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In the Name of God بسم الله

“The city of knowledge” hadith

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25 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) Majority is not really a good argument as its dependant on who is in power. And those that are in line with said power will end up having more numbers.

Eg many Zaidi Imams revolted and were killed. Or the fact that majority Shia were once zaidi (idrisid empire)

2) I did mean ijma within a madhab I was trying to convey how Zaidi rulings work in relation to hadith.

Our discussion went like this akhi:

A) You said, "Zaidi put ijma of Ahlulbayt above any singular narrated hadith."

B) I replied with, how can you claim Ijmaa of Ahl al-Bayt when most Ahl al-Bayt scholars aren't Zaydi, not the the majority are necessarily right.

C) You then seemed to mean that this Ijmaa is within the madhhab, which you now confirmed.

D) So I brought up the point of, why is the Ijmaa of Zaydi Ulemaa' (since it doesn't seem to be an Ijmaa of just Ahl al-Bayt anymore, but just Zaydi scholars) any more relevant than the Ijmaa of anyone else.  Which is were we are at in the discussion at the moment.

29 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

3) Yes but for example if you add a invovation and then go as far as say its aqeeda you can't ignorecit. 

Eg a Sunni scholar is Ahlulbayt but then insists that beleif in return of Dhul qarnain is aqeeda and that he is Alexander the Great. You go through and see he has no evidence. He no longer can be taken as someone of sound knowledge.

That's a very strange example to put forth.  Furthermore, I am not sure on how this has anything to do with our discussion.  Are you saying that an Ahl al-Bayt scholar can be an Asha'ri, Mu'tazili, Maturidi, Salafi, Hanbali or none of the above, and we can still take knowledge of them, but if they believe in this strange example you came up with, you can't?

31 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

4) Well for Sunni in contrast to Zaidi ijma of Ahlulbayt doesn't hold any great value. Let's say for example all Sunni Ahlulbayt scholars agreed that folding hand is forbidden. Sunni would give prefferance to those hadith with authentic chains.

Your understanding of what "Sunnism" seems to be limited; almost like all you know is Salafism.  Ahadeeth with sound chains are rejected all the time by the Sunni Mutakillmoon if they are Ahad and contradict what they are understand to be in line with the Aql, Malikis reject ahadeeth that contradict the Amal of Ahl al-Madeenah, Hanbalis for condtradicting the fatawa of the Sahaba, Hanafis for contradicting their principles and so on.  However, the idea that you can even establish an Ijmaa of Ahl al-Bayt scholars is of course impossible; so this discussion is really pointless when you think about it.

10 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We all agree follow Ahlulbayt

So why should you follow Zaidi Ahlulbayt

Well I claim 

Zaidi aqeeda can be prooven through Qur'an and mutawatir.

What do Zaidis believe that is different from the rest of the Muslims that you think can be proven with the Qur'an and Mutwaatir Ahaadeeth?  The Imamh of Zayd عليه السلام?

12 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The article of aqeeda that Sunni can't accept is Succession of Imam Ali

So if I am right we are left with very general Shia.

Now you look at all the groups of Shia and see where the aqeeda differs. And for me I cant accept those points that go beyond Zaidi aqeeda. (Like Sunni feel about Shia and mutazila.)

So for me Zaidi aqeeda is perfect so I can't follow any other Ahlulbayt who differ from my aqeeda.

I don't understand a thing out of those first three sentences, I'm sorry أخي, but I can't follow any of it.

As far as Zaydi aqeedah being perfect, I don't understand how you reached that conclusions considering you said:

14 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Now beyond that I'm a layman so I'm happy to follow rulings blindly.

So how do you know their Aqeedah is perfect?  Does that mean the Mu'tazili aqeedah is perfect as well?

15 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Within Zaidi there is strict criteria for who can be an Imam so if someone is Ahlulbayt, Zaidi in aqeeda and knowledgeable and claims to be an Imam if he fails in any article of the other criteria (eg he is a proven coward) then he can no longer be classed as an Imam and he is no longer part of the ijma.

