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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Christians Deny Allah

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:33 AM, dragonxx said:

I have been curious for the longest time how the Christians who actually read their bible come to the conclusion God = Jesus. Now I know. It's literal blindness.
Jesus is saying God sent me, the Christians say oh so you are God. No, God sent me, I have no power save what God permits me. Oh so you are God. No... 

Imagine I flew over to Russia and said "Biden sent me" and they replied "Oh, nice to meet you Biden". I reply, "I did not come from my own accord, I am not Biden, Biden sent me", and they reply "great, Mr. Biden, when are you going to order your troops to withdraw?"  ...........

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word."

Your argument is very interesting.  Thank you for bringing this point up.  I have never heard a Christian say the things you report them to say.  Christians are very happy to say that God sent Jesus the Messiah.  They are very willing to say that while Jesus the Messiah was on earth he acted through the power of God the Holy Spirit at work in him.  None of these things deny the charater and essence of who Jesus is.

The diety of Jesus is not based on a few "proof texts" but on the whole story of the Old Testament.  The teaching of Moses, David and the other prophets.  There is a thread running throughout these teachings of God coming to deliver his people.  That God himself would engage with sinful rebelious people and rescue them.  There are words which describe God as a Shepherd coming to hold the poor and needy in his arms and walk with them through their troubles.  God says he himself will come to Jerusalem and bring forgiveness and redemption.  These promises and many many more are reflected and fulfilled in the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was.  After he was resurrected and taken up to heaven his followers and freinds reflected on what they had experienced and dispite their strict Jewdeistic monothesism could come to no other conclusion than to say that "Jesus is Lord" and that "At his name every knee will bow".

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On 6/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I have never heard a Christian say the things you report them to say.  Christians are very happy to say that God sent Jesus the Messiah.

What? Ever-dearest Dave, I literally quoted the post by your fellow Christian saying what "I reported them to say"... not only that but...

On 6/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was.

How can you say these two quotes above in the same breath with a straight face? You must be trolling me.

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On 6/8/2021 at 8:41 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

but on the whole story of the Old Testament.  The teaching of Moses, David and the other prophets.  There is a thread running throughout these teachings of God coming to deliver his people. 

 

The OT doesn’t teach that at all.  You deliberately take allegories and hermeneutics out of context. 
 

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, not a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?”

Exodus 20:2-4 

“I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

Exodus 8:10 “There is no one like the Lord our God”

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.”

2 Chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built!”

2 Chronicles 2:6 “But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him. Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”
 

2 Kings 19:15 “You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” 

2 Samuel 7:22 “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, Nor there is any god beside You

Isaiah 43:10 Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me”

Jeremiah 10:6-7 There is none like You, O Lord; You are great, and Your name is great with might.

Who will not fear You, O King of the nations, for it befits You, for among all the wise men of the nations and among all their kingdom there is none like You.

Deuteronomy 4:12 The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no form, just a voice.“

Isaiah 44:6-8 “So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no god. 

And who will call [that he is] like Me and will tell it and arrange it for Me, since My placing the ancient people, and the signs and those that will come, let them tell for themselves.

Fear not and be not dismayed; did I not let you hear it from then, and I told [it] and you are My witnesses; is there a god beside Me? And there is no rock I did not know.”

 

All the prophets taught the absolute oneness of God (Unitarianism) and God is unique there is nothing like Him. Once God has come into His creation He becomes very limited and no longer unique 

 

when God says He will deliver His people that is not to be taken literally because the verses that I have mentioned give us the interpretation of these verses. When God says that,  He will do so by using an intermediary (I.e His messengers and prophets). commonsense. You are DELIBERATELY overlooking these verses.  
 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:41 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was. 


Jesus denied being many times. 
 

Your church fathers and priest twist passages taking them out of context and even deliberately misinterpret some passages aswell. 
 

Here’s an example. 
 

John 10:28-39

The problem with your church fathers they twist passages adding conjectural passages on parts that have been altered. Here’s the passage that we will be addressing. 

