I'm honestly convinced that most people leave Islam because of Islamophobia

[BleedKnee]

Bit of a Rant: 

Not saying that's the case for people here. I know for myself, when I was an atheist (and later a deist), I was so just because I didn't think God existed or that if He did, there wouldn't be revelations and prophecies and so forth. Yet most people I've met IRL and see online that leave Islam do so for incredible superficial reasons. They leave because Islam looks pretty bad to most outsiders, and they want to be at the kool kids table. So everyone has this kind of internalized islamophobia. 

They adopt belief systems and philosophies that are more palatable depending where in the world they live in, or what particular culture they fetishize (primarily Western culture). Not because they had serious rational inquiry into the claims by the religion, and genuinely questioned principles like Tawhid, Judgement Day, Prophethood, etc. 

It's kind of frustrating. I don't get into arguments about this stuff now, but when I was young I used to. And I've grown up really not respecting folks that jump ship just because the ship doesn't look pretty from the outside. By extension of this, there's usually a rejection of the cultural heritage as well and that just screams brown Uncle Tom to me honestly. Like, Ayan Hirsi Ali and her ilk doesn't seem like an exception to former Muslims, but the rule. 

[Guest guest]

Submission is true faith, this lady Ayan Hirsi Ali is manifesting that she didn't submit, it is about her and her rights, although in Islam every woman has more rights than men,, but unless people really want to understand, they may be taken with the wind by the many forces that are at play,,,, enemies are spending $$$$$$$'s to discredit Islam, they are bound to have some success in their aims..

We all have to be very careful to hold on to whatever faith we have in these times..   

[F.M]

actually yes it happens all thanks to the extremiest kuffar people trying to call themselves Muslims.. if they didnt exist only the really bad ( satan and his folllowers) would hate islam.

also not forget the history of soo called Muslims inst really good and caused lots people to get mad at Islam. 

my mom also used to say before she reverted that islam was really disgusted by all the people and she had to fight to herself to stop thinking islam isnt bad. 

 I have  a huge respect towards the non muslims who still belief islam in general isnt bad but there are people who mess up everything. Such people deserve the highest respect in my opinion. Cause even I as a born shia am totally disgusted about what is happening all in the name of islam. and such muslims are actaully getting followed and respected. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by F.M

[guest 2025]

Don't mind if I rant too brother. They leave because they don't like rules that prevent them from doing whatever they wish. They can delude themselves, but the vast majority of exmuslims leave for incredibly shallow reasons like that and not due to intellectual disagreement or doubt. They'd rather have 1$ now instead of wait a couple minutes and receive $100000000000. And they think like a child who believes that a parent who doesn't let their children eat nothing buy candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner plus let them watch cartoons until 4am and let them be absent from school 7 out of the 9 months is oppressive and not respecting their right to freedom. I (almost) CANNOT wait until the Imam comes and force-feeds the world a big slice of humble pie.

Edited March 20, 2021 by guest 2025

[Caroling]

People leave islam because of trauma and religious abuse, mostly, and some leave because they want to do whatever they want. I think it’s unfair to judge people who leave Islam, unless they’re openly doing Haram and proud about it to garner attention, a lot of people who leave would have benefited from intense therapy. They are often emotionally wounded people and want to do the right thing, but for one reason or another, people abuse them and it leaves a very bad impression of Islam in their psyche. 

[guest 2025]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:07 AM, Caroling said:

People leave islam because of trauma and religious abuse, mostly, and some leave because they want to do whatever they want. I think it’s unfair to judge people who leave Islam, unless they’re openly doing Haram and proud about it to garner attention, a lot of people who leave would have benefited from intense therapy. They are often emotionally wounded people and want to do the right thing, but for one reason or another, people abuse them and it leaves a very bad impression of Islam in their psyche. 

The thing about a lot of them is that they make up trauma and abuse stories to feel better about themselves. Things like "My parents FORCED me to wear hijab and STARVED me on the month of Ramadan. I was so OPPRESSED that my dad wouldn't let me do normal girl things like sleepover at friends, wear lipstick and nailpolish, or even something as totally normal as having a boyfriend!" Of course they're going to come up with better stories than that (a lot don't), but that is what I've seen. These people didn't leave because of a mental illness, they have a mental illness because they left. Even non-muslims have pointed out that there is a difference in behavior between exmuslims and exchristian/jews/hindus/buddhists. 

