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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can Twelvers answer this reasonably?

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Guest Shia-Zaydi

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According to the doctrine of Imamate, Imams have a God given responsibility and duty by the power invested within them to guide mankind. I am willing to say that all 11 Imams administrated such absolute guidance for the sake of argument. However, the same cannot be said about the 12th imam. Can someone indicate that the 12th Imam is also administering such guidance? 

If not, is he then not fulfilling his duty, as per the doctrine of Imamate?

I believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, so such a cop-out is not acceptable. I also believe in the coming of a Mahdi, however, he is not born yet, therefore is not guilty of being unqualified to fulfill his obligation. 

It is clear that the majority of the Ummah is misguided, since they have not recognized the 12th Imams presence, where is his guidance? 

I would appreciate a reliance on logic, as opposed to resorting to Hadith in order to prove his existence. Considering that what is in question is not his existence per se, rather his fulfillment of what is professed via the doctrine of Imamate - actively administering guidance to the Ummah. 

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Assalamu Alaikum,

A few months ago, I watched one of Sayed Ammar Nakshawni's Q/A session i think it was where he said along the lines of, Just as the shaitaan has the ability to whisper bad things into the hearts of people, the Imam inspires people to do good. He also said, sometimes you might get a random wave of good thoughts, telling you to do good, this is the Imam guiding us. I do not know how authentic this is, but its something to consider.

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37 minutes ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Assalamu Alaikum,

A few months ago, I watched one of Sayed Ammar Nakshawni's Q/A session i think it was where he said along the lines of, Just as the shaitaan has the ability to whisper bad things into the hearts of people, the Imam inspires people to do good. He also said, sometimes you might get a random wave of good thoughts, telling you to do good, this is the Imam guiding us. I do not know how authentic this is, but its something to consider.

Salaam do you have a link to the Q/A session..

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2 hours ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

the Imam inspires people to do good. He also said, sometimes you might get a random wave of good thoughts, telling you to do good, this is the Imam guiding us.

Walaykom Al-Salam Warahmatullah,

Brother, do you not see how these arguments are similar to what Christians bring forth? 

'they were inspired by the whispers of the holy ghost' 

Again, the idea of not being to refer back to the Imam is a falsification of the doctrine. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

According to the doctrine of Imamate, Imams have a God given responsibility and duty by the power invested within them to guide mankind. I am willing to say that all 11 Imams administrated such absolute guidance for the sake of argument. However, the same cannot be said about the 12th imam. Can someone indicate that the 12th Imam is also administering such guidance? 

If not, is he then not fulfilling his duty, as per the doctrine of Imamate?

I believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, so such a cop-out is not acceptable. I also believe in the coming of a Mahdi, however, he is not born yet, therefore is not guilty of being unqualified to fulfill his obligation. 

It is clear that the majority of the Ummah is misguided, since they have not recognized the 12th Imams presence, where is his guidance? 

Salam at first " Imam is like Kaaba" which we must move toward him but also all of the Imams from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to 12th Imam are our destiny to reach like a muslim ust prays toward Kaaba also every muslim must do his best effort to at least visits Kaaba one time in his/her lifetime which even pilgrimage of Kaaba does not obligatory for us but at least do anything that we can do to prepare ourselves for this journey in every aspect of our life even we can't go to Hajj it in our lifetime but in other hand every Imam specially 12th Imam is our best mentor & colleague in this journey which in every step toward him for reaching to him he helps us hidden or unhidden  which he both calls & guides us to himself which in this jouney makes us a better person in every step so he is fullfiling his duty which 12th Imam is not bounded with limitations of other Imams by tyrants of their time because he is Qaim (riser) which for us he has borned & he is  living between us as infallible Imam & his guidance is in every step of our life like Allah guidance is with us in every step.

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11 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Obviously you do not understand 

Imammah. 

It isn't an issue of how this guidance reaches me, it is moreso an issue of receiving guidance. Which is completely absent from your 12th Imam, respectively. 

