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In the Name of God بسم الله

Crucifixion Of Jesus

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36 minutes ago, F.M said:

its all collected in the first testament together with thora

Sorryvi just opened my bible, thorah is somehow not included in bible. Maybe because it contains more than 5000 scriptures.

other things that contains in the old testament is some history books.And some books from israelite prophets, And i found out my last name from my mom is also included in it which i found funny and didn't knew that :D

and about Thora, possibly only used by jews themselves. I tought christians also used it, which isnt the case

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2 hours ago, F.M said:

we have it

Just because the/a church leadership says they have it, does not mean that any reputable scholarship does. For one thing, the style of Hebrew does not fit the Davidic-Era.

 

2 hours ago, F.M said:

that means lots is lost)

Some in my textbook edition attribute Psalms to Solomon -(عليه السلام). , and also has a few attributed to David -(عليه السلام). (although that is incorrect according to hadith) and a few attributed to "unknown authors."

2 hours ago, Berber-Shia said:

but I was always told that Judah Iskariot took the form of Jesus

l ain't never heared that krazy dang b.s. before.

What kind of wacky under-the-spike/spire do you go to?

2 hours ago, F.M said:

with what you said.. gospels is really messed up. 

^^Yes and No. As l posted above, when the decision was made to adjoin all the churches from every area of the Mediterranean, every possible effort was made to be accurate. But since there was so much contradictory material, or isolated information that could not be corroborated, the compilers had to construct a narrative. One was to co-opt the Secret Book of Mark, delete the two-three verses  that clearly suggested that lsa -(عليه السلام). was a homosexual, and then in response to the heretics say "we already have this book". Another was the crucifixion stories. These were/are fairly similar, but the problem was that most of what they considered reliable said it didn't happen, only the ascension. So this is how they decided: the heretics -or what we'd call sick-in-the-heads with their crazy fantasies, beliefs and sexual rituals- were also divided as to the story; but the Chis!ians were 3:2 believers in the crucifixion story while the sick heretics were 2:3. So by using the plurality they could slowly convert away from the heretics -with only the Arians (several groups lumped together under Arian's name) refusing to go along. ln sum, a good intention on this point. So, as today, Easter 2021, so much emphasis is put on it. lt is an anti-heretical position. A Muslim cannot fault that -because we will be judged by our intentions.

2 hours ago, Berber-Shia said:

especially Gospel of John.

 This menagerie contradicts itself within chapters and across chapters.

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l ain't never heared that krazy dang b.s. before.

What kind of wacky under-the-spike/spire do you go to?

                   Surah 4 Verse 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of The God'; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

(soo the christians/jews tought They killed jesus but they crossed Judas instead.)
......
even bible

In Gospel of Judas:

  • Jesus said to Judah-verse 56
  • 56 [which they've received in] my name […] will destroy the whole generation of the earthly Adam. Tomorrow they'll torture the one who bears me. Truly I [say] to you, no hand of a mortal human [will fall] upon me. Truly [I say] to you, Judas, those who offer sacrifices to Saklas […] everything that's evil. But you'll do more than all of them, because you'll sacrifice the human who bears me. Your horn has already been raised, your anger has been kindled, your star has ascended, and your heart has [strayed].

Judas speaks to Judas Privately:

  • Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him,“Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. 
    [36] For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] 
    may again come to completion with their god.”
  • Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the 
    great day of light dawn for the generation?” But when he said this, Jesus left 
    him.Someone else will replace the Judas Iscariot and that is another man who is Judas the one who will sacrifice himself instead of Jesus.
  • Matthew 26:39 (KJV) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and 
    prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: 
    nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Did the Father answer Jesus or 
    not, did he pass the cup for Jesus (عليه السلام).?
  • If you say no, then how come after some hours he said this:
    Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me? Matthew 
    26:39...this tells you that its a completely different person...this inclination
    now changes because another man was sent down instead of Jesus and he is more capable toward the crucifixion.

————

There has also been a movie made from iranians about the life of messiah (i am not telling that i get scorces from A movie) but rather mean we muslims belief clear that Judas who betrayed Jesus got crossed. Strats from 1:11:00

 

this one is from 2008 infound it accidentally  i put the link to the topic into the post. Honestly I am starting to feel confused.... since when do we shia (muslims) belief Jesus got crossed??I growed up that judas got the face of jesus and got crossed instead. While jesus got saved.

