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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Christians Deny Allah

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:33 AM, dragonxx said:

I have been curious for the longest time how the Christians who actually read their bible come to the conclusion God = Jesus. Now I know. It's literal blindness.
Jesus is saying God sent me, the Christians say oh so you are God. No, God sent me, I have no power save what God permits me. Oh so you are God. No... 

Imagine I flew over to Russia and said "Biden sent me" and they replied "Oh, nice to meet you Biden". I reply, "I did not come from my own accord, I am not Biden, Biden sent me", and they reply "great, Mr. Biden, when are you going to order your troops to withdraw?"  ...........

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word."

Your argument is very interesting.  Thank you for bringing this point up.  I have never heard a Christian say the things you report them to say.  Christians are very happy to say that God sent Jesus the Messiah.  They are very willing to say that while Jesus the Messiah was on earth he acted through the power of God the Holy Spirit at work in him.  None of these things deny the charater and essence of who Jesus is.

The diety of Jesus is not based on a few "proof texts" but on the whole story of the Old Testament.  The teaching of Moses, David and the other prophets.  There is a thread running throughout these teachings of God coming to deliver his people.  That God himself would engage with sinful rebelious people and rescue them.  There are words which describe God as a Shepherd coming to hold the poor and needy in his arms and walk with them through their troubles.  God says he himself will come to Jerusalem and bring forgiveness and redemption.  These promises and many many more are reflected and fulfilled in the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was.  After he was resurrected and taken up to heaven his followers and freinds reflected on what they had experienced and dispite their strict Jewdeistic monothesism could come to no other conclusion than to say that "Jesus is Lord" and that "At his name every knee will bow".

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On 6/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I have never heard a Christian say the things you report them to say.  Christians are very happy to say that God sent Jesus the Messiah.

What? Ever-dearest Dave, I literally quoted the post by your fellow Christian saying what "I reported them to say"... not only that but...

On 6/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was.

How can you say these two quotes above in the same breath with a straight face? You must be trolling me.

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Guest Azrael


 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:41 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

but on the whole story of the Old Testament.  The teaching of Moses, David and the other prophets.  There is a thread running throughout these teachings of God coming to deliver his people. 

 

The OT doesn’t teach that at all.  You deliberately take allegories and hermeneutics out of context. 
 

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, not a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?”

Exodus 20:2-4 

“I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

Exodus 8:10 “There is no one like the Lord our God”

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.”

2 Chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built!”

2 Chronicles 2:6 “But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him. Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”
 

2 Kings 19:15 “You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” 

2 Samuel 7:22 “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, Nor there is any god beside You

Isaiah 43:10 Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me”

Jeremiah 10:6-7 There is none like You, O Lord; You are great, and Your name is great with might.

Who will not fear You, O King of the nations, for it befits You, for among all the wise men of the nations and among all their kingdom there is none like You.

Deuteronomy 4:12 The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no form, just a voice.“

Isaiah 44:6-8 “So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no god. 

And who will call [that he is] like Me and will tell it and arrange it for Me, since My placing the ancient people, and the signs and those that will come, let them tell for themselves.

Fear not and be not dismayed; did I not let you hear it from then, and I told [it] and you are My witnesses; is there a god beside Me? And there is no rock I did not know.”

 

All the prophets taught the absolute oneness of God (Unitarianism) and God is unique there is nothing like Him. Once God has come into His creation He becomes very limited and no longer unique 

 

when God says He will deliver His people that is not to be taken literally because the verses that I have mentioned give us the interpretation of these verses. When God says that,  He will do so by using an intermediary (I.e His messengers and prophets). commonsense. You are DELIBERATELY overlooking these verses.  
 

On 6/8/2021 at 8:41 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah had no need to say "I am God".  For those with eyes to see and understanding of the scriptures it became increasingly obvious what was happening and who he was. 


Jesus denied being many times. 
 

Your church fathers and priest twist passages taking them out of context and even deliberately misinterpret some passages aswell. 
 

Here’s an example. 
 

John 10:28-39

The problem with your church fathers they twist passages adding conjectural passages on parts that have been altered. Here’s the passage that we will be addressing. 

John 10:34-39

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Torah, ‘I have said you are “elohim” ’? 35If He called them ‘elohim,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

the highlighted passages are the main passages that will be addressed although their are other evident corrupted passages. Here’s what the literal translation says as is. 
 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not having been written in your law: I said, you are gods? 35If He called them gods to whom the word of God came (and the Writing is not allowed to be broken), 36of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, do you say—you slander, because I said, I am Son of God? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and may believe that the Father in me, and i in Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

we can clearly see there is a big difference between the literal translation and the non literal translation and also any other non literal translation. 

literal translation verse 36: of Him whom the Father sanctified

non literal translation verse 36: what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and

 

we can clearly see the nonliteral translation is very political theologically and not to mention an evident corruption since some words are missing but these words can be recovered by looking at the context, that is one part of this text science; let’s first start with the context then go on to the next part. 
 

In the literal translation, In verse 34 Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6 ,because the Jews accused him of claiming to be God because he said “I and the Father are one”,  to make point that what he said was an expression just like “I said, ‘you are elohim’” for if saying “I and the Father are one” is blasphemous then so is “I said,’ you are elohim’”. 
 

now if we read Psalms 82:6 these once-upon-a-time godly messengers  who had the word of God, broke(i.e altered) the scripture and judged unjustly by it which resulted in them being taken down like princess getting taken down and dying harshly like the son of adam. Jesus uses this argument in his favour proving his prophethood and messenger-ship in verse 35 saying, 

“If He called them ‘elohim’ to whom the word of God came (and the scripture is not allowed to be broken)“

Now here is the part where we use the content and context prior to verse 36 to see what where the missing words now I have already dissected the content and context of the verses prior to verse 36; which gives us a strong indication on what was Jesus argument against the Jews in verse 36. 
 

Which is, verse 36, “then what do you say about the word of Him whom God has sanctified and sent into the word?”

now here’s the second part of this text science, now we translate that to the original language of Jesus, once this part is translated into Aramaic the meaning and context slightly Changes and gives us what was the original saying of Christ or gives us much stronger indications and hints in what he said which will leads us to what he actually said.  Now this the translation of verse 36 from Aramaic to English.

”then what do you’s say about the word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to world?” 

now let’s put the puzzle together and see what is it conveying. 
 

34Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in the Torah that is with you’s : “I said, you are elohim?” 35If He called them “elohim” to whom the word of Allah came to; and the Scripture is not allowed to be broken, 36then what do you’s say about word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to the world? Do you’s now say “you’re a blasphemer”, because I profess that I am the messenger of Allaha? 37If I do not do the works of Allaha, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe in the works, that perhaps you may know that Allaha is with me, and I am with Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

now let’s apply the same textual science on the whole context. 
 

27as I said to you before; My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me,28and I give salvation to them, and they will not perish—never, and no one will snatch them out of my hand; 29my Lord, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the hand of my Lord; 30I and Allaha are one.”

