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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Christians Deny Allah

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Posted (edited)

Salaam Aleikum,

When the Arabs were referring to God of Abraham, they always called him by their language as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is because it has always been the same name taught by generations of Arabs that are descended from Prophet Abraham son Ishmael. Jews deny the prophet Muhammad (saws) but they never deny that the Muslims are referring to the same God of Moses and Aaron as theirs. 

I believe that the only reason why Christians do deny Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly in Qur'an reject their belief that Jesus is God. Does this means that Jews do not believe in God of Bible because they don't believe in Jesus as God?

Edited by Abu Nur
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Hello,

To answer your question about Jews... you are right that they do not worship a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as Christians do. This is an essential belief in the Christian faith, so to accept Allah would be denying Jesus... since Jesus is part of the godhead. 

Jesus (Isa) said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6-7

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, e.gardener said:

Hello,

To answer your question about Jews... you are right that they do not worship a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as Christians do. This is an essential belief in the Christian faith, so to accept Allah would be denying Jesus... since Jesus is part of the godhead. 

Jesus (Isa) said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6-7

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

 

So you accept that you don't believe in same God than Jews God?

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On 3/25/2021 at 9:26 PM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

When the Arabs were referring to God of Abraham, they always called him by their language as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is because it has always been the same name taught by generations of Arabs that are descended from Prophet Abraham son Ishmael. Jews deny the prophet Muhammad (saws) but they never deny that the Muslims are referring to the same God of Moses and Aaron as theirs. 

I believe that the only reason why Christians do deny Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly in Qur'an reject their belief that Jesus is God. Does this means that Jews do not believe in God of Bible because they don't believe in Jesus as God?

Wow you have asked a difficult question with no simple answer - I saw it when you first posted the question and have been thinking about how to answer!

There are a number of points and this will only be a inadiquate cursory response.

One point is the word "Allah". -  Jews and Christians whose first language is Arabic and many others who live in Muslim majority countires woud use "Allah" as the word for the divine being.  As you say they see the God talked about and worshiped by Muslim people as the same God - and use the word "Allah"

Who is "Allah"? - The Qur'an and the Christian and Jewish scriptures refer to the one creator of the universe.  The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.  So from a very basic start Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the same God - "Allah"

Do Jews and Christians believe in the same God?  Christians use the Old Testament scripture - the Hebrew Bible - as a basis for faith and conduct just as they do the New Testament - the Injil -   The vast majority of Christians would say that they worship the same God as the Jews.  They find in the Old Testament along with a very strong monotheism indications and allusions to God being able to, in some way, engage with humanity in different ways which are explained and realised in the life of Jesus the Messiah and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Jews, on the other hand, in not accepting the New Testament and Jesus as the Messiah, would reject Christianity, but may not say that Christans don't worship God.  They would say that Christians are misled.

So what about Christians and Muslims?  Who do both of these groups worship?  Do Christians deny Allah?

This is a point of contention between Christians.  Some Christians, mainly those in the west for whom "Allah" is a foreign word, would say Muslims and Christians believe in a different God.  As the OP says this is mainly because of the Muslim teaching on the person of Jesus the Messiah, but also they see some characteristics of Allah in the Qur'an as incompatable with the characteristics of God in the Bible.

Other Christians argue that although there are differences between what we learn about the divine being in the Qur'an and the Bible there are enough similarites to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same being "Allah" / "God" but that Muslims have an incomplete or distorted view of the Divine being.

It is interesting that the Qur'an says Surah 29:46:

O Muslims! Do not argue with the People of the Book except in the best of ways, save with such of them who are unjust; and say: “We believe in that which has been sent down to us and that which has been [sent]“ down to you; our God and your God is One, and ‘to Him we surrender.”

Which seems to affirm that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Let me end with a story.

A family move into a street and start to talk with their new neighbours.  As they chat about other people who live in the street, one person says: "You need to be careful of the person who lives at number 7.  He isn't very nice and would be a bad influence."  A little while later they are talking with another person who says: "Oh, you must get to know the person who lives at number 7.  He is a great person really nice and generous."

What is the most sensible thing for the family to do in this situation?

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They do worship same God. Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in same God than the previous prophets. Yes, Christians do describe him differently, but nonetheless they do worship the same God. Even Sunnis have minor different description of God than Shias, but we all accept that we worship same God. As for our differences, we will be know the absolute truth in Day of Judgement where all of our differences will be solved.

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On 4/27/2021 at 1:12 AM, Abu Nur said:

As for our differences, we will be know the absolute truth in Day of Judgement where all of our differences will be solved.

Yes on the Day of Judgment we will know.  However, waiting till then to know the truth about God / Allah seems to me rather unsettling.  I want to commit my life now to the truth about God / Allah and live for him now and enjoy his presence and walk with him through the ups and downs of life.  To find out on the Day of Judgment is too late.

