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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are we losing Islam to books of fiqhi rulings?

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Wa alaikum as salam

Good points. I agree.

What I would say is that sincerity is important and has been heavily emphasized. 

If one genuinely wants guidance and salvation through Islam then they will find it inshaAllah.

If our mindset is based on picking and choosing, selectively interpreting and using islam more as a sociopolitical cover rather than something to bring us closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then we end up in the situation that you have described.

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3 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Can anyone on this forum answer that? Is there a sound rational standard to differentiate them? 

I think you answer your own question with your point 2.

Fiqh on it's own is technical jurisprudence. One cannot practically issue rulings on akhlaq because it isn't a tangible concept. 

However, it is understood that islam is not limited to a set of rules, and that next to jurisprudence there are ethics and etiquette. 

If one wants to seek closeness to God, then fiqh is simply drawing the first lines of the framework (the 'red lines') within which spirituality, ethics, etiquette will allow the worshipper to evolve. 

On the other hand if we are only practicing 'social' islam, in the sense that we only do it to fit into society or for cultural/traditional reasons, without caring about closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then fiqh simply becomes a sort of 'cover' which the individual will gladly try to twist, turn and manipulate just to appear 'compliant'.

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4 hours ago, starlight said:

Salam everyone,

I have read and participated in two threads today both related to temporary marriage(Mutah) and going through those threads brought clarity to an issue that had been subconsciously bothering me for some time now. 

Islam, as we all know and agree is more than a religion. It's a way of life. Fiqh forms just one part of our religion.Fiqh mainly comprises basic and necessary laws. The obligatory ones are concerned with the minimally necessary conditions of human perfection and there are others discussing makruh, mustahib acts. 

But there is a second set of rules -Akhlaq, which governs both the world and the soul and provides us with all the rules we need to reach the highest levels of perfection.

 

 So let's strive to incorporate rules of kindness into our religious practices as true followers of a Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who was mercy to mankind and our Imams(عليه السلام) who were embodiments of generosity, dignity, and grace even with their enemies. Let's not become Muslims who reduce Islam to a set of jurisprudential laws.

 

Wasalam,

While I understand appreciate the sentiment behind this topic and this entire reasoning, I still have to respectfully reject this entire analysis and argument because it falls flat. The entire argument is that one should not reduce Islam to a set of laws and principles whilst also have a focus on Akhlaq which merely translates to etiquette/mannerisms. The reason this argument makes no sense is because even your Akhlaq has limits and rules of their own derived from hadith/events of the Masoom(عليه السلام) and Quran which are delivered to us by Jurists such as Ayotallahs. For example you mentioned two things in your paragraph, One example you gave was charity and the other you gave was kindness. There are certain people you cannot be charitable with for example enemies of Ahylebayt(عليه السلام) and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). There are certain people you cannot be kind to for example you cannot walk with or behind an oppressor, you cannot shake hands with an oppressor, you cannot say Salam to an oppressor. Aren't these jurisprudential laws applied to your very own examples? So how can you say that we should not only focus on rules/practices and also focus on kindness when even your kindness has limits and rules of it's own? The second example that I would like to give is that Kindness is a very subjective term, what is considered kind mannerisms in one part of the world are considered rude in another like in certain societies, if you don't look into the eyes of the opposite gender whilst conversing(You're rude.), if you don't shake hands with the opposite gender(You're rude) which brings us to the term "Islamic Kindness". Putting Islamic in front of the word Kindness already puts limits and rules once again derived from jurisprudential laws. So how can you separate the jurisprudence from Akhlaq when the latter is derived from the former? It makes no sense to me, sorry to say.

4 hours ago, starlight said:

 

- One of the two threads I referred to earlier, pregnancy after mutah. According to fiqhi rules(Sistani) it's not obligatory on the man to support the wife financially during pregnancy but what does Akhlaq set of rules say? 

- The other thread, mutah with a prostitute. According to fiqhi rules it's permissible to have mutah with a different prostitute every night but would a man following Islamic ethics and having some dignity and self respect allow himself to be in such a situation? 