31Therefore, again, the Jews took up stones that they may stone him; 32Jesus replied to them, “I showed you’s many marvellous works from my Lord; because of which deed from them do you stone me?”33The Jews answered him, saying, “We do not stone you for a marvellous deed, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a human, make yourself to be a  god.” 34Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in the Torah that is with you’s: ‘I said, you are “elohim”’?35If He called them elohim to whom the word of Allaha came to, and the Scripture is not allowed to be broken, 36then what do you’s say about the word that Allaha has sanctified and sent to the world? Do you’s now say “you’re a blasphemer”, because I profess that I am the messenger of Allaha? 37If I do not do the works of Allaha, do not believe me;38and if I do, even if you may not believe me, believe in the works, that perhaps you may know that Allaha is with me, and I am with Him.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

 

We can clearly see Jesus denying being God and proving his prophethood to the Jews and claiming to be messenger of God. 
 

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

The OT doesn’t teach that at all.

Thank you for your well researched and detailed comments.

Just one place where God talks about himeslf coming and getting involved with his people who have been led astray and who are far from him.  It is from Ezekiel 34

11 ‘“For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and make them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus the Messiahn when he talks of being the Good Sheperd is clearly referencing these verse and others like them in many of the Old Testament prophets.

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On 6/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Ibn Maymun said:

When you say the above, you see Jesus's reference to being the Good Shepherd as a claim to be God.  After all, God reveals to Ezekiel in the passage above that He is the Good Shepherd.  If Jesus makes the same claim, then clearly he's claiming to be God.  Is that a fair understanding of your words?  It's tight logic and I see where you're coming from.  

Thank you for your very clear and well thought out response.  I appreciate your explanation and see in your perspective many things I agree with.

I agree that the term 'Shepherd' is used extensively in the Old Testament as a euphemism of the king or other community leaders maybe even priests and prophets and so when God uses it for himself he is claiming his rightful place as the king and leader of his people.  This would make me think that when Jesus the Messiah uses the title for himself he is not just claiming he is a nice kind person but that he is presenting himself as a kingly leader.

This is also strongly supported by the phrase you introduce about the descendant of David and the fact that in both the genealogies given in the New Testament (one of Joseph and one of Mary) Jesus is shown to be a descendant of David and was called Son of David in many places.  Jesus the Messiah's link with David in this way is another pointer to his position as the one who is king of God's eternal house.  See the prophesy given to Isaiah in Chapter 9

For to us a child is born,

 

    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
    and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
    with justice and righteousness
    from that time on and for ever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
    will accomplish this.

Jeremiah 23

‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord,
    ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
    and do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Judah will be saved
    and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
    The Lord Our Righteous Saviour.

My reading of these prophesies puts this Shepherd from David's line as more than

On 6/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Ibn Maymun said:

an appointed figure who acts on God's behalf to carry out His will.  

But as God himself our Righteous Saviour

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On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

All the prophets taught the absolute oneness of God (Unitarianism) and God is unique there is nothing like Him. Once God has come into His creation He becomes very limited and no longer unique 

Thank you for your hard work in explaining this.

I love the verses you quote and rejoice that God is unique and there is none like him.  This means that he is able to show his uniqueness through incarnation.  Being unique does not rule out coming to enage with his creation.  In fact, it allows for it.  Only a unique God could do this unique thing in the unique way that God acts through Jesus the Messiah.

On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

when God says He will deliver His people that is not to be taken literally because the verses that I have mentioned give us the interpretation of these verses. When God says that,  He will do so by using an intermediary (I.e His messengers and prophets). 

Here you are denying the obvious reading of the passages and forcing an Islamic interpretation that limits God's ability to enage personally with his creation.  I much prefer to read these verses at face value and see the One and oonly Unique God interecting in a surprisingly unique way with his creation.

I am so excited that God himself in all his power sand glory came to rescue us and walk with us in our suffering and troubles rather than sending a weak prophet as an intermedary to pass on his message.

On 6/11/2021 at 6:07 PM, Guest Azrael said:

We can clearly see Jesus denying being God and proving his prophethood to the Jews and claiming to be messenger of God. 

Your explanation of the teaching of Jesus found in John goes against the clear understanding of the book as a whole.  Yes Jesus the Messiah was a messenger from God but he was much more than that.  John wrote the book with an aim. (Chapter 20:30-31)

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So we can expect to see the things he records explain and support his premiss.  The seven "I Am" statements:  “I am the bread of life”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the door”, “I am the good shepherd”, “I am the resurrection and the life”, “I am the way and the truth and the life” and “I am the true vine”.  The Seven signs, the teaching and focus on Jesus's death and resurrection all show John's desire to bring out Jesus' self disclosure and to draw the readers thoughts and mind back to the Old Testament claims of Almighty God the rescuer and deliverer of his people.

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

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9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

The only problem with this idea, is the idea that God has "need" for a condition to be fulfilled in order to be able to forgive. That condition being the blood sacrifice of Jesus. God doesn't "need" anything, He is complete unto himself and if he is going to forgive someone, then all he has to do is forgive them. He doesn't "need" a sacrifice in order to forgive sin, he just forgives it because he is "oft forgiving and the most merciful". If someone believes that God "couldn't forgive without a blood sacrifice", they are mistaken about how God operates and they are placing a limit on Him. Forgiveness is one of His characteristics, it's one of His names (al-Ghaffar-- He Who is Ready to Pardon and Forgive).

That's the thing that never made any sense to me about Christianity or Judaism, the idea that God "needed" some sort of a condition to be fulfilled by humans in order to do something.

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34 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

That's the thing that never made any sense to me about Christianity or Judaism, the idea that God "needed" some sort of a condition to be fulfilled by humans in order to do something.

It's not that God needed anything to forgive people.  It is that people need to see something to know and realize the full extent of their rejection of God and the asurance of forgivness.

The idea of blood sacrifice emphasises the seriousness of our shameful acts.  They have a consiquence - death.  Both our death and also, to be an example and symbol to us, the death of the sacrifice.

Also seeing the animal die and recognising what has happened gives a visual representation of the forgivness God has brought about.  So for me.  When I look to the historical event of the death and resurection of Jesus the Messiah, I can have assurance that God has acted in history to restore my relationship with him.  I can sense too the emensity of my sin and shame in that it needed the death of Jesus the Messiah to deal with it.

Sin is no light thing that just needs a few words said over it.  It is serious and has eternal consiquenses.

I rejoice that God has dealt with my sinful, dirty, shameful acts and life.  Once and for all I have been completly forgiven and am now accepted into God's family as his child.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I want to rephrase the OP to "Why do Muslims deny Allah?"  God throughout history has so clearly pointed to his saving action in coming to redeem and open the door to intemecy with himself.  So to reject this is to deny God's very nature.

 

We deny the interpretation of Christians about God, not that we deny God. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 6/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

It's not that God needed anything to forgive people.  It is that people need to see something to know and realize the full extent of their rejection of God and the asurance of forgivness.

The notion as it has been explained to me in the past at every evangelical christian church I've ever attended and "gotten saved" at (which I've "gotten saved" scores of times), is that God "wants to forgive you, but has to have someone take the punishment of sin, so he sent the perfect man (who was also him) to take that punishment in your place and the shedding of his blood is necessary in order for God to forgive you". It makes absolutely no sense to explain it that way, because there's no way that God could need something. Forgiveness is strictly God's purview, so he can extend it to whoever he pleases, however he pleases with no conditions needing to be fulfilled.

