The very worrying account of the Prophet's Marriages

[khamosh21]

Recently in a thread I was discussing the Prophet's marriage to Aisha... I couldn't find the historical account of why this marriage took place. So I decided to do a search on al-islam.org, I still wasn't able to find out why the marriage took place, but I did come across something even more worrisome. Here I copy paste excerpts from the shocking and unbelievable account of the Prophet's marriages found in Hayatul Qulub by Allameh Majlisi. I will not do a commentary or ask questions (for now), other than how can anyone trust our historical accounts? I have also bolded parts I found just really strange.

One thing to keep in mind, we are told these marriages took place for socio-policital purposes, let's see how well that is reflected in this account:

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/wives-prophet-their-number-and-brief

 

Wives of the Prophet – their number and a brief account of them

Ibn Babawayh has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).) that the Holy Prophet (S) married fifteen women and established relations with thirteen of them. He left nine widows and two ladies with whom the Holy Prophet (S) had not established relations. One was Umrah and another was Shanawa.

The remaining thirteen are as follows: Khadija binte Khuwailad, Sauda binte Zamaa, Umm Salma, who was named Hind, she was the daughter of Abi Umayyah, Ayesha binte Abu Bakr, whose agnomen was Umm Abdullah, Hafasa binte Umar bin Khattab, Zainab binte Khuzaimah al-Harith, who was referred to as Ummul Masakeen, Zainab binte Jahash, Ramla binte Abu Sufyan, whose agnomen was Umm Habib, Maimoona binte Harith, Zainab binte Umais, Juwairiya binte Harith, Safiya binte Huyy bin Akhtab, Salma binte Hakim who gifted her self to the Prophet; and there were two special slave girls who also had their turns as the wives had.
...
The third wife was Ayesha binte Abu Bakr. His Eminence had married her in Mecca when she was seven years old. Except for Ayesha the Prophet did not marry any virgin lady. Seven months after migration to Medina, the Prophet consummated his marriage to Ayesha, when she was nine years old.
...
The eleventh wife of the Prophet is Juwairiya binte Harith from Bani Mustaliq tribe; she had come to the Prophet as a captive in that battle. The Holy Prophet (S) emancipated her and then took her as his wife. She died in 56 A.H. The twelfth wife was Safiya binte Huyy bin Akhtab, who was chosen by the Prophet for himself from the booty of Khyber and he fixed her emancipation as her dower. She passed away in 36 A.H. The Holy Prophet (S) had consummated his marriage to all of them. He had performed Nikah with eleven of them and one wife had gifted herself to the Prophet.
...
This section talks about the multiple women that got divorced by the Prophet.
...
The seventh was Umra binte Yazid. When she was brought to the Holy Prophet (S) he noticed white patches on her and did not consummate the marriage, and divorced her.
...
... ninth was a woman of Bani Hamza tribe, who proposed to give herself to the Prophet but her father didn’t like the match and made an excuse that she had white spots.
...
The tenth report is that there was a woman named Umra and her father used to describe her good qualities and one of them was that she had never fallen sick. When the Holy Prophet (S) heard this, he said: “Such a woman has no merit in the sight of Allah.”

And he did not take her in marriage. Some have said that the Holy Prophet (S) had married her, but he divorced her when he came to know this fact. Thus on the basis of this report, the Messenger of Allah (S) had twenty wives. Shaykh Tusi says that the Holy Prophet (S) married eighteen women, and some have mentioned fifteen as mentioned previously.
...
Shaykh Tusi has narrated that the Holy Prophet (S) had two slave girls, with whom he had established relations and as he had fixed nights for his other wives, he had fixed nights for them also. One of them was Mariya binte Shamoon the Copt and the other was Raihana binte Zaid Qardiya.
...
Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).) has said that the Almighty Allah has made lawful for women to gift themselves to the Prophet and not for anyone else. Ali bin Ibrahim has also narrated this report but he has mentioned Ayesha instead of Hafasa.

