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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Christians Deny Allah

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On 9/24/2021 at 7:22 PM, tek91 said:

Many Jewish people don't know that God is Father,

How is believing that God is a father not polytheism? If god has fathered (or mothered, can anybody tell what gender God is?) just one child, that child (be it son or daughter) would also be a god (or goddess). Then there would be two gods and more that one god equals polytheism.

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21 hours ago, tek91 said:

I quoted Old Testament you can ask any Jewish person they would tell you that verse about the Holy Spirit is in their Tanach.

I'm talking about this part "God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit". No Jew will interpret as how Paul and later Christians interpret these words.

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The Holy Spirit a creation? Can you point where that is in scriptures? If you read the account of creation and everything God created in the book of Genesis the Holy Spirit was never mentioned as something created, instead it is part of creation as in Genesis 1:2 says God's Spirit was hovering over the waters.

 

Genesis 1:2 "a wind from God sweeping over the water"

Wind from God, Not God sweeping over the water.

God does not have literal spirit, rather when God say My Spirit, It can mean that He honors the Human soul (I have blown My Spirit into him) or that He give an assistance trough this spirit (Ruh al Quds).

Edited by Abu Nur
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6 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

How is believing that God is a father not polytheism? If god has fathered (or mothered, can anybody tell what gender God is?) just one child, that child (be it son or daughter) would also be a god (or goddess). Then there would be two gods and more that one god equals polytheism.

You remind me of an atheist I once met and handed a pocket bible. He asked me about heaven and was saying Heaven must be boring because there is no tv. Basically he was using his Earthly mind to determine how God is. 

What I mean is when the bible says God begot a Son it does not mean God had sex. That's Earthly thinking. Gods Holy Spirit came into the belly and produced seed. Basically the Word of God emptied himself and came down from heaven to be born and save sinful humanity.

According to Yeshua God is a Spirit that's why we have to worship him in Spirit and Truth.

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I'm talking about this part "God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit". No Jew will interpret as how Paul and later Christians interpret these words.

Genesis 1:2 "a wind from God sweeping over the water"

Wind from God, Not God sweeping over the water.

God does not have literal spirit, rather when God say My Spirit, It can mean that He honors the Human soul (I have blown My Spirit into him) or that He give an assistance trough this spirit (Ruh al Quds).

God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit is taught by Jesus himself the Torah in Genesis says Ruach (spirit) 

If you read the hebrew it says and the ruah which is translated as Spirit elohim was hovering over the face of the water.

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I'm talking about this part "God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit". No Jew will interpret as how Paul and later Christians interpret these words.

Genesis 1:2 "a wind from God sweeping over the water"

Wind from God, Not God sweeping over the water.

God does not have literal spirit, rather when God say My Spirit, It can mean that He honors the Human soul (I have blown My Spirit into him) or that He give an assistance trough this spirit (Ruh al Quds).

If you read the Torah the Ruach is participates in creation, gives life to humanity and other creatures ps 104:29-30, strives with sinners gen 6:3. It came into certain judges, warriors, and prophets in which it gave them power. Num 27:18, judges 3:10, 6:34, it departed from Saul because of disobedience.

David also declared that God's Spirit spoke to him. 2 Sam 23:2 and same with Ezekiel in Ezek 2:2

The Spirit inspires holiness in believers according to Psalms 143:10. Also in Ezekiel it is promised that the God will one day put his Spirit in his people that would cause them to live according to his statutes.

These are just a few examples of the Spirits powers.

 

Edited by tek91
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On 9/27/2021 at 7:30 PM, tek91 said:

God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit is taught by Jesus himself the Torah in Genesis says Ruach (spirit) 

If you read the hebrew it says and the ruah which is translated as Spirit elohim was hovering over the face of the water.

From the Jewish commentary of Ibn Izra:

AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Ru’ach (wind) is in the construct with Elohim (God) because it was the medium employed by God to dry the land.70I.E. renders ru’ach (spirit) as wind. Thus ve-ru’ach Elohim (and the spirit of God) means: and God’s wind.

Chizkuni:

“and the spirit of G-d, etc.” This expression too tries to describe for us something that exists outside the “universe” is abstract, similar to the expression תהום, in the first half of this verse. This “רוח” is also perceived as קדש, holy, [something apart, in this instance, not tangible, Ed.] and is described in the Talmud Chagigah 12 as one of the 10 phenomena that G-d created on the first “day.”

§ The Gemara continues to discuss Creation: Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: Ten things were created on the first day of Creation, and they are as follows: Heaven and earth; tohu and vohu, i.e., unformed and void; light and darkness; wind and water; the length of day and the length of night.