John 10:34-39

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Torah, ‘I have said you are “elohim” ’? 35If He called them ‘elohim,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

the highlighted passages are the main passages that will be addressed although their are other evident corrupted passages. Here’s what the literal translation says as is. 
 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not having been written in your law: I said, you are gods? 35If He called them gods to whom the word of God came (and the Writing is not allowed to be broken), 36of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, do you say—you slander, because I said, I am Son of God? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and may believe that the Father in me, and i in Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

we can clearly see there is a big difference between the literal translation and the non literal translation and also any other non literal translation. 

literal translation verse 36: of Him whom the Father sanctified

non literal translation verse 36: what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and

 

we can clearly see the nonliteral translation is very political theologically and not to mention an evident corruption since some words are missing but these words can be recovered by looking at the context, that is one part of this text science; let’s first start with the context then go on to the next part. 
 

In the literal translation, In verse 34 Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6 ,because the Jews accused him of claiming to be God because he said “I and the Father are one”,  to make point that what he said was an expression just like “I said, ‘you are elohim’” for if saying “I and the Father are one” is blasphemous then so is “I said,’ you are elohim’”. 
 

now if we read Psalms 82:6 these once-upon-a-time godly messengers  who had the word of God, broke(i.e altered) the scripture and judged unjustly by it which resulted in them being taken down like princess getting taken down and dying harshly like the son of adam. Jesus uses this argument in his favour proving his prophethood and messenger-ship in verse 35 saying, 

“If He called them ‘elohim’ to whom the word of God came (and the scripture is not allowed to be broken)“

Now here is the part where we use the content and context prior to verse 36 to see what where the missing words now I have already dissected the content and context of the verses prior to verse 36; which gives us a strong indication on what was Jesus argument against the Jews in verse 36. 
 

Which is, verse 36, “then what do you say about the word of Him whom God has sanctified and sent into the word?”

now here’s the second part of this text science, now we translate that to the original language of Jesus, once this part is translated into Aramaic the meaning and context slightly Changes and gives us what was the original saying of Christ or gives us much stronger indications and hints in what he said which will leads us to what he actually said.  Now this the translation of verse 36 from Aramaic to English.

”then what do you’s say about the word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to world?” 

now let’s put the puzzle together and see what is it conveying. 
 

34Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in the Torah that is with you’s : “I said, you are elohim?” 35If He called them “elohim” to whom the word of Allah came to; and the Scripture is not allowed to be broken, 36then what do you’s say about word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to the world? Do you’s now say “you’re a blasphemer”, because I profess that I am the messenger of Allaha? 37If I do not do the works of Allaha, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe in the works, that perhaps you may know that Allaha is with me, and I am with Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

now let’s apply the same textual science on the whole context. 
 

27as I said to you before; My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me,28and I give salvation to them, and they will not perish—never, and no one will snatch them out of my hand; 29my Lord, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the hand of my Lord; 30I and Allaha are one.”

31Therefore, again, the Jews took up stones that they may stone him; 32Jesus replied to them, “I showed you’s many marvellous works from my Lord; because of which deed from them do you stone me?”33The Jews answered him, saying, “We do not stone you for a marvellous deed, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a human, make yourself to be a  god.” 34Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in the Torah that is with you’s: ‘I said, you are “elohim”’?35If He called them elohim to whom the word of Allaha came to, and the Scripture is not allowed to be broken, 36then what do you’s say about the word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to the world? Do you’s now say “you’re a blasphemer”, because I profess that I am the messenger of Allaha? 37If I do not do the works of Allaha, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe in the works, that perhaps you may know that Allaha is with me, and I am with Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

We can clearly see Jesus denying being God and proving his prophethood to the Jews and claiming to be messenger of God. 
 

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

The OT doesn’t teach that at all.

Thank you for your well researched and detailed comments.

Just one place where God talks about himeslf coming and getting involved with his people who have been led astray and who are far from him.  It is from Ezekiel 34

11 ‘“For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and make them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus the Messiahn when he talks of being the Good Sheperd is clearly referencing these verse and others like them in many of the Old Testament prophets.