Kulaini etc. have narrated through authentic chains of narrators that the Almighty Allah has only allowed women to gift themselves to the Holy Prophet (S) and it is not allowed to marry women without paying the dower. There is consensus of Shia and Sunni scholars that marriage with the word of Hiba (gift) is among the specialties of the Holy Prophet (S).
...
After that the Holy Prophet (S) married a woman of Kinda, binte Abil June when his son, Ibrahim died, that woman said that if he had been a Prophet, his son would not have died.
So the Prophet divorced her before consummating the marriage and sent her home. 
...
When the Holy Prophet (S) passed away from the world, both ladies of Bani Aamir and Bani Kinda came to Abu Bakr and asked him that people wanted to marry them, so what was his advice. Abu Bakr and Umar discussed among themselves and said: “You have the choice of remaining unmarried or to marry.” The unfortunate women got married.

At last by the miracle of the Prophet one of their husbands contracted leprosy and the other suffered from insanity.
...
Kulaini has narrated through reliable chains of narrators that when the Holy Prophet (S) used to propose to any woman, he used to send a lady to see her telling her to smell her neck, if it is fragrant, her whole body will be fragrant; and to pay attention to her shank, if it is meaty, her whole body will be meaty.

...
The narrator asked Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).): “How many women were lawful for the Holy Prophet (S).” Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) replied: “As many as he liked.” The narrators asked him what is the meaning of the following statement of Allah:

لَا يَحِلُّ لَكَ النِّسَاءُ مِنْ بَعْدُ وَلَا أَنْ تَبَدَّلَ بِهِنَّ مِنْ أَزْوَاجٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَكَ حُسْنُهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ

“It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses…”6

Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) replied: “It was allowed for the Messenger of Allah (S) to marry the daughters of his uncle and paternal aunts, paternal uncles and maternal aunts and marry the ladies who had migrated with him to Medina.
...
Kulaini has narrated through reliable chains of narrators from Imam Ali Reza ((عليه السلام).) that the Holy Prophet (S) had the sexual prowess of forty men. And he had nine wives and he used to meet them every day.
...
Account of the marriage of Zainab

Ibn Babawayh etc. have narrated from reliable chains of narrators from Imam Ali Reza ((عليه السلام).) that one day the Holy Prophet (S) went to the house of Zaid bin Haritha bin Sharjeel Kalbi. When he entered, he saw that the wife of Zaid was taking a bath. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Glory be the one Who has created you.” By this statement he meant that she must consider the Almighty Allah as pure and free from the saying of infidels who say that angels are the daughters of God, as the Almighty Allah has Himself said:

أَفَأَصْفَاكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ بِالْبَنِينَ وَاتَّخَذَ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنَاثًا ۚ إِنَّكُمْ لَتَقُولُونَ قَوْلًا عَظِيمًا

“What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying.”13

When the Holy Prophet (S) saw her bathing, he said: “I consider pure the one who has created you from the fact that he should have a son who is needful of purification and bath.” When Zaid returned home, Zainab told him about what the Prophet had said. Zaid thought that the Prophet had stated thus because he found Zainab beautiful. Then he came to the Prophet and said: “My wife is having a bad nature, I want to divorce her.”
...
Kulaini has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) that one day Abu Bakr and Umar came to Lady Umm Salma and asked her, “You were married to someone else before the Holy Prophet (S), tell us whether the Prophet was sexually stronger than him or not?” Lady Umm Salma said, “He is also like other men.”

After that the Holy Prophet (S) arrived and Umm Salma regretted what she had said. And she feared that some verse might be revealed about her, so she herself told the Prophet about what those two had said. The Messenger of Allah (S) was so infuriated that his complexion changed and there was perspiration on his brow. He came out of the house in such a way that his cloak was dragging on the ground. Then he came into the mosque ascended the pulpit and called the Ansar.

When they saw the Prophet in this condition, all armed themselves and presented themselves before the Prophet. The Messenger of Allah (S) praised and glorified the Almighty, why are some hypocrites busy to find some defects in me.

By Allah, I am greatest among you from the aspect of lineage and most pure of you from the aspect of birth and the most obedient one to the Almighty in the absence of the people. Of one of you asks me who his father is, I can tell you about it.” A person asked, “Who is my father?” The Holy Prophet (S) said, “It is so and so shepherd.”

Another man asked, “Who is my father?” The Holy Prophet (S) said, “So and so black slave.” Then a third person asked, “Who is my father?” The Holy Prophet (S) said, “Your father is same that people relate you to.”