For example, we don't see any indication of him even being alive other then testimony and claims by those who said to have met him, or supposed representatives who say that they convey his (few) messages to his Shia, while they gather the Zakat on his behalf - yeah nothing suspicious going on there. 

As a Zaidi (former twelver) I cannot help but attest to the outstanding sea of illumination that the Zaidi school brings, they not only hold on to the book of Allah and the Ahlulbayt, they also have Imams from the progeny of Imam Hassan and Hussein continuously writing books, lecturing their Shias, and actively enjoining good and forbidding evil within their communities.

To this day this guidance persists and if one sincerely looks through history it is clear that those Imams from the Hassanis and Husseinis were upon one Manhaj and it is those Ghulatt (extremist Shia/exaggerators) who attributed to the Imams what they did not claim. 

20 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

When there are thick clouds in the day and the sun is hidden can you say the sun is not there or not doing its job even though its light is there?

Unfortunately the 'representative' when conveying this supposed message to the Shia on behalf of the Imam didn't realize that the sun continues to give nutrition to the earth even when clouds cover it, however, this same nutrition or guidance cannot be maintained for the 12th Imam.

If the sun actually disappears we would factually perish in eight minutes.

Tell me if you can think of the Imam not existing like the sun, what would perish? Some fairytales and a change in narrative? The belief would be that Al-Hassan Al-askari ((عليه السلام)) went into occultation instead, like what was said about Ismail ibn Jaf'ar, Jafar Al-Sadiq, Muhammad ibn Hanafia, Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-nafs Al-Zakiyyah, and so many more. You're all victims of a great scam and have been deviated from the true path of the Ahlulbayt. 

Humble yourself, because maybe there is a lot that you don't understand. 

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5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

mentor

Where can I find this mentorship? 

5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

guidance is in every step of our life like Allah guidance is with us in every step.

Where can I find this guidance?

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14 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Salaam do you have a link to the Q/A session..

Sorry brother, I can't recall which Q/A session he mentioned this is in.

Gues Shia-Zaydi, try reading this, https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/necessity-existence-imam-al-mahdi, it should answer your question.

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4 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Did Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام)) also not "fulfill his duties" when he gave up on the people (trying to kill him) and was taken into occultation by Allah? And do the sunnis not agree that Prophet Jesus has a role to play in the future when the time is right? So all this time he stayed "hidden" while the people he was supposed to guide corrupted the Injeel and he did nothing to stop it?

You're absolutely right Jesus is not giving guidance to anyone as of now and that’s absolutely fine, however, the doctrine of Imamate stipulates that for each era and time there needs to be an imam, why? Because they need to provide guidance. Where is this guidance from your 12th imam? 

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17 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Note that the first eleven imams too, were not necessarily in contact with all of those who recognized them and believed in their imamate. Some were imprisoned, others were placed under house arrest, some were exiled etc..

You could physically reach them one way or another, also you do realize that this is a subtle refutation to this idea that their position is to provide guidance to all of mankind and that if the world simply ceases to have an imam the earth would wither away in misguidance. 

17 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I would say that it is the teachings and guidelines that we must look towards for guidance.

I am interested in the teachings of the twelfth imam, particularly those which pertain to post major occultation. My Zaydi Imams (all from the Ahlulabyt and descendants of Fatima from the sons of Hassan and Hussein) have written books, letters, and to this day there is a continuation of their guidance being revived from the time of RasulAllah till today.

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5 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Did Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام)) also not "fulfill his duties" when he gave up on the people (trying to kill him) and was taken into occultation by Allah? And do the sunnis not agree that Prophet Jesus has a role to play in the future when the time is right? So all this time he stayed "hidden" while the people he was supposed to guide corrupted the Injeel and he did nothing to stop it?

Easy answer to that we have muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)......so if you wanna do qiyas with a prophet then why didn’t Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give us another imam while imam Mahdi is in occultation like Jesus?

something to ponder over.