Not disagreeing with you just took the chance to rant more lol

[theEndIsNear]

If someone leaves islam cause of blame of others they would leave anything and anyone under small pressure , they are weak spineless gutless  people and nobody can help them they are what the west calls conformists 

Edited March 21, 2021 by theEndIsNear

[Abu_Zahra]

It may indeed be one of the reasons but there are others that are quite significant as well.

In general I think a lack of knowledge and understanding of islam by the masses has resulted in a poor 'transmittal' of religion from one generation to the next, sometimes resulting in apostasy.

There is a sense of disillusion among younger people because they have not really been given the right image of the religion. Either people didn't practice what they preached, or they preached falsehood in the name of Islam. Either way the result is rarely good. 

[313_Waiter]

I think the main cause is competing ideologies. People dogmatically associate themselves with (or are socialised into accepting) ideologies like feminism, lgbtq and liberalism (sometimes without even knowing). When they realise Islam is not compatible with aspects of these ideologies they leave the religion.

 

 

[Reza]

For some, religion is nothing more than a lifestyle brand and social identity, which they reject because other brands/identities are more appealing or advantageous to their goals or desires.

There’s no deep theological inquiry here. Furthermore, “believing in God and being a good person” while rejecting religious practice is not seen as problematic, and is considered a valid take. 

[hasanhh]

"lnconvenience" is a factor, too.

Absence of social pressure allows the marginal 'believer' to follow suggestions.

My guesstimate is about a third do not really have true/truer belief.

[313_Waiter]

47 minutes ago, Reza said:

For some, religion is nothing more than a lifestyle brand and social identity, which they reject because other brands/identities are more appealing or advantageous to their goals or desires.

There’s no deep theological inquiry here

Agreed. Contrarily, in the case of religious people I think they see their faith as rationally true and also have emotional attachments to different aspects of it. I think that rational truths are not always stable as they can be challenged.

I have heard a scholar describe a level of knowing that is beyond even rational truths. He described it as “seeing” God with the heart (a terminology heavily used within Islam in general and in Sufism in particular). I wonder how one could reach this level. Perhaps it is through Taqwa and spiritual practice— avoiding sins, salah, munajāt, du’a, mustahab / Sunnah acts, doing things for the sake of Allah and very importantly, development of character.

Quote

Eyes cannot see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief. He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous. He is far from them but not (physically) separate. He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel low before His greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him.

لاَ تُدْرِكُهُ الْعُيُونُ بِمُشَاهَدَةِ الْعِيَانِ، وَلكِنْ تُدْرِكُهُ الْقُلُوبُ بِحَقَائِقِ الاْيمَانِ، قَرِيبٌ مِنَ الاْشْيَاءِ غَيْرُ مُلاَمِس، بَعِيدٌ مِنْهَا غَيْرُ مُبَايِن، مُتَكَلِّمٌ بِلاَ رَوِيَّة، مُرِيدٌ بِلاَ هِمَّة، صَانِعٌ لاَ بِجَارِحَة، لَطِيفٌ لاَ يُوصَفُ بِالْخَفَاءِ، كَبِيرٌ لاَ يُوصَفُ بِالْجَفَاءِ، بَصِيرٌ لاَ يُوصَفُ بِالْحَاسَّةِ، رَحِيمٌ لاَ يُوصَفُ بِالرِّقَّةِ، تَعْنُو الْوُجُوهُ لِعَظَمَتِهِ، وَتَجِبُ الْقُلُوبُ مِنْ مَخَافَتِهِ.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by 313_Waiter

[313_Waiter]

14 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

My guesstimate is about a third do not really have true/truer belief.

How would you characterise true belief? It is hard to determine ones level of Imaan.

Also I think 1/3rd is very good considering we are close to the end times and many minor signs have come true (e.g. countries have only began legalising homosexual marriage/relations - a sign of the end times - in the last decade or so)

Edited March 22, 2021 by 313_Waiter

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

How would you characterise true belief? It is hard to determine ones level of Imaan.

Sincerity in following and obeying God. Only God know the Imaan of the person.

[hasanhh]

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

How would you characterise true belief?

Any level of conviction that the God of Noah, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is Real.

For example, a minimum level would be what the Deists said.

[hasanhh]

2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Sincerity in following and obeying God. Only God know the Imaan of the person.

Not everyone will approximate the lbrahim -(عليه السلام). level of conviction.

Edited March 22, 2021 by hasanhh
spelin'

[AbdusSibtayn]

On the contrary, I would argue that most people leave because they can't reconcile Islamic tenets with the worldview of secular liberalism. Islam is not merely a cluster of beliefs; it is an all-encompassing worldview unto itself. It is not the sun, the moon or a star which one can see; it is the light itself through which one sees everything else.