Then Ansar arose asked, “O Prophet forgive us so that Allah may exalt your ranks, indeed the Almighty Allah has sent you as a mercy.” Since the Prophet had a habit that when people spoke to him in humility and requested him, due to shame, the forehead of the Prophet used to perspire and he used to conceal their defects.

Thus the Messenger of Allah (S) descended from the pulpit and went to his house. Next morning Jibraeel ((عليه السلام).) came down with a bowl of Paradise food and said: O Messenger of Allah (S), this is prepared for you by the Houries. You may eat it and except for you, Ali and his sons, no one may eat from it, because except for you no one is capable of it.

Thus the Holy Prophet (S), Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) sat down to eat from that bowl. Due to this, the Almighty Allah gave to the Prophet, the sexual power of forty men. After that it was such that whenever the Holy Prophet (S) wanted he could have intercourse with all of his wives on a single night.
...
It is narrated from Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) through authentic chains of narrators that one day the Messenger of Allah (S) saw a woman that he liked. So he came to the house of Umm Salma, and it was her turn that day; and the Holy Prophet (S) associated with her, then he performed the ritual bath and came out of the house. The water of his bath was dripping from his head. Then he said: “O people, glancing is due to the Shaitan, therefore if on seeing a woman, one of you feel desirous of sex he must come to his wife and sleep with her so that his desires are cooled.”
...
 ...is also narrated that these verses were revealed when one day the Holy Prophet (S) was at Hafasa’s place and Mariya the Copt was in his service.

During that time Hafasa went out on some errand and the Prophet had relations with Mariya. When Hafasa came to know about this, she was very angry and she said: O Messenger of Allah (S), you had relations with a slave girl on my bed, and on the day of my turn?” The Prophet was embarrassed at this and he said, “Cool down, I will not have relations with Mariya again. I have made her unlawful for myself.” These verses were revealed at that time.
...
Shaykh Tabarsi and Sunni commentators have reported that one day the Messenger of Allah (S) was in Hafasa’s place and she asked the Prophet if she could visit her father. The Prophet allowed her and she departed. The Prophet called for Mariya and remained in privacy with her. Hafasa returned to find the door closed till the Prophet opened it. Perspiration was dripping from his face. Hafasa was extremely angry at the Prophet. the Holy Prophet (S) said: “She is my slave girl and the Almighty Allah has made her lawful for me. But I have made her unlawful to me for your sake. However you don’t mention this to anyone.”

After that the Holy Prophet (S) went away from there. Immediately she began to beat with a stone the wall separating her quarter from that of Ayesha’s and she said: “Congratulations to you O Ayesha, the Holy Prophet (S) has made his slave girl, Mariya, unlawful from himself. It is good riddance for us.” Then she narrated the whole story to Ayesha as the two of them were united in harassing the other wives of the Prophet. At that time, the following verses were revealed. So the Holy Prophet (S) divorced Hafasa and kept away from all his wives for 29 days.

He stayed in the attic of Mariya till the Almighty Allah revealed the verse of choice. Some have said that the Prophet had relations with Mariya on the day of Ayesha’s turn and Hafasa had come to know about it. The Holy Prophet (S) had told Hafasa not to mention it to Ayesha as he has made Mariya unlawful for himself. But she immediately informed Ayesha and told her not to mention it to anyone. At that juncture, the Almighty Allah revealed the following verses..
...
And Ibn Babawayh and Barqi have narrated through reliable chains of narrators from Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).) that when the Qaim of Aale Muhammad will reappear, he will enliven Ayesha and punish her and take the revenge for Lady Fatima Zahra (s.a.). The narrator asked, “May I be sacrificed on you, why would he punish her?”

Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, “She had made allegations against Mariya, the Copt also.” The narrator asked why the Prophet had not punished her? And why did the Almighty Allah postpone this matter till the time of the Qaim. Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).) replied, “Because the Almighty Allah sent the Prophet as a mercy and appointed the Qaim Aale Muhammad for taking revenge.
 