All of these are derived from the Torah: Heaven and earth, as it is written: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Tohu and vohu, as it is written: “And the earth was unformed and void [tohu vavohu]” (Genesis 1:2). Light and darkness; darkness, as it is written: “And darkness was upon the face of the deep” (Genesis 1:2); light, as it is written: “And God said: Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3). Wind and water, as it is written: “And the wind of God hovered over the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). The length of day and the length of night, as it is written: “And there was evening, and there was morning, one day” (Genesis 1:5).

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

From the Jewish commentary of Ibn Izra:

AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Ru’ach (wind) is in the construct with Elohim (God) because it was the medium employed by God to dry the land.70I.E. renders ru’ach (spirit) as wind. Thus ve-ru’ach Elohim (and the spirit of God) means: and God’s wind.

Chizkuni:

“and the spirit of G-d, etc.” This expression too tries to describe for us something that exists outside the “universe” is abstract, similar to the expression תהום, in the first half of this verse. This “רוח” is also perceived as קדש, holy, [something apart, in this instance, not tangible, Ed.] and is described in the Talmud Chagigah 12 as one of the 10 phenomena that G-d created on the first “day.”

§ The Gemara continues to discuss Creation: Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: Ten things were created on the first day of Creation, and they are as follows: Heaven and earth; tohu and vohu, i.e., unformed and void; light and darkness; wind and water; the length of day and the length of night.

All of these are derived from the Torah: Heaven and earth, as it is written: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Tohu and vohu, as it is written: “And the earth was unformed and void [tohu vavohu]” (Genesis 1:2). Light and darkness; darkness, as it is written: “And darkness was upon the face of the deep” (Genesis 1:2); light, as it is written: “And God said: Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3). Wind and water, as it is written: “And the wind of God hovered over the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). The length of day and the length of night, as it is written: “And there was evening, and there was morning, one day” (Genesis 1:5).

Hello Abu Nur thanks for responding. The Hebrew Ruach has a definition of Spirit, Breath, Wind. 

Let me quote you from a Jew as well at fellowship of Israel Related Ministries

https://firmisrael.org/learn/the-hebrew-word-ruach-and-gods-breath-in-our-lungs/

The Hebrew Word Ruach and God’s Breath in our Lungs

What is the Meaning of Hebrew word Ruach?

Ruach (pronounced roo-akh) is the Hebrew word for spirit, breath, or wind. When spoken, the word engages one’s breath and lungs. The first mention of Ruach in the Bible is in the very first chapter of Genesis – Genesis 1:2 to be exact:

And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit (Ruach) of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

The Bible translates the word Ruach into all of the aforementioned English words. Which means that when we read our Bible, we may not always realize that in Hebrew these verses had something very important in common.

Ruach is described as a wind (for example, in Numbers 11:31 and Exodus 10:13), but also as spirit (in Judges 6:34, 1 Samuel 16:14 and 1 Kings 18:12). And then, in Job it is translated as breath (12:10).

 

What is the Meaning of Hebrew word Ruach?

Ruach (pronounced roo-akh) is the Hebrew word for spirit, breath, or wind. When spoken, the word engages one’s breath and lungs. The first mention of Ruach in the Bible is in the very first chapter of Genesis – Genesis 1:2 to be exact:

And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit (Ruach) of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

The Bible translates the word Ruach into all of the aforementioned English words. Which means that when we read our Bible, we may not always realize that in Hebrew these verses had something very important in common.

Ruach is described as a wind (for example, in Numbers 11:31 and Exodus 10:13), but also as spirit (in Judges 6:34, 1 Samuel 16:14 and 1 Kings 18:12). And then, in Job it is translated as breath (12:10).

 

 

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Abu Nur could I also get a response from my previous post.

In scriptures the same Hebrew word Ruach gives life to humanity and creatures, strives with sinners, came into judges prophets and warriors and gave them power, departed from Saul for disobedience, spoke with both Ezekiel and King David, inspires holiness in believers and many other things.

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22 hours ago, tek91 said:

Abu Nur could I also get a response from my previous post.

In scriptures the same Hebrew word Ruach gives life to humanity and creatures, strives with sinners, came into judges prophets and warriors and gave them power, departed from Saul for disobedience, spoke with both Ezekiel and King David, inspires holiness in believers and many other things.

Ruh Alohim, has different meaings.

Christians work there socks off to manipulate these three different meanings and try to make them seem as  they are one and the same, which they aren’t. Go read Ezekiel 33 in Hebrew without reading in a later developed doctrine and you will see in Hebrew that “ruh” has three different meanings. One means “breath” the other is a reference to an entity which is the the holy spirit and other is a reference to the spirit that humans poses. All the references that are about the holy spirit  betray the Holy Spirit to be a seperate entity distinct from God and that it is God’s aid sent to prophets and messengers to support them. 

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4 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Ruh Alohim, has different meaings.

