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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Christians Deny Allah

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Abu Nur and Joshua Bin Medellin

So from what I gather from the words you showed me from the quran. Allahs spirit was a creation. I agree that this is an Islamic teaching but is not backed up by the previous books as you both would acknowledge.

It makes sense why your prophet would say the previous books have been corrupted or changed, because that would be the only way he can validate why his teachings completely contradicts our books.

Would not it be easier to say he created a new god and new religion that does not follow our teachings? Similar to hinduism or buddhism?

Another thing that doesnt make sense is God took centuries inspiring prophets to create the torah, tanach and gospels only to be unable to protect it or stop sinful men who are stronger than him from corrupting it.

If thats not the case then it's much worse which shows Allah willingly allowed the previous books to be corrupted which means he willingly deceived both Jews and Christians. Only to bring some man later that nobody accepts but muslim to bring the truth.

Can you see how absurd that sounds to both Jews and Christians? Can you see why christians and jews dont follow Mohammad and Jews dont even acknowledge him as a person. I have never heard a jew even mention your prophets name. They dont really care.

Edited by tek91
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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The Jews will agree that God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that Muslims worship the same God. 

Really then why don't any jew read the quran or see your prophet as their own?

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Another thing im curious is how do you know if you are right with God? I mean how do you know if you are going to Heaven if not even your prophet knew his salvation?

You teach that allah balances your good works with your bad which makes no sense.

If you kill someone and go to court. Is the judge going to let you go because in the past you might have done alot of good deeds?

Would not a just God need to punish that sin not just wink and forget it because of good deeds.

Both the gospel and torah teach a sacrificial system in which God dealt with sin. Sin did not go unpunished.

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

Allahs spirit was a creation.

Brother, this is a misconception. The Spirit was a creation that belongs to Allah, but it is not to be confused with the idea that Allah is a Spirit or has a Spirit within Him. The Spirit is created as were other things that were created, all of whom belong to Allah.

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16 hours ago, tek91 said:

Abu Nur and Joshua Bin Medellin

So from what I gather from the words you showed me from the quran. Allahs spirit was a creation. I agree that this is an Islamic teaching but is not backed up by the previous books as you both would acknowledge.

Rather, it is an Christian teachings that God Is Spirit, originated from Paul. Jews and Muslims believe it is creation, read their interpretations. 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, tek91 said:

Really then why don't any jew read the quran or see your prophet as their own?

Some of them do agree that Arabs did have an prophet. Some of them may not agree, but one thing they agree is that we do worship the same God. The jews even allow their own people to go to Masjid to do their prayers but they do not allow to go to church. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)
Quote

It makes sense why your prophet would say the previous books have been corrupted or changed, because that would be the only way he can validate why his teachings completely contradicts our books.

Read the academic scholars works and you will found out that the early Christians believed in different beliefs than the Paul teachings who current Christians follow. 

Quote

Would not it be easier to say he created a new god and new religion that does not follow our teachings? Similar to hinduism or buddhism?

That would be an false conclusion, from any one who never read and understood Islam.

Quote

If thats not the case then it's much worse which shows Allah willingly allowed the previous books to be corrupted which means he willingly deceived both Jews and Christians. Only to bring some man later that nobody accepts but muslim to bring the truth.

No. Allowing something to be corrupted does not mean God is deceiving it's people. Rather there is always correct and false path and man need to found of the truth and choose according his own limit. 

Quote

Only to bring some man later that nobody accepts but muslim to bring the truth.

There were Jews and Christians who accepted Him and converted to Islam. Jews will not accept Christians and Muslims, nor Christians accept the Muslims, but at least we accept all of them because all those previous believers are called Muslims too. Ibrahim, Jacob, Isaac, Musa, Isa all of them were Muslims, because they all submitted to God will and followed the truth path.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Brother, this is a misconception. The Spirit was a creation that belongs to Allah, but it is not to be confused with the idea that Allah is a Spirit or has a Spirit within Him. The Spirit is created as were other things that were created, all of whom belong to Allah.

Doesn't matter for him, he believe this Spirit is The Essence of God! Only Paul have taught such a beliefs, and they are the earliest Christian works and the gospels came later. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)

Here the Rabbi Tovia Singer even says that Islam is closer to Judaism. Modern Christianity is very far from the teaching of Judaism and the previous prophets. Because of the Paul pagan teaching of the polytheist beliefs (sacrifice, God becomes a flesh) that he inspired from the Greeks and the false teaching that Christians do not need to follow anymore the laws of the Jews made Paul religion very strange from Abrahimic religions.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)

I will end my discussion with this topic with following statement:

Ascending and descending are properties of creation, thus any thing that have these properties are created. This is an self evident!