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On 6/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Ibn Maymun said:

When you say the above, you see Jesus's reference to being the Good Shepherd as a claim to be God.  After all, God reveals to Ezekiel in the passage above that He is the Good Shepherd.  If Jesus makes the same claim, then clearly he's claiming to be God.  Is that a fair understanding of your words?  It's tight logic and I see where you're coming from.  

Thank you for your very clear and well thought out response.  I appreciate your explanation and see in your perspective many things I agree with.

I agree that the term 'Shepherd' is used extensively in the Old Testament as a euphemism of the king or other community leaders maybe even priests and prophets and so when God uses it for himself he is claiming his rightful place as the king and leader of his people.  This would make me think that when Jesus the Messiah uses the title for himself he is not just claiming he is a nice kind person but that he is presenting himself as a kingly leader.

This is also strongly supported by the phrase you introduce about the descendant of David and the fact that in both the genealogies given in the New Testament (one of Joseph and one of Mary) Jesus is shown to be a descendant of David and was called Son of David in many places.  Jesus the Messiah's link with David in this way is another pointer to his position as the one who is king of God's eternal house.  See the prophesy given to Isaiah in Chapter 9

For to us a child is born,

 

    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
    and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
    with justice and righteousness
    from that time on and for ever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
    will accomplish this.

Jeremiah 23

‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord,
    ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
    and do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Judah will be saved
    and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
    The Lord Our Righteous Saviour.

My reading of these prophesies puts this Shepherd from David's line as more than

On 6/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Ibn Maymun said:

an appointed figure who acts on God's behalf to carry out His will.  

But as God himself our Righteous Saviour

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On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

All the prophets taught the absolute oneness of God (Unitarianism) and God is unique there is nothing like Him. Once God has come into His creation He becomes very limited and no longer unique 

Thank you for your hard work in explaining this.

I love the verses you quote and rejoice that God is unique and there is none like him.  This means that he is able to show his uniqueness through incarnation.  Being unique does not rule out coming to enage with his creation.  In fact, it allows for it.  Only a unique God could do this unique thing in the unique way that God acts through Jesus the Messiah.

On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

when God says He will deliver His people that is not to be taken literally because the verses that I have mentioned give us the interpretation of these verses. When God says that,  He will do so by using an intermediary (I.e His messengers and prophets). 

Here you are denying the obvious reading of the passages and forcing an Islamic interpretation that limits God's ability to enage personally with his creation.  I much prefer to read these verses at face value and see the One and oonly Unique God interecting in a surprisingly unique way with his creation.

I am so excited that God himself in all his power sand glory came to rescue us and walk with us in our suffering and troubles rather than sending a weak prophet as an intermedary to pass on his message.

On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

We can clearly see Jesus denying being God and proving his prophethood to the Jews and claiming to be messenger of God. 

Your explanation of the teaching of Jesus found in John goes against the clear understanding of the book as a whole.  Yes Jesus the Messiah was a messenger from God but he was much more than that.  John wrote the book with an aim. (Chapter 20:30-31)

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So we can expect to see the things he records explain and support his premiss.  The seven "I Am" statements:  “I am the bread of life”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the door”, “I am the good shepherd”, “I am the resurrection and the life”, “I am the way and the truth and the life” and “I am the true vine”.  The Seven signs, the teaching and focus on Jesus's death and resurrection all show John's desire to bring out Jesus' self disclosure and to draw the readers thoughts and mind back to the Old Testament claims of Almighty God the rescuer and deliverer of his people.

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

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9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

The only problem with this idea, is the idea that God has "need" for a condition to be fulfilled in order to be able to forgive. That condition being the blood sacrifice of Jesus. God doesn't "need" anything, He is complete unto himself and if he is going to forgive someone, then all he has to do is forgive them. He doesn't "need" a sacrifice in order to forgive sin, he just forgives it because he is "oft forgiving and the most merciful". If someone believes that God "couldn't forgive without a blood sacrifice", they are mistaken about how God operates and they are placing a limit on Him. Forgiveness is one of His characteristics, it's one of His names (al-Ghaffar-- He Who is Ready to Pardon and Forgive).