I told the story at the end of my post because I believe that we don't need to rely on what people say about God (whether Muslims, Jews or Christians) we can know God for ourselves.  To follow the story the family can go to house number 7 and meet the person who lives their and make up their own mind.

Each day I meet with God / Allah.  His Word and His Spirit are my companions.  His salvation and delivernece give me strength, hope and joy.

I don't deny Allah - I affirm his presence in the world and his invitation to enter into a living loving relationship with him through the work of Jesus the Messiah.  We can know the truth now.

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On 3/25/2021 at 2:26 PM, Abu Nur said:

When the Arabs were referring to God of Abraham, they always called him by their language as Allah

Allah is an Arabic word, how can you expect Christians to use Arabic terminology when calling God, God? 
 

On 3/25/2021 at 2:26 PM, Abu Nur said:

believe that the only reason why Christians do deny Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly in Qur'an reject their belief that Jesus is God

This has nothing to do the verse you mentioned. That is a completely separate issue than just what Christians call God. I don’t understand what you’re saying. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Guest What said:

Allah is an Arabic word, how can you expect Christians to use Arabic terminology when calling God, God? 
 

This has nothing to do the verse you mentioned. That is a completely separate issue than just what Christians call God. I don’t understand what you’re saying. 

I don’t think you understood what I meant.

Edited by Abu Nur
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9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Yes on the Day of Judgment we will know.  However, waiting till then to know the truth about God / Allah seems to me rather unsettling.  I want to commit my life now to the truth about God / Allah and live for him now and enjoy his presence and walk with him through the ups and downs of life.  To find out on the Day of Judgment is too late.

I told the story at the end of my post because I believe that we don't need to rely on what people say about God (whether Muslims, Jews or Christians) we can know God for ourselves.  To follow the story the family can go to house number 7 and meet the person who lives their and make up their own mind.

Each day I meet with God / Allah.  His Word and His Spirit are my companions.  His salvation and delivernece give me strength, hope and joy.

I don't deny Allah - I affirm his presence in the world and his invitation to enter into a living loving relationship with him through the work of Jesus the Messiah.  We can know the truth now.

All of us do that. What I mean is that whatever we come to conclusion we will be known who is the right on that day.

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Abu Nur, 

Sorry it took me a while to respond. But yes, that is what I am saying. Do the Jews today and Christians worship the same God? No. It all comes down to Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”  (John 8:39-47)

Jesus is saying here that if someone really worshipped the one true God, they would worship Him (Jesus), because he is of the same nature of God. And he is saying that if anyone rejects him, they reject the one true God. Even if the orthodox Jews, to which he is speaking, do not believe in him -- they are more aligned with Satan. 

 

 

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What is the root meaning of the word God?
According to the best efforts of linguists and researchers, the most common theory is that the root of the present word God is the Sanskrit word hu which means to call upon, invoke, implore. Nonetheless, it is also interesting to note the strong similarity to the ancient Persian word for God which is Khoda (or Khuda).
 

 

The Etymology of the word God | A Polytheistic Lifehttps://apolytheisticlife.com › 2015/12/15 › the-etymolog...

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What is God in simple words?
The definition of a god is an image, person or thing that is worshiped, honored or believed to be all-powerful or the creator and ruler of the universe. An example of a god is Ganesha, a Hindu diety. noun.

God Meaning | Best 23 Definitions of God - Your Dictionaryhttps://www.yourdictionary.com › god
 

 

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Religious usage. In Judaism, HaShem (lit. 'the Name') is used to refer to God, particularly as an epithet for the Tetragrammaton, when avoiding God's more formal title, Adonai ('my master').

Hashem - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Hashem


In casual conversation some Jews, even when not speaking Hebrew, will call God Hashem ( השם‎), which is Hebrew for "the Name" (cf. Leviticus 24:11 and Deuteronomy 28:58).

Names of God in Judaism - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Names_of_God_in_Ju...


The Name of God - Jewish Virtual Libraryhttps://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org › t...

I have often heard Christian sources refer to the Judeo-Christian God as "the nameless God" to contrast our God with the ancient pagan gods. I always found this ...

Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia image.jpeg.a4f894949bc7131f349582bbc3e11c12.jpeg


 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, e.gardener said:

Abu Nur, 

Sorry it took me a while to respond. But yes, that is what I am saying. Do the Jews today and Christians worship the same God? No. It all comes down to Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”  (John 8:39-47)

Jesus is saying here that if someone really worshipped the one true God, they would worship Him (Jesus), because he is of the same nature of God. And he is saying that if anyone rejects him, they reject the one true God. Even if the orthodox Jews, to which he is speaking, do not believe in him -- they are more aligned with Satan. 

 

 

Salaam Aleikum,

You are generalizing to all Jews when this is incorrect. First this is talking about one part of Jews and not all of them. What we call these type of people as munafiq (hypocrisy). As for those Jews who truly follow God of Ibrahim, what do you think they worship? Same God or different God? If you say different, then God of Christianity is not God of Abraham (عليه السلام), Isaac (عليه السلام), Jacob (عليه السلام), Musa (عليه السلام) and Aaron (عليه السلام).   