There is no verse that tells that God Spirit was created AND NO VERSE that says that God Spirit is NOT an creation. But reading all these verses implies that this spirit have limited attributes and does contains on place and time.

May God Protect and Guide us, Peace.

Edited by Abu Nur
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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Rather, it is an Christian teachings that God Is Spirit, originated from Paul. Jews and Muslims believe it is creation, read their interpretations. 

 

You yet do not understand.... Ok I ask for scriptures showing the Spirit is a creation in our books...All you send is Judaism interpretations...

Thats like if I am a Shia and ask to find something in the quran and you send me a hadith teaching from a sunni...

You do not understand I am not judaism and I follow messianic jewish teachings which teach that it is not created.

I showed you by scriptures because the torah and tanach shows everything that was created but like I mentioned the Ruach was never mentioned as a creation in fact it took part in the creation process....

The old testament never says on the 4th or 5th day God created Ruach...

Christians and messianic jews also believe God can send his Spirit and Word to Earth. So ascending and descending is not limiting God.

 

 

Edited by tek91
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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Some of them do agree that Arabs did have an prophet. Some of them may not agree, but one thing they agree is that we do worship the same God. The jews even allow their own people to go to Masjid to do their prayers but they do not allow to go to church. 

 If they really believed that they would follow Mohammad and his teachings..

Isnt Muhammad the last prophet and his quran his last revelation? Then they would read the quran and see Mohammad as Gods last prophet...instead they see the quran as a book similar to the way we see Joseph Smith of mormonism and his book which claim is the last revelation of Jesus.

Very simple

Edited by tek91
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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Here the Rabbi Tovia Singer even says that Islam is closer to Judaism. Modern Christianity is very far from the teaching of Judaism and the previous prophets. Because of the Paul pagan teaching of the polytheist beliefs (sacrifice, God becomes a flesh) that he inspired from the Greeks and the false teaching that Christians do not need to follow anymore the laws of the Jews made Paul religion very strange from Abrahimic religions.

Lol really Tovia Singer

You know that the messianic jew Dr Michael Brown basically embarassed him in a debate.

He even refuses to debate any messianic jew.

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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Read the academic scholars works and you will found out that the early Christians believed in different beliefs than the Paul teachings who current Christians follow. 

Really you can find outside bible sources from that time frame which show that the early followers of Yeshua saw him as God.

You can also find that around 90 ad there are outside sources which quote the book of John.

Everything that Paul wrote is backed by the words of Jesus and old testament.

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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

No. Allowing something to be corrupted does not mean God is deceiving it's people. Rather there is always correct and false path and man need to found of the truth and choose according his own limit. 

Not if its Gods book which he spent centuries to create in which is the blood of many martyred prophets who died for their teachings..Thats completely illogical teaching that God would inspire prophets for centuries to create the torah, tanach and gospel only to allow sinful men to corrupt it and then for God to discard it and start over with a new teachings that fixes everything.

That sounds absurd.... 

I guess you cant see that because your muslim and its a muslim theology.

Edited by tek91
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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

. Allowing something to be corrupted does not mean God is deceiving it's people. Rather there is always correct and false path and man need to found of the truth and choose according his own limit. 

Really so God gave us our books yet allowed sinful men to corrupt it. So all of us who follow these books that was originally Gods word at one point are deceived because we follow his books which are not the same as it was it took him to bring mohammad later to set us straight... God is testing us ? That makes no sense

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

I will end my discussion with this topic with following statement:

Ascending and descending are properties of creation, thus any thing that have these properties are created. This is an self evident!

There is no verse that tells that God Spirit was created AND NO VERSE that says that God Spirit is NOT an creation. But reading all these verses implies that this spirit have limited attributes and does contains on place and time.

May God Protect and Guide us, Peace.

Ok we can agree to disagree I guess...

Good texting with you...

Same to you... Peace

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2 hours ago, tek91 said:

Really so God gave us our books yet allowed sinful men to corrupt it. So all of us who follow these books that was originally Gods word at one point are deceived because we follow his books which are not the same as it was it took him to bring mohammad later to set us straight... God is testing us ? That makes no sense

There were different Christians with different beliefs, one of them are in truth and others in false. Do you think that the original teaching of Jesus through his disciples disappeared right away? Of course not. Paul even argued against the Jesus disciples that their teaching were wrong and that his teaching are right and approved by Jesus. Why do you think they disagree with Paul, because His new religion is strange and wrong from the original.

So two group of Christians separeted, the one who became majority are those who follows the Paul teachings.