That's the thing that never made any sense to me about Christianity or Judaism, the idea that God "needed" some sort of a condition to be fulfilled by humans in order to do something.

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34 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

That's the thing that never made any sense to me about Christianity or Judaism, the idea that God "needed" some sort of a condition to be fulfilled by humans in order to do something.

It's not that God needed anything to forgive people.  It is that people need to see something to know and realize the full extent of their rejection of God and the asurance of forgivness.

The idea of blood sacrifice emphasises the seriousness of our shameful acts.  They have a consiquence - death.  Both our death and also, to be an example and symbol to us, the death of the sacrifice.

Also seeing the animal die and recognising what has happened gives a visual representation of the forgivness God has brought about.  So for me.  When I look to the historical event of the death and resurection of Jesus the Messiah, I can have assurance that God has acted in history to restore my relationship with him.  I can sense too the emensity of my sin and shame in that it needed the death of Jesus the Messiah to deal with it.

Sin is no light thing that just needs a few words said over it.  It is serious and has eternal consiquenses.

I rejoice that God has dealt with my sinful, dirty, shameful acts and life.  Once and for all I have been completly forgiven and am now accepted into God's family as his child.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

 

We deny the interpretation of Christians about God, not that we deny God. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 6/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

It's not that God needed anything to forgive people.  It is that people need to see something to know and realize the full extent of their rejection of God and the asurance of forgivness.

The notion as it has been explained to me in the past at every evangelical christian church I've ever attended and "gotten saved" at (which I've "gotten saved" scores of times), is that God "wants to forgive you, but has to have someone take the punishment of sin, so he sent the perfect man (who was also him) to take that punishment in your place and the shedding of his blood is necessary in order for God to forgive you". It makes absolutely no sense to explain it that way, because there's no way that God could need something. Forgiveness is strictly God's purview, so he can extend it to whoever he pleases, however he pleases with no conditions needing to be fulfilled.

The thought I used to have about the crucifixion, was that if Jesus was God, that he chose to allow himself to be killed so he could show mankind that he "understood what they go through at their worst" but the more I thought about it, this didn't make sense either because it borders on gnosticism and all of that "divine mystery" stuff that the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach, which never made sense to me either because why would God make the decision to reveal things mysteriously when he could just do it clearly and concisely to people so that they would understand, knowing that by doing it through mysterious means that there were bound to be people who wouldn't believe him?

 

 

On 6/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I can sense too the emensity of my sin and shame in that it needed the death of Jesus the Messiah to deal with it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though: this supposes that God "needs" a conditioned to be fulfilled before He is capable of forgiving people's sins and that doesn't make any sense if God really is omniscient, omnipotent, and the source and beginning of existence itself. What happened to all of the people who died before Jesus? They just went to hell until Jesus died and then God suddenly decided "Ok now I can forgive these people's sins" and were taken out of the fire whose fuel is men and stones?

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On 6/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The seven "I Am" statements:  “I am the bread of life”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the door”, “I am the good shepherd”, “I am the resurrection and the life”, “I am the way and the truth and the life” and “I am the true vine”.  

This reminds me of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) quote

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) said, “I am the one who became elevated and did overcome. I am the one who gives life and death. I am the first one and the last one. I am the apparent one and the hidden one."

Now, the unknowledgeable one will think immediately that someone as magnanimous as Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is claiming to be God, astaqfirallah. Just like how the christians claim Jesus = God. 

Strange when the Christian says God sent so-and-so and Behold! So-and-so died and became Lord. Why not say God sent Himself, God died, and God became God? Well, there is an obvious problem there... easier to give different names to different entities as that's more digestible to people. Except monotheism is out the window, but it's ok, 3=1.