When worldviews clash, it is either the hubb al-dunya that wins, or the Godwariness and the consciousness of Aakhirah. Most of those who claim to be "ex-Muslims" were never "Muslims" to begin with. They signed up for an 'association' whose aesthetics appealed to them, without understanding what it entails. And when they see that there is more to Islam than aesthetics, which is at odds with their worldview, they leave.

[hasanhh]

EEhhhhhhh

1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

worldview of secular liberalism

lf it is secular, it is not a religion. Don't listen to those screwball evilgelicals.

1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Islam is not merely a cluster of beliefs;

lsIam is 0ne belief. 

[Reza]

4 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

lf it is secular, it is not a religion. Don't listen to those screwball evilgelicals.

This is playing semantics. Islam addresses human affairs, and liberal secularism addresses human affairs. So that's the plane of comparison being made. 

The Arabic word "din" is a totality not probably represented by the English word "religion", so in my view, English words like "ideology", "religion", and "belief" are synonymous with one another, and attempts to delineate them is arbitrary and not helpful. 

I'll await the classic hasanhh disagree reaction. I'm ready for it. 

[rkazmi33]

I have read so many hadiths about how it will be extremely hard to retain faith in the end of times. Instead of judging people, who are losing faith, you all should really question that why is it so easy for all of you to remain faithful. Those people might be going through some hard tests and no one is immune from tests. You all think that just because you are men, or successful, you feel invincible and you think you will never be tested. Don't be so over confident. You all admit that we are going through end of times, and there are so many hadiths that it will be hard to keep your faith in end of times. I am more worried about all of you and I am wondering if you all are hypocrites.  Spiritual abuse is the most dangerous form of abuse and it's happening a lot. There is a whole website about spiritual abuse insheikhsclothing.com. If you are really sincere about understanding ex-muslims, then go to this website and read instead of making assumptions and judging people. Islam tells us that momins remain between hope and fear. You all seem like you only have hope and too much hope. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by rkazmi33

[hasanhh]

58 minutes ago, Reza said:

I'll await the classic hasanhh disagree reaction. I'm ready for it. 

You  Got  lt !

 

[hasanhh]

1 hour ago, Reza said:

This is playing semantics. No, in this case claiming 'semantics' is a cop-out.

Islam addresses human affairs, Correct, but not all.

and liberal secularism addresses human affairs. Predominantly. Claims to have 'the answer' to everything.

So that's the plane of comparison being made. Like an apple to a banana.

The Arabic word "din" is a totality not probably represented by the English word "religion", so in my view, English words like "ideology", "religion", and "belief" are synonymous with one another, and attempts to delineate them is arbitrary and not helpful. Nope. ldeology and religion are collections of beliefs  -both consistent and inconsistent; which may also contradict themselves.

Din does not include public health regulations, construction codes, traffic tickets . . . so it is unable to administer a modern public order without using secular precedents. Something the Taliban hasn't been able to grasp in the last 25 years.

 

Something is afoul with SC's quote function, so two posts.

[Khurasani]

50 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

I have read so many hadiths about how it will be extremely hard to retain faith in the end of times. Instead of judging people, who are losing faith, you all should really question that why is it so easy for all of you to remain faithful. Those people might be going through some hard tests and no one is immune from tests. You all think that just because you are men, or successful, you feel invincible and you think you will never be tested. Don't be so over confident. You all admit that we are going through end of times, and there are so many hadiths that it will be hard to keep your faith in end of times. I am more worried about all of you and I am wondering if you all are hypocrites.  Spiritual abuse is the most dangerous form of abuse and it's happening a lot. There is a whole website about spiritual abuse insheikhsclothing.com. If you are really sincere about understanding ex-muslims, then go to this website and read instead of making assumptions and judging people. Islam tells us that momins remain between hope and fear. You all seem like you only have hope and too much hope. 

So if it will be extremely hard isn't it good that we here are able to keep it? We can judge ex muslim based on their words and action and there is no valid reason to leave Allah's religion lol and most of the times the reasons ARE cultural or parenting issues. Obviously we will all be tested and we have all likely been tested with something very difficult. Who in here thinks they are invincible because they are a man?  what is wrong with having hope? I'm just confused at what you are trying to say.