The thought I used to have about the crucifixion, was that if Jesus was God, that he chose to allow himself to be killed so he could show mankind that he "understood what they go through at their worst" but the more I thought about it, this didn't make sense either because it borders on gnosticism and all of that "divine mystery" stuff that the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach, which never made sense to me either because why would God make the decision to reveal things mysteriously when he could just do it clearly and concisely to people so that they would understand, knowing that by doing it through mysterious means that there were bound to be people who wouldn't believe him?

 

 

On 6/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I can sense too the emensity of my sin and shame in that it needed the death of Jesus the Messiah to deal with it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though: this supposes that God "needs" a conditioned to be fulfilled before He is capable of forgiving people's sins and that doesn't make any sense if God really is omniscient, omnipotent, and the source and beginning of existence itself. What happened to all of the people who died before Jesus? They just went to hell until Jesus died and then God suddenly decided "Ok now I can forgive these people's sins" and were taken out of the fire whose fuel is men and stones?

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On 6/22/2021 at 8:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The seven "I Am" statements:  “I am the bread of life”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the door”, “I am the good shepherd”, “I am the resurrection and the life”, “I am the way and the truth and the life” and “I am the true vine”.  

This reminds me of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) quote

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) said, “I am the one who became elevated and did overcome. I am the one who gives life and death. I am the first one and the last one. I am the apparent one and the hidden one."

Now, the unknowledgeable one will think immediately that someone as magnanimous as Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is claiming to be God, astaqfirallah. Just like how the christians claim Jesus = God. 

Strange when the Christian says God sent so-and-so and Behold! So-and-so died and became Lord. Why not say God sent Himself, God died, and God became God? Well, there is an obvious problem there... easier to give different names to different entities as that's more digestible to people. Except monotheism is out the window, but it's ok, 3=1.

Anyway, the explanation for the above, which one can draw a similar parallel to some of the quotes Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام)) might've said,

"As for my saying that, 'I am the one who became elevated and did overcome'. Then it means that I became elevated (above you) with this sword and overcame you until you believed in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P).
As for my saying that, 'I am the one who gives life and death'. Then it means that I give life to the tradition (Sunnah) and give death of Bid'ah.
As for my saying that, 'I am the first one'. Then it means that I am the first one to believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to submit to Him.
As for my saying that, 'I am the last one'. Then it means that I am the last one in terms of giving shroud to the Prophet and burying Him.
As for my saying that, 'I am the apparent one and the hidden one'. Then it means that with me is the apparent and hidden knowledge."

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On 6/24/2021 at 2:45 AM, dragonxx said:

Strange when the Christian says God sent so-and-so and Behold! So-and-so died and became Lord. Why not say God sent Himself, God died, and God became God? Well, there is an obvious problem there... easier to give different names to different entities as that's more digestible to people. Except monotheism is out the window, but it's ok, 3=1.

I'm sure you realise that what you have written does not describe how Christian people express their experience of God's work in history and in their own life.

I'm not going to unpick your gross simplification of a complex eternal act.  If you are really interested in an answer can I suggest you look at this link.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-sacrifice-Himself.html

On 6/24/2021 at 2:45 AM, dragonxx said:

This reminds me of Imam Ali

The interesting thing about your quote from Ali is that according to the hadith the people who heard it said it was blasphamy and Ali had to explain it by reducing the claims to mere events in his life of his actions and teaching.

On the other hand, Jesus the Messiah said these things in a context where people knew God's name as I AM.  Jesus the Messiah left these self identifications as said without reducing them.  His explinations of them went even further.  For example he was the bread that if people ate they would never go hungry.  His life giving power was the same as the Father's  They also reflect God's self disclosure in the previous prophets.  These seven statements are on a completly different level to the words of any other person.

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On 7/2/2021 at 8:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sure you realise that what you have written does not describe how Christian people express their experience of God's work in history and in their own life.

I'm not going to unpick your gross simplification of a complex eternal act.  If you are really interested in an answer can I suggest you look at this link.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-sacrifice-Himself.html

Sir Dave, I am not being dishonest, nor am I attempting to oversimplify nor ridicule. You are using the exact language I was referring to, for example

On 7/2/2021 at 8:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

His life giving power was the same as the Father's 

Jesus life giving power was the same as God. This is precisely what my "gross oversimplification" refers to, as you are repeatedly attesting to (inadvertently). Another example...

On 6/22/2021 at 3:36 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

When I look to the historical event of the death and resurection of Jesus the Messiah, I can have assurance that God has acted in history to restore my relationship with him.

You convenient switch to saying God in the same sentence you say death and resurrection of Jesus. Why, if they are one and the same? If Jesus is God, why must you switch from saying Jesus to God in your above statement? Well, because you and the rest of the masses would raise your eyebrow if someone said "the death and resurrection of God". I mean if God is dead, who is going to resurrect him? Jesus?

On 6/22/2021 at 8:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Only a unique God could do this unique thing in the unique way that God acts through Jesus the Messiah.

Yet another example, so don't speak foolishness and claim no Christian is experiences God in such a way when you are displaying it for the world to see; they will all be witnesses on the Day of Judgement so tread carefully. Further, you say "unique" God multiple times, example

On 6/22/2021 at 8:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I much prefer to read these verses at face value and see the One and oonly Unique God interecting in a surprisingly unique way with his creation.

how can God be unique if Jesus is God as well, or rises up as God as you put it?

How can you say things such as this

On 6/22/2021 at 8:40 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I am so excited that God himself in all his power sand glory came to rescue us and walk with us in our

Yet in the SAME breath say "God caused Jesus to die and resurrected Jesus"? Or is it God caused Jesus to die and resurrected God? I am not going to let you get away with gross impossibilities. A square has 4 sides, not 3, no matter what "unique" expression you envision, or brain washed to envision.

On 7/2/2021 at 8:23 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

These seven statements are on a completly different level to the words of any other person. 

Regardless of the level of his statements, Jesus ((عليه السلام)) never did anything or claimed anything without saying " with the permission of God". And perhaps you are like those who accused Imam Ali of blasphemy, taking things Jesus ((عليه السلام)) did out of context without understanding. 

All praise is to the One Lord who bestows what He wills to His creatures, including Jesus ((عليه السلام)), Mary ((عليه السلام)), Adam ((عليه السلام)), Rasoolallah (pbuhf).

Stop equating Jesus to God, or if you continue to do so just call them both God and stop using your convenient names for two separate entities who happen to also be one and the same. Complex, right?

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@dragonxxThanks so much for asking these really complex and honest questions.  I can understand your confusion and I appologize for not being clearer.  The problem is that we are talking about God who is way beyond our finite minds and understanding.  I wonder if you think God is easy to understand and simple to explain?  I feel that a God who created the universe with his powerful word and placed humanity within his creation is far beyond what I can explain with my words or understand with my mind.  If I can understand God he becomes less than an almighty infinite eternal being.  Is this somthing you agree with?