Anyway, the explanation for the above, which one can draw a similar parallel to some of the quotes Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام)) might've said,

"As for my saying that, 'I am the one who became elevated and did overcome'. Then it means that I became elevated (above you) with this sword and overcame you until you believed in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P).
As for my saying that, 'I am the one who gives life and death'. Then it means that I give life to the tradition (Sunnah) and give death of Bid'ah.
As for my saying that, 'I am the first one'. Then it means that I am the first one to believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to submit to Him.
As for my saying that, 'I am the last one'. Then it means that I am the last one in terms of giving shroud to the Prophet and burying Him.
As for my saying that, 'I am the apparent one and the hidden one'. Then it means that with me is the apparent and hidden knowledge."

 

 

 

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On 6/24/2021 at 2:45 AM, dragonxx said:

Strange when the Christian says God sent so-and-so and Behold! So-and-so died and became Lord. Why not say God sent Himself, God died, and God became God? Well, there is an obvious problem there... easier to give different names to different entities as that's more digestible to people. Except monotheism is out the window, but it's ok, 3=1.

I'm sure you realise that what you have written does not describe how Christian people express their experience of God's work in history and in their own life.

I'm not going to unpick your gross simplification of a complex eternal act.  If you are really interested in an answer can I suggest you look at this link.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-sacrifice-Himself.html

On 6/24/2021 at 2:45 AM, dragonxx said:

This reminds me of Imam Ali

The interesting thing about your quote from Ali is that according to the hadith the people who heard it said it was blasphamy and Ali had to explain it by reducing the claims to mere events in his life of his actions and teaching.

On the other hand, Jesus the Messiah said these things in a context where people knew God's name as I AM.  Jesus the Messiah left these self identifications as said without reducing them.  His explinations of them went even further.  For example he was the bread that if people ate they would never go hungry.  His life giving power was the same as the Father's  They also reflect God's self disclosure in the previous prophets.  These seven statements are on a completly different level to the words of any other person.

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On 7/2/2021 at 9:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sure you realise that what you have written does not describe how Christian people express their experience of God's work in history and in their own life.

I'm not going to unpick your gross simplification of a complex eternal act.  If you are really interested in an answer can I suggest you look at this link.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-sacrifice-Himself.html

Sir Dave, I am not being dishonest, nor am I attempting to oversimplify nor ridicule. You are using the exact language I was referring to, for example

On 7/2/2021 at 9:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

His life giving power was the same as the Father's 

Jesus life giving power was the same as God. This is precisely what my "gross oversimplification" refers to, as you are repeatedly attesting to (inadvertently). Another example...

On 6/22/2021 at 4:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

When I look to the historical event of the death and resurection of Jesus the Messiah, I can have assurance that God has acted in history to restore my relationship with him.

You convenient switch to saying God in the same sentence you say death and resurrection of Jesus. Why, if they are one and the same? If Jesus is God, why must you switch from saying Jesus to God in your above statement? Well, because you and the rest of the masses would raise your eyebrow if someone said "the death and resurrection of God". I mean if God is dead, who is going to resurrect him? Jesus?

On 6/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Only a unique God could do this unique thing in the unique way that God acts through Jesus the Messiah.

Yet another example, so don't speak foolishness and claim no Christian is experiences God in such a way when you are displaying it for the world to see; they will all be witnesses on the Day of Judgement so tread carefully. Further, you say "unique" God multiple times, example

On 6/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I much prefer to read these verses at face value and see the One and oonly Unique God interecting in a surprisingly unique way with his creation.

how can God be unique if Jesus is God as well, or rises up as God as you put it?

How can you say things such as this

On 6/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I am so excited that God himself in all his power sand glory came to rescue us and walk with us in our

Yet in the SAME breath say "God caused Jesus to die and resurrected Jesus"? Or is it God caused Jesus to die and resurrected God? I am not going to let you get away with gross impossibilities. A square has 4 sides, not 3, no matter what "unique" expression you envision, or brain washed to envision.

On 7/2/2021 at 9:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

These seven statements are on a completly different level to the words of any other person. 

Regardless of the level of his statements, Jesus ((عليه السلام)) never did anything or claimed anything without saying " with the permission of God". And perhaps you are like those who accused Imam Ali of blasphemy, taking things Jesus ((عليه السلام)) did out of context without understanding. 