Quote

Jesus is saying here that if someone really worshipped the one true God, they would worship Him (Jesus), because he is of the same nature of God. And he is saying that if anyone rejects him, they reject the one true God. Even if the orthodox Jews, to which he is speaking, do not believe in him -- they are more aligned with Satan. 

Absolute not what he said in this verse. Jesus (عليه السلام) never claim to worship him. 

Do you think that this make any sense that the Jews who are monotheist in their belief and who have been reciting their works and have understood the principles of God who have been teaching them in Torah; God is not a man (איש : ['iysh]) that He should lie, nor is He a mortal (בן–אדם : [ben-'adam]) etc to expect that God came in form of man (bani adam) and say to them that I am God, worship me?? This is absolutely heresy!

Edited by Abu Nur
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Lev Tahor cult members call themselves as "Jews loyal to Hashem (holy God) " 

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image.jpeg.2eb8d2c347a8b6d911ad09543f5cf082.jpeg  image.png.07fbdc3acaaf183a45dfc4ba4d6f9a5b.png

 

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Jn 13:13, 14, 15

If we call Him "Lord"…

Let us do as Jesus did!

Ro 6:16, 17-note
Slaves of the one you obey
Obey Adonai!

Phil 1:21-note

To live is Christ, to die is gain

Adonai is Master and a master is one who helps order the life of His subject and direct what he should do.

Is God your Adonai, your Master, or are you the "master" of your life (and then you wonder why you get into such "fixes"!)?

Adonai is a Name of God which speaks of relationship. Jehovah's Lordship means He is in total possession of me and I gladly give my unfettered submission to Him as my Lord and my Master.

What area of your life are you holding onto and are unwilling to relinquish to your Master? Your job? Your spouse? Your children? Your "pet" sin? Ask God to open the eyes of your heart to really understand practically what His Lordship means for you personally. He will surely show you.

The truth about Adonai is directly opposed to the modern self centered mindset which in deception and delusion proclaims "I am the master of my own fate, the author of my destiny!" the age old lie pawned off by the devil in Ge 3:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

ALL WILL CONFESS
JESUS AS ADONAI
Php 2:9, 10, 11-note

One day every tongue will acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus Christ regardless of whether they did so during their time on earth

https://www.preceptaustin.org/adonai-lord-the_name_of_god

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What is Hashem? | My Jewish Learninghttps://www.myjewishlearning.com › h...

Hashem is a Hebrew term for God. Literally ... When reading Torah, we generally substitute the word Adonai for the four letter un-pronounceable name of God.
 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2021 at 2:12 AM, Abu Nur said:

They do worship same God.

This is one thing that I have never completely understood. Mere proclamation of belief/worship does not in itself constitute belief/worship. Trinitarian Christians may claim to believe in and worship the same Deity as the orthodox Jews and Muslims, but in practice they attribute polytheistic teachings and core doctrines to Prophet Jesus. So I do not see how the Qur’ān can consider Christians to be any different from, say, polytheistic Hindus. The Trinitarian Christians believe and claim that Prophet Jesus negated the Torah and formed part of a divine Trinity. That not only goes against the central tenet, tawhid, of both orthodox Judaism and Islam, but also falsely attributes Hellenistic and/or polytheistic viewpoints to Prophet Jesus, such as the claim that circumcision, dietary strictures, etc. were no longer necessary, and that faith replaced and/or stood in opposition to deeds. I really do not understand why Islam affords protection to Trinitarian Christians (as part of Ahl’ al-Kitāb) but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarian Christians are unquestionably polytheistic in both belief and practice. In reality they do worship a different Deity from that of the orthodox Jews and Muslims.

Edited by Northwest
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5 hours ago, Northwest said:

This is one thing that I have never completely understood. Mere proclamation of belief/worship does not in itself constitute belief/worship. Trinitarian Christians may claim to believe in and worship the same Deity as the orthodox Jews and Muslims, but in practice they attribute polytheistic teachings and core doctrines to Prophet Jesus. So I do not see how the Qur’ān can consider Christians to be any different from, say, polytheistic Hindus. The Trinitarian Christians believe and claim that Prophet Jesus negated the Torah and formed part of a divine Trinity. That not only goes against the central tenet, tawhid, of both orthodox Judaism and Islam, but also falsely attributes Hellenistic and/or polytheistic viewpoints to Prophet Jesus, such as the claim that circumcision, dietary strictures, etc. were no longer necessary, and that faith replaced and/or stood in opposition to deeds. I really do not understand why Islam affords protection to Trinitarian Christians (as part of Ahl’ al-Kitāb) but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarian Christians are unquestionably polytheistic in both belief and practice. In reality they do worship a different Deity from that of the orthodox Jews and Muslims.