I also want to emphasise that as a follower of Jesus the Messiah I believe and worship ONE God.  There is no doubt in my mind that there can not be more than one God.  The Scripture (and dare I say it logic) make it clear that there was a creator of everything which means God is above all and greater than all.  Whatever else the Genesis accounts of creation teach it is clear that this is their emphasis.

So how am I going to understand Jesus the Messiah, the Holy Spirit and the person who Jesus addresses as Father?  My first position is to emphasise the ONEness of God.  I am never talking about three separate gods.  The Jews of the times of the previous prophets were very clear on this, Jesus the Messiah, brought up in this context, emphasised it and the apostles who wrote the Injil proclaimed it.

When we read the Old Testament there is also a declaration that God is not only one but also unique.  This means there is no one or nothing like him.  We also have revelation from this unique God saying that he will come and personally rescue people from darkness, evil and death.  There are also ambiguous passages in the Old Testament acounts where it seems that God is personally and physically present and engaging with someone.  The creation account also declares that God made people in his image and likeness.  This is hard to understand but indicates that when we look at humanity - men and women and communities in relationship - we see a reflection of God.

When Jesus the Messiah comes John the Baptist (Yahya) declares that this is the Lord.  That Jesus is the fulfilment of the promises that God was coming to rescue his people.  In the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah we see a person doing and saying things that the Old Testament say are things that God does.  Things like stilling the storm, walking on water, forgiving sins, and using the name I AM.  His resurrection from the dead adds a stamp of affirmation to what the people were thinking Jesus the Messiah is someone special, someone unique, could this person be God?

Very soon after Jesus left earth and ascended into heaven the followers of Jesus experience something which they understand to be a filling with God himself.  The Holy Spirit has come and is living in each of them.  They also start to include Jesus in their worship - writing hymns which acknowledge him as Lord and worthy of the worship that has been given to God alone (see Philippians chapter 2:5-11)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=philip+2%3A5-11&version=NIVUK

They do not stop believing in ONE God but see that one God in a new light and start to understand the implications and allusions of the Old Testament teaching and prophesies.  This ONE God who is unique and different from anything else had shown his father heart of love and had come to live among his creation and was now living within those who follow and serve him.

This is where your questions come in.  When I talk about God it is a word which encapsulates a wide and inclusive understanding of both the ONEness of God but also his expression and revelation as the loving Father, the Messiah who came to earth and the Spirit who lives in those who believe.  There is an interaction within the ONEness of God involving planning, sending, conversing and acting in seemingly separate ways.  Yet, the ONEness is not broken and there is complete unity and agreement.

I can not explain in words how the ONE God can be understood as three persons.  The mechanics of how God does this is beyond human understanding.  It is like an ant trying to understand an elephant or a 2 Dimensional being trying to understand three dimensions.  What I can say is that I live it and experience it each day.  I praise and worship and pray to the ONE God.  I know the love of Father God embracing me and accepting me.  I experience the power of God the Holy Spirit in my life helping me to understand his ways and giving me strength to overcome temptations.  I walk each moment with Jesus the Messiah beside me as my friend and companion.

And it is not just experience.  This view of God gives clarity and understanding to many passages in the Old Testament and in the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah.  Things start to drop into place and the Jigsaw becomes whole.

If you have managed to read this far - Thank you!  If you have other questions and want clarification, I will see what I can do.  But my prayer is that you will encounter God and that he will reveal himself to you and help you understand his being and his wonderful plan for your life.

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15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Thanks so much for asking these really complex and honest questions.  I can understand your confusion and I appologize for not being clearer.  The problem is that we are talking about God who is way beyond our finite minds and understanding.  I wonder if you think God is easy to understand and simple to explain?  I feel that a God who created the universe with his powerful word and placed humanity within his creation is far beyond what I can explain with my words or understand with my mind.  If I can understand God he becomes less than an almighty infinite eternal being.  Is this somthing you agree with?

Absolutely agree, as you very well know kind Sir.

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I also want to emphasise that as a follower of Jesus the Messiah I believe and worship ONE God.  There is no doubt in my mind that there can not be more than one God.  The Scripture (and dare I say it logic) make it clear that there was a creator of everything which means God is above all and greater than all.  Whatever else the Genesis accounts of creation teach it is clear that this is their emphasis.

Indeed, to follow the way of Jesus is to follow the way of God, for Jesus is a messenger of God and who other than the great messenger knows how to worship God?

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

When Jesus the Messiah comes John the Baptist (Yahya) declares that this is the Lord.  That Jesus is the fulfilment of the promises that God was coming to rescue his people.  In the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah we see a person doing and saying things that the Old Testament say are things that God does.  Things like stilling the storm, walking on water, forgiving sins, and using the name I AM.  His resurrection from the dead adds a stamp of affirmation to what the people were thinking Jesus the Messiah is someone special, someone unique, could this person be God?

Indeed, similar to other Prophets of God, Jesus was bestowed the ability to forge many miracles including raising the dead, by the permission of God (here I am not using God and Jesus interchangeably like you).

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

"he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death –
        even death on a cross!" The Lord does not obey death, death obeys the Lord.

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."

 

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I can not explain in words how the ONE God can be understood as three persons.  The mechanics of how God does this is beyond human understanding.  It is like an ant trying to understand an elephant or a 2 Dimensional being trying to understand three dimensions.  What I can say is that I live it and experience it each day.  I praise and worship and pray to the ONE God.  I know the love of Father God embracing me and accepting me.  I experience the power of God the Holy Spirit in my life helping me to understand his ways and giving me strength to overcome temptations.  I walk each moment with Jesus the Messiah beside me as my friend and companion.

Neither can I explain the nature of God, on this we agree clearly. However I am unwilling to accept a God limited in space, time, function, reach, a God who is subject to the very same lowly functions of that which he created, for All is the subject of God, and God is never the subject of Any; how can the Creator be a subject of His Creation?

Evidently, we have reached an impasse. 

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If you have managed to read this far - Thank you!  If you have other questions and want clarification, I will see what I can do.  But my prayer is that you will encounter God and that he will reveal himself to you and help you understand his being and his wonderful plan for your life.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I regret we can never see eye to eye but I am happy to have learned your perspective for it has further strengthened my heart in the miracles of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) and his call to his God and my God.

لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِيَ دِينِ

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On 7/7/2021 at 2:21 AM, dragonxx said:

how can the Creator be a subject of His Creation?

The Almighty God can chose to become part of / subject to his creation.  He is able to do this because he made the material world.  If God is a sigularity or a monad then this becomes imposible but if there is a dynamic relationship with in the ONEness of God then God is able to maintain his otherness and at the same time enter his creation.

The passage in Philippians 2 That I mentioned has two phrases using the same word 'nature'

being in very nature God,

and

taking the very nature of a servant

Just as Jesus was by nature God he chose to become by nature a human servant.

On 7/7/2021 at 2:21 AM, dragonxx said:

I regret we can never see eye to eye but I am happy to have learned your perspective

Thank you for your generosity - I recognise your posision and respect you for it.  Thanks for your comments and clear and helpful explinations.

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On 4/23/2021 at 7:51 PM, Abu Nur said:

So you accept that you don't believe in same God than Jews God?