On 1/14/2008 at 8:52 AM, SpIzo said:

According to Islamic hadith, it was Judas Iscariot, the traitor, who was crucified, his appearance having been changed to resemble that of Christ. The fact of crucifixion of Judas, whom all Jews, including the disciples and Christ's own mother, took for Christ, is accepted by the Quran and the hadith.

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/islam_christianity/10.htm

The Holy Qur`an does not make much distinct commentary on the companions of the Prophet Isa (عليه السلام). Most of what we know of them comes from the Christian and Jewish sources. It is generally known that the one disciple who is regarded as corrupt was Judas, who is known as the one who betrayed the Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) and turned him over to the Roman authorities.

Some accounts from Muslim source say that when the Romans came to arrest Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام), they had made arrangements with Judas that he should kiss Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) to identify him to the Romans. Allah Ta'ala informed Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) of the conspiracy. When the Romans arrived, Allah made Judas resemble Hazrat (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) kissed him first. Thus, Judas was taken and crucified.

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/Aali...k/msg00449.html

It is reported that al-Ridà (‘a) said, “When the Jews wanted to kill Jesus, he called upon Allah by our truth,([37]) then He saved him from being murdered and raised him.”

(Bihàr, 14, 339, 14)

12. It is related in the tafsír attributed to Imam Hasan ‘Askarí that regarding the verse, and We strengthened him with the holy spirit (2:87) he said, “He is Gabriel, and this was when Allah raised him through a hole in his house to heaven, and He cast his likeness on the one who had desired to kill him, so he was killed instead of him.”

(Bihàr, 14, 338, 10)

. . .[continuation of a hadith] Then Allah raised Jesus from the corner of the house, while they were looking at him.” Then Abu Ja‘far u continued, “Verily, the Jews came seeking Jesus that night, and took the man about whom Jesus (‘a) had said that he would disbelieve in him before twelve men became disbelievers. And they took the youth upon whom the semblance of Jesus had been cast. Then he was killed and crucified. And the one about whom Jesus (‘a) had said that he would disbelieve in him before twelve men became disbelievers disbelieved.”

(Bihàr 14, 336, 6)

Jesus through Shiite Narrations

 

Also there were some narataions i growed up with stating that Judas (if it goes to Physical  Appereance) had the most similair face to Jesus himself and that caused that often people got confused. Because Judas is also a family memebernof Jesus, I think both are descendants of Yahuda, But not sure 

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

^Yes and No. As l posted above, when the decision was made to adjoin all the churches from every area of the Mediterranean, every possible effort was made to be accurate. But since there was so much contradictory material, or isolated information that could not be corroborated, the compilers had to construct a narrative. One was to co-opt the Secret Book of Mark, delete the two-three verses  that clearly suggested that lsa -(عليه السلام). was a homosexual, and then in response to the heretics say "we already have this book". Another was the crucifixion stories. These were/are fairly similar, but the problem was that most of what they considered reliable said it didn't happen, only the ascension. So this is how they decided: the heretics -or what we'd call sick-in-the-heads with their crazy fantasies, beliefs and sexual rituals- were also divided as to the story; but the Chis!ians were 3:2 believers in the crucifixion story while the sick heretics were 2:3. So by using the plurality they could slowly convert away from the heretics -with only the Arians (several groups lumped together under Arian's name) refusing to go along. ln sum, a good intention on this point. So, as today, Easter 2021, so much emphasis is put on it. lt is an anti-heretical position. A Muslim cannot fault that -because we will be judged by our intentions.

When I talk that Gospels is messed up, I mean by that, The Gospel send from God to Jesus iS never found. So people use some scriptires of the apostles Stating about the life of jesus (not written by jesus) And because the real ones are never found, people replace Gospels with some scriptures written by The apostles. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Some in my textbook edition attribute Psalms to Solomon -(عليه السلام). , and also has a few attributed to David -(عليه السلام). (although that is incorrect according to hadith) and a few attributed to "unknown authors."

 

Yes duh, salamon is the son of david, He lived also in the time David was alive. And lets not forget both are prophets and both are masoom. If god wanted to include some songs of solomon into te psalms then it happens.  

