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In the Name of God بسم الله

Support for liberal Islam

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Guest Guest Mo

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Guest Guest Mo

Guys I feel very confused about what my personal opinions should be regarding abortion, hear me out. 

I am personally against abortion because it's haram and I'd never question God's decision. However, I feel that maybe I should support these things if I'm living in a secular non Muslim country and I'll explain why.

We believe that under certain conditions (not just because she feels like it), a mother can abort a first trimester baby because the soul has not entered it yet. So how can I logically tell a nonmuslim not to abort a first trimester baby when my own religion tells me that for the first 3 months it's just a clump of cells.

If a nonmuslim woman wants to abort in the first trimester for no reason, there's no way I can argue against it

Therefore I think I would be in favor of legalizing abortion in a WESTERN country since I can't push my personal religious beliefs into others. 

Is this the right way of thinking? 

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Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely killing them is a heinous sin. [17:31]

As for them not having the soul, there is still an identified (developing) human body, irrespective of the stage. As you may know a human is compromised of both the body and the soul, therefore, mere absence of the soul is not a warrant to kill. The presence of a soul may indicate a greater value in the sense that the indemnity would be greater on the transgressing mother - + cooperating father - but the principle of abomination remains, may Allah forgive us all. 

Don't be weak, why do you need to bend over to these heathens? If you have to compromise against your religion then leave the country/community and if you don't have the bravery to defend your religion or the killing of children then you could at least not say anything and reject it within your heart - do remember that enjoining good and forbidding evil is an obligation, so if someone does intend to kill their child you need to rebuke them in the same way you see someone carrying a knife and wanting to stab their child. 

Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. Say, “Allah’s guidance is the only ˹true˺ guidance.” And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah. [2:120]

Why you want to appease them is beyond me, they'll continue drawing you into their religion of godlessness, or at least leave you in a poor state of limbo. 

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13 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely killing them is a heinous sin. [17:31]

As for them not having the soul, there is still an identified (developing) human body, irrespective of the stage. As you may know a human is compromised of both the body and the soul, therefore, mere absence of the soul is not a warrant to kill. The presence of a soul may indicate a greater value in the sense that the indemnity would be greater on the transgressing mother - + cooperating father - but the principle of abomination remains, may Allah forgive us all. 

Don't be weak, why do you need to bend over to these heathens? If you have to compromise against your religion then leave the country/community and if you don't have the bravery to defend your religion or the killing of children then you could at least not say anything and reject it within your heart - do remember that enjoining good and forbidding evil is an obligation, so if someone does intend to kill their child you need to rebuke them in the same way you see someone carrying a knife and wanting to stab their child. 

Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. Say, “Allah’s guidance is the only ˹true˺ guidance.” And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah. [2:120]

Why you want to appease them is beyond me, they'll continue drawing you into their religion of godlessness, or at least leave you in a poor state of limbo. 

Its not that I'm just confused if we should impose our beliefs on others when we live in secular countries where religion and law is separated

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1 hour ago, Guest Guest Mo said:

Its not that I'm just confused if we should impose our beliefs on others when we live in secular countries where religion and law is separated

Imposition of belief is prohibited as per: 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

What we are obligated to do is:

The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. [9:71]

“O my dear son! Establish prayer, encourage what is good and forbid what is evil, and endure patiently whatever befalls you. Surely this is a resolve to aspire to. [31:!7]

Let there arise out of you a nation who invites to goodness and enjoin What is right and forbid What is evil: They are the one's to attain felicity. [3:110]

Within a western society, or a community which does not operate via the shariah we say:

1. Say, “O disbelievers.

2. I do not worship what you worship.

3. Nor do you worship what I worship.

4. Nor do I serve what you serve.

5. Nor do you serve what I serve.

6. You have your way, and I have my way.”

  • We make clear that we are Muslims
  • We don't worship their idols [Liberalism/Secularism]
  • We recognize that they don't subscribe to out worldview
  • We do not compromise our worldview for the sake of theirs
  • We do not ask them to (forcefully) compromise or follow our worldview [in a non-islamic society]
  • We follow the way of Allah, and you follow the way of your vain desires. 
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2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Where is the nafs bearing, air breathing child and fetus equivalency?