Many Jewish people don't know that God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit even though it is taught in the Old Testament. "Let us make man in OUR Image" The Hebrew word for ONE does not mean the number one, it means a Unity of one. For example when Adam and Eve became one flesh. Many Jews now are recognizing Yeshua as Messiah and are learning how to worship the one true God. 

I have a question

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

In Psalms the Father was in Heaven and he sent down his Holy Spirit to dwell with David.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is it? Is it some distant being? Why was God able to be in heaven and his Holy Spirit on earth dwelling with Prophet David? 

 

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On 9/24/2021 at 12:22 PM, tek91 said:

Many Jewish people don't know that God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit even though it is taught in the Old Testament. "Let us make man in OUR Image" The Hebrew word for ONE does not mean the number one, it means a Unity of one. For example when Adam and Eve became one flesh. Many Jews now are recognizing Yeshua as Messiah and are learning how to worship the one true God. 

I have a question

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

In Psalms the Father was in Heaven and he sent down his Holy Spirit to dwell with David.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is it? Is it some distant being? Why was God able to be in heaven and his Holy Spirit on earth dwelling with Prophet David? 

 

Brother not to be rude the bible is corrupted no one should be trust the bible because everyone changed it, its not god words anymore ima list 100% clear error can tell from reading it. 

An extreme example is in Acts 3:26, in which even the KJV and the NKV seem to differ widely:

KJV: Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

NKJV: To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.

 

Why does the KJV say “his Son Jesus” and the NKJV say “His Servant Jesus” — and is there any significance in the difference? The problem is that the original Greek version does not even mention Jesus, but does mention “his servant”. The ESV is a more accurate translation:

ESV: When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

thats 1 reason, the second reason age doesn't match in the same book for example this from KJV

2 Kings {24:8} Jehoiachin [was] eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name [was] Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. {24:9} And he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.  2 Chronicles {36:9} Jehoiachin [was] eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD.  

king james bible - so was he 8 or 18 im a bit confused 

third reason you know history of king james he was gay with Esmé Stewart; Robert Carr; and George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham etc.

theres so much more about king james. i can go for days.

I have few questions for you?

Which bible do you follow?

Do you believe the bible is god words or humans changed it? - if you believe gods words I can provide more evidence of age and year error.

Do you know the old testament  - if you believe so, show me one from old testament and ill become a christian today.

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17 hours ago, tek91 said:

Many Jewish people don't know that God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit even though it is taught in the Old Testament. "Let us make man in OUR Image" The Hebrew word for ONE does not mean the number one, it means a Unity of one. For example when Adam and Eve became one flesh. Many Jews now are recognizing Yeshua as Messiah and are learning how to worship the one true God. 

I have a question

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

In Psalms the Father was in Heaven and he sent down his Holy Spirit to dwell with David.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is it? Is it some distant being? Why was God able to be in heaven and his Holy Spirit on earth dwelling with Prophet David? 

 

It is not taught by old testament, rather it is late Christian interpretation of old testament. Before Jesus (عليه السلام) and Christianity, the prophets never taught that what christians inteprate of old testament today. 

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17 hours ago, tek91 said:

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is it? Is it some distant being? Why was God able to be in heaven and his Holy Spirit on earth dwelling with Prophet David? 

It is an creation of God that support the prophets by God commands, not God Himself. 

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On 9/24/2021 at 10:46 AM, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

Brother not to be rude the bible is corrupted no one should be trust the bible because everyone changed it, its not god words anymore ima list 100% clear error can tell from reading it. 

An extreme example is in Acts 3:26, in which even the KJV and the NKV seem to differ widely:

KJV: Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

NKJV: To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.

 

Why does the KJV say “his Son Jesus” and the NKJV say “His Servant Jesus” — and is there any significance in the difference? The problem is that the original Greek version does not even mention Jesus, but does mention “his servant”. The ESV is a more accurate translation:

ESV: When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

thats 1 reason, the second reason age doesn't match in the same book for example this from KJV

2 Kings {24:8} Jehoiachin [was] eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name [was] Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. {24:9} And he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.  2 Chronicles {36:9} Jehoiachin [was] eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD.  

king james bible - so was he 8 or 18 im a bit confused 

third reason you know history of king james he was gay with Esmé Stewart; Robert Carr; and George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham etc.

theres so much more about king james. i can go for days.

I have few questions for you?

Which bible do you follow?

Do you believe the bible is god words or humans changed it? - if you believe gods words I can provide more evidence of age and year error.

Do you know the old testament  - if you believe so, show me one from old testament and ill become a christian today.

 

 

 

I appreciate your feedback, but it is completely off topic concerning my question and should be dealt in a different post as to not distract from what is being said. These kind of contradiction posts could get ugly and heated as there are many so called contradictions in the bible and so called contradictions in the quran, as well as many information on google and answers to these so called contradictions.

As to the KJV and NKJV those are translations of which were written for modern times translated carefully from the original greek text NT and Hebrew text OT.

You will find many different wording in same passages on the different translations of the quran as well.  There are over 30 different translations of the quran in existence. Would I be fair if I say your quran is corrupted because let's say the translation written by Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates different then the one by Pickthall or Asad.

Think of it as to how when a person ask you a question about the translation of the quran, you might tell them they have to look at the original arabic and in like manner, you have to look at the original hebrew and greek manuscripts.

I say carefully translated as it took many years for the original text to develop and the corrupting of the scriptures were not simple as you might think.

People throughout history were disgraced and riots broke out over simple words changed.

Read about the adulterous bible. This bible was published in 1631 and the writer accidentally changed the ten commandment where it said "Thou Shalt not commit adultery,", instead he translated it as ,"Thou shalt commit adultery." That one mistake caused riots in the city, all the copies were immediately cancelled or burned.

I would urge you to read and study the earliest greek and hebrew manuscripts if you are looking to find out information about learning what the bible teaches and compare them to what is in your translation of the bible. 

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On 9/25/2021 at 3:57 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is not taught by old testament, rather it is late Christian interpretation of old testament. Before Jesus (عليه السلام) and Christianity, the prophets never taught that what christians inteprate of old testament today. 

I quoted Old Testament you can ask any Jewish person they would tell you that verse about the Holy Spirit is in their Tanach.

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On 9/25/2021 at 4:00 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is an creation of God that support the prophets by God commands, not God Himself. 

The Holy Spirit a creation? Can you point where that is in scriptures? If you read the account of creation and everything God created in the book of Genesis the Holy Spirit was never mentioned as something created, instead it is part of creation as in Genesis 1:2 says God's Spirit was hovering over the waters.

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On 9/24/2021 at 10:49 AM, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

**Do you know the old testament  never said jesus was god, if you believe so, show me one from old testament that jesus said his god and ill become a christian today.

fixed my typo sry

The Word did not manifest in the flesh in the books of the Old Testament, it happened in the New.

If you mean prophecies of Messiah when he comes being God you could find scriptures like the sign God gave to Isaiah for the house of David in which an unmarried young woman understood to be a virgin bearing a child that will have the name of Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

As believers of Yeshua we are not saying the Father came down to Earth. If that where to happen the whole universe would fall apart. We believe he sent his Word. Think of it as how I showed you that God sent his Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to dwell with David. 

