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In the Name of God بسم الله

Umar the Brave the Warrior the Champion

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2 hours ago, layman said:

Salam,

An army in a battlefield is like a train (consists of locomotive that pulls many wagons/coaches. )

 

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is like the locomotive (engine) of a train when in the battlefield.  The engine that pulls the wagons / couches.  The wagons were the rest of the sahabas.

Without the engine, the train will not move.

Without Imam Ali (عليه السلام), battles would not be won.  

The Quresh army also had their locomotives, but failed to pull their wagons when the rail was uphill.  Engine broke down, and wagons slided backward.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is a locomotive that will climb all hills and still pulling his wagons.

Islam needs the most brave leaders and brave followers.

This makes sense and is logical.

One person fighting 1k-5k people all at once without single combat does not, especially when Imam Ali(عليه السلام) made such no claims about himself like this. -> And this is my problem with Shi'as saying stuff like this because it's Ghuluw and makes us look like lunatics.

59 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

 

Imagine if Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took only Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to the battlefields (because no one else was required) and he single handedly won all the wars then others would have given excuse - 

Actually, this would've been great as it would show the miracle of Islam. One person fighting legions of men whilst being surrounded by them from all sides. It would've been a superhuman achievement and people would look at this in disbelief. But it didn't happen because an army is needed. 

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

Actually, this would've been great as it would show the miracle of Islam. One person fighting legions of men whilst being surrounded by them from all sides. It would've been a superhuman achievement and people would look at this in disbelief.

If Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't took other people to fight then someone would have fabricated 'Had a warrior got chance then it would have been Umar' 

Same as - 

If there was to have a Prophet after me, it would have been 'Umar bin Al-Khattab.

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

But it didn't happen because an army is needed. 

The useless army of cowards failed before Marhab for 39 days. 

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Anyone who were in battlefield with prophet Muhammad (saws) and who did not run away and who standed firm is brave enough.

O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight]. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.” (Al-Anfal: 15-16)

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On 2/25/2021 at 11:13 PM, El Cid said:

Anon Male saying Hazrat Abbas(عليه السلام) could've killed Yazid's entire army by himself.

Do you accept that Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) was able to reach the river, driving away the entire batch (hundreds or thousands) of soldiers stationed at the river bank, even without using his sword? How do you suppose that a man can achieve this seemingly, humanly impossible act?

Why were hundreds, if not thousands of heavily armed soldiers, unable to stop a single unarmed man, who was thirsty for 3 days, from reaching the river bank? If we accept this as a historical fact, we have to accept that Abbas (عليه السلام) and his father were able to face entire armies. Actually, facing entire armies was not even a big deal for them. Even Marhab, the Jew, used to boast that he could face an entire army by himself. 

Why did Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) not permit Abbas (عليه السلام) to use his sword in Kerbala? 

Edited by Anonymous-Male
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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

You're saying that everyone who was with the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) except for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was a coward?

Not a general statement for everyone but who returned fearing Marhab is a coward

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24 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

This is a very strange thread.

@El Cid is correct it's obvious an army is needed to win wars. 

The thread has gotten somewhat derailed.

@The Green Knight is correct that in some circles there is this idea of Umar being some kind of great warrior, although this isn't backed by any historical data.

@El Cid is also correct when he suggests that people should read about islamic history instead of taking inauthentic tales from people who make money out of performing from the pulpit and entertaining the largely ignorant masses.

 

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21 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The thread has gotten somewhat derailed.

@The Green Knight is correct that in some circles there is this idea of Umar being some kind of great warrior, although this isn't backed by any historical data.

@El Cid is also correct when he suggests that people should read about islamic history instead of taking inauthentic tales from people who make money out of performing from the pulpit and entertaining the largely ignorant masses.

 

Who exaggerates more ?

Sunni or Shia ?

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The thread has gotten somewhat derailed.

@The Green Knight is correct that in some circles there is this idea of Umar being some kind of great warrior, although this isn't backed by any historical data.

@El Cid is also correct when he suggests that people should read about islamic history instead of taking inauthentic tales from people who make money out of performing from the pulpit and entertaining the largely ignorant masses.