 

 

 

 Now, you see this is the real problem with the Ummah in general. Everyone suffers from a spiritual disease called "spiritual arrogance". They are the Judges, Jury and Executioners of other people socially. When Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't punish people or call people "subhuman" for something makruh, then what has given us the right to do so? The easy answer is that you're suffering from spiritual arrogance which is that you think you're better than other people because you perform wajibat and keep up to date on certain things. It makes you an epicenter of supreme morality where you can pass judgements on people all day that person X wants to do this gray act, Let's go attack him on this. You describe other people as "If a man chooses to eat something halal that's been lying in a cesspool over going hungry for some time ,I agree with you, it's their call." which basically means you referred to the woman who is a prostitute as a "cesspool" because you think you're better than her or more connected to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) than her. But you have forgotten that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) looks after every child of Adam(عليه السلام). You have also already made the judgement yourself that I'm more closer to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because I do XYZ. Why do you even need a God when you can call the shots for God yourself? Did you know that the mothers of certain Hebrew Prophets(Peace be upon them) were prostitutes? And no, they weren't given this honor because they decided to not be prostitutes. They were given this honor because they helped people whilst living as a prostitute. So you indirectly insulted the honor of those Messengers by insulting their mothers. You know what spiritual humility is? Spiritual humility is saying "This person may be closer to God than me." It's not deciding for yourself who is close to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or not. Yes, it's good to do the wajibat, give charity and do XYZ but don't usurp the right of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which is judgement especially in a case of makruh or halal. When Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) did not even give Prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) the right to judge people? Then what has made us so arrogant that we can do so? The answer is lack of humility. Humility is one of the stones of Islam. There's no akhlaq without it. 

Side note: Now there are certain people you can infact feel better than from for example people cursed by the Masoom(عليه السلام). People who have committed oppression and other sins which led to the harm of a number of people. Yes. But we cannot from someone who thought of doing something gray. Instead, one should fear his own sins. Who knows when the veil on your sins will drop? Keep up the judgement, Keep up the harsh attitude. Sooner or later, that justice will catch up to you in the form of exposing your true self to society. So once again I'll say as our Prophet Jesus(عليه السلام) said to us "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone."

Now for the final arguement:

4 hours ago, starlight said:

Let's not become Muslims who reduce Islam to a set of jurisprudential laws.

 

 
This is impossible because our religion is governed by a set of rules for everything from Akhlaq like I said above to literally everything else. Drinking water, putting on clothes, using the bathroom, eating, Combing hair, Brushing your teeth. Literally everything. The sunnah is basically just a list of rules which the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) followed and it's better for us to follow them but if we don't, we don't get punished for it. But at the end of the day, it is rules. Islam is a religion of following rules and it's a religion of emotion as well. Those rules are designed to bring out the best of you. This isn't a feel good religion. This is a religion which has put laws onto everything. It's a challenge. It's a trial. Some days it's very easy. Some days it's very hard. The mountains of this earth said they would crumble into a thousand pieces if they accepted Islam. Alas, we're human beings. And sometimes we're weak, sometimes we're very strong. But being a human being and religion, both things are simply journeys; where they end is up to you.
 
Wasalam
 
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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

Akhlaq which merely translates to etiquette/mannerisms.

See this is the problem. We think of something inconsequential and minor as compared to fiqh where as in my opinion one cannot exist without the other. The first example I have, RasulAllah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tried to work on the  basic Akhlaq of Arabs before Salat made obligatory. 

The long paragraph you have written after that makes no sense. It full of contradictions and personal attacks. I will ignore the latter but 

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

They were given this honor because they helped people whilst living as a prostitute.

If this is true so is this not Akhlaq? 

I am saying the same, don't limit Islam to the jurisprudential rulebook. 

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

charity and the other you gave was kindness. There are certain people you cannot be charitable with for example enemies of Ahylebayt(عليه السلام) and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). There are certain people you cannot be kind to for example you cannot walk with or behind an oppressor

Going by your own argument, are they not children of Adam (عليه السلام) who Allah will look after. 

Also I can give you examples from lives of Ahlebayt where they were charitable and kind towards their enemies. Not one, not two but hundreds. :)

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

it's better for us to follow them but if we don't, we don't get punished for it.

I don't know that. If an orphan in family sleeps hungry while we have a full stomach I am not sure if that's going to be wiped away from our accounts as null.