[SoRoUsH]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

but I did come across something even more worrisome

 

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

One thing to keep in mind, we are told these marriages took place for socio-policital purposes

You probably found them worrisome because they make you question the common mainstream view of sexual desires and sexual relations in Islam, the one that most people grow up learning by default.

Other confused people, when reading about the prophet's marriages and sexual relations, due to their own misunderstandings of sexuality in Islam, inserted post-hoc reasons/excuses for the prophet's marriages and sexual relations. They, unnecessarily, added layers of socio-political reasons and excuses.

The confusion and your worry, most likely, come from the fact that you view sexuality and sexual relations and pleasure incorrectly. 

Sexual relations and pleasures are good in themselves. In Islam, sex, like worship, is good in itself. And good deeds are done solely for the sake of getting us closer to Allah. In other words, good permissible sex/intercourse, gets us closer to Allah.

The socio-political layers that were added by people are only to help themselves cope with their own cognitive dissonances. They cannot (and could not) comprehend how the prophet can be a divine role model and simultaneously profoundly fond of sexual relations and pleasures. Consequently, they make up and made up stories in their heads to justify (for themselves) why the prophet did what he did. 

The solution is to unlearn the mainstream viewpoint of Sexuality in Islam, and relearn it properly from the authentic narrations of Ahlul Bayt. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

 

You probably found them worrisome because they make you question the common mainstream view of sexual desires and sexual relations in Islam. 

Other confused people, when reading about the prophet's marriages a f sexual relations, due to their own misunderstandings of sexuality in Islam, inserted post-hoc reasons/excuses for the prophet's marriages a sexual relations. 

The confusion and your worry, most likely, come from the fact that you view sexuality and sexual relations and pleasure incorrectly. 

Sexual relations and pleasures are good in themselves. In Islam, sex, like worship, is good in itself. And good deeds are done solely for the sake of getting us closer to Allah. 

The socio-political layers that were added by people are only to help themselves cope with their own cognitive dissonances. They cannot (and could not) comprehend how the prophet can be a divine role model and simultaneously profoundly fond of sexual relations and pleasures. Consequently, they make up and made up stories in their heads to justify (for themselves) why the prophet did what he did. 

The solution is to unlearn the mainstream viewpoint of Sexuality in Islam, and relearn it properly from the authentic narrations of Ahlul Bayt. 

No actually that is not what worries me. What worries me the entire text is full of contradictions and contradicts many other concepts. It contradicts other historical accounts (e.g. Aisha's age is said to be 6 above but most scholars seem to disagree with this). My problem is i don't trust our historical accounts.

These accounts do not sound anything like the accounts of someone who was infallible. e.g. The Prophet was embarrassed at this and he said, “Cool down, I will not have relations with Mariya again. I have made her unlawful for myself.” 

The Prophet didn't say anything of his own will right?

Or divorcing someone over them having white spots...

I can write more of my own questions if you want.

[SoRoUsH]

7 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

My problem is i don't trust our historical accounts.

There is an easy solution here: 

Don't believe everything you read. 

Our books are riddled with unreliable information, stories and narrations. They are riddled with personal opinions and conjectures. Friends and foes, according to hearsay and incomplete knowledge, passed on and wrote down information that were collected in our books. 

The solution is to carefully sift through the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), check their isnad, and separate them accordingly to their degree of acceptability.

As you do so, coherent pictures of different topics begin to appear. 

 

[khamosh21]

6 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Don't believe everything you read. 

sadly i have reached a point where I don't believe anything i read, too many doubts about everything. For all purposes my mind and faith is agnostic. the above text is only one example.

[SoRoUsH]

6 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

sadly i have reached a point where I don't believe anything i read, too many doubts about everything. For all purposes my mind and faith is agnostic. the above text is only one example.

I can understand your frustration. However, as someone who's "been there", I recommend that you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. 

There's an immense amount of wisdom inside our books, inside the authentic and acceptable narrations of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

If finding and making gold was easy, it wouldn't be so valuable. Do the hard work now, and reap the rewards later. Easy come, easy go; but what you've worked hard for to attain will stay with you longer. 

So, don't give up. It's hard and certainly time-consuming to go through and sift through our books of narrations, but ultimately, as I'm finding out, it is totally worth it. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

I can understand your frustration. However, as someone who's "been there", I recommend that you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. 

