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In the Name of God بسم الله

The ShiaChat Marriage Crisis

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Woahh is it actually that much? That's seriously messed up. If a girl asks for that much I'll probably contemplate if she's even the right one. 

If you ask me, 100 bucks max take it or leave it :D . I kid lol. I actually have no idea what the standard is where I am or amongst people of my background - but have never heard of it being as serious of an issue.

I don't mean to be racist or anything but I feel this expensive mahr issue is more prevalent in people of a certain background - middle eastern. Based on my observations. I could be wrong though.

I live in Iraq so maybe that's the problem, but the numbers I mentioned are low, some girls can ask for $40K or more. And this does not include other requirements like a house, a car, her gold, the party and food (which could cost another $10K). If I had the amount of money I would instead prefer to invest it in something or start a small business then to buy a womb.

Quote

I don't think every girl is like that. I remember reading online once that a girl just asked for the husband to read her a book every few days as the mahr - something like this. 

Those are what we call a unicorn. In the west that would be a girl who slept with <5 guys. They are almost non-existent

Edited by pisceswolf96
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11 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

You realize that people actually do it. Some men actually take out loans to get married.

Yes, l know.

But like the old folks said, 'you can't deal with stupidity.'

Second thought: lf you have to takeout a loan to make a down payment on a house, you cannot afford to buy a house. Now, would you take out a loan, to make a down payment on getting marred, when the cost of upkeep is much higher?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

I live in Iraq so maybe that's the problem, but the numbers I mentioned are low, some girls can ask for $40K or more. And this does not include other requirements like a house, a car, her gold, the party and food (which could cost another $10K). If I had the amount of money I would instead prefer to invest it in something or start a small business then to buy a womb

That's madness, no wonder you're so cranky on here lol. On a serious note though, what about the religious girls? I can't imagine a truly religious girl making such extravagent and honestly stupid requests?

27 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

I live in Iraq so maybe that's the problem

Yeah seems like it. Move to some brown country my dude. How are these mahr standards even standards? Is Iraq not constantly in war and economic struggle, who's even paying these mahrs and establishing these crazy practices as norms in the first place? We don't hear of such gold digging in the materialistic West. 

27 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

Those are what we call a unicorn. In the west that would be a girl who slept with <5 guys. They are almost non-existent

Excuse my failure to fully catch on, but are you implying that what I bolded above is a relatively good thing and that it's a lot worse wherever you are? 

Edited by AStruggler
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3 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Yes, l know.

But like the old folks said, 'you can't deal with stupidity.'

Second thought: lf you have to takeout a loan to make a down payment on a house, you cannot afford to buy a house. Now, would you take out a loan, to make a down payment on getting marred, when the cost of upkeep is much higher?

I already made out my mind about marriage, I'm not getting married, it's not worth it. I really wish I was born in the future where artificial wombs & eggs could've been a reality but alas it wasn't meant to be.

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5 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

That's madness, no wonder you're so cranky on here lol. On a serious note though, what about the religious girls? I can't imagine a truly religious girl making such extravagent and honestly stupid requests?

I would really love if you could elaborate on what you mean by cranky :D.

5 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Yeah seems like it. Move to some brown country my dude lol. 

Brown countries like where, India? Pakistan? Do you actually hate me :cry:

5 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

How are these mahr standards even standards? Is Iraq not constantly in war and economic struggle, who's even paying these mahrs and establishing these crazy practices as norms in the first place? We don't hear of such gold digging in the materialistic West.

Add to that the fact there are more males than females and you would understand why. A woman that truly loves her husband won't put him in an economic struggle before getting married because that would also hurt her and her future kids in the process

5 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Excuse my failure to fully catch on, but are you implying that what I bolded above is a relatively good thing and that it's a lot worse wherever you are? 

I was explaining what's the difference between a unicorn in the Islamic world versus the west. In the west a man (non-muslim) marrying a girl who slept with <5 guys is someone who is quite lucky

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57 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

Wait what? 

:sign_sorry: for the delay. My computer slowed and l left the room/dungeon."

You don't want herpes, AlDS, syph, crabs, hepatitis, . . . do you?

And neither should she.

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9 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

:sign_sorry: for the delay. My computer slowed and l left the room/dungeon."

