Thoughts on MALM comparing imam ali (as) to muwayah?

[zahralzu]

MALM put out a video and a statement defending muwayah and claiming he was more politically equipt than the imam (عليه السلام), this is actually an arguement always put forth by sunnis; that the state of the muslim state; it's expansion, economy, military, construction and prosperity was at a high during the time of abu bakr, umar, uthman and muwayah while it was at it's lowest during the time of imam ali (عليه السلام).

Thoughts on this?

[786:)]

I do find it funny how some Shias celebrated with fireworks over MAL’s bukhari gate series and now hate him for this lol. I appreciate him for his objective lens of putting aside his sectarian narrative to seek the truth. I would hope all of us do the same iA.

[Abu_Zahra]

As @786:) has indicated, this trend of jumping onto the bandwagon when someone says something you like, only to jump off when they express an unfavourable opinion, is rather inconsistent. 

 

Moving onto his comment, like most others here I imagine, I don't agree with what he says. Tricking, bribing and deceiving your way into power is a very short term approach to politics and governance. 

What he sees as political astuteness or sharpness is in my view an unethical and unsustainable model of governance. It is no surprise that Bani Umayyah crumbled some generations later. 

The model of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was based on principles rather than popularity and is something that everyone can respect and relate to even centuries later. 

[BleedKnee]

Mufti Abu Layth strikes me as a man that appreciates materialism. His rejection over the second coming of Jesus (عليه السلام) and the virgin birth perfectly illustrates that. I think this is generally the case within educated Sunni circles. There's an affinity to material power and seeing everyone as individual selfish actors (like within the classical liberal paradigm). 

[zahralzu]

29 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

Mufti Abu Layth strikes me as a man that appreciates materialism. His rejection over the second coming of Jesus (عليه السلام) and the virgin birth perfectly illustrates that. I think this is generally the case within educated Sunni circles. There's an affinity to material power and seeing everyone as individual selfish actors (like within the classical liberal paradigm). 

His rejection of the second coming of Jesus (عليه السلام) and Mary’s virgin birth (عليه السلام) isn’t even something that Sunnis accept; I believe it’s his desire to appear “different”, though he claims it’s rather his being “objective”

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

Quote

By Allah, 1 Mu’awiyah is not more cunning than I am, but he deceives and commits evil deeds. Had it not been for the reprehensibility of deceit, I would have been the most cunning of all men. But (the fact is that) every deceit is a sin and every sin is disobedience (of Allah), and every deceitful person will have a banner by which he will be recognised on the Day of Judgement. By Allah, I cannot be made forgetful by strategy, nor can I be overpowered by hardships.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-200-allah-muawiyah-not-more-cunning-i-am

Quote

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

[313_Waiter]

 

[The Green Knight]

Is it necessary to know about each lunacy available today?

[Ali bin Hussein]

MAL has a very materialistic world view. So he can appreciate Muawiya I mean from a worldy no moral.point of view Trump is great at what he does.

[Eddie Mecca]

Land acquisition, savy political maneuvering, material ambition etc. makes you feel good initially...but when it's completely devoid of spirituality and inner substance...fast-forward a thousand years when the masses mistakenly realize that the entire concept of God and religion is a sham and begin to look inwardly with self doubt from a civilizational standpoint and the whole thing crumbles...best to avoid hipster modernist YouTube personalities unless it's strictly for entertainment purposes...his diabolical laugh and goth appearance alone should be enough to disqualify him from serious dialogue.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Eddie Mecca

[AbdusSibtayn]

This is not surprising. Orientalist 'scholars' for more than a generation now have been arguing this (Stephen Humphreys, for example, who is a well known Umayyad apologist within the historiography of early Islam). MALM has simply echoed their views.

Which, given his materialist worldview, rooted in European Enlightenment Rationalism, is only to be expected.

[Eddie Mecca]

I honestly believe if everyone would have stood aside and let Imam Ali (a) and subsequent Imams (a) rule their way from the get-go and without hinderance Muslims would be 75 - 85% of world population now instead of 25%...people would have seen the inner and outer beauty of Islam and naturally been attracted to it...Islam was running at 10% maximum capacity under the ugly rule of the Umayyads...Islam grew despite Umayyad rule and not because of it...you can't mess up the caliphate, stir insurrection, kill Uthman, cause a civil war and then toss Ali (a) the broken pieces and expect him to mend Humpty Dumpty back together and blame him for not being an effective ruler...Imam Ali's (a) era was filled with social strife, inhouse intrigue and political turbulence...Abu Bakr and Umar's respective reigns were relatively peaceful (except for Ridda wars) and more accommodating for expanding the borders of the Islamic State

Edited March 2, 2021 by Eddie Mecca

[Zaydi Shiapard]

Muawiyah's general Busr ibn Abi Artaat ordering the rape of Muslim women, Muawiyah ordering to curse Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., Muawiyah ordering the murder of Hujr ibn Adi (رضي الله عنه). and other companions of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., Muawiyah forcing people on the sword's tip to make obeisance to Yazid etc. (all mentioned by Sunni scholar Mawdudi in his Khilafat o Mulookiyat), and still he is not a tyrant, rather a paragon of leadership. Why? Because MAL's imam Malik ibn Anas loves him and criticizes Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

[Panzerwaffe]

MAL is factually wrong Aisha and talha declared war on ALi by attacking Basra 

and if muawiayah stepped down as governer then there would have been no war 

before we get all emotional about this atleast point his inaccuracies by classic sunni historical works 

 

also im going to take a jab at those who give pseudo religious , snake charmers like MAL, numan ali khan , nakhswani etc any attention.They are all charlatans , muslim equivalent of tele evangelists 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Panzerwaffe

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

People have their opinions. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) even says that he was the best for the Ummah, when the people begged and he accepted, they started comparing him to Muawiyah.