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Heh you didn't answer my questions and instead started praising the guidance of Zaidi school. That is not coherent. Thought you wanted an Imam's guidance, direct and up close from the Imam. To which I would recommend the Ismaili school as they have a living Imam who even recites their nikahs.

As for the Zaidi school's "guidance", its so unknown to me I didn't even know the sect is still around. Thought it vanished like some others. You guys dont collect charity? Thats ok. Where would you spend it anyway. We have so much to do in contrast.

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22 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

Where can I find this mentorship? 

Where can I find this guidance?

:salam:

Salam you can find both of them where you move in way of infallible Imams specially current alive 12th Imam.

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Guest Psychological Warfare

FYI& Review. 

Quote

2. The Zaydiyya Sect:

Among the three sub-sects of the Zaydiyya, al-Jărudiyya is extinct. The other two sub-sects, the Sulaymăniyya and the Batariyya, cannot be technically considered as "Shi'a". Both believe that the Prophet did not appoint anyone as his successor; both believe in the caliphate of Abu Bakr and 'Umar but not in the caliphate of 'Uthman; they do not believe in the infallibility of the Imams; they believe that it is possible to have two imams at the same time but in two different regions.

According to the Zaydiyya, any descendant of the Prophet (i.e., a sayyid) who is a jurist (faqih, mujtahid), pious, courageous, and calls people towards Allăh by the "sword" (i.e., jihad) can be the imam. (On this account, the late Ayatullah al-Khumayni was definitely fulfilling all these requirements for the imamate of the Zaydis! I wonder what the Yemeni Zaydis have to say about this? But, on the other hand, they might say that this would apply to the Zaydis in Iran only!!)

All historians of religion, Shi'ahs and Sunnis, say that the Zaydis follow the Mu'tazila school in their beliefs, and the Hanafi school in their laws. As such, the Zaydis are more closer to the Sunnis than the Shi'as. (For details, see S.S. Akhtar Rizvi, "Shi'a Sects" published in The Light, and also reprinted in The Right Path [Toronto] in 1995).

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/scholars-and-experts/4246/Sayyid-Muhammad-Rizvi

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

Heh you didn't answer my questions

Did you even bother to read what I had to say? I clearly picked out the faults in your poor excuse of an argument, also within the sun and cloud sermon you mentioned it also says that the 12th Imam is going to appear without him having to pledge allegiance to his forefathers. Did the 'ambassadors' forget that Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) did not do bay'ah to yazid (la)?

1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

Thought you wanted an Imam's guidance, direct and up close from the Imam. To which I would recommend the Ismaili school as they have a living Imam who even recites their nikahs.

You know I actually appreciate these responses they highlight the level of ignorance and arrogance you carry at the same time.

1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

As for the Zaidi school's "guidance", its so unknown to me I didn't even know the sect is still around. Thought it vanished like some others. You guys dont collect charity? Thats ok. Where would you spend it anyway. We have so much to do in contrast.

So is the right path based on democracy? I am sure as twelvers you would differ considering Sunnism is a majority. 

As for your attempt to undermine the sect of the Ahlulbayt, you're only undermining yourself. 

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28 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

:salam:

Salam you can find both of them where you move in way of infallible Imams specially current alive 12th Imam.

I followed the Imams as a twelver and they led me to the Zaidi school.

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10 hours ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Sorry brother, I can't recall which Q/A session he mentioned this is in.

Gues Shia-Zaydi, try reading this, https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/necessity-existence-imam-al-mahdi, it should answer your question.

In the preamble to the discussion he inadvertently says that he is not going to deal with the actual guidance and obligation of an Imam and instead provides a mystical answer.

Quote

In answer to this, it must be said that such people have not really understood the meaning of the Imam, for the duty of the Imam is not only the explanation of the religious sciences and external guidance of the people. In the same way that he has the duty of guiding men outwardly, the Imam also bears the function of "Walayah”and the internal guidance of human.