There is no equivalency, the idea is that the fetus in its developing stages is valued, albeit not to the degree of the one which is post 120 days. The ones who are most open to the idea of abortion are the Hanafis in which they permit it if the woman was raped and it causes unbearable psychological turmoil, as for the fetus having an effect on the livelihood of the mother this of course permits the abortion in any stage. This is an area of consensus between all Muslims.

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You can't impose your belief, for sure. And that's why even though I find abortion abhorrent, I don't support making it illegal (anywhere). Not because I believe in that phony "my body, my choice" argument, but because I know that imposing those laws never actually reduces abortions, it just brings them underground and can cause even more harm by having woman nearly die to get this backroom procedure. 

This means though that one should be supportive of other legislation that can reduce abortions. Such as the availability of controceptions, sex education, investing in woman's education, etc. 

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1 minute ago, hasanhh said:

l do not. lt is no different than dental or any other kind of medical procedure.

 

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2 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Imposition of belief is prohibited as per: 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

What we are obligated to do is:

The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. [9:71]

“O my dear son! Establish prayer, encourage what is good and forbid what is evil, and endure patiently whatever befalls you. Surely this is a resolve to aspire to. [31:!7]

Let there arise out of you a nation who invites to goodness and enjoin What is right and forbid What is evil: They are the one's to attain felicity. [3:110]

Within a western society, or a community which does not operate via the shariah we say:

1. Say, “O disbelievers.

2. I do not worship what you worship.

3. Nor do you worship what I worship.

4. Nor do I serve what you serve.

5. Nor do you serve what I serve.

6. You have your way, and I have my way.”

  • We make clear that we are Muslims
  • We don't worship their idols [Liberalism/Secularism]
  • We recognize that they don't subscribe to out worldview
  • We do not compromise our worldview for the sake of theirs
  • We do not ask them to (forcefully) compromise or follow our worldview [in a non-islamic society]
  • We follow the way of Allah, and you follow the way of your vain desires. 

If you believe that when why do you live in the United States? Why live in a kuffar, unclean society and support its "Crusader" armies that oppresses Muslims with your tax dollars? If your money is going to train troops that will invade Muslim lands and to stockpile bombs that will be dropped on Muslim houses then how do you reconcile that with "Nor do I serve what you serve"?

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6 hours ago, Guest Skeptical said:

If you believe that when why do you live in the United States? Why live in a kuffar, unclean society and support its "Crusader" armies that oppresses Muslims with your tax dollars? If your money is going to train troops that will invade Muslim lands and to stockpile bombs that will be dropped on Muslim houses then how do you reconcile that with "Nor do I serve what you serve"?

Irrespective of the ad-hominem attack you're trying to paint the Islamic belief still holds and is evidently quite coherent. 

But, if you're just dying to know about why I live in the west, to the point you're willing to derail your entire thread! Well frankly, I am flattered  :blush:

Unfortunately, as much as this may pain you more then it may pain me, I won't be able to write you an autobiography of myself with a particular focus of what brought me to the west and why I am still here. I will instead recommend looking into what the repercussions are of invading another nation for oil, placing a despot in power, and then coming back to overthrow said despot on false pretenses; you may then come to understand the enigma which is my presence within the west. 

6 hours ago, Guest Skeptical said:

tax dollars?

Well, when it comes to taxes the governmental claim is that they contribute to the defense of the nation, public services, as well as other corporations and amenities. That being said the nuances and particularities are heavily debated, discussed, and subject to reform, abrogation and change. In reality you won't ever have citizens within the U.S, or any other nation at that agreeing on where all their taxes go to. For example, us religious folk don't want to see our taxes supporting certain institutions, but we as citizens have the power to protest foreign injustices or immoral legislation, such as homosexual marriages. As Muslims we have an obligation to submit to the rule of the state that we are under via a social contract which is we will exercise our religion freely. Whenever my ability to be a practicing Muslim is endangered I am obligated to leave, the discussion is a lot more nuanced and ample examples can be given, but I don't even want to take the time to discuss matters with a confused 'liberal Muslim' who instead of showing some gratitude for having their question answered resorts to a pathetic ad-hominem attack. which in reality doesn't falsify any of my statements. The funny thing is you misunderstood what I even meant when quoting this supposed hypocritical statement of mine, but even if that was what I meant we can go down that route - as I briefly did.

As for your misunderstanding

6 hours ago, Guest Skeptical said:

how do you reconcile that with "Nor do I serve what you serve"?