I'm sorry but I found your post quite hurtful.  It is full of unsupported false claims, geralizations and pejorative statements.

Jesus the Messiah specifically said he had come to fulfil the Torah.  There is no polytheism in Christianity it is based on the worship and service of one God.  The teaching of the Bible is clear that faith and works both come together in the salvation and acceptence God provides.  The teaching of the trinity within the Christian church has no links to polythesim or Hellenistic ideas and emerged as strict momothisits came to terms with the person and work of Jesus the Messiah and the empowering and indwelling of the Holy Spirit while they continued to defend Monotheistic faith.

In reality as I stated in my previous post (did you read it?) Jews, Muslims and Christians worship and seek to follow the same God (The one creator, The God of Abraham who has revealed himself through the words of the prophets) but have different understandings of how he acts and what he expects.

Thank you for explaining your point of view.

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The Etymology of the word God

I think this is an unhelpful path to go down.  The words used for "God" in every language have various and often disputed derivations.  The important thing is not where did the word come from, but who do the people who use it understand it to describe.

I cannot tell someone they are worshiping a false god just because of the word they use.  I need to listen to them first as they talk about their understanding of thier diety and as I observe their devotion.  Only then will I be able to make a comment about their use of the word.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sorry but I found your post quite hurtful.

Unfortunately, a sincere concern for the Truth does not respect one’s personal feelings or desire for a PC “safe space.” This principle applies universally.

Quote

Jesus the Messiah specifically said he had come to fulfil the Torah.

Not quite. He said he came to confirm the Torah and bid his disciples to follow the 613 mitzvot (not merely the Ten Commandments or the Torah!) as laid down by the scribes and Pharisees, but without hypocrisy.

From the King James Bible:

Matthew 5:18–20, quoting Prophet Jesus himself: “‘For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so (is this a reference to Paul?), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.’”

Matthew 10:5, quoting Prophet Jesus himself: “‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’”

Matthew 23:2–3, quoting Prophet Jesus himself: “‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;’”

Acts 21:20, quoting the emissaries of James the Just and “the Way” sect: “‘Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews are there which believe; and they are all zealous of the Law: And they are informed of thee (Paul), that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the (Jewish) customs.’”

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The teaching of the trinity within the Christian church has no links...

Mark 10:18, quoting Prophet Jesus himself: “‘Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.’”

Prophet Jesus is pro-Jewish, and only argues against the scribes and Pharisees from a pro-Jewish standpoint, not Paul’s anti-Semitic, polytheistic one. So Prophet Jesus’ criticism of the scribes and Pharisees is from a very pro-scribal, pro-Pharisaic viewpoint, and nowhere does Prophet Jesus contest the right of the scribes and Pharisees to lay down the Law before the lay masses. Prophet Jesus commands his followers to observe all the minutiae of the Law, from greatest to least, including the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and the 613 mitzvot. Orthodox Islam, too, is very pro-Jewish, praises the Law and the Gospel (which validates and upholds the Law), and often verifies quite a bit of Jewish material from the Mishnah and the Gemara, both of which constitute Talmudic material. Trinitarian Christianity is based on Hellenistic polytheism. It could not win a debate, but could only kill its way to power (hegemony).

Edited by Northwest
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16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The words used for "God" in every language have various and often disputed derivations.  The important thing is not where did the word come from, but who do the people who use it understand it to describe.

Hi the definition  of name is clear which has defined  clearly since long time ago but everyone  has differnt understanding & feeling about God which previously Christian understanding   is based on a mixture  of  objection of Jewish definition  & Pauline  teachings  not prophet Isa (as)[Jesus] teachings which now christanity has added objecting  of Islamic definition  to it recently because  of shaking trinity doctrine fundementals  by Islamic definition  which Jews had no plan for refuting Trinity because it was the most strong barrier for not absorbing Jews to Christanity  but by refuting it by muslims is main tool for absorbing  christians into Islam so Christians are defending  from it by any mean for stopping  of absorbing Christians into Islam. 

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi the definition  of name is clear which has defined  clearly since long time ago but everyone  has differnt understanding & feeling about God which previously Christian understanding   is based on a mixture  of  objection of Jewish definition  & Pauline  teachings  not prophet Isa (as)[Jesus] teachings which now christanity has added objecting  of Islamic definition  to it recently because  of shaking trinity doctrine fundementals  by Islamic definition  which Jews had no plan for refuting Trinity because it was the most strong barrier for not absorbing Jews to Christanity  but by refuting it by muslims is main tool for absorbing  christians into Islam so Christians are defending  from it by any mean for stopping  of absorbing Christians into Islam. 

We define the word God/Allah/Theos/Deus/Khodaa/Yahwh etc etc as the divine being. When a person uses the word they are familiar with in their own language, a concept or idea forms in their mind.  This concept derives from the teaching they have recieved and their experience of life and engagenment with the divine being.