The Father was in heaven and his Word (Logo) became flesh. Think of it as Yeshua's body being the tabernacle God used to manifest himself among the people living at that time, as we cannot see God and live but they saw his physical manifestation.

If you do not believe this I can show you many scriptures of Jesus own words speaking of his pre-existence and showing things like that he shared glory with the Father before the World was and that he existed before Abraham and witnessed Satan falling down from heaven. There are just so many verses showing that Yeshua's existence did not start when he was born around 2000 years ago. Many of his own words shows that he willingly CHOSE to come down to Earth to save a fallen humanity. Verse that cannot be denied.

There's also evidence in what he says, for instance he claims to be the Resurrection and the life, he claimed to hold the power to forgive sins, resurrect people, to be the fountain of living water and many more things he said, that would eitherwise be blasphemous if he was not God. He laments seeing Jerusalem and his desires to gather their children together as a hen gathers her chicks. Which if you know Old Testament you would know of the endless struggles God had trying to gather the children of Israel because they constantly used their free will to go after other gods and disobey.  

I will allow you to say you believe those verse are corrupted and the conversation will end and I will accept that as your answer.

You will not be able to say it is not taught.

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5 hours ago, tek91 said:

The Word did not manifest in the flesh in the books of the Old Testament, it happened in the New.

If you mean prophecies of Messiah when he comes being God you could find scriptures like the sign God gave to Isaiah for the house of David in which an unmarried young woman understood to be a virgin bearing a child that will have the name of Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

As believers of Yeshua we are not saying the Father came down to Earth. If that where to happen the whole universe would fall apart. We believe he sent his Word. Think of it as how I showed you that God sent his Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to dwell with David. 

The Father was in heaven and his Word (Logo) became flesh. Think of it as Yeshua's body being the tabernacle God used to manifest himself among the people living at that time, as we cannot see God and live but they saw his physical manifestation.

If you do not believe this I can show you many scriptures of Jesus own words speaking of his pre-existence and showing things like that he shared glory with the Father before the World was and that he existed before Abraham and witnessed Satan falling down from heaven. There are just so many verses showing that Yeshua's existence did not start when he was born around 2000 years ago. Many of his own words shows that he willingly CHOSE to come down to Earth to save a fallen humanity. Verse that cannot be denied.

There's also evidence in what he says, for instance he claims to be the Resurrection and the life, he claimed to hold the power to forgive sins, resurrect people, to be the fountain of living water and many more things he said, that would eitherwise be blasphemous if he was not God. He laments seeing Jerusalem and his desires to gather their children together as a hen gathers her chicks. Which if you know Old Testament you would know of the endless struggles God had trying to gather the children of Israel because they constantly used their free will to go after other gods and disobey.  

I will allow you to say you believe those verse are corrupted and the conversation will end and I will accept that as your answer.

You will not be able to say it is not taught.

I'm sry but how is Marry that powerful she can fit God in her whom. Its like trying to fit swimming pool 198L into a 1L water bottle. God can't sleep or rest can't even die if god sleeps or rest than who controls the universe. Hold 2 cups of water for 24 hours and stay standing up im pretty sure the cups will fall down from your hands when you sleep. How am I going to believe in a corrupted bible when god does no mistakes. If I see one mistake I can't trust the whole bible. The oldest bible is Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible) but jesus never spoke greek his language was Aramaic, this shows the first bible is disappeared.    

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

I appreciate your feedback, but it is completely off topic concerning my question and should be dealt in a different post as to not distract from what is being said. These kind of contradiction posts could get ugly and heated as there are many so called contradictions in the bible and so called contradictions in the quran, as well as many information on google and answers to these so called contradictions.

As to the KJV and NKJV those are translations of which were written for modern times translated carefully from the original greek text NT and Hebrew text OT.

You will find many different wording in same passages on the different translations of the quran as well.  There are over 30 different translations of the quran in existence. Would I be fair if I say your quran is corrupted because let's say the translation written by Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates different then the one by Pickthall or Asad.

Think of it as to how when a person ask you a question about the translation of the quran, you might tell them they have to look at the original arabic and in like manner, you have to look at the original hebrew and greek manuscripts.

I say carefully translated as it took many years for the original text to develop and the corrupting of the scriptures were not simple as you might think.

People throughout history were disgraced and riots broke out over simple words changed.

Read about the adulterous bible. This bible was published in 1631 and the writer accidentally changed the ten commandment where it said "Thou Shalt not commit adultery,", instead he translated it as ,"Thou shalt commit adultery." That one mistake caused riots in the city, all the copies were immediately cancelled or burned.

I would urge you to read and study the earliest greek and hebrew manuscripts if you are looking to find out information about learning what the bible teaches and compare them to what is in your translation of the bible. 

Yes the translations are different in quran but the Arabic it's all same has not been changed still in original form. I brought this up because I can't trust the bible quotes because the bible has been changed. 

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3 hours ago, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

I'm sry but how is Marry that powerful she can fit God in her whom. Its like trying to fit swimming pool 198L into a 1L water bottle. God can't sleep or rest can't even die if god sleeps or rest than who controls the universe. Hold 2 cups of water for 24 hours and stay standing up im pretty sure the cups will fall down from your hands when you sleep. How am I going to believe in a corrupted bible when god does no mistakes. If I see one mistake I can't trust the whole bible. The oldest bible is Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible) but jesus never spoke greek his language was Aramaic, this shows the first bible is disappeared.    

Phillipians 2:7 states Yeshua basically emptied himself to become man. 

You would have to understand the concept of the Father being in heaven and at the same time sending his Word to be born of the Holy Spirit. 

LOL I cannot debate with you if you believe the bible is corrupted. It's basically a strawman argument.  You say "yea, the bible is corrupted, because I say so, the proof is the bible disapeared." ooook

All I hear is islamic theology. Are there any pre-corrupted text in existence to show what was said before and after these corruptions took place? 

Are you going to say no they were all lost? I can't dialogue with that, because basically i'm arguing with your belief that it's corrupted.

I know you will bring some so called contradictions in the bible and say that's proof when that's not proof there are many sites that disprove these misunderstandings.

Just like there are sites with thousands of contradictions in the quran.

These arguments are silly and childish, it goes nowhere if no evidence is planted just "bible corrupted I say so."

Some pre-corruption verses would help me see the light of these corruption and to see what was said before and after the curruption took place. If not I really can't take you seriously.

If you can find these pre-corrupted text you can be famous.


Another thing that doesn't make sense is OK so Allah spent all this time creating the Hebrew Torah and Gospel only to be powerless to stop sinful men from corrupting it? Allah doesn't seem really powerful.

Why does the quran then say that "he revealed the Torah and gospel before as guidance", only to be unable to protect it? 

Does not make sense to me. 

How did Allah lose the bible, did he misplace it?

 

 

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On 9/26/2021 at 9:39 PM, tek91 said:

Phillipians 2:7 states Yeshua basically emptied himself to become man. 

You would have to understand the concept of the Father being in heaven and at the same time sending his Word to be born of the Holy Spirit. 