[BleedKnee]

1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

I have read so many hadiths about how it will be extremely hard to retain faith in the end of times. Instead of judging people, who are losing faith, you all should really question that why is it so easy for all of you to remain faithful. Those people might be going through some hard tests and no one is immune from tests. You all think that just because you are men, or successful, you feel invincible and you think you will never be tested. Don't be so over confident. You all admit that we are going through end of times, and there are so many hadiths that it will be hard to keep your faith in end of times. I am more worried about all of you and I am wondering if you all are hypocrites.  Spiritual abuse is the most dangerous form of abuse and it's happening a lot. There is a whole website about spiritual abuse insheikhsclothing.com. If you are really sincere about understanding ex-muslims, then go to this website and read instead of making assumptions and judging people. Islam tells us that momins remain between hope and fear. You all seem like you only have hope and too much hope. 

Look, we all know of the crazy mullah stories that make people leave religion. I see this stuff as soon as I turn on the news. But that's never really these people's reasons. 

Lots of these folks come from healthy families, they live in countries where things are just doing fine. Or they come from privileged class backgrounds where they wouldn't even come into contact with objectively harmful aspects of 'religious culture' or what have you. 

Also, I call cap that just because there's spiritual abuse people automatically leave. I literally met a lady who ran away from her abusive ex-husband that she was forced to marry at 16 by the Taliban, and she constantly told me that if she didn't have her iman she'd be dead a long time ago. Muslims are the first to be killed by groups like ISIS, and yet they still head over to their mosques every Friday. Hell, they probably feel like they have to. Allah is the only remedy in situations like they're in. 

[BleedKnee]

On 3/21/2021 at 8:55 AM, 313_Waiter said:

I think the main cause is competing ideologies. People dogmatically associate themselves with (or are socialised into accepting) ideologies like feminism, lgbtq and liberalism (sometimes without even knowing). When they realise Islam is not compatible with aspects of these ideologies they leave the religion.

This is pretty important. There is a lot of literature on the rise of a political culture here in the West that takes political ideologies as a kind of religious identity, I think the same was for quite a few outside of the region, where during the 20th century liberalism or communism became competing religions against Islam or Christianity, rather than just political beliefs. I mean, just look at the discourse among liberals and communists, people regularly question those that are religious and yet attempt to subscribe to those political ideologies. In their minds, you either have one or the other. 

[rkazmi33]

5 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

Look, we all know of the crazy mullah stories that make people leave religion. I see this stuff as soon as I turn on the news. But that's never really these people's reasons. 

Lots of these folks come from healthy families, they live in countries where things are just doing fine. Or they come from privileged class backgrounds where they wouldn't even come into contact with objectively harmful aspects of 'religious culture' or what have you. 

Also, I call cap that just because there's spiritual abuse people automatically leave. I literally met a lady who ran away from her abusive ex-husband that she was forced to marry at 16 by the Taliban, and she constantly told me that if she didn't have her iman she'd be dead a long time ago. Muslims are the first to be killed by groups like ISIS, and yet they still head over to their mosques every Friday. Hell, they probably feel like they have to. Allah is the only remedy in situations like they're in. 

That website IS about people who live in west, privileged class backgrounds. We are so willing to talk about privilege of rich people, but we forget that being a man is also a privilege. Just like rich people can never understand the problems faced by poor people, men can also never understand problems of women. If you have to deal with emotional, psychological abuse for a long time, it's as harmful and traumatic as other kinds of abuses. And  people living in west do face psychological and emotional abuse, even financial abuse. Everyone has different levels of patience. Of course, people who belong to privileged backgrounds are more sensitive, they have a lower threshold for suffering and when Allah judges them, He will consider this while judging them. You cannot invalidate one person's pain comparing it to other people's pain. 

You are right in your second paragraph. You will want to go to mosque, IF the mullah in the mosque gives you hope that your enemies are oppressors, you will get rewarded for your patience in the next life etc etc. What if the mullah starts focusing on your sins only, tells you that all your problems are because of your own sins and your oppressors' sins don't count because they are Momineen. There are more special and lenient rules for them. What if mullah constantly taunts you about all the things going wrong in your life and tells you to make peace with your oppressors otherwise you will suffer more. What if the mullahs were saying all the wonderful things about ISIS members and justifying their actions, would their victims still go to Friday prayers and listen to those mullahs? What if mullahs don't give remedies to victims, instead they become part of the problem? 

Edited March 22, 2021 by rkazmi33

[AbdusSibtayn]

11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

lf it is secular, it is not a religion. Don't listen to those screwball evilgelicals

My point is that it has become a religion unto itself. With its own set of beliefs and practices, however much it may claim otherwise. It has become the very thing which it wanted to banish from the public to the private sphere of people.

[AbdusSibtayn]

11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

lsIam is 0ne belief.