2 hours ago, tek91 said:

Really so God gave us our books yet allowed sinful men to corrupt it. So all of us who follow these books that was originally Gods word at one point are deceived because we follow his books which are not the same as it was it took him to bring mohammad later to set us straight... God is testing us ? That makes no sense

You are making it sound that the scripture were thousands of years corrupted when it is not the case. Do you really think that for example the current Torah we have was written by Moses at his time? Some books were written many hundreds years later from their revelation. In these times for some beliefs it was corrupted but then later prophets corrected them. It is common thing for the scholars to inteprate wrong intepration and write things that are not God words and call them it is from God. 

As for prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) timing, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said:

In this way ages passed by and times rolled on, fathers passed away while sons took their places till Allah deputised Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) as His Prophet, in fulfilment of His promise and in completion of His Prophethood. His pledge had been taken from the Prophets, his traits of character were well reputed and his birth was honourable. The people of the earth at this time were divided in different parties, their aims were separate and ways were diverse. They either likened Allah with His creation or twisted His Names or turned to else than Him. Through Muhammad (S) Allah guided them out of wrong and with his efforts took them out of ignorance.

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2 hours ago, tek91 said:

You yet do not understand.... Ok I ask for scriptures showing the Spirit is a creation in our books...All you send is Judaism interpretations...

Because when I quote Bible, I only quote the old testament.

Of course If I want to understand something that was revealed to Jews I need to seek the understanding of those verses from Jews perspective and not Christians, because they have nothing to do with Christians in first place.

If I want to ask a Christians about the nature of Holy Spirit, I would ask him to quote the new testament. But I know the Christians perspective and I disagree with it and so do Jews and Jewish scriptures.

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

There were different Christians with different beliefs, one of them are in truth and others in false. Do you think that the original teaching of Jesus through his disciples disappeared right away? Of course not. Paul even argued against the Jesus disciples that their teaching were wrong and that his teaching are right and approved by Jesus. Why do you think they disagree with Paul, because His new religion is strange and wrong from the original

The disagreement was not about Jesus divinity or his atonement but about whether to teach the message to the gentile people. Later Peter saw a vision from God that showed him that Paul was right and to teach the good news message to the gentiles.

Jesus also disagreed with many of his disciples over time and had to teach them straight as his disciples needed understanding. Does that mean Jesus and his disciples were against each other?.. The bible is a historical document as well as inspired so it will show historical facts that occured at that time. 

The disciples of Jesus mostly agreed with the revelations of Paul and accepted him... Especially about Jesus divinity and atonement...

 Show me all these many things you believe that the disciples and Paul differed on.. They were basically in compliance and acceptance of Paul and his Revelations of Jesus..

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

two group of Christians separeted, the one who became majority are those who follows the Paul teachings.

Where is proof of this? The disciples accepted Paul and his teachings. They even preached with him...  I told you Peter was set straight concerning teaching to the gentiles...

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

u are making it sound that the scripture were thousands of years corrupted when it is not the case. Do you really think that for example the current Torah we have was written by Moses at his time? Some books were written many hundreds years later from their revelation. In these times for some beliefs it was corrupted but then later prophets corrected them. It is common thing for the scholars to inteprate wrong intepration and write things that are not God words and call them it is from God. 

Yet you have no evidence of this except muslim theology.. No previous text showing what was said before the corruption took place and afterwards...

And no I dont mean to bring me scripture from a website which show so called contradictions which are misunderstanding which are answered online as well..You could also find sites with thousands of contradictions in the quran... They are childish so please dont bring that because I know thats what you will probably bring...

And this coming from a religion thats original documents were burned by Caliph Uthman...

No Christian or Jew will agree the original hebrew or greek text were corrupted...

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4.136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

 

So from what I understand he allowed the previous books to be corrupted by sinful men to test people but yet he tells people to believe in the former books....or tells christians and jews to judge by what we have....

So if he is testing us by allowing contradictions in his own books why would he tell us to trust or believe in them?

And what kind of test is it to spend centuries inspiring his holy words by the blood of men who died only to basically allow men to corrupt it and basically tell us its wrong and garbage... Why would God test us like that especially when he went through centuries creating the torah, tanach and gospels and had prophets die to spread the message in those books...

What kind of test is it.. Im asking because I dont understand. What would corrupting the previous books be a test off? What would God gain from that? 

It just sounds so silly....

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Because when I quote Bible, I only quote the old testament.

Of course If I want to understand something that was revealed to Jews I need to seek the understanding of those verses from Jews perspective and not Christians, because they have nothing to do with Christians in first place.

If I want to ask a Christians about the nature of Holy Spirit, I would ask him to quote the new testament. But I know the Christians perspective and I disagree with it and so do Jews and Jewish scriptures.