Why does he have to be Zaydi?  You haven't given one good reason other than "I think their aqeedah is perfect."  Give us one reason why Zaydi Imams are more worthy of following than Ahl al-Bayt Imams from other madhhabs (if following Ahl al Bayt is mandatory of course)?

17 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

May I ask what's you school of theology and fiqh and how you reached your conclusion.

I am a Hanbali in Fiqh and Hanbali/Asha'ri in Aqeedah.  I became a practicing Muslim in the mid 2000s and started off as a Salafi.  Since I was obsessed with going back to the sources, I would often study the texts the Salafis would recommend, but instead of studying with them, I started the books written by the classical scholars.  As such, I had a very incorrect view of what Salafiyyah was, and when it was exposed to me, it was easy for me to leave because I was never indoctrinated by them anyway.  As time went out, I kept studying new things, and I studied the Ash'ari aqeedah, and then the Hanbali aqeedah and found them to be a good mix.  I do agree with the Mu'tazili aqeedah on some issues, and my studies have led me to accept all schools of aqeedah, even the Salafi one, as I think the differences between the schools is largely, if not completely, semantic.

والله أعلم

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6 hours ago, Cyrax said:

 

.

1) Are you saying that an Ahl al-Bayt scholar can be an Asha'ri, Mu'tazili, Maturidi, Salafi, Hanbali or none of the above, and we can still take knowledge of them, 

2)Your understanding of what "Sunnism" seems to be limited; 

3)What do Zaidis believe that is different from the rest of the Muslims that you think can be proven with the Qur'an and Mutwaatir Ahaadeeth?    

4) haven't given one good reason other than "I think their aqeedah is perfect."  Give us one reason why Zaydi Imams are more worthy of following than Ahl al-Bayt Imams from other madhhabs (

1) I'm going in what you said. When you stated there are more Ahlulbayt in Sunni.

By that I assumed you meant the you have more Syed scholars within Sunni 

2) I wanted to keep the example simple in trying to highlight you don't have a specific concept of following Ahlulbayt.

I understand use of akhl and Maliki being the madhab of the people of madiba. But we will become a topic that is too big for us.

3) Explicit appointment of Imam Ali is different to Sunni.  Once tthat is established you move to differentiating between Shia.

4) I cant give a better answer than that. Because the aqeeda and how you got to that conclusion sets up the framework of where you go from there. And aqeeda is a personal conclusion you need to reach.

Once a person understand the fundamentals they can then follow scholars in line with that. Eg if you are Sunni and reject that Imam Ali was appointed succesor why would you then follow scholars that are saying imamat is part of aqeeda ?

The more knowledge you acquire the more you can narrow things down and the more independent and specific your thought can become.

But understanding your fundamentals is a must for anyone. It's why when two people are discussing they need to start from where they differ. 

No point in a Sunni and Shia discussing who was Imam after Hussain when we disagree on succesion of the Prophet.  Or a Zaidi and 12er discussing occultation. 

Ive chosen  Mitsubishi 4x4 over a Toyota when you actually believe a tractor is better in the situation. And I feel you are asking  me why am I using a Mitsubishi manual it instead of a Toyota manual.

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9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) I'm going in what you said. When you stated there are more Ahlulbayt in Sunni.

By that I assumed you meant the you have more Syed scholars within Sunni 

السلام عليكم حبيبي، جمعة مباركة

I am starting to feel like perhaps there was some miscommunication somewhere along the line.  So I'll try again to make this point:

How can you claim the Ijmaa of Ahl al-Bayt, when most Ahl al-Bayt scholars are NOT Zaydi?  Ijmaa means consensus, which consensus are you actually referencing?  And if you are referencing a Zaydi only consensus, then why is that evidence to support any practice?  So when I mention the majority here, I am not saying they are necessarily right, I am saying you can't claim CONSENSUS when you are a minority.  Its like a Trump supporter saying they was a consensus that Trump should've won the election.