And why does the benchmark of every act has to be reward and punishment - the worship of a businessman in Imam's words. Can't we go above than that and perform acts to gain closeness to Allah. This is the premise of my whole argument. We have started putting every act on the scale of halal, Haram, reward punishment, anything beyond that ,if we want to help someone "but it's not obligatory, we probably aren't going to get punished if don't do it so if it's convenient(which more often it's not), if it fits in our lifestyle we will do it"

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

You describe other people as "If a man chooses to eat something halal that's been lying in a cesspool over going hungry for some time ,I agree with you, it's their call." which basically means you referred to the woman who is a prostitute as a "cesspool

Cesspool is a referral to the life of brothels.

By all means marry a prostitute but then give her a life of dignity,give her the respect and social standing that a wife deserves, help her get out of the gutter where women have to survive by selling their bodies. Don't use those women to satisfy uncontrollable urges in temporary marriage and then push her back there when you are ready for permanent marriage because she is not good enough to be a permanent wife for a 'socially respectable religious man'. A piece of flesh to be discarded when a better alternative becomes available. Is this good Akhlaq?  and don't even try to argue this because this is what men have practising since the start of times. Don't ride the high horse of humility and being non judgemental when the reason to accept the prostitute in one's life is purely selfish. 

Smh.... 

Anyway, all I can tell you is that if Akhlaq was something that insignificant Alhulybayt wouldn't have been practicing it every single day of their lives.

 

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By Sheikh Shomali. 

So Fiqh mainly comprises basic and necessary laws whose obedience IS required from all Muslims, and is considered the first step towards development To commit oneself to the laws of Fiqh is not a difficult undertaking, as Islam itself is not a difficult religion.

However, there always are individuals who observe the mandatory laws of fiqh, yet upon getting a glimpse of the Light, want nothing more than to fly to the Flame. For these enraptured souls, Islam has provided akhlaq. They then make mandatory upon themselves deeds which are highly recommended, or mustahab . In addition to performing these recommended tasks, they obey other laws of Akhlaq, and make. unlawful upon themselves that which is not forbidden in Fiqh, yet somehow might be an obstacle on the way to the Light, to perfection.

Therefore there might be thoughts or spiritual qualities which are not directly forbidden in Fiqh, but prohibited in Akhlaq. 

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We need to teach tazkiyya (spiritual purification) and Zuhood (non materialism) more.

These are practical ways to improve yourself.

Unfortunately its either a discussion about fiqh and hadith or extreme levels of "spirituality"  (Irfan/Sufism)

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7 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

How can it be that something is good to do by akhlaq but not even be considered mustahab, or in some cases wajib? How can a thing be bad akhlaq but not be considered makhrooh or haraam?

My understanding is that these acts are the real test of dunya and a lot of people are going to be left very shocked on the day of Judgement. For example, Jealousy is not punishable under fiqh but 'it eats away good deeds like fire eats wood' so people who go only by the halal-haram-mustahib- makruh set of rules might be surprised to see a lot of good deeds vanishing on that day because of something they knew they weren't going to get punished for as per fiqh.

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46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

The long paragraph you have written after that makes no sense. It full of contradictions and personal attacks.

It does make sense. If there are contradictions, show me and I'll work them out with you. There are no personal attacks. Spiritual arrogance is a real sickness and disease which millions of Muslims suffer from including yourself unfortunately. I use to as well when I thought my amal and practice made me better than everyone, that I could pass judgement of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) onto other people such as calling people "subhuman" etc. But I recovered from it by practicing humility. So can you. That's why perhaps my words make no sense to you.

46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

Going by your own argument, are they not children of Adam (عليه السلام) who Allah will look after. 

 

Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does look after oppressors by fulfilling their needs/desires in this world so they don't complain in the next.

46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

Also I can give you examples from lives of Ahlebayt where they were charitable and kind towards their enemies. Not one, not two but hundreds. :)

 

 

You can but sadly it's forbidden for us to help oppressors. So there goes your passive aggressive smiley out the water.

46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

I am saying the same, don't limit Islam to the jurisprudential rulebook. 

 

Anyway, all I can tell you is that if Akhlaq was something that insignificant Alhulybayt wouldn't have been practicing it every single day of their lives.