You don't want herpes, AlDS, syph, crabs, hepatitis, . . . do you?

And neither should she.

Yes but what does this has to do with anything? I'm a virgin and if I were to marry I would also marry a virgin. Why would I even care about STDs?

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9 minutes ago, pisceswolf96 said:

Yes but what does this has to do with anything? I'm a virgin and if I were to marry I would also marry a virgin. Why would I even care about STDs?

Because syph, herpes, hepatitis and a few other medical hazards can be spread by 'casual' contact. Some from surfaces in short spaces of time.

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17 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Because syph, herpes, hepatitis and a few other medical hazards can be spread by 'casual' contact. Some from surfaces in short spaces of time.

One of my biggest fears akhi. May Allah protect us all. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Woahh is it actually that much? That's seriously messed up. If a girl asks for that much I'd probably contemplate if she's even the right one. 

If you ask me, 100 bucks max take it or leave it :D . I kid lol. I actually have no idea what the standard is where I am or amongst people of my background - but have never heard of it being as serious of an issue.

I don't mean to be racist or anything but I feel this expensive mahr issue is more prevalent in people of a certain background. Based on my observations. I could be wrong though.

I don't think every girl is like that. I remember reading online once that a girl just asked for the husband to read her a book every few days as the mahr - something like this. 

It's not the people themselves, but in certain places and certain communities, there is a mythology surrounding mahr. The mythology is that this guy (the potential groom) actually has money that he is stashing away somewhere(hiding it) and it is the right of the brides family to get her some of this money, and this is her right as a bride from their 'noble' family. Some guys do this, but these are a very small percentage of the total and the most common case is that the guy just doesn't have the money. Also, they think that if their daughter gets less than the 'market rate' for the mahr, then people will view their daughter as 'less than' because she didn't get what they speculate all the other brides are getting. This leads to runaway mahr 'inflation' because it is based on speculation about what the other brides are getting in the absence of actual facts about what they are actually getting. 

This is what happens when people go after the dunya only, claim to be muslim and sometimes Shia, and ignore the religion and practices of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). The mahr of Bibi Fatima((عليه السلام)), the best women to ever walk the earth, was approx $700 when adjusted for inflation and converted into the modern currency. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Wassalam,

Cut to chase, the further we stray from the sunnah, the more difficult our lives become. It's a take it or leave it. We are the ones who profit from it, or are at loss.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

 'market rate' for the mahr

 

This part was funny but sadly true.

 

I was talking to a girl and everything was good. I really wanted to marry her. She was Hijabi, religious, etc. (at least to my understanding). At the later stages of our marriage discussions, we talked about Mahr and marriage expenses. Thank God we were not mahram yet. She asked for 20k Mahr plus main portion of marriage expenses (engagement hall and wedding hall expenses) plus asset division at the time of divorce if it happened. I tried to make marriage less expensive by like having wedding at home instead of hall etc., but it didn't work. She was active in the community and talking about Ashoura and Imam Hussain. I really wanted to marry her, but when I realized it's too much expense on me living alone in west, I gave up. If I find a girl that is okay to have a simple marriage, I save my money and spend it for the newly formed family later. I don't want to take loan and create financial problems after marriage.

Edited by Quran313
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the youth of this generation are clearly going through a crisis that it seems our forefathers were saved from. 

This maybe the case due to various reasons. It might be that due to Technological Advancement(s) and Trade School education(what we call Higher "education").

There is this notion that the New Generation is more knowledgeable, Parents are either from the "Village" or Not As "educated " or from a third world country or area etc..

What we call "Higher Education" studies after 12 grade /High School. Is in reality Trade School training in essence, for example  a Physician, Engineer, Physicist, Chemist, Pharmacist, Biologist, Mathematician, lawyer --Any Degree Holder is considered "Knowledgeable, Which is a fallacy . These are simply depending of the level's they have completed Only SME's (Subject matter Experts) experts in that particular field of Technical study.

Even Phd or Triple Phd in Math is just Technical Expert in his particular field NOT in LIFE. 

An Engineer is NOT a Biologist, or Physicist, or Chemist, or Mathematician, or a Lawyer or  Physician or Pharmacist.