Nor do I [a Muslim who believes in the laws of the Qur'an and the Shariah of Muhammad upon whom be peace] serve what you [believers in secular ideology wherein you are the makers and establishers of your own 'moral' code''] serve. 

This is a statement of not adopting creed, not compromising belief for the favor of serving secularism in the many ways and forms in which it is practiced. 

However, I do believe if it is possible to move back home (or to any Islamic country) then one ought to do so. I personally cannot, due to personal reasons alluded to via western hegemony. May Allah guide us all. 

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7 hours ago, Guest Skeptical said:

"Nor do I serve what you serve"?

Also, I don't know whether you are aware that I was quoting Surah-Alkafroon XD

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6 hours ago, Guest Guest Mo said:

You feel this way even in the second and third trimester?

1] You are demarcating times that l had not expressed.

2] How is a 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion emotionally different than a hernia operation, cholecystectomy, appendectomy or cesarean?

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4 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

emotion

It is not an idea of emotional severity, as much as it is that of moral significance depending on the stage/reason. 

http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/islam1.html

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9 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

It is not an idea of emotional severity, as much as it is that of moral significance depending on the stage/reason. 

http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/islam1.html

? "ensoulment" ?  Where does this come from? How is this any different than a simple inverse of "despiriting" that buddhists and early evilgelicals have used?  

For example: There are a wide variety of translations of Ecclesiastes 11:5, so l'II use the New American Standard:

"Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things."

This is obviously not only dated but reflects the limited knowledge of its own time. We now know the path of the winds from meteorology and we know how bones and flesh form in the womb from medical science. Basic research, just as in Job 39:1-2 where the time of birth for the wild goats (in October) was not known until the second half of the 20th Century.

This leaves the last part. We about never know the activity of God,(excepting the broad-brush kind of pronouncement). 

The "wide variety of translations" l writ above: the most often cited follows the "you do not know when l (God) send my spirit into the womb" rendition.  From this, most counter-arguments to the evilgelicals claims of immorality are based.

l did a Quran and Hadith search and "ensoulment" does not exist in Quran or the Sunnah. l do not know about Shi'a traditions.

So, "ensoulment" is a contrivance. Another the-nafs-is-present-at-the-moment-of-conception pontification, ignoring miscarriages and such.

l suspect that "ensoulment" was dreamed up for no other reason than so these dreamers will have a  palatable platitude for evilgelical acceptance.

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14 hours ago, hasanhh said:

ensoulment

The word 'ensoulment' is seeking to convey the Arabic term nafkh-al-ruh, the blowing of the spirit. 

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5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The word 'ensoulment' is seeking to convey the Arabic term nafkh-al-ruh, the blowing of the spirit. 

ln Quran, this revealed action is for Miriam -(عليه السلام). Ayats 66:12 and 21:91; and for Adam -(عليه السلام). Ayat 15:29; but not his wife Ayat 7:189.

So there is no basis to extend from what is revealed about Adam -(عليه السلام). and lsa -(عليه السلام). to other people.

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5 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

but not his wife Ayat 7:189.

Adam and Eve were one flesh upon creation and reception of this spirit, afterwards she was physically separated via the ribcage and another spirit being blown within her wouldn't make sense.

6 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

So there is no basis to extend from what is revealed about Adam -(عليه السلام). and lsa

Adam was an exterior creation and Isa was an interior creation, both of whom received a spirit, therefore, it was made an example out of their particularities each creation would have this blowing of the spirit. Allah knows best. 

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8 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

the ribcage

That is O.T., not Quran.

9 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Adam was an exterior creation and Isa was an interior creation,

How can "Kun fayakun" have an "interior" and "exterior".

Or, "interior" and "exterior" to what ? ? ? ?

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Kun fayakun

“Be and it is” is indicative of an outcome which is either (a) instant or (b) gradual. 

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

That is O.T., not Quran.

This is Hadith, there are Shia/Sunni Hadiths which attest to this. 

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Or, "interior" and "exterior" to what ? ? ? ?

Interior - creation within the womb 

Exterior - creation outside the womb

This is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) showing that he is قادر على كل شيءٍ able to do anything.

For example, creating a human with no parents, with one parent, and with two parents. 

Allah likewise created a human within the womb and outside the womb.

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Citation !

Can you take my word for it :D

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