 

Well, I'm sorry to derail the topic but I did answer the OP's inquiry as well when I said this: (I think answer is sufficient and satisfactory. If it's not, then it's obvious this topic was meant in malice to the Ahle-Sunnat and this is nothing but a contest to throw mud)

As for the OP's question.

The simple answer to your inquiry and any inquiry like this one is Islamic history and Islam itself has a focus on "hero worship" and pseudo Apotheosis. One can even say it has elements of a cult of personality in it. 

For sunnis, their hero-worship revolves around the Companions. For Shia's, their hero worship revolves around the Imams(عليه السلام). They will always over-state/exaggerate their virtues, traits, personalities, skills etc. The only problem is that the Imams(عليه السلام) take an issue with Apotheosis and over-reverence along with punishing people for it whilst people like Usman hire poets to sing their praises all day. Whether it's companions or our Imams(عليه السلام), at the end of the day both are utterly loved by the people of their respective sect and this devotion will always lead to some level of over-statement till the end of time. They are the epitome of human perfection and Islamic mysticism for their followers, the entire Shia-Sunni conflict is just the tearing down of each other's heroes until nothing is left like the purpose of this topic and the entire Shia/Sunni subsection really is at the end of the day. Just people throwing bricks at each other with no one here to learn or inquire. As we say in Urdu, "neecha ghirana". 

4 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

If Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't took other people to fight then someone would have fabricated 'Had a warrior got chance then it would have been Umar' 

Same as - 

If there was to have a Prophet after me, it would have been 'Umar bin Al-Khattab.

The useless army of cowards failed before Marhab for 39 days. 

These are all speculative "would've, could've, should've" statements. You have not brought up any credible proof from the mouth of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) or any other Imam(عليه السلام) about this. I could give you an alternative solution as well Bring everyone for some battles, Bring only Imam Ali(عليه السلام) for 1-2 battles here and there. But this is all speculation. 

2 hours ago, smma said:

@El Cid why doesn't the imams being able to kill hundreds make sense but prophets being able to split the seas, raise the dead and survive being thrown in fires does?

Because the latter actually happened. The former did not. Proof is in the pudding no?

2 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

If we accept this as a historical fact, we have to accept that Abbas (عليه السلام) and his father were able to face entire armies. Actually, facing entire armies was not even a big deal for them. Even Marhab, the Jew, used to boast that he could face an entire army by himself. 

Proof is in the pudding. Boasting about doing something and actually doing something are two different things. Once again, this is all speculative talk from you without a shred of proof from history or hadith.

All of you just repeating these statements without bringing any proof is just proof that I'm right. These are all just stories you've heard from the pulpits from childhood to adulthood so it's very offensive for you for someone to be telling you different. None of the things you keep saying are true happened in history. None of the claims you are making have any support from hadith either. So why go on claiming and saying things which do not make sense? It's because you're conditioned to believe/say these things due to the ignorant speakers making such claims over the  years. 

I agree with @Ali bin Hussein that this is indeed a very strange thread.

The reason I brought this up is because I do not care much about the Ahle-Sunnat and their beliefs but I do care about Shi'as enough to point out their flaws, especially in situations like these where you are both suffering from hero-worship yet you are only pointing a finger at Sunni's like this thread. Let's clean up our own house first and then go about judging others. 

Edited by El Cid
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10 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Who exaggerates more ?

Sunni or Shia ?

I'd say both do in equal amounts but the Shi'a go out of their way to assign elements to Holy Personalities(عليه السلام) which they did not claim for themselves. 

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Who exaggerates more ?

Sunni or Shia ?

A generalization, but Probably both. We don’t need either.  There is no need to exaggerate the fadhail of the ma’sumeen.

Edited by 145_turbo_16V
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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Who exaggerates more ?

Sunni or Shia ?

Exaggeration is one thing, lying is another. Comparing the bravery of someone called "Lion of Allah" to a man known for cowardice, who does such sort of dhulm?

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Once, a Sunni brother on this forum said "“when a single hair from the head of sayyida Fatimah سلام الله عليها was exposed from under her dupatta, the sun itself went dark” or something like that. A man my age literally told me that with a straight face, matter of factly."