 

Akhlaq comes from the same jurisprudential rulebook you claim to argue against. Once again, you can't separate the two so your words make no sense. You take your akhlaq from the rule book as your akhlaq has rules unless you want to coin your own version of Islam. Go ahead.

 

46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

By all means marry a prostitute but then give her a life of dignity,give her the respect and social standing that a wife deserves, help her get out of the gutter where women have to survive by selling their bodies. Don't use those women to satisfy uncontrollable urges in temporary marriage and then push her back there when you are ready for permanent marriage because she is not good enough to be a permanent wife for a 'socially respectable religious man'. A piece of flesh to be discarded when a better alternative becomes available. Is this good Akhlaq?  and don't even try to argue this because this is what men have practising since the start of times. Don't ride the high horse of humility and being non judgemental when the reason to accept the prostitute in one's life is purely selfish. 

 

 

Not all prostitutes are chained/enslaved in brothels. Many women who practice prostitution are living their own independent lives and don't need anyone to save them. They solicit online mostly and have many forms of additional income such as pornography etc. A majority of prostitutes are also married with children or have boyfriends. They aren't being forced to sell their bodies, they do it like it's a job. You can feel free to research this. What you're referring to are women who are in unfortunate situations like traficking. A majority of women/men/trans in Amsterdam/German brothels are there willingly on their own accord and would laugh at your words about needing someone to rescue them. Some women and men take short-cuts in life to achieve wealth or fame. Been happening since the start of time, no big deal. Everyone is accountable for their own actions. Life really isn't as dramatic as you imagine it to be.

 

46 minutes ago, starlight said:

 

 Can't we go above than that and perform acts to gain closeness to Allah. This is the premise of my whole argument.

 

 

And that's where your argument falls flat. You can't perform actions which get you closer to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without knowing what those actions are and without knowing the certain set of rules that accompany those actions without Fiqh.

Wasalam.

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

subhuman

You are very obviously stuck on this word. There are narrations from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which liken certain sexual practises between husband and wife to sex between animals (donkeys and birds, to be specific)so I don't know why you have a problem with with me using the term?? Maybe you are unaware of those narrations or they don't bother you because after all it's halal and that's all matters. If it's the former please do some reading and if it's the latter then this thread is not for you. 

This thread is about practises(a whole group of them, not just sexual intercourse)  which do not come under strict fiqhi ruling but nevertheless carry good and bad effects on spirituality and human soul both in this world and the next and my concern that those are getting neglected since many people now tend to focus on fiqhi matters only because of the cut and dry rulings that are available. 

If you want to discuss permissibility of coitus under different situations please post in the Mutah with immoral woman(it's open) or start a new thread. Thank you.

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On 1/31/2021 at 2:44 AM, starlight said:

My understanding is that these acts are the real test of dunya and a lot of people are going to be left very shocked on the day of Judgement. For example, Jealousy is not punishable under fiqh but 'it eats away good deeds like fire eats wood' so people who go only by the halal-haram-mustahib- makruh set of rules might be surprised to see a lot of good deeds vanishing on that day because of something they knew they weren't going to get punished for as per fiqh.

Yes but already almost all committed people know that jealousy is haram, everyone knows that backbitting is haram, lying, being impulsive, being arrogant, being rude, arguing with parents, not abstaining from doing something wrong or haram when no one is watching, not knowing certain fiqh rules altho they are couple of buttons away available online (that's called جهل مركّب per fiqh), etc...

The problem isn't about not knowing but rather having scholars Not emphasizing on these subjects strongly enough. Our sharia is a therapy when it comes to all forms of struggles but do we really use it this way or do we use the alternate solutions that are man made... This is how the issue should be addressed.

When i entered the islamic society most of the things that i saw were norms and traditions, of course this is not the case with committed people who comprehend truly religion and their duty. But i'm also talking about people who pray fast and form a huge part of the shia society.

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7 hours ago, El Cid said:

Did you know that the mothers of certain Hebrew Prophets(Peace be upon them) were prostitutes

What? Kindly provide me a source for this info.

I'm not sure if you missed the point of the OP but she is talking about ethics which is clearly an issue that we need to address more among the muslims now and you are talking about muslims judging muslims.