 

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:46 AM, The Green Knight said:

How do you expect or imagine "his guidance" to have reached you? In what form? Books, lectures, podcasts? His agents carrying his badge for authentication? Obviously you do not understand ghaybah. When there are thick clouds in the day and the sun is hidden can you say the sun is not there or not doing its job even though its light is there?

During the minor occultation something substantial would have been nice.

More Letters 

Book on fiqh

Qur'an tafsir

Or even guidance on authenticity of Al kafi etc.

Some guidance on wilayatul faqih.

Anything really 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

My Zaydi Imams (all from the Ahlulabyt and descendants of Fatima from the sons of Hassan and Hussein) have written books, letters, and to this day there is a continuation of their guidance being revived from the time of RasulAllah till today.

Who is the current Zaydi Imam? 

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10 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

You could physically reach them one way or another, also you do realize that this is a subtle refutation to this idea that their position is to provide guidance to all of mankind and that if the world simply ceases to have an imam the earth would wither away in misguidance. 

I don't see it as a contradiction or refutation. The sunnah of the prophet and the aimmah are essential guidelines and references for us. I wouldn't restrict the role of a guide to a specific area or era. The Prophet was not only a guide for Meccans, rather even today we continue to take guidance from the sunnah. 

There are those who claim that the Qur'an, or at least the Madani verses, were for a specific place and time. We are not among them.

Similarly the sunnah is also equally as relevant to us as to the previous and later generations.

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3 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see it as a contradiction or refutation. The sunnah of the prophet and the aimmah are essential guidelines and references for us. I wouldn't restrict the role of a guide to a specific area or era. The Prophet was not only a guide for Meccans, rather even today we continue to take guidance from the sunnah. 

There are those who claim that the Qur'an, or at least the Madani verses, were for a specific place and time. We are not among them.

Similarly the sunnah is also equally as relevant to us as to the previous and later generations.

Brother I understand, where is the guidance of the 12th Imam in particular? Why is everyone beating around the bush, respectively. 

8 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

More Letters 

Book on fiqh

Qur'an tafsir

Or even guidance on authenticity of Al kafi etc.

Some guidance on wilayatul faqih.

This is an excellent point, especially considering the minor occultation was 69 years in a crypt. The 12th Imam would have had ample time to write, also the little instances in which he addressed his shia, no one told me why they have contradictions?

10 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

the 12th Imam is going to appear without him having to pledge allegiance to his forefathers. Did the 'ambassadors' forget that Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) did not do bay'ah to yazid (la)?

 

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11 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

Did you even bother to read what I had to say?

You wrote a few lines but did not answer my question. I wanted to understand your problem better. But we can understand. Unfortunately you are not making a lot of coherence. It is why this thread is not being able to take off. You are on about something, but I can not help unless we take small steps and proceed logically.

9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

During the minor occultation something substantial would have been nice.

More Letters 

Book on fiqh

Qur'an tafsir

Or even guidance on authenticity of Al kafi etc.

Some guidance on wilayatul faqih.

Anything really 

Yes more is always nice.  It would have been better if the Quran had a thousand chapters. However it is sufficient and so are the other things. There is no insufficiency.

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58 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

 

Yes more is always nice.  It would have been better if the Quran had a thousand chapters. However it is sufficient and so are the other things. There is no insufficiency.

Qur'an alone is not sufficient

“O people! I am leaving behind two things, which if you hold fast to, you will never go astray: the Book of Allah and, the members of my Household, my progeny."

 

 

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18 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

According to the doctrine of Imamate, Imams have a God given responsibility and duty by the power invested within them to guide mankind. I am willing to say that all 11 Imams administrated such absolute guidance for the sake of argument. However, the same cannot be said about the 12th imam. Can someone indicate that the 12th Imam is also administering such guidance? 

If not, is he then not fulfilling his duty, as per the doctrine of Imamate?