These beliefs/statements don't come from hadith/Quran or anything. Only from the pulpits. Same as the whole fight an army by himself thing for Imams(عليه السلام).

No proof. Never happened in reality. Just what people have been told from birth by ignorant speakers.

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11 hours ago, El Cid said:

Well, I'm sorry to derail the topic but I did answer the OP's inquiry as well when I said this: (I think answer is sufficient and satisfactory. If it's not, then it's obvious this topic was meant in malice to the Ahle-Sunnat and this is nothing but a contest to throw mud)

As for the OP's question.

The simple answer to your inquiry and any inquiry like this one is Islamic history and Islam itself has a focus on "hero worship" and pseudo Apotheosis. One can even say it has elements of a cult of personality in it. 

For sunnis, their hero-worship revolves around the Companions. For Shia's, their hero worship revolves around the Imams(عليه السلام). They will always over-state/exaggerate their virtues, traits, personalities, skills etc. The only problem is that the Imams(عليه السلام) take an issue with Apotheosis and over-reverence along with punishing people for it whilst people like Usman hire poets to sing their praises all day. Whether it's companions or our Imams(عليه السلام), at the end of the day both are utterly loved by the people of their respective sect and this devotion will always lead to some level of over-statement till the end of time. They are the epitome of human perfection and Islamic mysticism for their followers, the entire Shia-Sunni conflict is just the tearing down of each other's heroes until nothing is left like the purpose of this topic and the entire Shia/Sunni subsection really is at the end of the day. Just people throwing bricks at each other with no one here to learn or inquire. As we say in Urdu, "neecha ghirana". 

These are all speculative "would've, could've, should've" statements. You have not brought up any credible proof from the mouth of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) or any other Imam(عليه السلام) about this. I could give you an alternative solution as well Bring everyone for some battles, Bring only Imam Ali(عليه السلام) for 1-2 battles here and there. But this is all speculation. 

Because the latter actually happened. The former did not. Proof is in the pudding no?

Proof is in the pudding. Boasting about doing something and actually doing something are two different things. Once again, this is all speculative talk from you without a shred of proof from history or hadith.

All of you just repeating these statements without bringing any proof is just proof that I'm right. These are all just stories you've heard from the pulpits from childhood to adulthood so it's very offensive for you for someone to be telling you different. None of the things you keep saying are true happened in history. None of the claims you are making have any support from hadith either. So why go on claiming and saying things which do not make sense? It's because you're conditioned to believe/say these things due to the ignorant speakers making such claims over the  years. 

I agree with @Ali bin Hussein that this is indeed a very strange thread.

The reason I brought this up is because I do not care much about the Ahle-Sunnat and their beliefs but I do care about Shi'as enough to point out their flaws, especially in situations like these where you are both suffering from hero-worship yet you are only pointing a finger at Sunni's like this thread. Let's clean up our own house first and then go about judging others. 

They did not perform these miracles for the same reason rasool Allah(saws) also did not perform any miracles, are you going to claim he was also incapable of performing miracles?

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14 hours ago, El Cid said:

None of the things you keep saying are true happened in history

Yes, a lot of things about Kerbala are fabrications and the actual history is quite blurred. We only know some basic facts such as Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was martyred thirsty, Abbas (عليه السلام) was martyred on the way back from the river, the body of Qasim (عليه السلام) was trampled, an arrow hit the neck of Ali Asghar (عليه السلام). The details are unclear. 

However, one of these historical facts is that Abbas (عليه السلام) did not participate in battle like the other companions of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). He was not allowed by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to use his sword. Do you agree to this fact or you think even this is fake? 

If you believe this is a fact, why do you think Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) disallowed Abbas (عليه السلام) to fight ? 

Was Abbas (عليه السلام) able to reach the river bank single handedly without using his sword? If you disagree, please tell us your version of the historical event in which Abbas (عليه السلام) managed to fill the goats skin with water? 

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3 hours ago, smma said:

They did not perform these miracles for the same reason rasool Allah(saws) also did not perform any miracles, are you going to claim he was also incapable of performing miracles?

I made a mistake here, many imams performed miracles. Imam Ali(عليه السلام) lifted a forts door which would've weighed many tons with his finger, other imams also have incidents I'm sure you already are aware of. 