No one in their right mind will go to an Engineer for a cure for a disease, or have him prescribe medicine or to obtain his opinion on Mortgage or starting a business or where to send you kids for schooling.

However, a Collage/University "Degree Holder" will look at the Parents with these people are not worth taking advice from. This Arrogance is the underlying case of many issues faced by the iphone, ipad  generation . They can't differentiate between technical knowledge for a trade or access to data with Wisdom in Social/Life matters. 

Having a good trade job and money makes things more complicated. Now not only they THINK are more knowledgeable but also more successful in terms of life. Which translates into I must be very Smart. So, they will only look for peer advice and approval - which is blind following the blind. Not their parents with a wealth of life experience, data and Wisdom in general Matters of Life. 

We are only discussing general matters of Life. Not law. If a child is a lawyer, maybe he is more knowledgeable in that particular field and can advice his parents and parents will listen as he is the SME subject matter expert. But not in others things , but the dynamics changes and the child feels he is a "know it all " and disregards the parents/elders in most things. So, technical knowledge and Money/economic success is some of the issues. 

Another thing is this notion of a book written by certain Academic with a Phd or the theories about life /social/marriage matters - We tend to think of them as role models and have disregarded "The Book" and the Teachings of Islam.

Social/Relationship  Matters/Truths unlike Technology have not Changed. But they don't see it that way, due to lack of Wisdom. 

This Overall feeling of inferiority that persists among the youths that the West/Secular way is superior as they judge it based on technical/Economic level. Open society and and devalue moral/ethics/relationship - you will be rich, if that is what desired. So, it does not mean Rich are smart/intelligent. They disregard Traditional time tested ways of going about matters in life. 

You can see that they tend to offer an image of we are more advanced and we do things differently and are more in control.  How  is a 20 or 21 year old capable of making such choice solely on their own, with out adult supervision/review. They in the secular countries don't let them drive or even drink or touch their custodial accounts till 21. But social matters no age limit to choose your gender or life style etc.. So, the ones following these people as role model should know that there is no coherency in their way. Its a silo mentality and for economic or political benefit ...

Young people should follow the time tested and proven ways in searching for a potential spouse with the guidance of their elders. Do it alone is a great fade and we see the issues people coming up with their own list/criteria  without any logical basis. or maybe based on short term interests which may not be prudent. Life matters need supervision. 

So, this condition will persists until they change their way of thinking. They make be SME - Data rich in some field but need to follow Elders who have life experience, Religious Knowledge and Wisdom. 

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4 hours ago, Quran313 said:

She asked for 20k Mahr plus main portion of marriage expenses (engagement hall and wedding hall expenses) plus asset division at the time of divorce if it happened. I tried to make marriage less expensive by like having wedding at home instead of hall etc., but it didn't work. She was active in the community and talking about Ashoura and Imam Hussain. I

Salaam,

If this is the case, then those religious trappings are mere veneer, a carefully curated gloss of religiosity to gain a standing within the community. Scratch that veneer of pious talk, and you will see the real substance of avarice and materialism beneath.

Islam is Islam. Either one submits to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his Prophet (S) kaffatan, or one doesn't. If this is the real face of these 'religious' people, then I can't take their pretences to piety seriously. People might reckon me an extremist, but I can't help but hate such people. Not only are they worldly beings through and through in reality, they don the garb of religiosity to mislead people about their true nature. I won't keep any social intercourse with such double-faced characters; I would not so much as eat or drink anything from them, have a conversation with them or pray behind them; I am afraid that their spiritual najāsah and hübb al-dunyā might get to me and pollute my heart. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be easy on me, but I can't bear the sight of these 'religious'people.

Best wishes for your quest for a life-partner, ya akhi. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) fulfill your hājāt.

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5 hours ago, Quran313 said:

I was talking to a girl and everything was good. I really wanted to marry her. She was Hijabi, religious, etc. (at least to my understanding). At the later stages of our marriage discussions, we talked about Mahr and marriage expenses. Thank God we were not mahram yet. She asked for 20k Mahr plus main portion of marriage expenses (engagement hall and wedding hall expenses) plus asset division at the time of divorce if it happened. I tried to make marriage less expensive by like having wedding at home instead of hall etc., but it didn't work. She was active in the community and talking about Ashoura and Imam Hussain. I really wanted to marry her, but when I realized it's too much expense on me living alone in west, I gave up. If I find a girl that is okay to have a simple marriage, I save my money and spend it for the newly formed family later. I don't want to take loan and create financial problems after marriage.