The taught Christian understanding of the divine being derives from the revilation of God to the Jewish people in the Old Testament.  It is not an objection to Jewish teaching.  It is expanded through engagement with the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah and his death, resurrection and assenssion.  Paul and Jesus say the same things about God.  They both confirm God's oneness and his revelation through the Father, Son and Spirit.

You are correct that the doctrine of the Trinity is a problem for many people, however when it is explained and more importantly experienced, it is the most amazing truth that opens the way to a personal living and loving relationship with the almighty creator of the universe. This relationship is experienced through the forgivness of sins; the covering of our shame; and the replacement of fear by confidence.  God in all his fullness comes and lives in those in his family and at the same time they live in him and enjoy the privilages of children of God.  They know freedom, value and experience peace with God and rest in his presence.

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23 hours ago, Northwest said:

Unfortunately, a sincere concern for the Truth does not respect one’s personal feelings or desire for a PC “safe space.” This principle applies universally.

Thank you for your response.  The great thing about Truth is that it is a person not a cold impersonal attack on another individual.  Jesus the Messiah said I am the Truth.  He also said that the truth will set you free.

The points in your post are based on out dated and discredited arguments.  They are interpretations of the teachings of the New Testament taken out of context and without any understanding of the metanarrative of the teachings of the Bible as a whole. 

Your focus on the Law is interesting.  I am grateful that Jesus did fulfill the law and that his Spirit in me helps me each day to live a live that pleases God.  God looks for purity and rightiousness not strict and regulated law abidence..  I read these verses today found in Colossians Chapter 3

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

I find this standard liberating - true freedom - because it is not prescribed by law but empowered by God's transforming power.

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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Thank you for your response.  The great thing about Truth is that it is a person not a cold impersonal attack on another individual.

Your post largely consists of talking points and regurgitates the message of the local church or movement you belong to. I myself have heard them countless times previously, having engaged with evangelicals. I would like to see actual engagement with the points I brought up. Unfortunately, too many “religious” people, even many Muslims, can only restate, not employ critical analysis. I myself am not at this time committed to any particular faith, but I have done my own research on history, and the “official” narrative of Trinitarian orthodoxy simply contradicts the known Jewish (or “legalistic”) tendencies of Prophet Jesus. The fact that these tendencies still show up in the Pauline-edited New Testament shows that the censors failed to completely obliterate this hard reality. You are viewing Prophet Jesus’ message through Paul’s claims. Remove Paul—and Pauline interpolation, including the Trinitarian Church Fathers’—and the end result is a very Jewish (“legalistic” or works-centred) Prophet Jesus. A lot of Trinitarians harbour a visceral antisemitism rooted in a rebellious desire to go their own way rather than follow (the) God’s Law, which they deem “legalism.”

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Your focus on the Law is interesting.  I am grateful that Jesus did fullfil the Law and that his Spirit in me helps me each day to live a live that pleases God. God looks for purity and righteousness, not strict and regulated Law-abidance...

I find this standard liberating - true freedom - because it is not prescribed by law but empowered by God's transforming power.

One’s personal desires are irrelevant to the manner in which the Deity designed and structured the universe. What you find “liberating” may be quite hateful to (the) God—whether theoretically or actually. The problem with Trinitarianism is that it is egocentric rather than theocentric. Note how many times you use the word “I” and sundry other self-references when speaking of divine Truth and/or related matters thereof. In my view the best of religion is theocentric and challenges rather than coddles the ego. Religion is not supposed to be an ego-stroking, politically correct “safe space” pandering to and confirming one’s own subjective biases. Rednecks and know-nothings (not that you need be either of those) need not apply to the school of monotheism. Real knowledge can only be gained through objectivity and struggle. Western, white Christians have always been hostile to Judaeo-Islamic “legalism,” even though “legalistic” Judaeo-Islamic civilisation yielded the Golden Age of Andalusia, whereas Trinitarian “freedom” spawned the European Dark Ages (and today’s postmodern morass). Most of Western science was borrowed from “legalistic” Judaeo-Islamic civilisation. The West rests on the shoulders of “legalistic” giants, yet returns the favour with pogroms and crusades. (Incidentally, this is why I am more than a bit skeptical of Iran’s denying and/or downplaying the Shoah: given Christendom’s visceral antipathy toward orthodox Judaism and Islam, the Shoah is perfectly intelligible a response, and the Trinitarians have proven quite capable of murdering millions. The fact that the Qur’ān treats Trinitarian Christians more favourably than Jews is but one reason as to why I am not entirely convinced of Islam at this time, given that orthodox Islam has had a far more cordial relationship with orthodox Judaism than with Trinitarian Christendom.)