9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

2) I wanted to keep the example simple in trying to highlight you don't have a specific concept of following Ahlulbayt.

I understand use of akhl and Maliki being the madhab of the people of madiba. But we will become a topic that is too big for us.

Unfortunately, it seems you might be replying me to using your phone, so it doesn't seem like you can multi-quote me, so its hard for me to follow just exactly what you're addressing here.  Nevertheless, I think you need to re-think your position towards "Sunnism" and the use of Ahad reports, as it seems you have a very Salafi understanding of how ahadeeth are used.

9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

3) Explicit appointment of Imam Ali is different to Sunni.  Once tthat is established you move to differentiating between Shia.

I think I understand what you are trying to say here, first I need to believe in the concept of Imamah according to how Zaydis understand it, then I moved on and find out that Zaydis are correct because they match that Aqeedah.  However, this is the case with ANY belief, بارك الله فيك.  The question still remains; why is the Zaydi understanding more correct than the 12er one?  Lets just assume that, yes, Shi'asim is the correct understanding of Islam, why Zaydi?  I hope that this finally gets to the crux of our conversation, أحسن الله إليك.

9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Eg if you are Sunni and reject that Imam Ali was appointed succesor why would you then follow scholars that are saying imamat is part of aqeeda ?

Not true to be honest, because there are non-Shia Muslims who believe Imam Ali عليه السلام WAS appointed a political leader after رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم; you even know about them because you reference them as "Imami leaning Mu'tazilis."  There have been hundreds of Shi'a groups throughout history who have had hundreds of different interpretations on what that succession means.  This shows that not only are the reports used to support Imam Ali عليه السلام's appointment are not explicit, since 90% of the Ummah doesn't see it that way, but they are not explicit in what they mean even to the people who accept them as evidence.

Rather, the Shi'i difference with the rest of the Ummah isn't over the issue of political appointment, rather, the difference is over the exclusivity of following Imam Ali عليه السلام to the exclusion of all the other Sahaba, and doing so through Shi'i scholarship only; much like how you only follow the Consensus of Zaydi scholarship, even though most of Ahl al-Bayt are not even Shi'i, let alone Zaydi.

أحسن الله إليك ونفع بك

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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Salaam,

First, I haven't read the entire discussion between @Ali bin Hussein and @Cyrax, I'm just here to answer the question of @Ibn Al-Shahid regarding the authenticity of the Hadith of "city of knowledge" in Sunni books. Second, I'm not an expert in Hadith and 'Ilm al-rijal, so I may be mistaken in my answer. I'm warning you now, this is gonna be a long post.

Anyways, I was reading the book "Peshawar Nights", a really good book that answers a lot of the issues Sunnis have with Shias and Shi'ism according to SUNNI sources. I'm quoting regarding the hadith of "city of knowledge":

."..both sects have unanimously accepted it and that it has been reported with almost perfect continuity. The following of your notable ulama’ have confirmed the authenticity of this hadith: Imam Tha'labi, Firuzabadi, Hakim Nishapuri, Muhammad Jazari, Muhammad Ibn Jarir Tabari, Suyuti, Sakhawi, Muttaqi Hindi, Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i, Qazi Fazl Ibn Ruzbahan, Munawi, Ibn Hajar Makki, Khatib Khawarizmi, Sulayman Qanduzi Hanafi, Ibn Maghazili Faqih Shafi'i, Dailami, Ibn Talha Shafi'i, Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamadani, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani, Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini, Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Tibrani, Sibt Ibn Jauzi and Imam Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i." 

Later he goes on mentioning where in the books these scholars have mentioned the hadith:

(1) Third-century commentator and historian Muhammad Ibn Jarir Tabari (d. 310 A.H.): Tahdhibu'l-Athar.

(2) Hakim Nishapuri (d. 405 A.H.): Mustadrak, v.III, pp. 126,128,226.

(3) Abu 'Isa Muhammad Ibn Tirmidhi (d. 289 A.H.): Sahih

(4) Jalalu'd-din Suyuti (d. 911 A.H.): Jam'u'l-Jawami'y and Jam'u's-Saghir, v.I, p. 374.

