical” implies God has a form which is contradicts the Torah Deuteronomy 4:12 “The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no form, just a voice.” We human’s do not know God’s essence because we are limited, that which is limited cannot comprehend that which absolutely limited. 
 

Exodus 20:2-4

“I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. 
 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah’s death was when his body ceased to function – that is what our death will be too.  His essence – soul – continued to exist.  This is true for us too, we do not cease to exist when our body stops working.

You just admitted Jesus is not God by making him equal to us. Death is is just transition from one realm to another, our bodies will be brought back in heaven the same way God gave authority to prophet Ezekiel to bring back the bodies to life. Yes the body is also in heaven as we can clearly see when prophet Elias went upto heaven and also prophet Jesus when he went up to heaven. 
 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

He chose through spiritual separation from other members of the Godhead to take our place, come to where we are in order to rescue us, and defeat death and the devil.

You make absolutely zero sense.  If Jesus separated himself “spiritually” from the Godhead (which begs the question who is the 4th person?) then that means Jesus is subordinate and dependent on the other 3 and is not close to the 3 spiritually which means he is not close to “God” spiritually which makes him not a good role model. your not being consistent by saying “to take our place, come to where we are....”  by saying that Jesus came to our place only affirms the fact that Trinitarians believe in 3 or 4 gods since the four are distinct and Jesus Separated himself from the Father and the Holy Spirit and the 4th person since you said “Godhead”. This were you start falling into the trap of modalism and God made up of three parts and the 3 make up a group which is know as “God” and separationism. 
 

On 5/24/2021 at 12:29 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

3. You then said Jesus the Messiah is God, a clear contradiction from point 1. God cannot die, but Jesus died, and yet somehow these 2 individuals are the same ? If we are talking about the physical death, it's complete nonsense since God can't physically die. If we are talking about spiritual death, it makes even less sense since what you're saying is that God is breaking a relationship him himself ???

You completely avoided that. 
 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The firefighter doesn’t stand outside the burning house shouting instructions.  They enter the very situation and confront the danger so they can carry the person out.  Often that person is injured and unable to save themselves. 

Comparing a prophetic career to a fire fighter, is just as ridiculous as comparing mechanic to a doctor or a fire fighter to an ambulance, they are both completely different careers. The whole purpose of a messenger of God and prophet is to convey the message of God to His creation and be an example to them regarding the teachings God is conveying through His messengers. 
 

this whole idea that Jesus needs to die for other people’s sins is unjust, contradicting and blasphemous. im sure some people have addressed how unjust that doctrine is, I’ll remind you of it. 
 

Judge1. Once upon a time there was a young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted it and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, the judge told the young man that you will be sent to jail unless you pay 100k to be set free, as the judge was finishing speaking with him a man came in and said to the judge “I will pay for his debt” so the judge accepted the payment and the young man was released. 


we can see that Judge1 didn’t forgive the young man at all rather he required a payment and someone came in and paid for that debit and the young man was forgiven by being set free, that is after the payment.   In the case of Jesus dying for your sins, God didn’t forgive your sins by having Jesus dying for your sins rather God accepted a payment for someone else’s debit. Accepting a payment of someone else for the debit of someone else is not forgiveness; forgiveness would be canceling the debt of the the one who’s in debit, in our case concerning this discussion, it would be God forgiving the sins of the sinner without the payment of sacrifices which God clearly emphasised on and was pushing it unto the children of Israel from time of prophet Samuel. 
 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Hosea 6:6  “For I desire mercy, and not sacrifices, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt-offerings.”

We can see here God wants people to seek His forgiveness through His mercy nor sacrifices, so this idea that a person cannot be forgiven except through Jesus’ death is nonsense and is defeated by the fact that God does not like sacrifices and a person can be forgiven through God’s mercy and God desires people to seek forgiveness through His mercy, as a result shows Jesus died for nothing! This whole Pauline teaching that we short of glory (whatever that means it makes no sense) is nonsensical because Jesus himself taught otherwise. He taught that God’s door of Mercy is always open and that God turns to his fellow servants in compassion for just making the intention to turn back to God. 
 

Luke 15:

The Parable of the Lost Son

11Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13“Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21“The son said to him, ‘father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22“But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate.24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25“Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28“The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31“ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”


In the parable we can see here that younger son inherited his fathers estate sold it and gathered all he head and went on to live a wild life. verse 30 gives us a hint on what is meant by wild living, then the younger son faces poverty and also a famine, in verse 17 he realises what is happening to him is because he wronged his father and transgressed against the heavens as verse 18 shows. Also verse 18-19 shows the younger son has an intention to say to his father the he has wronged him and has transgressed against the heavens and to humble himself before his father saying, “I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make like one of your hires servants”. In verse 20 we can see that younger son’s father saw him from afar and had compassion for him and not only that but he ran to him and embraced him. 
 

in verse 21 the younger son confesses to his father that he has wronged him and transgressed against the heavens, In verse 22 the father overlooks his confession and does not reply to him rather he said to his servants to dress him with the best rope, put a ring on his finger, put a pair sandals on his feet and to bring fattened calf and kill it to celebrate the return of his son. 
 