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6 hours ago, smma said:

They did not perform these miracles for the same reason rasool Allah(saws) also did not perform any miracles, are you going to claim he was also incapable of performing miracles?

I only believe in the miracles that actually happened for example the door incident at Khaybar. I only believe in miracles which Imam Ali(عليه السلام) claimed for himself like He(عليه السلام) said I can unseat Muwaiya from his chair in Syria whilst sitting in another city. Miracles that came from the word of mouth from Imam Ali(عليه السلام) himself. This fight entire army thing did not so I do not believe in it. Simple. 

3 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

Yes, a lot of things about Kerbala are fabrications and the actual history is quite blurred. We only know some basic facts such as Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was martyred thirsty, Abbas (عليه السلام) was martyred on the way back from the river, the body of Qasim (عليه السلام) was trampled, an arrow hit the neck of Ali Asghar (عليه السلام). The details are unclear. 

However, one of these historical facts is that Abbas (عليه السلام) did not participate in battle like the other companions of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). He was not allowed by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to use his sword. Do you agree to this fact or you think even this is fake? 

If you believe this is a fact, why do you think Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) disallowed Abbas (عليه السلام) to fight ? 

Was Abbas (عليه السلام) able to reach the river bank single handedly without using his sword? If you disagree, please tell us your version of the historical event in which Abbas (عليه السلام) managed to fill the goats skin with water? 

It doesn't matter why Abbas(عليه السلام) didn't fight at Karbala or not. The reason you're asking me this is because your claim is that If Abbas(عليه السلام) could've fought, He would've single handedly wiped out yazid's army. Fair enough. Let me give you a counter argument. Your entire argument and reasoning is based on speculation and you have not provided any solid proof for your exagerrated claims so I'm allowed to talk on speculation as well as per your own logic. Abbas(عليه السلام) fought at Siffin and led the charge wearing Imam Ali(as)'s clothing. By your own logic, the army of Muwaiya should've been single handedly wiped out by Abbas(عليه السلام) that day but we all know how Siffin turned out. Once again I'll say this: I only believe in the miracles that actually happened for example the door incident at Khaybar. I only believe in miracles which Imam Ali(عليه السلام) claimed for himself like He(عليه السلام) said I can unseat Muwaiya from his chair in Syria whilst sitting in another city. Miracles that came from the word of mouth from Imam Ali(عليه السلام) himself. This fight entire army thing did not so I do not believe in it. Simple. 

I don't think that's unreasonable or offensive. It's actually quite logical. Don't believe ignorant speakers on pulpits whose job is to entertain you with such over the top tales. Only go by proof from what the Imams(عليه السلام) actually said and claimed.

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) told us to love him in moderation. Stick to that and you'll never go astray.

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

It doesn't matter why Abbas(عليه السلام) didn't fight at Karbala or not. The reason you're asking me this is because your claim is that If Abbas(عليه السلام) could've fought, He would've single handedly wiped out yazid's army.

Just wanted to add here that this idea that he didn't fight doesn't seem to have any real basis in early historical accounts. So it's not exactly a strong argument to begin with (even though you have anyway addressed it in your post). 

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19 hours ago, El Cid said:

Well, I'm sorry to derail the topic but I did answer the OP's inquiry as well when I said this: (I think answer is sufficient and satisfactory. If it's not, then it's obvious this topic was meant in malice to the Ahle-Sunnat and this is nothing but a contest to throw mud)

As for the OP's question.

The simple answer to your inquiry and any inquiry like this one is Islamic history and Islam itself has a focus on "hero worship" and pseudo Apotheosis. One can even say it has elements of a cult of personality in it. 

1. Your suspicion of my malice intent. Wallahi brother, I love you and we are children of Adam. Your or any person's loss aches me and I myself feel at loss.  Allah has made me this way. Shall I remind you of my intention with this thread? I think you will agree. I wrote this thread out of sheer concern for the children who are being taught false things. Can you imagine what a child will feel like or react when they find out that the role models handed to them were quite different than they were told in school? Some will fall in denial, some might find it easier to just apostate, while some find those bad habits or traits to be not bad / mubah. For example, a child grows up loving Batman. At some point of life he is going to feel that drinking alcohol is ok, fornication is ok, beating up people is fun. And those things are against Islam. So its a seriously injurious trend.