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On 5/1/2021 at 11:28 AM, Northwest said:

This is one thing that I have never completely understood. Mere proclamation of belief/worship does not in itself constitute belief/worship. Trinitarian Christians may claim to believe in and worship the same Deity as the orthodox Jews and Muslims, but in practice they attribute polytheistic teachings and core doctrines to Prophet Jesus. So I do not see how the Qur’ān can consider Christians to be any different from, say, polytheistic Hindus. The Trinitarian Christians believe and claim that Prophet Jesus negated the Torah and formed part of a divine Trinity. That not only goes against the central tenet, tawhid, of both orthodox Judaism and Islam, but also falsely attributes Hellenistic and/or polytheistic viewpoints to Prophet Jesus, such as the claim that circumcision, dietary strictures, etc. were no longer necessary, and that faith replaced and/or stood in opposition to deeds. I really do not understand why Islam affords protection to Trinitarian Christians (as part of Ahl’ al-Kitāb) but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarian Christians are unquestionably polytheistic in both belief and practice. In reality they do worship a different Deity from that of the orthodox Jews and Muslims.

Because they confess and believe in Abrahamic God and the torah. What they do rest is interpretations of their own. Quran came to fix all their wrong thinking.

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17 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Because they confess and believe in Abrahamic God and the torah. What they do rest is interpretations of their own.

Confession is either an expression of heartfelt belief or a denial (lie). Anyone can “confess” to anything. The Trinitarians’ belief system contradicts the central tenets of monotheism, including Prophet Jesus’ own beliefs. How can a Trinitarian be considered better than a Hindu polytheist? I would like a better, more detailed clarification as to why Islam treats Trinitarian Christians as Ahl’ al-Kitāb but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarianism derives, in part, from the shared polytheistic beliefs that are also common to Hindus, as evidenced by the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, with roles analogous to those played by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Other than a formal claim to the Abrahamic tradition, how does a Christian Trinitarian differ from a Hindu Trinitarian? Why is one considered a protected species and not the other?

Quote

Quran came to fix all their wrong thinking.

Yes, that is obviously true, but why are they considered a protected species and not, say, Hindus, given similarly Trinitarian viewpoints?

Edited by Northwest
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2 hours ago, Northwest said:

Confession is either an expression of heartfelt belief or a denial (lie). Anyone can “confess” to anything. The Trinitarians’ belief system contradicts the central tenets of monotheism, including Prophet Jesus’ own beliefs. How can a Trinitarian be considered better than a Hindu polytheist? I would like a better, more detailed clarification as to why Islam treats Trinitarian Christians as Ahl’ al-Kitāb but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarianism derives, in part, from the shared polytheistic beliefs that are also common to Hindus, as evidenced by the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, with roles analogous to those played by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Other than a formal claim to the Abrahamic tradition, how does a Christian Trinitarian differ from a Hindu Trinitarian? Why is one considered a protected species and not the other?

Yes, that is obviously true, but why are they considered a protected species and not, say, Hindus, given similarly Trinitarian viewpoints?

The reason why they have acknowledgment and are called people of the book is because of the covenants that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made with them:

"And of those who say: 'We are Christians' We did take their covenant, but they (also like Israelites) have neglected a part of what they were admonished with. Therefore We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection; and soon Allah will inform them of what they have been doing."  Al-Ma'idah, Verse 14

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11 hours ago, Northwest said:

why Islam treats Trinitarian Christians as Ahl’ al-Kitāb but not polytheistic Hindus, given that Trinitarianism derives, in part, from the shared polytheistic beliefs that are also common to Hindus, as evidenced by the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, with roles analogous to those played by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Other than a formal claim to the Abrahamic tradition, how does a Christian Trinitarian differ from a Hindu Trinitarian? Why is one considered a protected species and not the other?

Hi original core belief of all Christian sects based on Injeel which there is traces of divine revelation in It but intepretation & translations of it affected by pagan Ideas as you mentioned similarity of it to Hindu trinity because the idea of trinity in pagan religions roots back to inovation of Satan in front of monotheism by different names like Hinduism in India or Droid belief of celtics & paganism of Greece  & Mithraism of Rome & religion of egypt before Islam which all of them have same core of praying Satan & evil jeans and Trinity in opposition of worshiping one & only real creator .

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On 5/2/2021 at 6:44 PM, Northwest said:

the “official” narrative of Trinitarian orthodoxy simply contradicts the known Jewish (or “legalistic”) tendencies of Prophet Jesus. The fact that these tendencies still show up in the Pauline-edited New Testament shows that the censors failed to completely obliterate this hard reality. You are viewing Prophet Jesus’ message through Paul’s claims. Remove Paul—and Pauline interpolation, including the Trinitarian Church Fathers’—and the end result is a very Jewish (“legalistic” or works-centred) Prophet Jesus. A lot of Trinitarians harbour a visceral antisemitism rooted in a rebellious desire to go their own way rather than follow (the) God’s Law, which they deem “legalism.”

I get the impression from what you write here that you have invented your own religion or at least understanding of something - I'm not sure what it is?