(5) Abu'l-Qasim Sulayman Ibn Ahmad Tabrani (d. 491 A.H.): Kabir and Ausat.

(6) Hafiz Abu Muhammad Hasan Samarqandi (d. 491 A.H.): Bahru'l-Asanid.

(7) Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ahmad Ibn Abdullah Ispahani (d.410 A.H.): Ma'rifatu'l-Sahaba.

(8) Hafiz Abu Amr Yusuf Ibn Abdullah Ibn Abdu'l-Bar Qartabi (d. 463 A.H.): Isti'ab, v.II, p. 461.

(9) Abu'l-Hasan Faqih Shafi'i ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Tayyib al-Jalabi Ibn Maghazili (d. 483 A.H.): Manaqib.

(10) Abu Shuja' Shirwaih Hamadani Dailami (d. 509 A.H.): Firdausu'l-Akhbar.

(11) Abu'l-Mu'ayyid Khatib Khawarizmi (d. 568 A.H.): Manaqib, p.49 and Maqtalu'l-Husain, v.I, p.43.

(12) Abu'l-Qasim Ibn Asakir ‘Ali Ibn Hasan Damishqi (d. 572 A.H.): Ta'rikh al-Kabir.

(13) Abu'l-Hujjaj Yusuf Ibn Muhammad Andalusi (d.605 A.H.): Alif-Bas, v.I, p. 222.

(14) Abu'l-Hasan ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Athir Jazari (d. 630 A.H.): Asadu'l-Ghaiba, v. IV, p.22.

(15) Muhibu'd-din Ahmad Ibn Abdullah Tabari Shafi'i (d. 694 A.H.): Riyazu'l-Nuzra, v.I, p.129 and hakha'iru'l-Uquba, p.77.

(16) Shamsu'D-Din Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Dhahabi Shafi'i (died 748 A.H.): Tadhkiratu'l-Huffaz, vol.IV, p.28.

(17) Badru'd-Din Muhammad Zarkashi Misri (died 749 A.H.): Faizu'l-Qadir, vol.III, p.47.

(18) Hafiz ‘Ali Ibn Abi Bakr Haithami (died 807 A.H.): Majma'u'z-Zawa'id, Vol.IX, p.114.

(19) Kamalu'd-Din Muhammad Ibn Musa Damiri (died 808 A.H.): Hayatu'l-Haiwan, vol. I, p.55.

(20) Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Jazari (died 833 A.H.): Asnu'l-Matalib, p.14.

(21) Shahabu'd-Din Ibn Hajar Ahmad Ibn ‘Ali Asqalani (died 852 A.H.): Tahdhibu'l-Tahdhib, vol.vii, p.337.

(22) Badru'd-Din Mahmud Ibn Ahmad Aini Hanafi (died 855 A.H.): Umdatu'l-Qari, vol vii, p.631.

(23) ‘Ali Ibn Hisamu'd-Din Muttaqi Hindi (died 975 A.H.): Kanzu'l-Ummal, vol. vi, p.156.

(24) Abu'r-Ra'uf Al-Munawi Shafi'i (died 1031 A.H.): Faizu'l-Qadir, Sharh al-Jami'u'l-Saghir, vol. iv, p.46.

(25) Hafiz ‘Ali Ibn Ahmad Azizi Shafi'i (died 1070): Siraju'l-Munir Jam'u's-Saghir, vol. III, p.63.

(26) Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Shami (died 942 A.H.): Subulu'l-Huda wa'l-Rishad fi Asma'i Khairu'l-Ibad.

(27) Muhammad Ibn Yaqub Firuzabadi (died 817 A.H.): Naqdu's-Sahih.

(28) Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (died 241 A.H.): Mujaladab al-Munaqab, Musnad.

(29) Abu Salim Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i (died 652 A.H.): Matalibu-s-Su'ul, p.22.