All praise is to the One Lord who bestows what He wills to His creatures, including Jesus ((عليه السلام)), Mary ((عليه السلام)), Adam ((عليه السلام)), Rasoolallah (pbuhf).

Stop equating Jesus to God, or if you continue to do so just call them both God and stop using your convenient names for two separate entities who happen to also be one and the same. Complex, right?

 

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@dragonxxThanks so much for asking these really complex and honest questions.  I can understand your confusion and I appologize for not being clearer.  The problem is that we are talking about God who is way beyond our finite minds and understanding.  I wonder if you think God is easy to understand and simple to explain?  I feel that a God who created the universe with his powerful word and placed humanity within his creation is far beyond what I can explain with my words or understand with my mind.  If I can understand God he becomes less than an almighty infinite eternal being.  Is this somthing you agree with?

I also want to emphasise that as a follower of Jesus the Messiah I believe and worship ONE God.  There is no doubt in my mind that there can not be more than one God.  The Scripture (and dare I say it logic) make it clear that there was a creator of everything which means God is above all and greater than all.  Whatever else the Genesis accounts of creation teach it is clear that this is their emphasis.

So how am I going to understand Jesus the Messiah, the Holy Spirit and the person who Jesus addresses as Father?  My first position is to emphasise the ONEness of God.  I am never talking about three separate gods.  The Jews of the times of the previous prophets were very clear on this, Jesus the Messiah, brought up in this context, emphasised it and the apostles who wrote the Injil proclaimed it.

When we read the Old Testament there is also a declaration that God is not only one but also unique.  This means there is no one or nothing like him.  We also have revelation from this unique God saying that he will come and personally rescue people from darkness, evil and death.  There are also ambiguous passages in the Old Testament acounts where it seems that God is personally and physically present and engaging with someone.  The creation account also declares that God made people in his image and likeness.  This is hard to understand but indicates that when we look at humanity - men and women and communities in relationship - we see a reflection of God.

When Jesus the Messiah comes John the Baptist (Yahya) declares that this is the Lord.  That Jesus is the fulfilment of the promises that God was coming to rescue his people.  In the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah we see a person doing and saying things that the Old Testament say are things that God does.  Things like stilling the storm, walking on water, forgiving sins, and using the name I AM.  His resurrection from the dead adds a stamp of affirmation to what the people were thinking Jesus the Messiah is someone special, someone unique, could this person be God?

Very soon after Jesus left earth and ascended into heaven the followers of Jesus experience something which they understand to be a filling with God himself.  The Holy Spirit has come and is living in each of them.  They also start to include Jesus in their worship - writing hymns which acknowledge him as Lord and worthy of the worship that has been given to God alone (see Philippians chapter 2:5-11)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=philip+2%3A5-11&version=NIVUK

They do not stop believing in ONE God but see that one God in a new light and start to understand the implications and allusions of the Old Testament teaching and prophesies.  This ONE God who is unique and different from anything else had shown his father heart of love and had come to live among his creation and was now living within those who follow and serve him.

This is where your questions come in.  When I talk about God it is a word which encapsulates a wide and inclusive understanding of both the ONEness of God but also his expression and revelation as the loving Father, the Messiah who came to earth and the Spirit who lives in those who believe.  There is an interaction within the ONEness of God involving planning, sending, conversing and acting in seemingly separate ways.  Yet, the ONEness is not broken and there is complete unity and agreement.

I can not explain in words how the ONE God can be understood as three persons.  The mechanics of how God does this is beyond human understanding.  It is like an ant trying to understand an elephant or a 2 Dimensional being trying to understand three dimensions.  What I can say is that I live it and experience it each day.  I praise and worship and pray to the ONE God.  I know the love of Father God embracing me and accepting me.  I experience the power of God the Holy Spirit in my life helping me to understand his ways and giving me strength to overcome temptations.  I walk each moment with Jesus the Messiah beside me as my friend and companion.