The teachings of Jesus and Paul are interwoven and complimentary.  Both are very clear that God is looking for heart change not empty religious practice.  Why should we remove the teachings and perspectives of people who knew eyewitneses to the life and teachings of Jesus the Messiah?  It is impossible to do what you are suggesting and remove certain things from the picture we have of Jesus.  You are choosing to remove things so what is left suits your own argument.  Why not take what we have had passed down to us and treat it as authentic and respond to it as such?

On 5/2/2021 at 6:44 PM, Northwest said:

What you find “liberating” may be quite hateful to (the) God—whether theoretically or actually.

I think you didn't read what I wrote.  I am liberated to live a life empowered by God himself.  The Holy Spirit of God lives in me directing and strengthening me to live a life that brings glory to God by doing the things that reflect his charater.  Here is a discription of the freedom that God gives as he works in those who follow him.  Do you think the positive practices described in the last part are hateful to God?  Colossians chapter 3

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

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On 3/25/2021 at 9:26 PM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

When the Arabs were referring to God of Abraham, they always called him by their language as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is because it has always been the same name taught by generations of Arabs that are descended from Prophet Abraham son Ishmael. Jews deny the prophet Muhammad (saws) but they never deny that the Muslims are referring to the same God of Moses and Aaron as theirs. 

I believe that the only reason why Christians do deny Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly in Qur'an reject their belief that Jesus is God. Does this means that Jews do not believe in God of Bible because they don't believe in Jesus as God?

 

This is unfair to Christians.  The Catholic Church clearly teaches that Muslims worship the same God as they do. They are the largest Christian group. A lot of the Eastern Orthodox consider Christians Islam to be the worst Christian heresy, which is an old Christian idea, which again means that they believe that Muslims worship the same God as they do. Also Islam is closer to Christianity than Rabbinic Judaism is so if a Christian is going to say that Muslims do not worship the same God if they are going to be rational than they have to say the same for Rabbinic Judaism. 

However there are a lot of nutters on the internet who use Christianity as others on the internet use Islam as a mask for their personal hatreds, pride, etc, etc and of course contemporary politics and political manipulations also enter into things especially where North Americans are concerned. 

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On 5/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Northwest said:

How can a Trinitarian be considered better than a Hindu polytheist?

 

On 5/2/2021 at 1:44 PM, Northwest said:

The fact that the Qur’ān treats Trinitarian Christians more favourably than Jews is but one reason as to why I am not entirely convinced of Islam at this time

Qurʼān describes Jews, Christians AND *SABIANS* as Ahlul-Kitāb, (i.e. "People of the Book") in the first instance...use of the phrase was later applied to adherents of non-Semitic and Gnostic faiths like Zoroastrians, Samaritans, Mandeans, Buddhists and followers of monotheistic Indian religions (i.e. Sikhs)...many scholars classified Hindus as 'People of the Book' following the Islamic conquest of India...many jurists and rulers and commoners didn't treat Hindus as pagans or idol-worshipers....they learned that Hinduism possesses scripture and (like Christianity) disguises a hidden core monotheism underneath a dazzling display of polytheism, pantheism, pandeism, etc...Jews are doctrinally and theologically more sound than the Christians no doubt...but the Jews (as a group as a whole) suffered (and continue to suffer) from spiritual diseases of the heart...they were notorious for killing the prophets...(i.e. "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah whom you murdered between the temple and the altar") Matthew 23 : 35...and emulating the pagan conquering nations that subjugated and humiliated them throughout the millennia...I think the Qurʼān is suggesting that the Christian heart is purer than the Jew (generally speaking) despite the associationism....probably due to the extremely strong emphasis on love...these are traits that develop over time...there are deep-rooted sociological reasons for the formation of these group tendencies (whether good or bad) I'm sure...and remember that Qurʼān was referring to Middle Eastern and North African / Horn of Africa Christianity when the verse was originally revealed..."And you will certainly find that the people most hostile against the believers (i.e. Muslims) are the Jews and the ones who ascribe partners to Allah. You will certainly find that the closest of them in love and friendship with the believers are those who proclaim, “We are Christians.” That is because among them there are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant." Al-Ma'idah 82

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12 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

 

..Jews are doctrinally and theologically more sound than the Christians no doubt...but the Jews (as a group as a whole) suffered (and continue to suffer) from spiritual diseases of the heart...

I understand well Muslim objections to the Trinity but I will say that understandings of what that means vary among Christians and some are  much problematic to strict Islamic Monotheism than others. I can understand why a Muslim would say that a Dor Daim Jew is more Theologically sound than Christians, but what about the Kabbalah which goes often into straight forward Polytheism? The Ten Sefirot- in some, not all, understandings of it by Jews things go way beyond Monotheism in ways the worst understandings of the Trinity do not. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot

 

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@Abu Nur, I don't necessarily agree with past and present scholars who ruled that Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists etc. to be included in the 'People of the Book' category...personally I'm on the fence on the issue...there's compelling arguments on both sides...just letting @Northwestknow this opinion indeed exists

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4 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Abu Nur, I don't necessarily agree with past and present scholars who ruled that Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists etc. to be included in the 'People of the Book' category...personally I'm on the fence on the issue...there's compelling arguments on both sides...just letting @Northwestknow this opinion indeed exists

The reason why I disagreed is because we know with certainty that people of the book are referring exactly the Jews and Christians who were present and addressed in Medina. 