Christians work there socks off to manipulate these three different meanings and try to make them seem as  they are one and the same, which they aren’t. Go read Ezekiel 33 in Hebrew without reading in a later developed doctrine and you will see in Hebrew that “ruh” has three different meanings. One means “breath” the other is a reference to an entity which is the the holy spirit and other is a reference to the spirit that humans poses. All the references that are about the holy spirit  betray the Holy Spirit to be a seperate entity distinct from God and that it is God’s aid sent to prophets and messengers to support them. 

 

 

 

Hello guest

My friend I would love your answer on the scriptures I showed were God's Ruach completes different functions.

 If God's Ruach is just a meaningless wind like you said it cannot do functions or talk. 

Also in Isaiah 63 why did God became their enemy when the people rebel and vexed his Ruach?it's just a wind right, why would God care?

The Holy Spirit of God is a wind, invisible breath of God it all fits God's Spirit and does all the functions that it did in the ot like talk, edify, come into us.

Read John 14 when Yeshua speaks of giving the comforter the Spirit of truth. He says it invisible that the World cannot see and dwells with them.

That was fulfilled when Yeshua breathed it on them on the day of pentecost.

Everything matches....

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On 9/27/2021 at 6:17 PM, tek91 said:

You remind me of an atheist I once met and handed a pocket bible. He asked me about heaven and was saying Heaven must be boring because there is no tv. Basically he was using his Earthly mind to determine how God is. 

What I mean is when the bible says God begot a Son it does not mean God had sex. That's Earthly thinking. Gods Holy Spirit came into the belly and produced seed. Basically the Word of God emptied himself and came down from heaven to be born and save sinful humanity.

According to Yeshua God is a Spirit that's why we have to worship him in Spirit and Truth.

I am well aware that religious texts will sometimes be bast understood when we take them allegorically, but you still claim that God has fathered children through a woman.  Whether he had sex or it was artificial insemination is really beside the point. You still claim a physical family relationship.
If I am not mistaken there is a hadith (I don't remember the reference) where The prophet Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is accused of worshiping a "Muslim trinity" - the three gods called Allah, Al Rahman and Al Raheem. This is an amusing hadith because all Muslims know that this is not thee gods, but the name of God; Allah and two qualities of God; Al Rahman and Al Raheem - The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful.
When we look at the Hindu trinity; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva it should be easy to see from an Islamic point of view that this is similar to the above mentioned hadith of the "Muslim trinity" because all three names are qualities of God. Brahma is the Creator that correspond to Allahs name al-Khaliq in Arabic, Vishnu is the Sustainer - Ar-Razzaaq in Arabic and Shiva is the Vanquisher - al-Qahhar in Arabic. Even if you talk to some Hindus they will say that God is one and that the Hindu trinity are avatars of the one God. Some Hindus will fight over whether Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva are the real God and who of the two others are the Avatars. The main division in Hinduism is over this question.
The Christian trinity on the other hand messes it up even further. Not only do you separate Gods name from the two qualities of God; his word and his spirit, You also throw a human being into the equation claiming that "God came down from heaven to be born as a human being." Let be that you limit God by suggesting that he "came" from one place to an other.  The claim that God took a human form is similar to the Hindu God Ram, who might have been a real person and a prophet like Jesus, but which the Hindus claim is God incarnated. Ram most certainly lived long before Jesus, so it is not the Hindus who copied Christianity here. Whether Christianity copied Hinduism directly I don't know but the idea was clearly there before Christianity. So how is it that the Christians would gladly designate Hinduism as polytheism or even "pagan" while having so much of a beam in their own eye that they can't see that Christianity is the same thing?

 

Edited by Revert1963
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33 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

I am well aware that religious texts will sometimes be bast understood when we take them allegorically, but you still claim that God has fathered children through a woman.  Whether he had sex or it was artificial insemination is really beside the point. You still claim a physical family relationship.
If I am not mistaken there is a hadith (I don't remember the reference) where The prophet Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is accused of worshiping a "Muslim trinity" - the three gods called Allah, Al Rahman and Al Raheem. This is an amusing hadith because all Muslims know that this is not thee gods, but the name of God; Allah and two qualities of God; Al Rahman and Al Raheem - The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful.
When we look at the Hindu trinity; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva it should be easy to see from an Islamic point of view that this is similar to the above mentioned hadith of the "Muslim trinity" because all three names are qualities of God. Brahma is the Creator that correspond to Allahs name al-Khaliq in Arabic, Vishnu is the Sustainer - Ar-Razzaaq in Arabic and Shiva is the Vanquisher - al-Qahhar in Arabic. Even if you talk to some Hindus they will say that God is one and that the Hindu trinity are avatars of the one God. Some Hindus will fight over whether Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva are the real God and who of the two others are the Avatars. The main division in Hinduism is over this question.
The Christian trinity on the other hand messes it up even further. Not only do you separate Gods name from the two qualities of God; his word and his spirit, You also throw a human being into the equation claiming that "God came down from heaven to be born as a human being." Let be that you limit God by suggesting that he "came" from one place to an other.  The claim that God took a human form is similar to the Hindu God Ram, who might have been a real person and a prophet like Jesus, but which the Hindus claim is God incarnated. Ram most certainly lived long before Jesus, so it is not the Hindus who copied Christianity here. Whether Christianity copied Hinduism directly I don't know but the idea was clearly there before Christianity. So how is it that the Christians would gladly designate Hinduism as polytheism or even "pagan" while having so much of a beam in their own eye that they can't see that Christianity is the same thing?