If you believe that jews are always right in all they believe why dont you accept the teaching of Jewish Messianic believers of Jesus?

Edited by tek91
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I dont mean to offend anyone here I respect muslims as believers even though our beliefs contradict....

The thing that gets me annoyed is when you say God allowed the torah, tanach and gospels to be corrupted.. This is a slap in the face to all the prophets who were martyred and gave their lives to spread the word of God throughout thousands of years and centuries...

To say God decided at any time to allow men to dishonour it as a test is an insult.

Edited by tek91
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4 minutes ago, tek91 said:

The thing that gets me annoyed is when you say God allowed the torah, tanach and gospels to be corrupted

Jerimiah 8:8 says, "How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" According to Jeremiah 8:8-9, the scribes seem to be accused of falsifying information in the Tanakh with their "false" or "lying pen". Where are these falsified statements in the Bible if Jerimiah 8;8 is in fact true and accurate (i.e. divinely inspired or revealed)?

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44 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Jerimiah 8:8 says, "How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" According to Jeremiah 8:8-9, the scribes seem to be accused of falsifying information in the Tanakh with their "false" or "lying pen". Where are these falsified statements in the Bible if Jerimiah 8;8 is in fact true and accurate (i.e. divinely inspired or revealed)?

Hello Eddie Mecca 

You have to read that verse in context.

The first clue is that God through Jeremiah states in verse 7 my people do not KNOW the requirements of the Lord not that they do not HAVE them. Then in verse 8 he takes up the false security of the people who claimed that they have the law as if having it as a posession will benefit them if they do not obey it and if they distort it with their false interpretations.

Look at verse10,11 and 12 what are those scribes doing ? You can see clearly they are telling people, "everything is ok the law is being kept and there will be peace" but they are lying. It says they are writing things that are false as though they came from Gods law and teaching it to the people it does not mention anything written on the tanach.

A scribe was not in that time a copyist. They were telling people peace although the true prophets were saying there was no peace and that God would bring judgement for idolatery and disobedience.

...this verse has absolutely nothing to do with altering the torah or tanach it has to do with teaching false practices and giving false prophecies and saying its based on Gods laws.

Edited by tek91
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 I dont mean to insult you im sure theres an explanation I am just showing you this to show how easy it is to throw scriptures out of context.

As we sent down (punishment) on the separatists who dismember the Qur'an." S. 15:90-91 Palmer

"(Of just such wrath) as We sent down on those who divided (Scripture into arbitrary parts), (So also on such) as have made Qur'an into shreds (as they please)." A. Yusuf Ali

"So We sent it down on the partitioners, who have broken the Koran into fragments." A.J. Arberry

"Like as We sent down on the dividers Those who made the Quran into shreds." Shakir

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8 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

 

Did you read what I wrote?

scribes in Israel are the interpreters of the torah/tanach. Their duties included TEACHING and INTERPRETATION....
The scribes were not writers or authors of scripture.

To say they wrote lies in the Tanach would be false.....

I can send you many links and videos concerning it if you would like...

please be respectful and read Jeremiah 8 in context no jew or christian would agree with you.

Edited by tek91
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in general Christianity
if he says something in a verse from the book, they interpret it according to themselves and according to what the priest said in the church (it is best to say that they say only the good ones) they omit the bad ones

if it is said of the Christian allah, they immediately swear that it is Satan and other similar nonsense and will not accept other interpretations besides his own (not even from the book)

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Posted (edited)

tek91,

The concept of Oneness (Unity) is central and sacred in Islam, but it is also sacred in the Torah(and Tanak), and in the words of Jesus(a) in the Gospels, which can be found basically in Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29. The concept of Trinity and that Jesus is God as introduced by various Christian Councils and decrees over the nature of the divinity in Jesus violates the concept of Oneness in Islam, tawhid. There are various exegesis that explains this better than I can, although I have mentioned Ayatollah Subhani in my previous post regarding Imam Ali(a)'s response to the Jewish rabbis and how he upheld the concept of tawhid, which imo is excellent, although he only cites it to demonstrate Imam Ali(a)'s authority and leadership (Resplendence of Wilayah).

The concept of tawhid is so vital, God intervenes when mankind goes astray apart from his Oneness as a guide and as a mercy and that is why the Qur'an states that Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a mercy given to the world. It is meant to guide humanity back to the Unity of God; Allah's Oneness.  This is Love from our Creator, whom is our salvation to whom we turn torwards (Surah al-Fatihah) and Allah guides whom He wills. 

 

 

 

Edited by Joshua Bin Medellin
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