How do these women not understand that once you get married, your partners successes and failures are also your successes and failures. Their debt is also your debt. The husband taking out a 50k loan to marry the wife will have an effect on her as well. In a day and age where most women work and earn a living (in the West I'm not sure about eastern cultures) how can people still be so selfish. It's a shame

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:57 AM, Abu Hadi said:

less than the 'market rate' for the mahr,

Because of this thread, l re-read some al-Bukhari. ln it is the hadith to give the mahr some other guys would give her. 

Once, maybe 20 years ago, l read about these dumb guys sitting in lranian prisons because they couldn't pay-up on the mahr they promised.

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Why don’t you guys ask a girl if you reciting Quran Surah’s to her is enough as a Mahr? If she accepts or she asks for a reasonable amount of money with it, then I don’t see an issue. But if she doesn’t want Quran but instead wants a huge belt made out of gold (I’ve heard of this.. !) to show off to her friends and family, then I’d really question what type of person this is.. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Guest Change said:

How do these women not understand that once you get married, your partners successes and failures are also your successes and failures. Their debt is also your debt. The husband taking out a 50k loan to marry the wife will have an effect on her as well. In a day and age where most women work and earn a living (in the West I'm not sure about eastern cultures) how can people still be so selfish. It's a shame

Besides, what kind of a woman calls herself a Shi'ā of Alī (عليه السلام) while demanding such a huge and unreasonably high dowry? I mean, if you don't hold the mahr of az-Zahrā (عليه السلام) to be the ideal dowry, why pretend to have that fervent devotion for the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)?

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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4 hours ago, Guest Sister said:

Why don’t you guys ask a girl if you reciting Quran Surah’s to her is enough as a Mahr? If she accepts or she asks for a reasonable amount of money with it, then I don’t see an issue. But if she doesn’t want Quran but instead wants a huge belt made out of gold (I’ve heard of this.. !) to show off to her friends and family, then I’d really question what type of person this is.. 

99% of the male population shall have to remain celibate in that case.^

I recall reading somewhere that in the Prophet (S)'s time some of the sahābā who were poor would propose to their would-be wives with something as simple as a piece of cloth for the dowry, and the women  concerned would consent to the marriage because of the piety and the social standing of those sahābā among the Muslims. We have indeed come a long way from those times, and not for the better.

It is at such times that one yearns for the son of Zahra (aj) to return and salvage the ummah of his grandfather (S).

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On 4/7/2021 at 8:38 PM, hasanhh said:

Any gurl that asked for $40k l wouldn't give 40 cents for.

hahaha love it man. You're a savage.

On 4/9/2021 at 5:15 AM, Guest Sister said:

Why don’t you guys ask a girl if you reciting Quran Surah’s to her is enough as a Mahr? If she accepts or she asks for a reasonable amount of money with it, then I don’t see an issue. But if she doesn’t want Quran but instead wants a huge belt made out of gold (I’ve heard of this.. !) to show off to her friends and family, then I’d really question what type of person this is.. 

If only it was that simple. But maybe there are some like that.

I am meeting this yemeni sunni tonight. She has a good career so I don't think she will be after my money but who knows.

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:23 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Salaam,

If this is the case, then those religious trappings are mere veneer, a carefully curated gloss of religiosity to gain a standing within the community. Scratch that veneer of pious talk, and you will see the real substance of avarice and materialism beneath.