I believe in the Imamate of Imam Ali, so such a cop-out is not acceptable. I also believe in the coming of a Mahdi, however, he is not born yet, therefore is not guilty of being unqualified to fulfill his obligation. 

It is clear that the majority of the Ummah is misguided, since they have not recognized the 12th Imams presence, where is his guidance? 

I would appreciate a reliance on logic, as opposed to resorting to Hadith in order to prove his existence. Considering that what is in question is not his existence per se, rather his fulfillment of what is professed via the doctrine of Imamate - actively administering guidance to the Ummah. 

Salam,

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in Qur'an:

[Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

In order for us to properly serve and seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we need to be on the right path.  The path of those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors and NOT just anyone.  Prophets and Imams are the Right Path that provide that guidance.

Those that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors must exist at all time.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has preserved Isa (عليه السلام) to show the right path for Christians.  Has Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not preserve a living person to guide Muslims?  If there is none, that will not be fair.  The the person that will guide the ummah must claim that he is the person whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors as stated in the Qur'an.  That is why the Twelver believe in 12th Imam that has been preserved and alive until the appointed time comes (same as Isa (as))

There is no point Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives continuous successive Imams that number in the hundred (after the death of the Prophet) because it was clear that from the very 1st Imam (after the Prophet death) that the majority from the ummah was having problem in term of acceptance of Appointed Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Eleven successive Imams that were made available in physical term as  leaders for the ummah, and it sufficient to prove the failure of Ummah to appreciate the Imams that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) selected and bestowed favors.   Infact, all 11 Imams were killed and limitation were forced on them.  Therefore, the 12th Imam has to be hidden from the ummah until to the appointed time when Ummah is ready to appreciate his ultimate guidance (to bring justice on the earth).

The issue raised from  the OP is "It is clear that the majority of the Ummah is misguided, since they have not recognized the 12th Imams presence, where is his guidance? 

First of all, we have to ask on the type of guidance that we as the ummah need now?  So much guidance were given by past Imams but the majority of ummah still followed the rulings of people like Muawiya, Yazid and other oppressor leaders until today.  So guidance is abundantly available and can be obtained from the Qur'an, the narrators of Hadiths, written texts and current learned persons.  We are not lacking of guidance in term of religious context. 

HOWEVER, there is  a missing link which is called the "ultimate guidance" which is to bring real justice on the earth for all.  This ultimate guidance require pre-requisite.  It will not fall from the sky.  If a physical Imam comes now, he will be killed immediately, just like all 11 Imams that were killed.  The US and Israel will kill him with whatever weapons they have.  They did killed Shahid Ghasem Sulaimani.  They tried to kill Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) during early of Islamic Revolution, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stopped their plan and their commandos and equipment were destroyed in Tabas desert.  Otherwise, the Islamic Rev was likely to stalled.

Once, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said "if he had enough sincere followers, he would had stood up against injustice done by people at Saqifah when his right was taken".  How many was ready that time?...less than 10.

How many among the Ummah is ready to receive Imam Mahdi? Is the ummah is ready to sacrifice themselves for the ultimate guidance?  As for me, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is ready to give us the 12th Imam and Isa (عليه السلام), but current Muslim Ummah IS NOT YET ready to receive them.  The only guidance left needed by the ummah is to unite the whole oppressed people of the world and establish justice on the earth.  The ummah is not yet ready to give that sacrifice and 100% support and therefore the 12th Imam is not yet to come.   

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can preserve Isa (عليه السلام), and there is no question that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can preserve the 12th Imam until today.  Preserving the living 12th Imam is to fulfill Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) promise that there will always be one living Person that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors so we can worship and seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (as stated in Surah Al-Fatiha).

 

Wallahualam.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

In the preamble to the discussion he inadvertently says that he is not going to deal with the actual guidance and obligation of an Imam and instead provides a mystical answer.

 

I read it and he does talk about it, you just need to read it.

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4 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Qur'an alone is not sufficient

Nice try. But I did not write the word "alone" and I did write "along with the other things" like hadith books.