There's an immense amount of wisdom inside our books, inside the authentic and acceptable narrations of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

If finding and making gold was easy, it wouldn't be so valuable. Do the hard work now, and reap the rewards later. Easy come, easy go; but what you've worked hard for to attain will stay with you for longer. 

So, don't give up. It's hard and certainly time-consuming to go through and soft through our books of narrations, but ultimately, as I'm finding out, it is totally worth it. 

don't see it happening, but thanks for your advice.

[khamosh21]

46 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

There is an easy solution here: 

Don't believe everything you read. 

Our books are riddled with unreliable information, stories and narrations. They are riddled with personal opinions and conjectures. Friends and foes, according to hearsay and incomplete knowledge, passed on and wrote down information that were collected in our books. 

The solution is to carefully sift through the narrations of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), check their isnad, and separate them accordingly to their degree of acceptability.

As you do so, coherent pictures of different topics begin to appear. 

 

How would you defend the above text if a non-muslim were to ask you about it?

[SoRoUsH]

9 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

How would you defend the above text if a non-muslim were to ask you about it?

I wouldn't. 

First, I'd ask them to see if they know whether these narrations are authentic/acceptable. If they don't, then it's up to them to find authentic/acceptable for us before asking us to defend them. Just because something is in our books, it doesn't mean they're authentic or worth any examination. 

Second, if they present authentic narrations, with acceptable isnad, then and only then, I'd care to discuss the topics. 

There's no point arguing over unacceptable narrations. 

So, let me ask you now, do you know which of the above points are based on authentic narrations? If so, please only present those ones. 

Also, present the associated acceptable narrations. 

 

It is not up to me to do your homework for you. (And this is what you could tell those non-muslims, too.)

 

[khamosh21]

1 minute ago, SoRoUsH said:

I wouldn't. 

First, I'd ask them to see if they know whether these narrations are authentic/acceptable. If they don't, then it's up to them to find authentic/acceptable for us before asking us to defend them. Just because something is in our books, it doesn't mean they're authentic or worth any examination. 

Second, if they present authentic narrations, with acceptable isnad, then and only then, I'd care to discuss the topics. 

There's no point arguing over unacceptable narrations. 

So, let me ask you now, do you know which of the above points are based on authentic narrations? If so, please only present those ones. 

Also, present the associated acceptable narrations. 

 

It is not up to me to do your homework for you. (And this is what you could tell those non-muslims, too.)

 

c'mon man this so intellectually weak. i don't even look at hadith within the framework of authentic or non-authentic, since i doubt all hadith any way, even the so called "authentic" ones. it's difficult to explain here in writing.

[lissenma]

Salam, I don't believe all these are authentic, maybe none of them are true I dont know. Remember that the ahlul bayt had many enemies whom wants to hurt their names.

Now the question is, which one is authentic?

One thing that worries me is the amount of divorces some of the prophets / imams had, isn't that the most hated halal act?

 I am not well studied on the prophets or imams lifes, not even close. I think it's better you ask someone who has studied their lifes extensively

Edited April 1, 2021 by lissenma

[khamosh21]

8 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

So, let me ask you now, do you know which of the above points are based on authentic narrations? If so, please only present those ones

By the way the text itself keeps repeating the phrase "narrated through authentic chains of narrators" lol

[SoRoUsH]

6 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

c'mon man this so intellectually weak. i don't even look at hadith within the framework of authentic or non-authentic, since i doubt all hadith any way, even the so called "authentic" ones. it's difficult to explain here in writing.

You're a bit confused, it seems. 

It's intellectually weak and lazy, if you don't look at narrations within the framework of authenticity. 

Any child can copy/paste a random section of any book. Scholars, on the hand, seek contexts and (hopefully) distinguish between useful and useless narrations. 

You doubt all hadiths, precisely because of your intellectually lazy and weak approach to all hadiths. 

Again, it's not up to me or others to do your homework. And if you don't do your own homework, you can't call anyone else lazy and weak.

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

You're a bit confused, it seems. 

No doubt.

[SoRoUsH]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

By the way the text itself keeps repeating the phrase "narrated through authentic chains of narrators" lol

Separate the ones that say that from the ones that don't. See how much your list decreases in size. 