 

And No, pslams is send down to David, not salamon. But yes, obviously in the psalms it would be logically that there is also written about Salamon because its the son of David. And its known that he will rule after the death of his father.

which unknown authors? You mean things changed up,?that can be true because people always changed old scriptures, but not forget that the old scriptures are less likely to be changed compared to the Gospels. At least the last testament is directly from prophets and they got it from God. Soo what is the reason for jews and others to change it?

if you read psalms, ,ost of the texts are prayers and are actually a bit comparable to Quran, it praised god and etc..

 

 

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10 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

There ain't no 'gospel of judas'.

There is a letter of "Jude" and it only has ~25 verses.

THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS

https://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/judastxt.pdf

JESUS SPEAKS TO JUDAS PRIVATELY

Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him, “Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. [36] For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their god.” Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day of light dawn for the generation?” But when he said this, Jesus left him

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Just now, hasanhh said:

This is 2nd Century C.C. Gnostic garbage, rejected by everyone but heretics.

soo? the whole gospel is changed up . so you beleif that Isa (عليه السلام) got crossed? 

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11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This is 2nd Century C.C. Gnostic garbage, rejected by everyone but heretics.

For now all gospels are contradicting one another. 

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On 4/2/2021 at 12:58 AM, Abu Nur said:

What I believe is that Qur'an do state it position clearly, but it is us that we need to know to what narrative of previous books Qur'an is trying to reply. I believe that Qur'an is replying to the Jewish Talmud NOT Christians account. 

I think it addresses both and stating historical fact.
On an interesting note, the Jewish historian Josephus, who wrote a history of the Jewish wars with the Romans has an account of a prophet named Jesus (or Yeshua) who prophetised about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. That prophet Jesus was persecuted by the pharisee Jews and handed over to the Romans. However the Romans did not crucify him and instead released him. He was later killed by a projectile from a catapult during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. The only thing wrong with that story is that it doesn't fit the time line of the Christian church. If this was indeed the prophet Jesus, then he was not in his mid 30's when he died, but in his late 60's.

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On 4/1/2021 at 4:58 PM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified himit was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. 4:156-157

When it comes to crucifixion of Jesus, there is not even one sahih narrations from Shia and Sunni books which can explain clearly the Quranic verses in this matter. What I believe is that Qur'an do state it position clearly, but it is us that we need to know to what narrative of previous books Qur'an is trying to reply. I believe that Qur'an is replying to the Jewish Talmud NOT Christians account. 

In Tractate Sanhedrin 43a of the Babylonian Gemara (Talmoud) it says:

וכרוז יוצא לפניו לפניו אין מעיקרא לא והתניא בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו מ' יום ישו יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב הפסח

The mishna teaches that a crier goes out before the condemned man. This indicates that it is only before him, i.e., while he is being led to his execution, that yes, the crier goes out, but from the outset, before the accused is convicted, he does not go out. The Gemara raises a difficulty: But isn’t it taught in a baraita: On Passover Eve they hung the corpse of Jesus the Nazarene after they killed him by way of stoning. And a crier went out before him for forty days, publicly proclaiming: Jesus the Nazarene is going out to be stoned because he practiced sorcery, incited people to idol worship, and led the Jewish people astray. Anyone who knows of a reason to acquit him should come forward and teach it on his behalf. And the court did not find a reason to acquit him, and so they stoned him and hung his corpse on Passover eve.

The Qur'an verses says:

But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so.

The Jews thought that they killed Jesus by stoning him to death and then hanged his death corpse. Qur'an deny first the Killing by stone, means they did not killed him by their hand and nor did they crucified him, where they joyfully and boastfully mocking him. 

I believe Qur'an clearly state the true position here:

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take (mutawaffīka )you  and raise you to Myself and purify [i.e., free] you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Quran 3:55

I believe that God took the spirit of Jesus (عليه السلام) before his actual natural death could happen in cross. Mutawaffīka means to remove one soul from the body. So Jesus died (body) on cross but not killed by the cross or stoning! He did not die at the hands of his enemies , he was saved and raptured up by God. This is also what Christians claim and can be supported by their books, old testament and Qur'an.