(30) Sheikhu'l-Islam Ibrahim Ibn Muhammad Hamwaini (died 722 A.H.): Fara'idu's-Simtain.

(31) Shahabu'd-Din Dowlat Abadi (died 849 A.H.): Hidayatu's-Su'ada.

(32) Allama Samhudi Sayyid Nuru'd-Din Shafi'i (died 911 A.H.): Jawahiru'l-Iqdain.

(33) Qazi Fazl Ibn Ruzbahan Shirazi: Ibta'lu'l-Batil.

(34) Nuru'd-Din Ibn Sabbagh Maliki (died 855 A.H.): Fusulu'l-Muhimma, p.18.

(35) Shahabu'd-Din Ibn Hajar Makki (a bitter enemy and fanatic, died 974 A.H.): Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa.

(36) Jamalu'd-Din Ata'ullah Muhadith al-Shirazi (died 1000 A.H.): Arba'in.

(37) ‘Ali Qari Harawi (died 1014 A.H.): Mirqat Sharh al-Mishkat.

(38) Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali as-Subban (died 1205 A.H.): Is'afu'l-Raghibin, p.156.

(39) Qazi Muhammad Ibn Sukani (died 1250 A.H>): Fawa'idu'l-Majmu'a fi'l-AHadithi'l-Muzu'a.

(40) Shahabu'd-din Sayyid Mahmud Alusi Baghdadi (died 1270 A.H.): Tafsir al-Ruhu'l-Ma'ani.

(41) Imam Al-Ghazali: 'Ihya'u'l-Ulum.

(42) Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamadani Faqih al-Shafi'i: Mawaddatu'l-Qurba.

(43) Abu Muhammad Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Asimi: Zainu'l-Fata (Commentary on Sura 'Hal Ata').

(44) Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad Ibn abdu'r-Rahman Sakhawi (died 902 A.H.): Maqasidu'l-Hasana.

(45) Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi (died 1293 A.H.): Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch. xiv.

(46) Yusuf Sibt Ibn Jauzi: Tadhkirat al-Khawasu'l-Umma.

(47) Sadru'd-Din Sayyid Husain Fuzi Harawi: Nuzahatu'l-Arwah.

(48) Kamalu'd-Din Husain Meibudi: Sharh al-Diwan.

(49) Haiz Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn ‘Ali Khatib Baghdadi (died 463 A.H.): Ta'rikh, vol. II, p.377, vol. iv, p. 348, and vol. vii, p.173.

(50) Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i (died 658 A.H.): Kifayatu't-Talib, end of ch. 58. After quoting three authentic hadith from the Holy Prophet, he says: "In short, the highly learned Companions, the next generation after them, and the progeny of the Prophet have all acknowledged the virtues, vast knowledge, and judgment of ‘Ali. 

He still goes on and says: 

 

The traditionists of both sects have narrated it. Among your ulama’ who have reported it are Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Manaqib, Musnad, Hakim (Mustadrak, Mulla ‘Ali Muttaqi (Kanzu'l-Ummal, part VI, p.401, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Isfahani (Hilyatu'l-Auliya, v.I, p.64, Muhammad Ibn Sabban Misri (Is'afu'r-Raghibin, Ibn Maghazili Faqih Shafi'i (Manaqib),

Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti (Jam'u-s-Saghir, Jam'u'l-Jawami'y and La'aliu'l-Masnu'a, Abu 'Isa Tirmidhi (Sahih, v.II, p.214, Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i (Matalibu's-Su'ul, Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi (Yanabiu'l-Mawadda), Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i (Kifayatu't-Talib, Sibt Ibn Jauzi (Tadhkirat al-Khawasu'l-Umma), Ibn Hajar Makki (Sawa'iq Muhriqa, ch.9, Fasl 2, p.75, Muhibu'd-Din Tabari (Riyazu'n-Nuzra), Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini (Fara'idu's-Simtain), Ibn Sabbagh Maliki (Fusulu'l-Muhimma), Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali (Sharh al-Nahju'l-Balagha), and a host of others.