2. "Just throwing mud". If I intended something like that I would have, and I can,  make the lovers of Umar very, very upset, all the while using their own books. "Mud" would not be the word for it. I do not share those things precisely because it hurts people and I do not like doing that. To those for whom Allah has chosen guidance, a mere hint can be enough.

3. Islam has "hero worship". That is your own way to look at it. Puzzling though how that word can also be used for individuals with skeletons in their closets, so to speak. I rather think there are heroes to be found in Islam, great heroes who are to be emulated and followed. And also there are all other sorts of examples too, to be wary of, to be astonished by and know how low a man can fall. As for the heroes, of course, it is human nature to like them.

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17 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

1. Your suspicion of my malice intent. Wallahi brother, I love you and we are children of Adam. Your or any person's loss aches me and I myself feel at loss.  Allah has made me this way. Shall I remind you of my intention with this thread? I think you will agree. I wrote this thread out of sheer concern for the children who are being taught false things. Can you imagine what a child will feel like or react when they find out that the role models handed to them were quite different than they were told in school? Some will fall in denial, some might find it easier to just apostate, while some find those bad habits or traits to be not bad / mubah. For example, a child grows up loving Batman. At some point of life he is going to feel that drinking alcohol is ok, fornication is ok, beating up people is fun. And those things are against Islam. So its a seriously injurious trend.

I'm not personally suspicious of your malice intent but malicious intents is the root cause of all these Shi'a-Sunni debates online on social media. No one is there to learn. Both Shi'as and Sunnis just argue, post topics, try to out-manuever eachother in an attempt to gain supremacy over one another's entire religion. This is nothing new and I'm sure you have seen this a lot as well. I gave you a logical answer which can clear out why Umar's character is over-stated and then I gave you an example of how we Shi'as are guilty of the same thing. That's about it. I never compared Imam Ali(عليه السلام) to Umar and vice versa. I only compared both Shi'a and Sunni to each other in this aspect. You gave an example of the Pakistani Education system. Well, what is exactly suppose to be taught there? It's a Sunni country so obviously they are going to be taught things from a Sunni perspective which will have their moments here and there. But what you're saying right now makes no sense either and is a highly exaggerated and dramatic way of looking at things for example I grew up in Pakistan and lived there for most of my life till my 20s. I grew up with Sunni beliefs that Umar, Abu Bakr, Usman were all perfect companions of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Before and after His(SAW)'s death. They were best friends with Imam Ali(عليه السلام). There were no conflicts and everyone just lived with each other in pure happiness like Sesame street. My parents never corrected me or taught me Shi'a history because they feared I'd go around upsetting Sunnis(You know children say the darnest things right? I respect their decision.) I learnt the truth when I was 16-17 after research. I never fell into denial or apostated and there are a thousand Shi'a examples exactly like my story so you can't say I was the exception either. We Shi'as laugh about this together in Pakistan "Remember the time we all thought the caliphs were good guys because of our course?". I love Batman as much as the next person as a kid and now as an adult. I'm not drinking alcohol/fornicating/beating up people so what again what are you on about exactly? Thousands and millions of people who are Muslims also love Batman and they aren't influenced like this either so I'm not some exception to this either. I understand your sentiment but honestly this all sounds a bit.. extreme brother.

25 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

 

3. Islam has "hero worship". That is your own way to look at it. Puzzling though how that word can also be used for individuals with skeletons in their closets, so to speak. I rather think there are heroes to be found in Islam, great heroes who are to be emulated and followed. And also there are all other sorts of examples too, to be wary of, to be astonished by and know how low a man can fall. As for the heroes, of course, it is human nature to like them.

Hero worship means admiration of a particular individual which can be excessive or not. Umar is a highly revered individual in Sunni Islam so naturally his qualities will be overstated as he'll be excellent in all fields of life. That's the simple answer to your query. 

Wasalam.