I

This is why, I am guessing, there is some movement on the issue of getting father's permission 'ihtiyat wujubat' (required out of precaution). There are some marjaa' now like Sayyid Rouhani who say it is mubah only, and some others who are changing their positions. It is precisely because there is a huge trend now to use the daughter as a tool to climb the social ladder, increase their status within the community, or just outright 'get paid' by means of holding this permission over their daughters head with not one ounce of empathy for the position of their daughter, her happiness, or the happiness of the potential groom and without any considerations for the teachings of Islam on this issue, other than this one ruling (i.e. that they have the right to decide who their daughter marries without taking her thoughts or wishes into consideration)

The purpose of the wiqalat of the father when it comes to marriage was to protect the daughter from marrying a fasiq, a non muslim, someone with extremely bad aklaq, or someone who was using the marriage to do fraud. Permission was only to be denied in very specific cases where the daughter wanted to marry one of these types of people. Outside of this, the permission of the father was something that was not his right to withhold. But it is mostly no longer used for that purpose anymore (it still is in some cases though), but rather used for the father to 'hand pick' a husband that he wants her to be with, rather than one that she wants to be with. This was not the intended purpose of the wiqalat in marriage. 

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4 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The purpose of the wiqalat of the father when it comes to marriage was to protect the daughter from marrying a fasiq, a non muslim, someone with extremely bad aklaq, or someone who was using the marriage to do fraud. Permission was only to be denied in very specific cases where the daughter wanted to marry one of these types of people. Outside of this, the permission of the father was something that was not his right to withhold. But it is mostly no longer used for that purpose anymore (it still is in some cases though), but rather used for the father to 'hand pick' a husband that he wants her to be with, rather than one that she wants to be with. This was not the intended purpose of the wiqalat in marriage. 

That is why if the father rejects a proposal for an invalid, un-Islamic, materialistic reason then his permission is no longer necessary for the marriage to be valid.

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In today's world the classification may be as follows:

1) ( "Financially " ) Dependent Women: Dependent on Parents and later on Husband/Family.

2) ("financially" ) dependent Women: These are commonly incorrectly referred to as 'Independent' Women. In reality they are Dependent on the Corporate World/Public.

Public dependence is Not ideal, Family dependence is preferred. As the word "Public" implies "Their" Public benefit. vs Family Benefit.

Both are inherently Dependent in reality and in essence. However, for the purpose of Permanent Marriage, they do classify themselves differently.

What does "Financial" Independence really have to do with the Maturity level of a Women?

During High School/12 grade or right after that a person can secure a job and make minimum wage, or higher depending on the opportunity. So, A person working in a fast food industry, or as a security guard, or any such entry level jobs'. What does this have to do with Real Maturity in matters of Life ?

Similarly, a Women with a College/University Degree and holding a corporate job have to do with Maturity in Marital matters?

Somehow we have fallen pray to this notion that Highschool Diploma or Collage/University degree in a trade - "Financial Independence" means Absolute Maturity. Which is Not True. It only means that you can land a trade job and earn some money.

If a Women has a job- She may not be that interested in Money. However, Her money is her money, and your money is her money too. Just to be clear. (Reality check.)

Vs. Women who will depend on the Husband to be a Provider for the Family. So, the demands will be different. Need to be understood in their correct context. Man need to be good providers for their Families. Lazy, lethargic, coach potato , and perpetual gamers might look for a working women to provide or supplement them financially. So, the outlook and views are different.

So, we are working with Wrong assumptions, Hence the outcome is so convoluted. And wrong Judgments are been made and we are really mostly ignorant of the facts behind a demand or lack of it. So, the one demanding is not worse compared to the one not demanding.

Nature is in play here and there are certain things which are Natural to Women. You can't deny that, only can be managed. Like we have desires, and there is a purpose for these desires however they need to be managed. So, the limits are defined. You can't eradicate Nature.

Women are more social, family oriented by Nature, they will look for "security " from futurespouse. Man need to Provide All kind of security - financial, etc..

Adding to the above, this notion of Parental Abuse. Where Only Fathers is usually mentioned, remind you that Mother plays a critical and pivotal role in decision making process in Muslim families. Only been outspoken in public as per Westerners/Secular standard is consider having a Voice/Opinion. Not True in Traditional/Family oriented structure. Women have a say but their conversation are in private NOT Loud/Sparring in Public. One of the reason of Not having a Public Disagreement is to keep/maintain the Family structure / Decision Making Hierarchy intact as an example for the children. There has to be a unit head, you can't have two gods. children will take advantage of the apparent disagreement between the parent and may play each other to their advantage. Time tested ways have been in families for a reason. Most disagreements are resolved between a man and a women in private setting away form the children. Its a cultural thing and outsiders only view based on their own system and misunderstand the situation.