[shadow_of_light]

Quote:

Ibn Babawayh etc. have narrated from reliable chains of narrators from Imam Ali Reza ((عليه السلام).) that one day the Holy Prophet (S) went to the house of Zaid bin Haritha bin Sharjeel Kalbi. When he entered, he saw that the wife of Zaid was taking a bath. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Glory be the one Who has created you.” By this statement he meant that she must consider the Almighty Allah as pure and free from the saying of infidels who say that angels are the daughters of God, as the Almighty Allah has Himself said

 

 

 

So he entered Zaid's house without knoching on the door and getting permission? And then after seeing his wife, instead of turning his head, he started admiring his beauty???!!!!!!

Dont believe this shameful story. The prophet was the most pious man throughout the history.

[khamosh21]

2 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Scholars, on the hand, seek contexts and (hopefully) distinguish between useful and useless narrations.

Scholars like Allameh Majlisi who wrote the above book?

[khamosh21]

lol, it's a shia famous scholar that wrote the above book and I'm the one being lazy lol

[SoRoUsH]

1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

Scholars like Allameh Majlisi who wrote the above book?

No. Allamah Majlisi collected any and all narrations that be could find. You can easily tell by seeing how so many of the narrations in Bihar don't have isnad. In his Bihar, he didn't separate acceptable from unacceptable narrations.

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

No. Allamah Majlisi collected any and all narrations that be could find. You can easily tell by seeing how so many of the narrations in Bihar don't have isnad.

I guess we should be thankful to him for making our life's test only harder.

[SoRoUsH]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

lol, it's a shia famous scholar that wrote the above book and I'm the one being lazy lol

Yes. You are. Because you haven't even bothered to check for a simple fact; an easily noticeable fact that numerous of the narrations in Bihar don't even have isnad.

Sorry man! It seems like you're not even trying. 

It seems like you just want to whine and justify your laziness. 

When you get serious about this, and do your homework, then post and ask for clarifications.

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

Yes. You are. Because you haven't even bothered to check for a simple fact. Sorry man! It seems like you're not even trying. 

It seems like you just want to whine and justify your laziness. 

When you get serious about this, and do your homework, then post and ask for clarifications.

I wish Allameh Majlisi had done his homework and not written such nonsense.

[khamosh21]

when there is no logical defense for our nonsensical texts, it normally comes down to this:

1. It's weak/fabricated

2. Personal judgements about the person asking questions, ignorant, doesn't understand, is lazy, is a sinner.

3. Placing the burden of proof on the other.

 

[SoRoUsH]

4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I wish Allameh Majlisi had done his homework and not written such nonsense.

Allamah Majlisi has done a great service of collecting any and all narrations that were available to him. That's an amazing accomplishment. 

His goal and objective was not to sift through what was available to him, rather he aimed to collect them all, and bring everything together, in one book. 

Again, the opposite of lazy. 

 

[SoRoUsH]

4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

when there is no logical defense for our nonsensical texts, it normally comes down to this:

1. It's weak/fabricated

2. Personal judgements about the person asking questions, ignorant, doesn't understand, is lazy, is a sinner.

3. Placing the burden of proof on the other.

 

You're crying about why people aren't doing your homework for you? 

Now, I can see and understand why you've chosen the lazy approach of rejecting all narrations. 

I am done with this thread. 

Wassalam

Edited April 1, 2021 by SoRoUsH

[khamosh21]

Just now, SoRoUsH said:

You're crying about why people aren't doing your homework for you? 

Now, I can see and understand why you've chosen the lazy approach of all narrations. 

I am done with this thread. 

Wassalam

it's amazing how judgemental people can be and assume and deduce things they know nothing about. You assume I haven't done homework, whereas you know nothing about me personally and the type Islamic studies i'm involved in. Instead of addressing the issues, they attack the person making issues. Telling someone to do their homework, why don't you just say you don't know the answers and I should go and find them for myself. Isn't that a much better way of telling someone they should do the seeking themselves vs putting them down?