Read the Old Testament:

Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed (messiah); He will answer him from his holy heaven with the saving might of his right hand. - Psalms 20:6

“Because he[a] loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
    I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;
    I will be with him in trouble,
    I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
    and show him my salvation.” Psalms 91:14-16

Another Quranic verse that supports Psalms:

and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] Quran 5:110

---

I believe that Jesus (عليه السلام) chooses by his own will to accept the crucifixion, showing how much he will sacrifice himself for God. But in the cross God saved him by raised him to Himself.  He manifested the wording of Qur'an:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Verily, my Salat (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the ‘Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). Quran 6:162

 

I came to many of the same "conclusions" from the point of view that the Quran corrects Christian dogma and questions doctrines while filling in blanks.  
The Gospel of Barnabas is so far removed but it only sounds nice. There is an Epistle of Barnabas as well but most Muslims won't read past the 5th chapter.

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43 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l wrote nothing that contradicts Quran.

Jesus got crossed or not according to you? 

because i dont belief he got killed or even touched by the cross 

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21 minutes ago, Berber-Shia said:

Shouldn't be trusted at all. Gnostics were/are some crazy nutjobs. 

Usually i don't read them, I found them 

because i don't believe the gospels either, that Jesus got crossed. All gospels contradicts one another.No matter how old they are and where they come from. 

j

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51 minutes ago, F.M said:

Jesus got crossed or not according to you? 

because i dont belief he got killed or even touched by the cross 

It's appear to them that they killed him and crucificated. Means they see Jesus body in cross thinking it was them who killed and crucificated him. When God said no, it means two things. Either Jesus was not in cross but someone else or Jesus was in cross, suffered but then God raised him before his natural death.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Jesus was in cross, suffered but then God raised him before his natural death

so basically dead? 

when we sleep we are also half dead and easy at the point to die. if Allah took his soul out of his body that means he is technically dead. 

but yea everyone has its own understanding. i respect youre opinion and everyone others. 

I still belief someone else got crucified (judas) while Jesus got saved and risen 

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1 minute ago, F.M said:

so basically dead? 

when we sleep we are also half dead and easy at the point to die. if Allah took his soul out of his body that means he is technically dead. 

but yea everyone has its own understanding. i respect youre opinion and everyone others. 

I still belief someone else got crucified (judas) while Jesus got saved and risen 

No dead, he did not die in the cross. There is different between mutawaffīka and Mawtihi. The first is used in the event of cross and the second is used in his second coming where he will die naturally.

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5 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

I think it addresses both and stating historical fact.
On an interesting note, the Jewish historian Josephus, who wrote a history of the Jewish wars with the Romans has an account of a prophet named Jesus (or Yeshua) who prophetised about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. That prophet Jesus was persecuted by the pharisee Jews and handed over to the Romans. However the Romans did not crucify him and instead released him. He was later killed by a projectile from a catapult during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. The only thing wrong with that story is that it doesn't fit the time line of the Christian church. If this was indeed the prophet Jesus, then he was not in his mid 30's when he died, but in his late 60's.

Amazing that each story has to be different. The part you can believe and the part you can't. 
Surah 4 is interesting. It starts with many attributes Christians should have. The it goes on to talk about the Jews. If you follow it, it mentions Jews so often they become "they". By the time you get to 156, "they" are definitely the Jews. The land was under the Roman empire, the Jews had no jurisdiction, nor power. They boasted, and to this day you'll find people who believe the Jews killed Jesus, but those who study know better. 

Jesus last miracle; He cried a loud sigh and gave up the ghost. Neither you nor I can just "give up the ghost". We can poison ourselves but God determines the time you die and if your soul ascends or descend. The real Christ ascended, God took Him. Time to stop the conjecture over the body and see the deeper meaning.  In that sense, He was not crucified. It's like dying of pneumonia because you caught covid. The NT has four versions of the cross, the Quran didn't need to correct or fill in.  

159 then calls the Jews the "people of the book", The witness against them was the resurrections three days later, it caused a few skid marks in some robes. 
In 162 it speaks of the "firm/well grounded in knowledge", believers and those who obey will have immense rewards. The ones well grounded in knowledge were the twelve that followed Him for three years. They went on to preach a risen savior.

163 goes in to another subject.

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Posted (edited)

The jews are mocking Jesus and his followers to think they killed the Messiah so they could prove that Jesus was not messiah in first place. What kind of evil test someone prophethood by trying to kill them?