 

Hello Revert1963

Yeshua did not start to exist when he was born.

Yeshua PRE-EXISTED as Gods word.

So to say God started a family does not make sence when our gospels clearly teach that God's Word(Logos) chose to come down from heaven and be born. Jesus was not created he is eternal. Only thing that was created and later died was the body he was manifested into.

You can't create something that is eternal thats why Jesus was able to say he came down from heaven on many occasions and to say he saw Satan come down to Earth like lightning or to say he existed before Abraham or to ask to glorify him with the glory he shared with the Father before the World was.

Jesus literally said he existed before the World was.

Everything in Yeshua is backed up by the teachings in the Tanach and the Torah.

About the Hindu God there is no truth to that claim. In Hinduism there is a trimurti which is a relationship with 3 Hindu deities according to J.P Arendzen the trimurti developed after Christianity and has nothing in common. It does not belong to ancient Indian or Aryan religion.

Its very lengthy but I can show you what is taught in the Hindu Trimurti and how it is completely different.

Edited by tek91
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49 minutes ago, tek91 said:

Hello guest

My friend I would love your answer on the scriptures I showed were God's Ruach completes different functions.

 If God's Ruach is just a meaningless wind like you said it cannot do functions or talk. 

Also in Isaiah 63 why did God became their enemy when the people rebel and vexed his Ruach?it's just a wind right, why would God care?

The Holy Spirit of God is a wind, invisible breath of God it all fits God's Spirit and does all the functions that it did in the ot like talk, edify, come into us.

Read John 14 when Yeshua speaks of giving the comforter the Spirit of truth. He says it invisible that the World cannot see and dwells with them.

That was fulfilled when Yeshua breathed it on them on the day of pentecost.

Everything matches....

The whole point is that this spirit is not GOD. No Jews before Jesus (عليه السلام) ever understood the Spirit some kind of part of His Essence.

God created the spirit to help the believers, it is not somehow part of God. God's Ruach (Ruh) is one of the ten creations according the Jews interpretation of the torah.

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12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The whole point is that this spirit is not GOD. No Jews before Jesus (عليه السلام) ever understood the Spirit some kind of part of His Essence.

God created the spirit to help the believers, it is not somehow part of God. God's Ruach (Ruh) is one of the ten creations according the Jews interpretation of the torah.

I don't listen to Jews interpretation, Jewish believers have many divers teaching and are always arguing among each other.

Where in scriptures does it ever mention the Ruach being created? Can you please find that for me.

Genesis mentions all creations yet has no mention of Ruach being one of the creations. It mentions that ruach hovered over the water not that it was created.

 

Edited by tek91
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16 hours ago, tek91 said:

So to say God started a family does not make sence when our gospels clearly teach that God's Word(Logos) chose to come down from heaven and be born. Jesus was not created he is eternal. Only thing that was created and later died was the body he was manifested into.

You can't create something that is eternal thats why Jesus was able to say he came down from heaven on many occasions and to say he saw Satan come down to Earth like lightning or to say he existed before Abraham or to ask to glorify him with the glory he shared with the Father before the World was.

Jesus literally said he existed before the World was.

Everything in Yeshua is backed up by the teachings in the Tanach and the Torah.

 

Quote

A beautiful and eye-opening clip that will expand our spiritual awareness regarding where we have come from and where we are heading. We’ve all heard of the Afterlife, but what about the “Pre-life”? Shaykh Mansour Leghaei explains the concept of human existence before our creation and the philosophical implications of this Quranic idea.

https://www.al-islam.org/media/did-we-exist-life

Quote

This covenant is also called the covenant of Alast (lit. “Am I Not?”) and the world in which this covenant was made is called the world of Dharr.[7]

Allama Tabataba'i maintains that this verse is the most sophisticated Quranic verse in terms of structure and content—even though there are ambiguities,[8] such as how and where this covenant was made, that have led to disagreement among the commentators.[9]

There is no obvious allusion in the Covenant Verse that human beings were required to confess to the principles of prophethood or imamate, but some scholars hold that it can be concluded based on the exegetical hadiths related to this verse that confessing to the two principles was also part of the covenant.[10]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Qur'an_7:172

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5 hours ago, tek91 said:

I don't listen to Jews interpretation, Jewish believers have many divers teaching and are always arguing among each other.