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On 4/30/2021 at 11:23 PM, e.gardener said:

Abu Nur, 

Sorry it took me a while to respond. But yes, that is what I am saying. Do the Jews today and Christians worship the same God? No. It all comes down to Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”  (John 8:39-47)

Jesus is saying here that if someone really worshipped the one true God, they would worship Him (Jesus), because he is of the same nature of God. And he is saying that if anyone rejects him, they reject the one true God. Even if the orthodox Jews, to which he is speaking, do not believe in him -- they are more aligned with Satan. 

 

 

I have been curious for the longest time how the Christians who actually read their bible come to the conclusion God = Jesus. Now I know. It's literal blindness.
Jesus is saying God sent me, the Christians say oh so you are God. No, God sent me, I have no power save what God permits me. Oh so you are God. No... 

Imagine I flew over to Russia and said "Biden sent me" and they replied "Oh, nice to meet you Biden". I reply, "I did not come from my own accord, I am not Biden, Biden sent me", and they reply "great, Mr. Biden, when are you going to order your troops to withdraw?"  ...........

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word."

Worth watching in entirety but my point @ 5:14

"I say what's wrong with you people... I want to know whether you understand English... The man is telling you he is not, and you say no he is!"

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The reason why I disagreed is because we know with certainty that people of the book are referring exactly the Jews and Christians who were present and addressed in Medina. 

Jews and Christians and al-Ṣābiʼūn...Sabians are mentioned three times in the Qurʼān as a 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians...the true identity of the Sabians/Sabaeans still remains an unsolved mystery...some say they were "star worshippers", others say they were the descendants of the original disciples of John The Baptist (peace be upon him) and so-on and so-on...when Islam began to expand into adjacent lands...Muslims came into contact with peoples who possessed holy writings and had complex religious cosmologies, intricate spiritually-based philosophies and worldviews...Muslim scholars made a distinction between peoples who were pagan or animist or those whose religions were not based on divine revelation on the one hand...and those who were possessors of divine books on the other...if the Qurʼān was revealed in Persia, Iraq, The Levant, China or India (instead of Arabia) it would have cited Zoroastrians, Elcesaites, Mandaeans, Jains, Buddhists, Samaritans etc. as examples of Ahlul-Kitāb.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, dragonxx said:

I have been curious for the longest time how the Christians who actually read their bible come to the conclusion God = Jesus. Now I know. It's literal blindness.
Jesus is saying God sent me, the Christians say oh so you are God. No, God sent me, I have no power save what God permits me. Oh so you are God. No... 

Imagine I flew over to Russia and said "Biden sent me" and they replied "Oh, nice to meet you Biden". I reply, "I did not come from my own accord, I am not Biden, Biden sent me", and they reply "great, Mr. Biden, when are you going to order your troops to withdraw?"

Yes, this is hilarious but very true...LOL

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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12 hours ago, Celtic Twilight said:

I understand well Muslim objections to the Trinity but I will say that understandings of what that means vary among Christians and some are  much problematic to strict Islamic Monotheism than others. I can understand why a Muslim would say that a Dor Daim Jew is more Theologically sound than Christians, but what about the Kabbalah which goes often into straight forward Polytheism? The Ten Sefirot- in some, not all, understandings of it by Jews things go way beyond Monotheism in ways the worst understandings of the Trinity do not. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot

 

Hi , We just consider the Jew theology which based on Torah which existance  of it approved  in holy Quran but in other hand in Quran said that the Jew rabbis has sold their faith to worldly  matters also after loosing or hiding original Torah the rabbis has rewriten it based on orals so as in Quran has mentioned  , They were moving their tongue like they were saying word of God but they has mixed their false belief with remaining  parts  of original  Torah which also Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in his debate with most knowledgeable  Rabbi on his time based on some parts of Sefirot(s) for proving prophecy  of coming of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) from text of Sefirots which that part approved  by the Rabbi as original part of sayings of prophet  Musa/Muses  (عليه السلام) but in other hand we deny book of Zohar & Kabalah as satanic innovations in Judaism & as similar fashion current theology  of Christians  as innovation of Paul which he has mixed false beliefs & innovations  with remaining  part of Bible/Injeel but  because Christians  in contrast to Jews have followed  it sincerely  but with ignorance which also they didn't commit great sins like killing  of prophets & disobeying  God likewise Jews which by contrast  with pride & arrogance Jews & their enmity with real  belivers  , Christians  have been humble people  as has been mentioned in Quran which their humbleness  with real belivers has been a key factor for introducing  them as friends  of muslims.

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