That's not my point. My point is that there is more to Islam than mere verbal affirmation/ acknowledgement of a set of beliefs (tawhid, nubuwwah, qiyamah etc). In our religion, those beliefs have implications beyond that; they influence how we perceive the world and act in it.

It's not that you acknowledge a catechism, and the domain of Islam ends there.

Edited March 23, 2021 by AbdusSibtayn

[AbdusSibtayn]

11 hours ago, Reza said:

The Arabic word "din" is a totality not probably represented by the English word "religion", so in my view, English words like "ideology", "religion", and "belief" are synonymous with one another, and attempts to delineate them is arbitrary and not helpful. 

And, as Ayatollah Misbah Yazdi (rh) says in the prolegomena of his 'Amuzesh-e-Aqa'ed', linguistically it also has the connotations of submission, subjugation and humiliating oneself.

Edited March 23, 2021 by AbdusSibtayn

[hasanhh]

1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

My point is that it has become a religion unto itself.

"Religion-like" with its belief system, rituals(of whatever form) and rhetoric.

[MexicanVato]

as-salaamu alaikum,

I believe that a lot of people enter Islam directly or indirectly through Salafi publications or Salafis themselves. The strict and backwards views of the sect along with lack of akhlaq causes people to burn out. Unfortunately the petrodollar is mighty in the world of propagation. A lot of Shia publications are harder to push due to sanctions for example in Iran. The bookstore I frequent in Dearborn Michigan has to get those books sent to Lebanon and then those books shipped to the US which causes the price to rise significantly. Which is why I have spent about $400 or more there.

[Hameedeh]

32 minutes ago, MexicanVato said:

A lot of Shia publications are harder to push due to sanctions for example in Iran. The bookstore I frequent in Dearborn Michigan has to get those books sent to Lebanon and then those books shipped to the US which causes the price to rise significantly. Which is why I have spent about $400 or more there.

Salam. Read online books (for free) from a reputable Shia site: 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235032935-online-english-shia-books-official-thread/

[Abu Hadi]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:04 AM, BleedKnee said:

Bit of a Rant: 

Not saying that's the case for people here. I know for myself, when I was an atheist (and later a deist), I was so just because I didn't think God existed or that if He did, there wouldn't be revelations and prophecies and so forth. Yet most people I've met IRL and see online that leave Islam do so for incredible superficial reasons. They leave because Islam looks pretty bad to most outsiders, and they want to be at the kool kids table. So everyone has this kind of internalized islamophobia. 

They adopt belief systems and philosophies that are more palatable depending where in the world they live in, or what particular culture they fetishize (primarily Western culture). Not because they had serious rational inquiry into the claims by the religion, and genuinely questioned principles like Tawhid, Judgement Day, Prophethood, etc. 

It's kind of frustrating. I don't get into arguments about this stuff now, but when I was young I used to. And I've grown up really not respecting folks that jump ship just because the ship doesn't look pretty from the outside. By extension of this, there's usually a rejection of the cultural heritage as well and that just screams brown Uncle Tom to me honestly. Like, Ayan Hirsi Ali and her ilk doesn't seem like an exception to former Muslims, but the rule. 

Human beings are social creatures by nature. The downside of that is that it tends to make people overvalue how others people perceive something rather than what the thing actually is. If, in the group that this person identifies with, something is perceived as less valuable, they will adjust their thinking to make it less valuable in their mind, rather than spending that energy trying to figure out what is that actual value of that thing. Most people will do this. That is why it says in the Quran 'Nay, most of them are like cattle, and even further astray'. They are like cattle because cattle simply follow the same path that all the other cattle are following, even if that path is going to lead them off a cliff. Humans are even further astray than cattle because they have a mind, that is much more sophisticated and developed than cattle and they have the ability to understand and perceive many things that cattle are not capable of, yet they refuse to do that and refuse to use the gift of aql that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave them and prefer to shut it off and follow the herd. 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Abu Hadi

[Reza]

On 3/22/2021 at 12:31 PM, hasanhh said:

Din does not include public health regulations, construction codes, traffic tickets . . . so it is unable to administer a modern public order without using secular precedents. Something the Taliban hasn't been able to grasp in the last 25 years.

Why doesn’t din include these things? How do you determine what isn’t part of it? These are mechanisms available to address human affairs ethically and harmoniously (part of din). Not sure what “secular precedents” means. 

[hasanhh]

6 hours ago, Reza said:

Why doesn’t din include these things?

Rhetorically: 0kay, now show me the hadith on the environmental testing of pesticides.

Read what l mean/meant?