The jews could praise us muslim about the tawheed and tell us how they are closer to muslims than christians. But Try to talk about messiah and let see if they will remain on their claims. The closest to us are christians: 

You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant

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On 4/6/2021 at 1:11 AM, Abu Nur said:

he jews could praise us muslim about the tawheed and tell us how they are closer to muslims than christians. But Try to talk about messiah and let see if they will remain on their claims. The closest to us are christians: 

In terms of twheed yes, but not in terms of hellfire and judgement day. Jews don't believe in hellfire and judgement day.

 

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On 4/27/2021 at 8:43 PM, Abu Nur said:

Then what about the claim in quran where they say the fire will touch us for few days?

Ask your local Rabi. He will say that Jews believe in no such thing as hell fire. He might say that after death Jews will be put in a washing machine that will wash away all their sins, but there is no punishment, suffering or agony. The "washing machine" might be what the Quran referring to in your quote.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Ask your local Rabi. He will say that Jews believe in no such thing as hell fire. He might say that after death Jews will be put in a washing machine that will wash away all their sins, but there is no punishment, suffering or agony. The "washing machine" might be what the Quran referring to in your quote.

Two Jews three opinions. 

Quote

The "washing machine" might be what the Quran referring to in your quote.

And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

Perhaps yes. They (at least the jews in medina and their common time) do acknowledge that such a thing exist, fire, suffering for cleaning the sins. But as the verse says, they think the jew sinners will only be few days there. That's why they may have such a mentality that no Jews will stay there.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

That's why they may have such a mentality that no Jews will stay there.

I once discussed it with the former chief Rabi in my country at an inter-religious panel discussion. When he said that there is no such thing as hell fire in Judaism, I felt like saying "ah that's why Natanyahoo behaves the way he does," but I was polite and did not say it in his face.

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On 4/1/2021 at 5:58 PM, Abu Nur said:

I believe that God took the spirit of Jesus (عليه السلام) before his actual natural death could happen in cross. Mutawaffīka means to remove one soul from the body. So Jesus died (body) on cross but not killed by the cross or stoning! He did not die at the hands of his enemies , he was saved and raptured up by God. This is also what Christians claim and can be supported by their books, old testament and Qur'an.

What about the passages that say they put Jesus' body in a tomb? 

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On 4/1/2021 at 6:28 PM, Abu Nur said:

What happened in cross is God saving him and raising him, taking his soul out of his body.

Here is gospel recorded Jesus was not crucified, in the middle of page :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Basilides

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Prophet Jesus Christ (عليه السلام) was not crucified. Angel Commander Dimas sacrificed himself and was able to convince the persecutors (Roman and Jewish) calling for Prophet Jesus Christ's (عليه السلام) death that he was Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام). Angel Commander Dimas was crucified instead of Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام). Prophet Jesus Christ (عليه السلام) was rescued with his Mother Mary (SA) and taken away from region. They went to India and the surrounding region in order to reunite the lost tribes of Israel. He is well known in the region where many of the population are Buddhists. He is well known for wearing a wool scarf, wool cloak and for walking with a wooden staff.  He is recorded to have settled in Kashmir with his Mother Mary and to have lived to around 125 years old.

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On 5/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, Arminmo said:

Here is gospel recorded Jesus was not crucified, in the middle of page :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Basilides

There were a lot of heretical gospels written.  Some omitted from the NT because they were a single theory that contradicted all others, some because the level of spirituality freaked them out. Cornelius Tactitus was a secular historian who mentioned the death of Christ. The B Babylonian Talmud said Jesus would be hung, Lucian was another, critical of Jesus and said he was crucified, The letter of Mara Barsarapion wrote a letter to his son telling him Jesus was killed. The letter is now in the British Museum. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. He didn't mention the crucifixion but did mention the darkness, earthquakes and, an eclipse of the sun.” Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment of the writing of Phlegon who also mentions the eclipse. There are a few more. 
Muslims also like the Gospel of Barnabus but wouldn't make it past the 5th chapter in his epistle.

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On 5/3/2021 at 7:14 AM, Revert1963 said:

I once discussed it with the former chief Rabi in my country at an inter-religious panel discussion. When he said that there is no such thing as hell fire in Judaism, I felt like saying "ah that's why Natanyahoo behaves the way he does," but I was polite and did not say it in his face.

They don’t believe a Satan or devil character exists either 

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