They confirm the authenticity of this hadith and have quoted the Holy Prophet as saying: "I am the house of wisdom and ‘Ali is its gate; so if somebody is desirous of gaining knowledge, he should come to the gate."

Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i has devoted Chapter 21 to this hadith. After giving its sources and references, he gives his own comment on it. He says this hadith is highly exalted. That is, Allah Almighty, Who is the source of wisdom and knowledge of all things, and Who taught the enjoining of good and the prevention of evil acts to the Holy Prophet, who also bestowed these gifts upon ‘Ali.

Hence, the Holy Prophet said: "‘Ali is the door of my wisdom. That is, if you wish to benefit by my wisdom, you should turn to ‘Ali, so that realities may be revealed to you."

Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib, Ibn Asakir in his Ta'rikh (writing from his own Sheikhs), Khatib Khawarizmi in his Manaqib, Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini in Fara'id, Dailami in Firdaus, Muhammad Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib, ch.58, Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.XIV, and others of your prominent ulama’ have reported from Ibn Abbas and Jabir Ibn Abdullah Ansari that the Holy Prophet, holding ‘Ali by the hand, said:

"This is ‘Ali - the master and chief of the virtuous and the slayer of the unbelievers. He who helps him is the supported one, and he who deserts him shall himself be deserted." Then the Holy Prophet raising his voice, said: "I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate. So if somebody wishes to obtain knowledge, he should come to the gate."

Also, Shafi'i reports that the Holy Prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate. Nobody enters the house except through the gate."

The author of Manaqib al-Fakhira reports from Ibn Abbas that the Holy Prophet said: I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate. So he who wants to gain knowledge of religion should come to the gate." Then he said: "I am the city of knowledge and you, ‘Ali, are its gate. He lies who thinks that he can reach me through other means than through you."

Ibn 'Abi'l-Hadid in his Sharh al-Nahju'l-Balagha, Abu Ishaq Ibrahim Ibn Sa'da'd-din Muhammad Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain from Ibn Abbas, the great Khatib Khawarizmi in Manaqib from Amr Ibn As, Imamu'l-Haram Ahmad Ibn Abdullah Shafi'i in Dhakha'iru'l-Uquba, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in Musnad, Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamdani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba.

And even the great fanatic, Ibn Hajar in Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, ch.IX, Fasl 11, p.75, Hadith 9 from Bazaz out of the forty hadith that he has recorded concerning the merits of ‘Ali, Tabrani in his Ausat from Jabir Ibn Abdullah Ansari, Ibn Adi from Abdullah Ibn ‘Umar Hakim and Tirmidhi from ‘Ali have reported that the Holy Prophet of Allah said: "I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate. So anyone who seeks knowledge should come through the gate."

Then they say about the same hadith: The ignorant people have hesitated to accept this hadith and some of them have said that this is a forged hadith. But when Hakim (the author of Mustadrak), whose statement you regard as authoritative, heard these things he said: "Verily, this is a true hadith." 

I don't know if this is enough to answer apropiatly to your question, but I don't want to make this post any longer. Anyways, I hope this helps you !

 

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31 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Salaam,

First, I haven't read the entire discussion between @Ali bin Hussein and @Cyrax, I'm just here to answer the question of @Ibn Al-Shahid regarding the authenticity of the Hadith of "city of knowledge" in Sunni books. Second, I'm not an expert in Hadith and 'Ilm al-rijal, so I may be mistaken in my answer. I'm warning you now, this is gonna be a long post.

Anyways, I was reading the book "Peshawar Nights", a really good book that answers a lot of the issues Sunnis have with Shias and Shi'ism according to SUNNI sources. I'm quoting regarding the hadith of "city of knowledge":

."..both sects have unanimously accepted it and that it has been reported with almost perfect continuity.

 

وعليكم السلام,

Not true at all, the majority of Sunni Hadeeth scholarship view this hadeeth as weak.  However, even if it was shown that it was a minority, you can tell the author of this debate was being deceptive when he said "unanimously accept it."  Aren't the names Bukhari, Tirmidhi, ibn Ma'een and adh-Dhahabi enough to show the this claim of unanimous acceptance is false?