LOL I cannot debate with you if you believe the bible is corrupted. It's basically a strawman argument.  You say "yea, the bible is corrupted, because I say so, the proof is the bible disapeared." ooook

All I hear is islamic theology. Are there any pre-corrupted text in existence to show what was said before and after these corruptions took place? 

Are you going to say no they were all lost? I can't dialogue with that, because basically i'm arguing with your belief that it's corrupted.

I know you will bring some so called contradictions in the bible and say that's proof when that's not proof there are many sites that disprove these misunderstandings.

Just like there are sites with thousands of contradictions in the quran.

These arguments are silly and childish, it goes nowhere if no evidence is planted just "bible corrupted I say so."

Some pre-corruption verses would help me see the light of these corruption and to see what was said before and after the curruption took place. If not I really can't take you seriously.

If you can find these pre-corrupted text you can be famous.


Another thing that doesn't make sense is OK so Allah spent all this time creating the Hebrew Torah and Gospel only to be powerless to stop sinful men from corrupting it? Allah doesn't seem really powerful.

Why does the quran then say that "he revealed the Torah and gospel before as guidance", only to be unable to protect it? 

Does not make sense to me. 

How did Allah lose the bible, did he misplace it?

Allah created these books to guide people, Torah got corrupted He sent Gospel, Gospel got corrupted said this will be the last book and persevered which known as quran. The books got corrupted because people changing meanings or lost the original book. The Qur’an Allah said no one is allowed to change any words or meanings stay the same and made it easy memorise. Allah so powerful he chooses anything he wants for example if he wants the baby come out the whom in 1 week he will do it, if he wants it 1 year he do it. Allah showed us in quran evidence for example the knocking sound no one can hear it unless you have a technology and back than there was no technology. 1400 years ago no one had technology to know about space. There's more evidence but I can go all day.

But let's say the gospel  is God words.

Do you think God will say this to us?

"Young people take pride in their strength, but the gray hairs of wisdom are even more beautiful.

A severe beating can knock all of the evil out of you!

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 20:29-30)

"

"Hatred stirs up trouble; love overlooks the wrongs that others do. If you have good sense, it will show when you speak. But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick. If you have good sense, you will learn all you can, but foolish talk will soon destroy you.

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 10:12-14)

"

"A curse you don’t deserve will take wings and fly away like a sparrow or a swallow. Horses and donkeys must be beaten and bridled—

and so must fools

. Don’t make a fool of yourself by answering a fool.

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 26:2-4)

The man is allowed to cut the woman's hands if she defends her husband in the wrong way:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12

"And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

The daughter would get burnt alive with fire:

Leviticus 21:9

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the loose woman, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

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On 9/26/2021 at 11:11 PM, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

Allah created these books to guide people, Torah got corrupted He sent Gospel, Gospel got corrupted said this will be the last book and persevered which known as quran. The books got corrupted because people changing meanings or lost the original book. The Qur’an Allah said no one is allowed to change any words or meanings stay the same and made it easy memorise. Allah so powerful he chooses anything he wants for example if he wants the baby come out the whom in 1 week he will do it, if he wants it 1 year he do it. Allah showed us in quran evidence for example the knocking sound no one can hear it unless you have a technology and back than there was no technology. 1400 years ago no one had technology to know about space. There's more evidence but I can go all day.

But let's say the gospel  is God words.

Do you think God will say this to us?

"Young people take pride in their strength, but the gray hairs of wisdom are even more beautiful.

 

A severe beating can knock all of the evil out of you!

 

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 20:29-30)

 

"

 

"Hatred stirs up trouble; love overlooks the wrongs that others do. If you have good sense, it will show when you speak. But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick. If you have good sense, you will learn all you can, but foolish talk will soon destroy you.

 

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 10:12-14)

 

"

 

"A curse you don’t deserve will take wings and fly away like a sparrow or a swallow. Horses and donkeys must be beaten and bridled—

 

and so must fools

 

. Don’t make a fool of yourself by answering a fool.

 

(From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 26:2-4)

 

The man is allowed to cut the woman's hands if she defends her husband in the wrong way:

 

Deuteronomy 25:11-12

 

"And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

 

The daughter would get burnt alive with fire:

 

Leviticus 21:9

 

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the loose woman, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

 

 

 As adults I want us to conduct a dialogue in an intelligent matter instead of attacking each others books which I feel is fruitless.  I do not want to take the discussion in that direction.

 It would be better if you build a separate thread if you really are interested in understanding those scriptures I could one by one look for answers online for you. It won't be all at once, you have alot but I would look for answers for you. You have to read the verses in context you can't just take some verses at face value. 

Many of the verses can be easily refuted the verse about cutting the woman's hand can be refuted here.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2016/12-08.html

I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

If I just throw this at you and say see the quran is corrupted would that be fair or add to a peaceful dialogue? ok so please understand that throwing things you find online at me to attack can be immature and fruitless to a decent dialogue.

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20 minutes ago, tek91 said:

 As adults I want us to conduct a dialogue in an intelligent matter instead of attacking each others books which I feel is fruitless.  I do not want to take the discussion in that direction.

 It would be better if you build a separate thread if you really are interested in understanding those scriptures I could one by one look for answers online for you. It won't be all at once, you have alot but I would look for answers for you. You have to read the verses in context you can't just take some verses at face value. 

Many of the verses can be easily refuted the verse about cutting the woman's hand can be refuted here.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2016/12-08.html

 

I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

If I just throw this at you and say see the quran is corrupted would that be fair or add to a peaceful dialogue? ok so please understand that throwing things you find online at me to attack can be immature and fruitless to a decent dialogue.

 

 

 

Hey brother I don't see this as a attacking. I believe the quran is persevered from human being and books. I related to lots of my family that know quran of by heart, you go to random page they will read it for you with blindfold. So many Muslims around have qurab memorised. You can throw me as much verses you want I'll still answer it and show you its not corrupted.

[QURAN 8:12]

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

English - Sahih International

 

Period of Ayah : Battle of Badr


Date of Battle : 13th March 624 A.D. / 17th Ramadan 2 A.H

Highlights & Facts of Battle of Badr

  • Fought between Muslims of Medina vs Quraish of Mecca
  • Commander & Leaders of Muslims of Medina
    • Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (Commander in Chief)
    • Hamza ibn Abd al-Muttalib (L)
    • Ali ibn Abi Talib (L)
  • Commander & Leaders of Quraish of Mecca
    • Abu Jahl (Commander)
    • Utbah ibn Rabiah
    • Umayyah ibn Khalaf
    • Hind al-Hunnud
  • Strength of Muslims of Medina
    • 313 men
    • 2 horses
    • 70 camels
  • Strength of Quraish of Mecca
    • 1000 men
    • 100 horses
    • 170 camels
  • 14 martyred from Muslims
  • 70 killed from Quraish
  • 70 Quraish soldiers were taken as prisoners

Allah assisted Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by sending 500 angels under command of Jibraiel and another 500 angels under command of Michaiel.


Explanation of the verse:

إِذْ يُوحِي رَبُّكَ إِلَى الْمَليِكَةِ أَنِّي مَعَكُمْ فَثَبِّتُواْ الَّذِينَ امَنُواْ

(Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed.”