The problem with this statement is that now there is literally impossible to take any truth from the Jews who have thousands of years receiving prophets and guidance of the meaning of their own books. Rather, what you need to do is that to investigate on the common things the Jews accept with each other. About the Ruh, it is commonly accepted between themselves that it has different meaning in different context, but no where they accept that this Ruh is part of His Essence.

For example they accept commonly that in this sense the Ruh means manifestation of an aspect of His power, it is an subordinate of God wills:

“Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: ‘Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?’” (Isaiah 63:11)

Quote

Where in scriptures does it ever mention the Ruach being created? Can you please find that for me.

Because it can be included among the creations that has not explicitly mentioned of its creation. When It comes to the creation of Heavens, it can include different creations that dwell in Heavens. Angels, Spirits etc.

 

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18 hours ago, tek91 said:

The Holy Spirit of God is a wind, invisible breath of God it all fits God's Spirit and does all the functions that it did in the ot like talk, edify, come into us.

Was the Prophet of Islam (S) a prophet at birth?

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 It has been reported that the Prophet (S) said:
«کُنْتُ نَبِیّاً وَ آدَمُ بَیْنَ الْمَاءِ وَ الطِّین‏»
"I was a prophet while Adam was between water and clay."[2]
That is to say the Prophet (S) was a prophet when Adam had not yet been created. This hadith has also been narrated in Sunni sources with little variation:
«کُنْتُ نَبِیًّا وَ آدَمُ بَیْنَ الرُّوحِ وَ الْجَسَدِ»
"I was a prophet when Adam was between the soul and body."[3]

 

Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) talked to his mother from the time of his birth consoling her and giving her solace.[4] He then talked to people and introduced himself as God”s servant and prophet.[5]

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"I was a prophet when Adam was between the soul and body."[3]
In any case, having the status of prophethood from early childhood is not surprising about the greatest prophet of human history. That is because some of the earlier prophets also enjoyed the like of such a feature. For example, Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) talked to his mother from the time of his birth consoling her and giving her solace.[4] He then talked to people and introduced himself as God”s servant and prophet.[5]

 

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It has been said that God, the Almighty, perfected Jesus” intellect in his childhood and appointed him prophet and sent him to people at the same time. It was due, mainly, to his perfect intellect that he became duty-bound (mukallaf) at the time of his childhood.[6]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6471

Was Prophet Adam the eighth person to live on earth?

Quote

According to Islamic teachings firstly: there is no doubt that Prophet Adam was the first person of the current generation of human beings and that this generation are all born from him. Secondly, before Prophet Adam there were humans that lived and were called Insans or "nasnases", but we do not have much information about them.

 

Quote

 

Quote

Allame Tabatabai says: "It is said in the history of the Jews that the human being has not lived any more than about 7 thousand years on earth, but geologists argue that humans have lived for more than millions of years. The fossils of things made by humans and skeletons of humans that are said to belong to 500 thousand years ago are presented as evidence for such a claim. "

 

Quote

For example there is a hadith narrated in "Tafsir Ayyashi" that reads: “Hesham ibn Salem says that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "If the angels hadn't seen the humans that shedded blood then why did they say " أَ تَجْعَلُ فِیها مَنْ یُفْسِدُ فِیها وَ یَسْفِکُ الدِّماءَ " [5] ". [6] (They have had to seen humans before to claim that humans shed blood, if not why would they ask Allah why he was creating such creatures?).

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6471

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The problem with this statement is that now there is literally impossible to take any truth from the Jews who have thousands of years receiving prophets and guidance of the meaning of their own books. Rather, what you need to do is that to investigate on the common things the Jews accept with each other. About the Ruh, it is commonly accepted between themselves that it has different meaning in different context, but no where they accept that this Ruh is part of His Essence.

For example they accept commonly that in this sense the Ruh means manifestation of an aspect of His power, it is an subordinate of God wills:

“Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: ‘Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?’” (Isaiah 63:11)

Because it can be included among the creations that has not explicitly mentioned of its creation. When It comes to the creation of Heavens, it can include different creations that dwell in Heavens. Angels, Spirits etc.

 

In other words you can't provide  scriptural text that says Ruach is a creation of God.

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God does not take places, He does not descend or ascend because He does not have location:

Ecclesiastes 12:7: "the spirit shall return unto God".

The Spirit descend and ascend, thus it's is different from God. Anything that returns to God is an creation.

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

God does not take places, He does not descend or ascend because He does not have location:

Ecclesiastes 12:7: "the spirit shall return unto God".

The Spirit descend and ascend, thus it's is different from God. Anything that returns to God is an creation.

Are you joking now? Of course, God's Ruach ascends and descends. Ruach is Spirit, breath. It is invisible and is given and dwells within believers like Yeshua promised.

God always send his Spirit and it comes back, he send it to many prophets and Judges. David begged God not to take his Ruach haKodesh from him...

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49 minutes ago, tek91 said:

Are you joking now? Of course, God's Ruach ascends and descends. Ruach is Spirit, breath. It is invisible and is given and dwells within believers like Yeshua promised.