Anyway,

How about you people introduce to us your religion. Since it looks like you are trying to showcase it. How many Imams do you have? Who is the Imam now? Who was Zaid and what were his achievements? IIRC he was a son of a real Imam and a few of his followers and he broke away. Like Ismail was a son of an Imam. And another imposter imam was a son of Imam Askari (عليه السلام). Am I right?

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3 hours ago, layman said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has preserved Isa (عليه السلام) to show the right path for Christians.

The Zaydi belief does not necessarily subscribe to this idea of Isa coming back for Christians, there is not enough evidence to prove this claim and in reality it doesn't make sense, why didn't he come back when they started to say he was the son of God? 

3 hours ago, layman said:

That is why the Twelver believe in 12th Imam that has been preserved and alive until the appointed time comes (same as Isa (as))

The belief in the Mahdi is universal, the belief in an occult Imam is an oxymoron. 

3 hours ago, layman said:

There is no point Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives continuous successive Imams that number in the hundred (after the death of the Prophet) because it was clear that from the very 1st Imam (after the Prophet death) that the majority from the ummah was having problem in term of acceptance of Appointed Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Eleven successive Imams that were made available in physical term as  leaders for the ummah, and it sufficient to prove the failure of Ummah to appreciate the Imams that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) selected and bestowed favors.   Infact, all 11 Imams were killed and limitation were forced on them.  Therefore, the 12th Imam has to be hidden from the ummah until to the appointed time when Ummah is ready to appreciate his ultimate guidance (to bring justice on the earth).

 

Red: Your response is inadequate because it misunderstands the belief in Zaydi Imamate and makes many false presuppositions.

Blue: You say 'eleven successive imams' but there is not دليل قطعي for their successorship, unlike Imam Ali and Imam Hassan/Hussein.

Yellow: Hidden or unborn you agree there is no difference, because clearly you haven't mentioned any indication of guidance whatsoever.

3 hours ago, layman said:

So much guidance were given by past Imams but the majority of ummah still followed the rulings of people like Muawiya, Yazid and other oppressor leaders until today.  So guidance is abundantly available and can be obtained from the Qur'an, the narrators of Hadiths, written texts and current learned persons.  We are not lacking of guidance in term of religious context. 

I am interested in the specific guidance which comes from the 12th Imam, why is it so difficult to answer this question? 

3 hours ago, layman said:

HOWEVER, there is  a missing link which is called the "ultimate guidance" which is to bring real justice on the earth for all.  This ultimate guidance require pre-requisite.  It will not fall from the sky.  If a physical Imam comes now, he will be killed immediately, just like all 11 Imams that were killed.  The US and Israel will kill him with whatever weapons they have.  They did killed Shahid Ghasem Sulaimani.  They tried to kill Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) during early of Islamic Revolution, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stopped their plan and their commandos and equipment were destroyed in Tabas desert.  Otherwise, the Islamic Rev was likely to stalled.

Mashallah so there is guidance and there is ULTIMATE guidance? Where is this ultimate guidance mentioned, or did you just make this up? 

3 hours ago, layman said:

Once, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said "if he had enough sincere followers, he would had stood up against injustice done by people at Saqifah when his right was taken".  How many was ready that time?...less than 10.

Aha! But Imam Ali was continuously giving guidance, do you forget the advice he gives to Muawiyah and the many times Umar and Abu Bakr come and inquire from him in legal matters?

3 hours ago, layman said:

How many among the Ummah is ready to receive Imam Mahdi? Is the ummah is ready to sacrifice themselves for the ultimate guidance?  As for me, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is ready to give us the 12th Imam and Isa (عليه السلام), but current Muslim Ummah IS NOT YET ready to receive them.  The only guidance left needed by the ummah is to unite the whole oppressed people of the world and establish justice on the earth.  The ummah is not yet ready to give that sacrifice and 100% support and therefore the 12th Imam is not yet to come.   