This is a hidden favor that Allah has made known to the believers, so that they thank Him and are grateful to Him for it. Allah, glorified, exalted, blessed and praised be He, has revealed to the angels -- whom He sent to support His Prophet, religion and believing group -- to make the believers firmer.

Allah's statement,


سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرَّعْبَ



I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved.

means, `you -- angels -- support the believers, strengthen their (battle) front against their enemies, thus, implementing My command to you. I will cast fear, disgrace and humiliation over those who defied My command and denied My Messenger,

فَاضْرِبُواْ فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاقِ وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ


so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.

strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet.

According to Ad-Dahhak and Atiyyah Al-`Awfi,
فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاق

(over the necks), refers to striking the forehead, or the neck,

In support of the latter, Allah commanded the believers,


فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَضَرْبَ الرِّقَابِ حَتَّى إِذَا أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ فَشُدُّواْ الْوَثَاقَ


English - Yusuf Ali


Therefore, when ye (you) meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length (till), when ye (you) have thoroughly subdued (conquered) them, bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).

(Quran 47:4)

Ar-Rabi bin Anas said,

"In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, 
by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire."

Allah said,
وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ



and smite over all their fingers and toes.

Ibn Jarir commented that this Ayah commands,

"O believers! Strike every limb and finger on the hands and feet of your (disbelieving) enemies."

Al-Awfi reported, that Ibn Abbas said about the battle of Badr that;

Abu Jahl (the enemy) said, "Do not kill them (the Muslims), but capture them so that you make known to them what they did, their ridiculing your religion and shunning Al-Lat and Al-Uzza (two idols)."

Allah then sent down to the angels,


أَنِّي مَعَكُمْ فَثَبِّتُواْ الَّذِينَ امَنُواْ

سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرَّعْبَ

فَاضْرِبُواْ فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاقِ وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ



Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.

In that battle, Abu Jahl (may Allah curse him) was killed along with sixty-nine men. `Uqbah bin Abu Mua`it was captured and then killed, thus bring the death toll of the pagans to seventy

(Tafseer ibn Kathir)


The Misconception :

The verse “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved” is actually the assist given from Allah to Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) during the Battle of Badr by casting terror into the hearts of Quraish Army (the disbelievers). And the verse “so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip” is from Allah to the angels who have been sent down to assist Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to win the Battle of Badr.

Remember : The verses of the Quran was given to Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) on different occasions and the people around him used to learn those verses which was later compiled into one.

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1 hour ago, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

Hey brother I don't see this as a attacking. I believe the quran is persevered from human being and books. I related to lots of my family that know quran of by heart, you go to random page they will read it for you with blindfold. So many Muslims around have qurab memorised. You can throw me as much verses you want I'll still answer it and show you its not corrupted.

[QURAN 8:12]

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

English - Sahih International

 

Period of Ayah : Battle of Badr


Date of Battle : 13th March 624 A.D. / 17th Ramadan 2 A.H

Highlights & Facts of Battle of Badr

  • Fought between Muslims of Medina vs Quraish of Mecca
  • Commander & Leaders of Muslims of Medina
    • Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (Commander in Chief)
    • Hamza ibn Abd al-Muttalib (L)
    • Ali ibn Abi Talib (L)
  • Commander & Leaders of Quraish of Mecca
    • Abu Jahl (Commander)
    • Utbah ibn Rabiah
    • Umayyah ibn Khalaf
    • Hind al-Hunnud
  • Strength of Muslims of Medina
    • 313 men
    • 2 horses
    • 70 camels
  • Strength of Quraish of Mecca
    • 1000 men
    • 100 horses
    • 170 camels
  • 14 martyred from Muslims
  • 70 killed from Quraish
  • 70 Quraish soldiers were taken as prisoners

Allah assisted Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by sending 500 angels under command of Jibraiel and another 500 angels under command of Michaiel.


Explanation of the verse:

إِذْ يُوحِي رَبُّكَ إِلَى الْمَليِكَةِ أَنِّي مَعَكُمْ فَثَبِّتُواْ الَّذِينَ امَنُواْ

(Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed.”

This is a hidden favor that Allah has made known to the believers, so that they thank Him and are grateful to Him for it. Allah, glorified, exalted, blessed and praised be He, has revealed to the angels -- whom He sent to support His Prophet, religion and believing group -- to make the believers firmer.

Allah's statement,


سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرَّعْبَ



I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved.

means, `you -- angels -- support the believers, strengthen their (battle) front against their enemies, thus, implementing My command to you. I will cast fear, disgrace and humiliation over those who defied My command and denied My Messenger,

فَاضْرِبُواْ فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاقِ وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ


so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.

strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet.

According to Ad-Dahhak and Atiyyah Al-`Awfi,
فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاق

(over the necks), refers to striking the forehead, or the neck,

In support of the latter, Allah commanded the believers,


فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَضَرْبَ الرِّقَابِ حَتَّى إِذَا أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ فَشُدُّواْ الْوَثَاقَ


English - Yusuf Ali


Therefore, when ye (you) meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length (till), when ye (you) have thoroughly subdued (conquered) them, bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).

(Quran 47:4)

Ar-Rabi bin Anas said,

"In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, 
by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire."

Allah said,
وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ



and smite over all their fingers and toes.

Ibn Jarir commented that this Ayah commands,

"O believers! Strike every limb and finger on the hands and feet of your (disbelieving) enemies."

Al-Awfi reported, that Ibn Abbas said about the battle of Badr that;

Abu Jahl (the enemy) said, "Do not kill them (the Muslims), but capture them so that you make known to them what they did, their ridiculing your religion and shunning Al-Lat and Al-Uzza (two idols)."

Allah then sent down to the angels,


أَنِّي مَعَكُمْ فَثَبِّتُواْ الَّذِينَ امَنُواْ

سَأُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرَّعْبَ

فَاضْرِبُواْ فَوْقَ الَاعْنَاقِ وَاضْرِبُواْ مِنْهُمْ كُلَّ بَنَانٍ



Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.

In that battle, Abu Jahl (may Allah curse him) was killed along with sixty-nine men. `Uqbah bin Abu Mua`it was captured and then killed, thus bring the death toll of the pagans to seventy

(Tafseer ibn Kathir)


The Misconception :

The verse “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved” is actually the assist given from Allah to Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) during the Battle of Badr by casting terror into the hearts of Quraish Army (the disbelievers). And the verse “so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip” is from Allah to the angels who have been sent down to assist Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to win the Battle of Badr.

Remember : The verses of the Quran was given to Prophet Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) on different occasions and the people around him used to learn those verses which was later compiled into one.

im cool. Im sorry I have just been in these same situations before and I know how these dialogues end. You send me alot of so call contradictions and then I send you alot of contradictions in quran and back and forth it goes on and on.... It never goes nowhere. Its very time consuming and I really dont feel like going through it again. sigh

If you do make a seperate thread to deal with them I will try to answer them one by one if that's what you want and I wont look for online things for you to answer. I am just saying these kinda things drag on and on and are so time consuming and pointless the back and forth. Maybe your new here but in the past ive done these before. Its good for people who can be in computer all day without a job.

Anyway if you make a thread concerning this i will do my best to answer 1 by 1 i promise so we don't mess up this thread.

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