We learn from this parable Is this: 

to seek forgiveness 

1. A person Recognises what he had done was wrong and has transgressed against the heavenly laws and God. For we can see in verse 17 he recognises what is happening to him and it is because of his actions as verse 18 indicates. 
 

2. Make and have the intention to turn back to God and confess your sin(s) to God. For we can see in verse 18 he makes and has an intention to return back to his father and confess to him his transgression against him and the heavens

3. humble yourself before God when making the intention you’re turning back to God and confessing your sin(s) to Him. For we can see in verse 19 the younger son is humbling himself saying, “ I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make like one of your hired servants”

4. Affirm those intentions by fulfilling them. for in verse 21 the younger son fulfilled the intentions the he had. 
 

God’s door of mercy: 

In verse 20 young man’s father saw him from afar and had compassion for the young man. Like wise God has compassion for those who have made the intention to turn back to God and is willing to embrace them. And also The young man still didn’t confess to his father yet, yet his father had compassion for him from afar; this shows God’s door of mercy is always open, God is always willing to forgive. 
 

2. In verse 21 when the young man confessed to his father, in verse 22 we can see that the father overlooked his confession and paid no attention to it rather he called for his servant put on a robe on his son, and a ring on his hand and a pair of sandals and told his servant to kill the fattened calf to celebrate the return of his son. 
 

this shows that God has already forgiven those who made the intention to turn back to Him as verse 21 shows since the father didn’t reply to his son after his confession and paid no attention. When you confess to God humbly you are only affirming your intentions. And in verse 22 that shows God gives His bounties to the one who has turned back to God for doing such a righteous deed. 

 

Judge2. Once upon a time there was young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted the crime that he committed and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, so the judge told the young man “I will forgive you but on one condition....that you will never do it again” the young man was very glad and did not see the jail

 

person who was standing before judge2 regretted his crime. that would be interpreted as the person regretted committing a sin.

the person standing before judge2 was expressing his regret and begging for mercy, when the person was begging for mercy he was begging for forgiveness, judge2 would forgive him but on a certain condition.

that would be interpreted as the person expressing his regret of committing the sin to God & asking God for forgiveness and this is the condition, The ones that I mentioned which is in the parable of the lost son. 

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Guest Azrael
On 5/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Isaiah 53:4-6

That is not about Jesus at all, and the Christian bible terribly mistranslates the chapter of 53; Jesus doesn’t meet the standards of it, the passage is about prophet Jeremiah.

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13 hours ago, dragonxx said:

such as Adam, also being a manifestation from God? Are they not equally "manifestations" in the sense you are conveniently using it above?

 He tried to play it safe, a very desperate attempt but he refuted the trinity because the trinity is, the Father, the son and the holy spirit are co-equal, co-eternal, and are of one essence but are distinct and they are one; what he said denounces that, he’s not being consistent and is contradicting himself.  No matter what wordings they use it still puts them into all kind of heresies and refuted themselves and this where they use the jail free card or “getaway” card by saying “it is a mystery” it’s not a mystery, it’s a stupidity because they try to give different interpretation to what the trinity as is betrays (which is three gods), this is where they fall into these heresies, modalism, tritheism, separationism, God-made-up-of-three-parts and a group that is called “God”.  It is simply irrational to give an different interpretation to that which is clear in meaning, if the three are “DISTINCT” and are of the same “ESSENCE” and then mention “Co-eternal” but are “one”, the fact that “Distinct” is mentioned and “are of one essence” gives us a clear context and meaning that is the three are different from each other; but are of the same essence which tells us that three have the same nature but are different to each other which shows three are  3 gods since they are distinct from each other, mentioning “co-eternal” makes no difference because “Distinct” and “of the same essence” are mentioned, it only affirms that three are of the same nature “co-eternal”. That fact “co” is mentioned next to “eternal” shows that their is more than one member who is eternal which shows there are three gods not one God because there is only one eternal being not three; and adding “co-equal” also makes no difference aswell it only affirms that the three are equal in essence. And mentioning “but are one” only shows that the three share the same purpose since “Distinct” and “of the same essence” is mentioned. This is basic grammar and commonsense, it’s really surprising how stupid a human can be despite being blessed with a quiet intelligent mind by God almighty. 
 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:55 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

My understanding of God is that Jesus has always from eternity past been an integral facet of God

By saying Jesus being a integral facet of God only shows he is no different to all the prophets, matter of fact no different to the whole creations of God because they manifest the attributes given to God 

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