God always send his Spirit and it comes back, he send it to many prophets and Judges. David begged God not to take his Ruach haKodesh from him...

Does God Ascends and Descends?

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55 minutes ago, tek91 said:

Are you joking now? Of course, God's Ruach ascends and descends. Ruach is Spirit, breath. It is invisible and is given and dwells within believers like Yeshua promised.

God always send his Spirit and it comes back, he send it to many prophets and Judges. David begged God not to take his Ruach haKodesh from him...

I'm not joking, you can not relate something to be part of God that have attributes of ascending and descending. This is the problem, you think that God spirit have always existed and is part of God and it moves with locations. You have not even addressed that how it can be part of His essence when it has such an attributes of ascending and descending.

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On 6/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The diety of Jesus is not based on a few "proof texts" but on the whole story of the Old Testament. 

Hello Brother,

I believe there is a large misunderstanding in how Christians view the Hebrew Bible and label it as Old Testament and how Jews view their own Bible without all the filters of post-Masoretic translations/scripture changes/renderings via the Septuagint (Greek Empire) and the Latin Vulgate (Roman Empire) of the deep Christian past.  Compare for instance any modern Christian Bible with that of the Tanakh and its direct English translation from the Hebrew - and arrive at  the Hebrew Bible as to how a Jewish person would actually view it. They would not pick up a Christian Bible to view and understand their own scriptures. The Christian researcher has to go beyond the barrier of Septuagint and Latin Vulgate that was put in place so many centuries ago. Facing and confronting this barrier of a colonized and usurped religion of Judah during times of upheaval and subjugation of Oppressor Nations/Empires is highly problematic for the Christian, but it must be done and can be done. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

I'm not joking, you can not relate something to be part of God that have attributes of ascending and descending. This is the problem, you think that God spirit have always existed and is part of God and it moves with locations. You have not even addressed that how it can be part of His essence when it has such an attributes of ascending and descending.

I don't understand what you are saying.

Are you saying God cannot have attributes? We don't believe God has parts. The Ruach is God's Spirit.

God created us in his image. Just like you have a body, spirit and soul. Does that mean you have three parts and I'm talking to three Abu Nur? No body, soul and spirit are you. 

God has a Spirit and he is more than capable of being in Heaven and sending his Holy Spirit to Earth to do his will.

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12 minutes ago, Joshua Bin Medellin said:

I believe there is a large misunderstanding in how Christians view the Hebrew Bible and label it as Old Testament and how Jews view their own Bible without all the filters of post-Masoretic translations/scripture changes/renderings via the Septuagint (Greek Empire) and the Latin Vulgate (Roman Empire) of the deep Christian past. 

Hi Joshua  Thanks for reaching out on this one.  I'm not sure this is the place to discuss this as it is a bit 'off topic' but I'm happy to make a comment.

I agree the term Old Testament doesn't do the Hebrew scriptures justice.  I use it because it is the word people are familiar with.

Just a comment about the Septuagint.  This has no Christian inffluence as it was translated from Hebrew into Greek by Jewish scholars 200 years before Jesus the Messiah walked on the earth.

Although our modern translations refer to the Latin Vulgate the major source of the transaltion is as you say the Masoretic text.  Which again was a Jewish work.  That text has been confirmed to be acurate in most places by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls which again were from a Jewish group and have been dated from 200 BCE to 60 CE.

Remember Jesus the Messiah was a Jew and his Holy Book was the Hebrew scriptures and he used them to talk about who he was and what he came to do.  See Holy Injil Luke 24

25 He (Jesus) said to them, ‘How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?’ 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, tek91 said:

I don't understand what you are saying.

Are you saying God cannot have attributes? We don't believe God has parts. The Ruach is God's Spirit.

God created us in his image. Just like you have a body, spirit and soul. Does that mean you have three parts and I'm talking to three Abu Nur? No body, soul and spirit are you. 

God has a Spirit and he is more than capable of being in Heaven and sending his Holy Spirit to Earth to do his will.

I’m saying that Holy Spirit is not His attribute because His attributes can not limited to space and time or any similarities of attributes of His creations or limited them to limitation.

His Holy Spirit is aspect of His power, it is an subordinate of God wills:

Subordinate entity is not God Himself or part of God. It is an creation that serves God and Manifest whatever God wants to manifest to His servants.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I’m saying that Holy Spirit is not His attribute because His attributes can not limited to space and time or any similarities of attributes of His creations or limited them to limitation.

His Holy Spirit is aspect of His power, it is an subordinate of God wills:

Subordinate entity is not God Himself or part of God. It is an creation that serves God and Manifest whatever God wants to manifest to His servants.

 

 

Where do you get the idea that we believe God's Ruach HaKodesh occupies a lower rank or is inferior to God to be subordinate to him?

