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In the Name of God بسم الله

Richard Dawkins vs Deepak Chopra. Debate on the Primacy of Consciousness.

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Dawkins has faith in science and says that we will eventually figure out the Hard Problem of Consciousness by science. Chopra says that it is not within the domain of science to figure out consciousness as one uses consciousness to do science. 

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Haqiqat al Muhammadiya - First Creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
“A longer later version of the ʿaql tradition attributed to Mūsā al-Kāẓim b. Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq describes the creation of the Intellect in vivid detail and imagery.20 In this tradition, God creates the Intellect “from a concealed treasured light in His foreknowledge” (nūrin makhzūnin maknūnin fī sābiq ʿilmihi) that no Messenger-Prophet or closest Angel has knowledge of. God infuses the constitution of the Intellect with moral qualities; the Intellect’s soul, spirit, head, eyes, tongue, mouth and heart are described as knowledge (al-ʿilm), comprehension (al-fahm), abstention (al-zuhd), perplexity (ḥayra), wisdom (al-ḥikma), tender-pity (al-raʿfa), and loving-compassion (al-raḥma) respectively. God also clothes and empowers the Intellect with ten powers: certainty (al-yaqīn), faith (al-īmān), veracity (al-ṣidq), inner-tranquility (al-sakīna), sincerity (al-ikhlāṣ), friendly kindness (al-rifq), liberal-gift giving (al-ʿatiyya), contentment (al-qunūʿ), acceptance (al-taslīm), and gratitude (al-shukr). After the Intellect is tested to go back and come forth and complies, this tradition has the Intellect utter a formula of praise in which God is exalted above and beyond any peer (nidd), likeness (shibh), resemblance (shabīh), equal (kufūʾ), match (ʿādil), similitude (mithl), or analogy (mathil). God then praises the Intellect as His best, most obedient, highest, illustrious, and most cherished creature. God then declares that the Intellect is the means by which He is declared one (“by means of thee I am declared one”, bi-ka uwaḥḥadu), worshipped (bi-ka uʿbadu), called upon (bi-ka udʿa), hoped for (bi-ka urtaja), sought (bi-ka ubtagha), feared (bi-ka ukhafu), warned against (bi-ka uhadhdharu), reward is earned (bi-ka al-thawab), and punishment is merited (bi-ka al-ʿiqab). The Intellect prostrates to God for a thousand years and then God grants the Intellect the right of intercession for all in whom it is present”

— Source: Khalil Andani https://brill.com/view/journals/jss/8/2/article-p99_1.xml?fbclid=IwAR2VOKZzEMg1NoXOeKyUTU8oKn4oXR5MZSebA4MZU4Zla-irsXHdVZtxX-o

Video (short) version: https://youtu.be/9bfEyZhMzAs


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Edited by Hameedeh
Edit was off-topic
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On 2/22/2021 at 9:45 PM, 313_Waiter said:



Panpsychism also does not show how individual material existence with their own consciousness add up to a unified form of consciousness which we all possess. Not to forget that we have never experience anything outside consciousness. 

Sheikh Sekaleshfar expresses this unified conscious experience (notes are mine, lecture link is below):


Lesson 13 - Dissecting the “I”


What is this “I”?


The clothes and shoes? No! If you take off your clothes the “I” stays.

Facial hair? No! I trim my hair and yet I persist to be. 

Are you the colour of your skin? No! “I” can get a tan, plastic surgery etc.

Are you your hands? No! I can have an accident and lose my hands.


Is the “I” the kidney, the liver, the heart? No, after a transplant, the “I” remains, my identity and essence remains.

Is it the brain? Although a set of data and memories will be transferred, the essence of the person remains the same.


See floating man thought experiment.


In comas and near death experiences, there is no / minimal brain function but you are still conscious of the “I”.


“I” exist, but the “I” is other than the physical body. This “I” is that which grows with knowledge. Although the “I” is different from the body, it is not mutually exclusive from it. It is not outside or inside the physical body, but it may be in unity with the physical body. It may be in unity with the physical body.



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On 2/21/2021 at 11:33 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

When you think of a thought, You are actually conscious of thinking that particular thought. 

So, Who is this Actual Observer behind that thought? 

This is a beautiful question, I think it is what people call as our “true self”. Does Islam define this as the “Ruh”? I.e. is the “Ruh” consciousness?

Why do we only have a little knowledge given to us about the ruh? 

“They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"” (17:85)


You can change the title to “The nature of consciousness” or “the primacy of consciousness” since this is not just a topic about Dawkins

Make sure you add the big names like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Deepak Chopra, Seyyed Hossein a Nasr, Donald Hoffman. This will attract a lot of views to shiachat.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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Do objects have existence, or does Existence  (or Consciousness) have objects?

Differentiating between the existence of a thing and it’s essence in Islamic philosophy (note that in a non-dual view the essence of all “things” is Existence):


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On 4/23/2021 at 1:47 PM, 313_Waiter said:

My question is when taking anaesthetics, for example, does consciousness go away? If not, what is one conscious of?

I certainly do not remember an instance where (my) consciousness ceased to exist.

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