And it is not just experience.  This view of God gives clarity and understanding to many passages in the Old Testament and in the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah.  Things start to drop into place and the Jigsaw becomes whole.

If you have managed to read this far - Thank you!  If you have other questions and want clarification, I will see what I can do.  But my prayer is that you will encounter God and that he will reveal himself to you and help you understand his being and his wonderful plan for your life.

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15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Thanks so much for asking these really complex and honest questions.  I can understand your confusion and I appologize for not being clearer.  The problem is that we are talking about God who is way beyond our finite minds and understanding.  I wonder if you think God is easy to understand and simple to explain?  I feel that a God who created the universe with his powerful word and placed humanity within his creation is far beyond what I can explain with my words or understand with my mind.  If I can understand God he becomes less than an almighty infinite eternal being.  Is this somthing you agree with?

Absolutely agree, as you very well know kind Sir.

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I also want to emphasise that as a follower of Jesus the Messiah I believe and worship ONE God.  There is no doubt in my mind that there can not be more than one God.  The Scripture (and dare I say it logic) make it clear that there was a creator of everything which means God is above all and greater than all.  Whatever else the Genesis accounts of creation teach it is clear that this is their emphasis.

Indeed, to follow the way of Jesus is to follow the way of God, for Jesus is a messenger of God and who other than the great messenger knows how to worship God?

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

When Jesus the Messiah comes John the Baptist (Yahya) declares that this is the Lord.  That Jesus is the fulfilment of the promises that God was coming to rescue his people.  In the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah we see a person doing and saying things that the Old Testament say are things that God does.  Things like stilling the storm, walking on water, forgiving sins, and using the name I AM.  His resurrection from the dead adds a stamp of affirmation to what the people were thinking Jesus the Messiah is someone special, someone unique, could this person be God?

Indeed, similar to other Prophets of God, Jesus was bestowed the ability to forge many miracles including raising the dead, by the permission of God (here I am not using God and Jesus interchangeably like you).

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

"he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death –
        even death on a cross!" The Lord does not obey death, death obeys the Lord.

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."

 

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I can not explain in words how the ONE God can be understood as three persons.  The mechanics of how God does this is beyond human understanding.  It is like an ant trying to understand an elephant or a 2 Dimensional being trying to understand three dimensions.  What I can say is that I live it and experience it each day.  I praise and worship and pray to the ONE God.  I know the love of Father God embracing me and accepting me.  I experience the power of God the Holy Spirit in my life helping me to understand his ways and giving me strength to overcome temptations.  I walk each moment with Jesus the Messiah beside me as my friend and companion.

Neither can I explain the nature of God, on this we agree clearly. However I am unwilling to accept a God limited in space, time, function, reach, a God who is subject to the very same lowly functions of that which he created, for All is the subject of God, and God is never the subject of Any; how can the Creator be a subject of His Creation?

Evidently, we have reached an impasse. 

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If you have managed to read this far - Thank you!  If you have other questions and want clarification, I will see what I can do.  But my prayer is that you will encounter God and that he will reveal himself to you and help you understand his being and his wonderful plan for your life.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I regret we can never see eye to eye but I am happy to have learned your perspective for it has further strengthened my heart in the miracles of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) and his call to his God and my God.

لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِيَ دِينِ

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On 7/7/2021 at 2:21 AM, dragonxx said:

how can the Creator be a subject of His Creation?

The Almighty God can chose to become part of / subject to his creation.  He is able to do this because he made the material world.  If God is a sigularity or a monad then this becomes imposible but if there is a dynamic relationship with in the ONEness of God then God is able to maintain his otherness and at the same time enter his creation.

The passage in Philippians 2 That I mentioned has two phrases using the same word 'nature'

being in very nature God,

and

taking the very nature of a servant

Just as Jesus was by nature God he chose to become by nature a human servant.

On 7/7/2021 at 2:21 AM, dragonxx said:

I regret we can never see eye to eye but I am happy to have learned your perspective

Thank you for your generosity - I recognise your posision and respect you for it.  Thanks for your comments and clear and helpful explinations.

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