According to scripture God's Spirit is the very essence of God. Just like your spirit is the essence of you.

God is greater then us and has the power to send his Spirit down to Earth.

The Ruach is the presence of God with us and in us. The Father could not come down to Earth because we can not see God and live, he has sent us physical and spiritual manifestations in his Spirit to comfort us, teach us how to live, edify us and equip us with miracles. 

This was the promise of God in Isaiah 44 where the Lord said "I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thy offspring."

Edited by tek91
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Posted (edited)
On 10/1/2021 at 5:21 PM, tek91 said:

Where do you get the idea that we believe God's Ruach HaKodesh occupies a lower rank or is inferior to God to be subordinate to him?

 

Because A spirit that dwells amoung the people or place is self evident an creation that have location, or properties of descending and ascending. David asking God not to remove the Spirit is self evident of creation that manifest God will for particular capacity, location and time.

And also I checked the same concept from Judaism. It is very odd that the only person that believe it is God Himself is no other than Paul. No previous prophets have ever said it is God Essence.

On 10/1/2021 at 5:21 PM, tek91 said:

According to scripture God's Spirit is the very essence of God. Just like your spirit is the essence of you.

Show me in the old testament that the Spirit is very of His essence. 

On 10/1/2021 at 5:21 PM, tek91 said:

God is greater then us and has the power to send his Spirit down to Earth.

It is not matter of capability, it is matter that there is no such a thing as His Essence goes down or up. 

On 10/1/2021 at 5:21 PM, tek91 said:

The Ruach is the presence of God with us and in us. The Father could not come down to Earth because we can not see God and live, he has sent us physical and spiritual manifestations in his Spirit to comfort us, teach us how to live, edify us and equip us with miracles.

The presence is itself an creation. And God is not located in Heaven because He is not in place, thus all these attributes of Up and Down are limiting God to space and time.

All physical and spiritual manifestation of God are not His Essence but are all creation to become an manifest of His will and they all have their own essences and limitations.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Because A spirit that dwells amoung the people or place is self evident an creation that have location, or properties of descending and ascending. David asking God not to remove the Spirit is self evident of creation that manifest God will for particular capacity, location and time.

And also I checked the same concept from Judaism. It is very odd that the only person that believe it is God Himself is no other than Paul. No previous prophets have ever said it is God Essence.

Where do you get that from? Where is it written that God's Spirit ascending and descending means its a creation? I ask you to please back this up through scriptures.

Dont create your own logic for God to dwell in. 

I showed you that Gods Spirit is eternal as you yourself have shown because you could not find in scripture of God creating his holy spirit.

Gods Spirit is shown to participate in the creation event in the book of Genesis.

God's Spirit gives life. If you look at Genesis 2:7 it said "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living thing"

The word used for breath was you guessed it Ruach.

17 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The presence is itself an creation. And God is not located in Heaven because He is not in place, thus all these attributes of Up and Down are limiting God to space and time.

All physical and spiritual manifestation of God are not His Essence but are all creation to become an manifest of His will and they all have their own essences and limitations.

Old Testament 

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

New Testament 

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Are you sure Allah is the same God from Torah, Tanach and Gospels? 

Im not trying to be mean but you need to ask yourself that .

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3 hours ago, tek91 said:

Where do you get that from? Where is it written that God's Spirit ascending and descending means its a creation? I ask you to please back this up through scriptures.

Before Creation, what is there to ascent and descent? Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best. Just as Ruach is Hebrew for Spirit in Hebrew Bible the Ruh is the same in Arabic in the Qur'an. However there several dimensions to the word and how it is used - which I myself am curious to know more about (and hopefully will learn more about through further classes on the Qur'an). Through a tafsir class I attended, it was made evident that the Ruh was a creature of Allah and acts on behalf of Allah when Allah commands such as in Surah 3.59. The following ayats elaborates how Allah employs the Ruh in the support of Jesus(a) for his mission on earth:

Ayat 2.253:

Quote

 Those messengers – some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.(2.253)

Ayat 4.171:

Quote

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4.171)

Ayat 5.110:

Quote

 [The Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, “This is not but obvious magic.(5.110)

 

3 hours ago, tek91 said:

Old Testament 

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

New Testament 

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Are you sure Allah is the same God from Torah, Tanach and Gospels? 