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2 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Anyways, I was reading the book "Peshawar Nights", a really good book that answers a lot of the issues Sunnis have with Shias and Shi'ism according to SUNNI sources. I'm quoting regarding the hadith of "city of knowledge":

Wa’alaykum Salaam

Peshawar Nights is a fictional writing.  Its creditability is carries the same weight as that of WWE - World Wrestling Entertainment

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/beshawer.htm

And thanks to brothers Cyrax & Ali bin Hussein for a great, very civil, and knowledgeable debate.

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4 hours ago, Cyrax said:

Rather, the Shi'i difference with the rest of the Ummah isn't over the issue of political appointment, rather, the difference is over the exclusivity of following Imam Ali عليه السلام to the exclusion of all the other Sahaba, and doing so through Shi'i scholarship only; much like how you only follow the Consensus of Zaydi scholarship, even though most of Ahl al-Bayt are not even Shi'i, let alone Zaydi.

أحسن الله إليك ونفع بك

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I agree with this as the real difference. But not necessarily to the exclusion if other sahaba. As in Zaidi Imams have used hadith from sahaba and wives including Aisha (and not just to debate Sunni).

Ok I don't want to derail this thread. So.ill stop there.

 

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On 2/25/2021 at 12:54 AM, Cyrax said:

ibn Taymiyyah and 9) al-Dhahabi and 10) Al-Albani.  Some of them graded it as being fabricated, والله أعلم.

Salam just only weakening & grading it as fabrication by ibn Taymiyyah is cemented proof that this hadith is both Shih & strong because him has weakened & or graded as fabrication any strong & Sahih hadith which has reffered to prove of successorship of prophet Muhammad (pbu) by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) just because his hatred & enmity with Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) specially Imam Ali (عليه السلام) .

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A man inquired from Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.): O Allah’s Messenger! How can I know that my friendship and my enmity is for Allah’s sake and who is Allah’s friend, with whom I should be friendly and who is Allah’s enemy, whom I must consider my enemy?

Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) pointed to Ali ((عليه السلام).) and said: Do you see this man?

The man replied: Yes, O Apostle of God

Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) said: One who is Ali’s ((عليه السلام).) friend, is Allah’s friend, so you should also befriend him. Likewise, one who is Ali’s ((عليه السلام).) enemy, is Allah’s enemy. So, you must also consider him your enemy. Be friendly with his friend, even if he has killed your father or your son. Bear enmity with his enemy, even if he is your father or your son.

• Tafseer of Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) p 49 under Surah Fatiha (1): 7

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Ibn Hajar al-Makki al-Haythami mentions in his al-Sawaaeq al-Muhreqah that al-Baarezi cites on the authority of al-Mansoor as follows, “I saw a man in Syria whose face had become that of a pig. When he asked him about it, he replied, ‘I used to curse Ali (b. Abi Talib) every day a thousand times and on Friday 4,000 times along with his ((عليه السلام).) children. I saw the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) in a dream – and then goes on to narrate a very lengthy dream from which was as follows – Hasan (b. Ali) ((عليه السلام).) complained to him ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) due to which he ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) cursed that man, then spat on that person’s face due to which it became that of a pig and a sign for the people’.”

On 2/25/2021 at 2:25 AM, Cyrax said:

Sunnis, 12ers, Ismailis, and Zaydis have different interpretations of what this hadeeth means; heck even you yourself said:

Al-Sawaeq al-Muhriqah p. 117 by Ibn Hajar al-Makki (He wrote this book specifically to condemn Shias)
Al-Amaali vol. 1 p. 136 of Al-Shajari