 

 

[khamosh21]

18 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Quote:

Ibn Babawayh etc. have narrated from reliable chains of narrators from Imam Ali Reza ((عليه السلام).) that one day the Holy Prophet (S) went to the house of Zaid bin Haritha bin Sharjeel Kalbi. When he entered, he saw that the wife of Zaid was taking a bath. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Glory be the one Who has created you.” By this statement he meant that she must consider the Almighty Allah as pure and free from the saying of infidels who say that angels are the daughters of God, as the Almighty Allah has Himself said

So he entered Zaid's house without knoching on the door and getting permission? And then after seeing his wife, instead of turning his head, he started admiring his beauty???!!!!!!

Dont believe this shameful story. The prophet was the most pious man throughout the history.

According to Allameh Majlisi, this has been narrated from reliable chain of narrators. But it's not open for discussion as I need to go do my "homework".

 

7 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I am done with this thread. 

Thank you, wish you all the best.

[khamosh21]

15 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

His goal and objective was not to sift through what was available to him, rather he aimed to collect them all, and bring everything together, in one book.

 

I know you've left the thread, this is for other readers.  How do we know this isn't a fabrication, and excuse to help cover up for all the strange hadiths? how do we know that ilm rijal is authentic considering there is a conflict of interest and bias towards certain beliefs... how does one authenticate the method of authenticity?

[Eddie Mecca]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

How would you defend the above text if a non-muslim were to ask you about it?

You're assuming we believe every narration in our books to be sahih and beyond reproach...that's the Sunni stance and not ours...almost every hadith is debatable and subject to severe scrutiny in our school of thought.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Eddie Mecca

[khamosh21]

5 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

You're assuming we believe every narration in our books to be sahih and beyond reproach...that's the Sunni stance and not ours...almost every hadith is debatable and subject to severe scrutiny in our school of thought.

I'm a born shia, i guess was a born shia, i definitely not assuming the above, and it is a good line of defense that I would use too when i was "believer". the above is exactly the issue I take with our history and hadith, and the above text I posted is nothing but proof of that, despite the text many times authenticating itself.

Edited April 1, 2021 by khamosh21

[khamosh21]

15 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I know you've left the thread, this is for other readers.  How do we know this isn't a fabrication, and excuse to help cover up for all the strange hadiths? how do we know that ilm rijal is authentic considering there is a conflict of interest and bias towards certain beliefs... how does one authenticate the method of authenticity?

To elaborate on this, for example sunnis pretty much do and say the same, when you point out their hadith, they start saying it's weak. I remember in my teenage years I would debate with sunnis online, I thought I had found the one hadith which would convert them to shia-ism, only to be told the hadith isn't authentic or is weak. So sunnis trust their ilm rijal as much shias trust theirs... why should i trust shia historians any more than sunni historians? why should shia ilm rijal be trusted any more than sunni's.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by khamosh21

[Eddie Mecca]

10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

when i was "believer"

"And another one gone and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust" - Freddy Mercury

[khamosh21]

43 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

You're assuming we believe every narration in our books to be sahih and beyond reproach...that's the Sunni stance and not ours...almost every hadith is debatable and subject to severe scrutiny in our school of thought.

Please explain this one to me:

"...have narrated from reliable chains of narrators from Imam Ali Reza ((عليه السلام).) that one day the Holy Prophet (S) went to the house of Zaid bin Haritha bin Sharjeel Kalbi. When he entered, he saw that the wife of Zaid was taking a bath. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Glory be the one Who has created you.” By this statement he meant that she must consider the Almighty Allah as pure and free from the saying of infidels who say that angels are the daughters of God, as the Almighty Allah has Himself said"

The book says it's authentic, but that in itself appears to be a fabrication. so how do i know if what's being called authentic isn't actually fabricated? how would i know the isnad itself isn't fabricated? we are talking about over 1000 years of potential tehreef!

 

[Eddie Mecca]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

You assume I haven't done homework

You're lazy...you're like a baby pelican that wants its food regurgitated and spoon-fed to it by mama...doesn't work like that homie.

[khamosh21]

1 minute ago, Eddie Mecca said:

You're lazy...you're like a baby pelican that wants its food regurgitated and spoon-fed to it by mama...doesn't work like that homie.

personal judgments and insults and not addressing the issue... nice one bro