You're joking? You do know that over 3 million Iraqis joined the Hashad Al-Shabai upon a mere fatwa issued by Sayyid Sistani. We are ready and we have always been ready (sincere believers) the issue isn't that we are unsincere and sorry if you believe that, it is only that the matter is within the hand of Allah. 

Do you forget that everyone of the 11 Imams had a companion who would come and ask when is the Mahdi going to come? I also wonder, did they forget this supposed successorship? 

3 hours ago, layman said:

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can preserve Isa (عليه السلام), and there is no question that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can preserve the 12th Imam until today.  Preserving the living 12th Imam is to fulfill Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) promise that there will always be one living Person that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors so we can worship and seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (as stated in Surah Al-Fatiha).

This is qiyas, twelvers can't do that.

I reiterate, where is the guidance of the 12th Imam?

2 hours ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

I read it and he does talk about it, you just need to read it.

You clearly haven't read it lol, or you at least misunderstood it. It was nothing short of irfani/qiyas jargon.

Quote me a section and I'll show you. 

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On 2/16/2021 at 2:58 AM, ShiaofAli12 said:

I watched one of Sayed Ammar Nakshawni's Q/A session i think it was where he said along the lines of, Just as the shaitaan has the ability to whisper bad things into the hearts of people, the Imam inspires people to do good. He also said, sometimes you might get a random wave of good thoughts, telling you to do good, this is the Imam guiding us. I do not know how authentic this is, but its something to consider.

You're making Twelver Shi'ism sound weird like followers of L. Ron Hubbard or Mormonism or Nation of Islam beliefs like Allah flies around in the mothership and created Himself out of triple stage darkness etc. This is borderline ghuluww...be careful.

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On 2/16/2021 at 6:16 AM, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

it is those Ghulatt (extremist Shia/exaggerators) who attributed to the Imams what they did not claim. 

In your opinion what is ghuluww about the Twelver belief system? Do you believe we (i.e. Twelvers) are mushrikeen?

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20 hours ago, Guest Harder said:

Easy answer to that we have muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)......so if you wanna do qiyas with a prophet then why didn’t Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give us another imam while imam Mahdi is in occultation like Jesus?

something to ponder over.

How is that an easy answer, the Prophet (pbuhf) was not present at the time and the people fell into falsehood. You fail to grasp a simple analogy, What are you even talking about?

It's illustrating, very simply for you, the people are the ones who leave the guide, not the other way around as you seem to suggest with the Imam of our time. Nobody had a problem with it when Prophet Jesus was the guide to mankind, but suddenly it's a problem with the current Imam and guide to mankind. The Prophet (pbuhf) was not the guide for the Injeel, so not sure what point you are making with your comment, it is non-sensical.

Edited by dragonxx
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@The Green Knightbut don't be surprised if they're Wahhabis posing as "Zaydis" in order to stir up fitna between the two communities...Why aren't they preaching the gospel of Zaydism to the folks who really need it (i.e. Sunnis) ?...positive strides are being made in ME by Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas etc. and enemies lurk behind every corner...either that or they simply have poor akhlaq...seems like they always pose a query in a hostile manner (i.e. both guns blazing)

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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7 hours ago, Guest Shia-Zaydi said:

Brother I understand, where is the guidance of the 12th Imam in particular? Why is everyone beating around the bush, respectively. 

Firstly, I would say that we follow the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt collectively. The famous narration says that the first one of us is Muhammad, last one is Muhammad and the one in the middle is Muhammad, peace and blessings on all of them.

The guidance is therefore collective and not separated, consistently with the instructions of our prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Secondly if you're looking for specific instances of guidance during the imamate of the 12th (عليه السلام) then the instructions to his representatives during the minor occultation is a good example. 

Thirdly the role of the Imam is not yet complete. An essential part is yet to come, which will be the return from occultation. 

Finally, you seem to have skipped my previous question to you regarding the identity of the current Zaidi Imam. 

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