Mishkaat al-Masaabeeh p. 692 by Muhammad b. Abdullah Khatib Al-Tabrezi (exp. 741 AH) – one of the most authentic and well-researched books on chains of narrators of Ahle Tasannun traditions
Silsilah al-Ahaadeeth al-Saheehah vol. 3 p. 288 by Shaikh Naasiruddin Albaani – among the most well-known Salafi scholars
Tarikh al-Dimishq vol. 4 p. 317
Al-Bedaayah wa al-Nehaayah vol. 7 p. 355 by Ibn Kathir – amongst the foremost disciples of Ibn Taimiyyah
Those who curse Ameerul Momineen Ali b. Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).) are pigs. If they fight him, then they are worse than pigs

https://www.seratonline.com/31421/who-is-allahs-friend-and-his-enemy/

https://www.seratonline.com/24487/enemies-of-ali-b-abitalib-a-s-are-worse-than-donkeys-and-pigs/

 

On 2/25/2021 at 2:25 AM, Cyrax said:

Sunnis, 12ers, Ismailis, and Zaydis have different interpretations of what this hadeeth means; heck even you yourself sai

only sunnis have different interpretation of this but all of shia sects have similar interpretation from it.

On 2/25/2021 at 8:25 PM, Cyrax said:

It is also used as evidence that Abu Bakr was the most merciful of the Ummah, the most stern is Omar, Othman has the most Hayaa', Ubay is the best Qur'an reciter, etc.  It shows that different Sahaba have different merits.

this is joke of centuries :hahaha:

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12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa’alaykum Salaam

Peshawar Nights is a fictional writing.  Its creditability is carries the same weight as that of WWE - World Wrestling Entertainment

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/beshawer.htm

And thanks to brothers Cyrax & Ali bin Hussein for a great, very civil, and knowledgeable debate.

Salam whether fictional or not , It's completly logical which also has reffered to all sunni sources which even all of sunni sahih books are full of fictional & fabricated hadiths  also until now no sunni scholar has refuted this book because by refuting it , they must have refuted all of Sunni Sahih books.:book:

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Al-Gadir fi' l-kitab wa' l-sunnat wa l-adab

'Allama Amini's magnum opus is the book 'Al-Ghadir fi l-kitab wa l-sunnat wa l-adab (The Ghadir in the Book, the Sunnah, and Literature), a book on verifying Imam 'Ali's immediate Imamate and Caliphate (after the Prophet (s), based on the Event of Ghadir and analyzing the chains of transmition and indication of the Al-Ghadir Sermon.[7] 'Abd al-Husayn Amini has spent forty years of his life writing this eleven-volumes book, and in order to find the documents of the Event of Ghadir, went all the way into the libraries in Iraq, Iran, India, Syria and Turkey in order to conduct his research.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abd_al-Husayn_Amini

https://www.amazon.com/Devoted-Truth-Allama-Author-al-Ghadir/dp/1908110589

https://www.amazon.in/Ghadeer-Allamah-Shaykh-Abdul-Husain/dp/B07Y58X29V

http://en.al-shia.org/content/al-ghadir-2

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In this foreword published in the preface to volume 4 of the “al-Ghadir”, Dr. 'Abdul-Rahman Kiali Halabi says the following after referring to the decline of the Muslims in the present age and the factors which can lead to the Muslims' salvation, one of which is the sound recognition of the successor of the Holy Prophet (s):

“The book entitled “al-Ghadir” and its rich content deserves to be known by every Muslim to learn how historians have been negligent and see where the truth lies. Through this means, we should compensate for the past, and by striving to foster the unity of the Muslims, we should try to gain the due rewards”.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol3-n1-and-2-1996/al-ghadir-relevance-islamic-unity-mutahhari/al-ghadir-and-its

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam whether fictional or not , It's completly logical which also has reffered to all sunni sources which even all of sunni sahih books are full of fictional & fabricated hadiths  also until now no sunni scholar has refuted this book because by refuting it , they must have refuted all of Sunni Sahih books.:book:

I think you're right.

@Debate follower, although I appreciate you answering my post and the time you took to read it, one thing I don't appreciate is the fact that you're linking me to islamicweb.com, one of the most anti-shia websites out there.

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