Considering, from the our Islamic point of view, that the Qur'an corrects all the other Scriptures that were changed and corrupted, I find the following from "Resplondence of Wilayah" by Ayatollah Ja'far Subhani to be quite interesting when renowned Rabbi's in the time of Abu Bakr asked the Caliphate on where God is. Here is the text:

 

Quote

...a group of Jewish rabbis put forward a number of questions including the following [for Abu Bakr]: 'In the Torah, we read that the Messenger's successors are the most learned among his ummah. Now you (Abu Bakr) are the successor of your prophet, so tell us: where is God - on earth or in the heavens?" Abu Bakr's reply was not convincing; he said that the Almighty is on the Throne of Glory ('arsh). The Jewish scholars refuted the caliph: "If this be true, then the earth is devoid of Him'! At this sensitive juncture, 'Ali(a) (my note: rightful successor to the Prophet(sawa)] came to the rescue of Islam and upheld the dignity of the Muslim community. With impeccable reasoning he asserted:

'Indeed, God is the Creator of "where-ness", thus nowhere can be ascribed to Him. He transcends all place, and yet is present everywhere, without being encompassed or touched by any entity. His Knowledge is All-Embracing, and no thing is situated outside the domain of His omnipotent ordinance." (reference: Al-Mufid, Irshad (lithograph edition), p.107
 

The text goes on to mentioned the Jewish rabbis being impressed with Imam Ali's (a) response and saw that he was the true successor to the prophet (sawa). Ayatollah Subhani goes on and elaborates on Imam Al's(a) response and how this response upholds the tawhid, the Oneness of God. 

The logic is simple yet profound, in that if God is the Spirit that can be located (above the waters ie) - that location itself would also need to be eternal or else created by God aside from God, but tawhid says there is no one aside from God, nor a partner to Him. The Torah affirms this as well there is no one besides HASHEM. So yes, When Jesus(a) spoke of God, being one and quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 that HASHEM is one and only and Surah 112:

Quote

1 Say: 'He is Allah, the One,
2 Allah, the Everlasting Refuge,
3 who has not begotten, and has not been begotten,
4 and equal to Him is not any one.'.

Then, Allah is the same in Torah, Injil and the Qur'an. Alhamdulilah

Edited by Joshua Bin Medellin
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Quote

Where do you get that from? Where is it written that God's Spirit ascending and descending means its a creation? I ask you to please back this up through scriptures.

Dont create your own logic for God to dwell in. 

Ascending and descending are properties of creation, thus any thing that have these properties are created. This is an self evident!

There is no verse that tells that God Spirit was created AND NO VERSE that says that God Spirit is NOT an creation. But reading all these verses implies that this spirit have limited attributes and does contains on place and time.

Quote

I showed you that Gods Spirit is eternal as you yourself have shown because you could not find in scripture of God creating his holy spirit.

It is not Eternal in the sense that It has been with God Eternally. 

Quote

you could not find in scripture of God creating his holy spirit.

Because I do not need to show that something is creation as long IT IS mentioned in scripture that it is created. 

Quote

God's Spirit gives life. If you look at Genesis 2:7 it said "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living thing"

Yes, but this Spirit is not God.

Quote

Old Testament 

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

The throne is an creation of God and God is not on it. When God says My Heaven, My House, My Spirit, My Friend, etc they are all honorable creations that is subject to His will. 

Quote

New Testament 

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

He is equal in distance to everything and He is not closer to one thing than another. Saying that God is resting in throne in heaven is limiting God to location.

Quote

Are you sure Allah is the same God from Torah, Tanach and Gospels? 

The Jews will agree that God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that Muslims worship the same God. 

Muslims agree that Jews worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the same God than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). While Muslims also believe that Christians do worship the same God, but majority of them attribute false things about God.

What you and majority of Christians are following the footsteps of Paul. Very strange beliefs comparing to Jews beliefs and early prophets and messengers.

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Quote

Before Creation, what is there to ascent and descent? Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best. Just as Ruach is Hebrew for Spirit in Hebrew Bible the Ruh is the same in Arabic in the Qur'an. However there several dimensions to the word and how it is used - which I myself am curious to know more about (and hopefully will learn more about through further classes on the Qur'an). Through a tafsir class I attended, it was made evident that the Ruh was a creature of Allah and acts on behalf of Allah when Allah commands such as in Surah 3.59. The following ayats elaborates how Allah employs the Ruh in the support of Jesus(a) for his mission on earth:
 

From Kitab al Tawheed:

Imam Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (عليه السلام) said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created, chose, selected, and related the Spirit to Himself, favoring it over all the spirits. Thus, He commanded and breathed from it in to Adam.

Imam Abu 'Abd Allah (عليه السلام) said:

Verily, Allah, The Blessed and Exalted, is the Alone, the Needless, without an interior. Verily, the Spirit is a creation from His Creations. It is a helper, aid, and a source of strength. Allah places it in the heart of the Messengers and the Believers.

Imam Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (عليه السلام) said:

Verily, a spirit moves like the air. Hence, it is called a spirit (ruuh), because its name has been derived from the word air (riih). Verily, He derived it from the word al-Ruuh because the spirit is homogeneous [mujaanis] to the air [al-riih]. Verily, He associated it to Himself because He selected it over all the spirits like He selected the House from the houses and said: My House, and said for a Messenger from His Messengers: My Friend and its like. All of these are created, with a beginning, have a Lord, and are managed.

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