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9 hours ago, El Cid said:

I gave you a logical answer which can clear out why Umar's character is over-stated and then I gave you an example of how we Shi'as are guilty of the same thing

Brother I don't think he is referring to mere exaggerations. He is specifically referring to the claim that he was a great warrior, whereas there is no credible basis for this.

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12 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Brother I don't think he is referring to mere exaggerations. He is specifically referring to the claim that he was a great warrior, whereas there is no credible basis for this.

 

Yes, I understand that but the Sunni claim of Umar being a great warrior originates from exaggerations+over-reverance of Umar so they gotta portray him as an Adminstrative Genius+Pious Muslim Ruler who knew the Quran by Heart+Expert Military Genius and Great Warrior+Great Family man+The most Brave and Excellent+Beloved of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). = Aka perfection in all fields of life. 

And I compared this to our own exaggerations where we do the same thing, Just build and add on to the Greatness of the Ahle-Bayt(عليه السلام) and assign them narratives like the ones mentioned above which we're told not to do by our Imams(عليه السلام) because They hate people over-praising Them or trying to attach falsehood onto Them as clearly told to us from hadith.

Wasalam.

Edited by El Cid
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

 

However, one of these historical facts is that Abbas (عليه السلام) did not participate in battle like the other companions of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). He was not allowed by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to use his sword. Do you agree to this fact or you think even this is fake? 

If you believe this is a fact, why do you think Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) disallowed Abbas (عليه السلام) to fight ? 

Was Abbas (عليه السلام) able to reach the river bank single handedly without using his sword? If you disagree, please tell us your version of the historical event in which Abbas (عليه السلام) managed to fill the goats skin with water? 

I believe Abbas (عليه السلام) was tasked as standard bearer and guarding the women and children.  Therefore, he was not allowed to enter battlefield.

When he found out that women and children were very thirsty, he asked permission to get the water from Imam (عليه السلام). That permission was granted.  But not to fight the army of Yazid (la).  

The mission was to move fast to the river and get the water.  Enemies were watching and no one from enemies were yet ready to fight.  Abbas (عليه السلام) did not announce his intention to enemies.  Enemies didn't know he was trying to get the water.

After gotten the water, now the enmies knew the motive.  The enemies won't allowed Abbas (عليه السلام) to bring back the water.  So they shot arrows to disable him.  Cut his hands and shot an arrow to his eye. He felt head first and....

Abbas (عليه السلام) could not completed the mission. Peace be upon him...ya Shahid.

No enemies dare to dwell one to one with Abbas (عليه السلام).  Enemies resorted to long range killing tactics...

Yes, Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) was very brave warrior.  Even, if he goes to battlefield, the enemies will use arrows and throw spears to kill him.  And he will be killed.  Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) said that the night before Ashura. All able men that were with Imam (عليه السلام) would be killed.  Just the matter of how each one was killed with different scenarios.  History recorded that events.

Yes, if enemies were to have hand to hand combat with Abbas (عليه السلام), he would kill hundred of them. That how brave and good Hazrat (عليه السلام) was.

Wallahualam.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited by layman
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On 2/24/2021 at 11:00 PM, starlight said:

Forty-nine of the enemy had fallen and Ali had killed twenty-two, either alone or with the help of others.

Both of you guys are in agreement and don't even realize it...starlight is emphasizing the idealism of Ali's warrior prowess and El Cid is stressing the realism or human aspect a bit...both opinions are simultaneously correct...it's like one person insisting that the glass is half empty while the other emphatically demands that it's half full...Imam Ali (a) is considered a legendary figure even in Sunni circles...his supernatural abilities have been recorded in Sunni and Shi'a narrations...no matter how extraordinary however...at the end of the day he was a flesh-and-blood creature reliant on Allah's sustenance and hidāyah.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, El Cid said:

And I compared this to our own exaggerations where we do the same thing,

Yeah, but it's not exactly the same though...the Sunnis really went overboard inflating Abu Bakr and Umar's qualities, characteristics, attributes etc...to such an extent, that we have to re-question, reexamine and reevaluate everything from scratch now...we - on the other hand -  have good reason to believe what we do about the Imams (a)...but both groups (Sunni & Shi'a) have to remain vigilant and remain careful...ghuluww has affected one group while nasibism has infected the other...both mainstream Shi'ism and mainstream Sunnism are considered middle path traditions and considered acceptable in Allah's sight but outer fringe extremist tendencies should be avoided at all costs.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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On 2/27/2021 at 6:27 PM, El Cid said:

Your claim: Only Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is needed for battle. 