So, When a Father is accepting or rejecting a proposal - Its reflecting Combined decision. Just that the Messenger is the Father. If parents see an issue, the perpetually offended an entitled children should take heed. Is there abuse i am sure there is but that is not a norm. We can't use outlier situations to change the laws or find loopholes to assimilate in secular culture.

Let me remind you all, that the Western population of Muslims is a very tiny percentage of the Total Muslim population. So, here we are discussing mostly western views which are not norms.

There is a vocal tiny minority on the internet and they do not represent a true picture. Just that its vocal and it seems a major issue in this context.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

This is why, I am guessing, there is some movement on the issue of getting father's permission 'ihtiyat wujubat' (required out of precaution). There are some marjaa' now like Sayyid Rouhani who say it is mubah only, and some others who are changing their positions. It is precisely because there is a huge trend now to use the daughter as a tool to climb the social ladder, increase their status within the community, or just outright 'get paid' by means of holding this permission over their daughters head with not one ounce of empathy for the position of their daughter, her happiness, or the happiness of the potential groom and without any considerations for the teachings of Islam on this issue, other than this one ruling (i.e. that they have the right to decide who their daughter marries without taking her thoughts or wishes into consideration)

The purpose of the wiqalat of the father when it comes to marriage was to protect the daughter from marrying a fasiq, a non muslim, someone with extremely bad aklaq, or someone who was using the marriage to do fraud. Permission was only to be denied in very specific cases where the daughter wanted to marry one of these types of people. Outside of this, the permission of the father was something that was not his right to withhold. But it is mostly no longer used for that purpose anymore (it still is in some cases though), but rather used for the father to 'hand pick' a husband that he wants her to be with, rather than one that she wants to be with. This was not the intended purpose of the wiqalat in marriage. 

 

The ugly reality of our times, brother. The general descent of the society into money mindedness means that the parents have come to treat their children as capital, which they can invest to reap profits.

As for the ruling on the necessity of obtaining the walī's permission for marriage, even those marājā who have ruled it obligatory, such as Sayyid as-Sīstānī (ha) and (to the best of my knowledge) Sayyid al-Khamenaī (ha) and Shaykh Makārim Shīrāzī (ha) have made this notable exception-

Quote

Ruling 2396. If a girl is not a virgin, or if she is a virgin but her father or paternal grandfather totally prevent her from marrying every individual who is legally (sharʿan) and commonly considered to be appropriate for her, then it is not necessary for her to obtain their consent.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2330/

But the exact modalities of how this will happen is not known to me. Perhaps the wakīl of the marjā will be involved.

Although I personally don't think that rescinding the obligation of obtaining the walī's permission will be a good idea- swindlers and con artists still abound in the marriage market, and I myself have witnessed such scams being perpetrated especially on the prospective bride's family. The ruling, in my view, hasn't outlived its purpose yet.

This, however, is a totally different case. The daughter herself is demanding an impossible and exorbitant amount as dowry.

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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On 4/7/2021 at 10:06 PM, pisceswolf96 said:

I would really love if you could elaborate on what you mean by cranky :D.

Lol my apologies but I will not :D. Just review your posts. 

On 4/7/2021 at 10:06 PM, pisceswolf96 said:

A woman that truly loves her husband won't put him in an economic struggle before getting married because that would also hurt her and her future kids in the process

Indeed.

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  I used to want to push marriage to late as possible when I was a teen, now at 22. I wish I could get married as soon as possible, but it is difficult. For me living in the west, you need money, and alot of it.

Firstly, a house. I mean, you can't stay in your parent's house can you? Or it needs to be big enough so you have enough private space. In a big city in the west, like Toronto, a decent house is +700k minimum.

Then there is wedding events, hall, multiple ceremonies, catering. I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing it's like ~60k?

A ridiculous amount of money. This system is designed to keep us as serfs

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8 hours ago, Anonymous_male said:

Firstly, a house. I mean, you can't stay in your parent's house can you? Or it needs to be big enough so you have enough private space. In a big city in the west, like Toronto, a decent house is +700k minimum.

Why not rent?

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