The claim that imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is the only person needed for battles cannot be proven as we can see in battles imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) had as little as 8 or 9 people in his side to fight a very skilled army called the “khazraj”, from what I could remember, and also there is a Hadith which imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) says I’f all the Arabs were to gang up on him to fight him he would not runaway.... this shows his bravery and willing to stand his ground.  The Hadith is in the book minaqib imam Ali I believe. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Both of you guys are in agreement and don't even realize it...starlight is emphasizing the idealism of Ali's warrior prowess and El Cid is stressing the realism or human aspect a bit...both opinions are simultaneously correct...it's like one person insisting that the glass is half empty while the other emphatically demands that it's half full...Imam Ali (a) is considered a legendary figure even in Sunni circles...his supernatural abilities have been recorded in Sunni and Shi'a narrations...no matter how extraordinary however...at the end of the day he was a flesh-and-blood creature reliant on Allah's sustenance and hidāyah.

I remember a story (from my memory) about Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  He was working at a garden when an old man came and joined him for a short break.  Ali (عليه السلام) wanted to share his bread but could not break it.  Then the old man said, "Are you not the same Ali that lifted the door of Khaibar by yourself? And now the same Ali could not break the bread"

Then Ali said "That hand that lifted door of Khaibar was the hand of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  This hand that could not break the bread is the hand of Ali"

The moral of the story is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make miracles to happen through Imam Ali (عليه السلام)...(mazaharal Ajaaib).

Wallahualam.

I hope someone can qoute the exact story because i just rely on my memory.

 

Edited by layman
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1 hour ago, layman said:

I hope someone can qoute the exact story because i just rely on my memory

I remember sayyed Ammar narrating a story where imam Ali and his wife Fatimah were having dinner and imam Ali tried to break a piece of bread to share with her but he couldn’t break the bread and Fatimah said to him that you lifted the door In Khaybar but you couldn’t break a piece of bread? 
 

the story is the same as what you quoted except the setting is different imam Ali is sharing with his wife at dinner. 

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On 2/24/2021 at 11:41 AM, The Green Knight said:

Salam.

Recently I was surprised to know this is taught in schools of Pakistan. smh

I have been combing my memory and could not recall I have read about a single war in which Umar actually fought and did not run, except no fighting took place (Fatah Mecca) or that he fled or did not take part (Badr). A child was telling me how Umar was so brave that while everyone else secretly did hijrat to Medina, he did it after announcement. I asked the child "then he was braver than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ?".

Anyway, the question. Notice I have not even asked about any enemy casualty at his hands. If you know of an account where he fought anything, please write here. Just for knowledge sake.

I think your general recollection is correct. However, Omar is widely recognised to be among the people who went forcefully and threatening or in some narrations committing violence against Fatima and Ali at their home in order to secure the allegiance to Abubakar following the Saqifa event on the death of the prophet.  I think this event tells us much about his so-called bravery.

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On 2/28/2021 at 9:23 PM, El Cid said:

Umar is a highly revered individual in Sunni Islam

But that is against all evidence even when it comes to the topic of this thread brother. We should not let politics harm the Islamic way. Teaching such lies to children is injurious to the ummah. We should reform things in order to do better.

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9 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

But that is against all evidence even when it comes to the topic of this thread brother. We should not let politics harm the Islamic way. Teaching such lies to children is injurious to the ummah. We should reform things in order to do better.

First, you should focus on Shi'a children being fed ghuluw from poisonous vipers on pulpits than worry about other things.

On 2/28/2021 at 8:23 PM, Eddie Mecca said:

Yeah, but it's not exactly the same though...

Principle is the same

Wasalam.

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8 hours ago, El Cid said:

First, you should focus on Shi'a children being fed ghuluw from poisonous vipers on pulpits than worry about other things.

By Allah I do. Sunni are also mine.

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