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Bismehe Ta3ala

:salam:

Islam and akhlaq go hand in hand.  A beleiver can't have one without the other.  People have rights over us.  When it comes to fiqh, it is necessary to know what applies to us and study it.  For example, if I'm a business woman it is wajab for me to understand and apply the shariah laws of business.  Otherwise, it isn't necessary for me to read about it (besides the scholar, or whoever is afflicted with this subject).  

How many times we have known a person who is like an angel outside, but within his household he is Pharoah?

 This individual can do all the wajibat and stay away from grave sins, but is that really enough?  If he/she mistreats their spouse and children, who here thinks Allah would be pleased with this person.  Absolutely not!

 

Quote

From a narration by Sa'eed ibn Jubair, another cause is one having bad manners with his wife, speaking to her roughly rather than with kindness and consideration. Whatever the reason may be, we are assured by Imam‎ Ja`far as-Sadiq (ع) that "No believer is spared the grave's constriction," according to p. 221, Vol. 6 of the same reference. On p. 221, Vol. 6 of Bihar al-Anwar and on p. 74, Vol. 2 of Safeenat al-Bihar, Imam‎ as-Sadiq (ع) is quoted as having said: "The grave's constriction is atonement for a bliss wasted by a believer." 

The Holy Prophet (S) remarked about cause of the squeeze of grave that Saad had to suffer:

“He was harsh and bad-tempered with his wife.”

After death, the next life is barzakh, and punishment and reward will begin.

https://www.al-islam.org/barzakh-purgatory-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/reward-and-punishment-barzakh

 

The believers need to show mercy towards each other, and show firmness against the deniers of truth.  When giving charity, do you know in Islam there is priority of who to give your charity first? 

Islam tells us give it to your relatives before strangers.  Give your charity to the one who does salat before the one who purposefully neglects it.  Give your charity to the one who wears hijab, before the one who denies hijab and doesn't practice it.  Afterall, giving charity is to seek closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and act on what He likes.  How do we do this?  By following the fiqh.

 

 

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

 

48:29 MUHAMMAD is God's Apostle; and those who are [truly] with him are firm and unyielding [43] towards all deniers of the truth, [yet] full of mercy towards one another. [44] Thou canst see them bowing down, pros­trating themselves [in prayer], seeking favour with God and [His] goodly acceptance: their marks are on their faces, traced by prostration. [45] This is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel: [46] [they are] like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and [in the end] stands firm upon its stem, delighting the sowers. [Thus will God cause the believers to grow in strength,] so that through them He might confound the deniers of the truth. [47] [But] unto such of them as may [yet] attain to faith and do righteous deeds, God has promised forgiveness and a reward supreme. [48]

The 43rd greater sin, Insulting a Beleiver 

 

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-3-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/forty-third-greater-sin

 

I want to end with this hadith, which made me emotional.  I beleive the more we love Ahlulbayt and understand how they treated other people, the more we need to resemble them and follow in their footsteps the best we can.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) fulfill your hajjat.

Allama Majlisi in his Mahasin quotes Imam Baqir and Imam Sadiq that when a believer dies, six figures enter his grave along with him. Out of these, one is more illuminated, pure, and fragrant than the others. One stands on the right side, the second on the left, the third in front, the fourth near the head, the fifth near the legs, and the one more illuminated shelters on the head. From whichever side the wrath of Allah comes, the figure on that side defends the body.

The one who is more illuminated asks these other figures: “May Allah bless you all, who are you?” The one on the right side says, “I am the prayers (Salat) which he recited in his lifetime.” The one on the left side says, “I am the charity which he gave while alive.” The one standing in the front says, “I am his fasts he undertook.” The one near the head says, “I am the Hajj and Umrah which he performed in his life.” The one standing near the legs says, “I am the kindness which he performed with his brother believer.”

Then all these faces turn towards the more illuminated one and ask it as to who it is. He replies, “I am the love for the Ahlul Bayt which he carried in his heart.” (Manazelul Akhera)  https://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/what-happens-after-death-life-in-the-grave.html

 

 

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN ALLAH 

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Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refused to eat, wear and use otherwise halal things that the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not. Disliked the ways of non-Muslims even their big moustaches, their clothing, and *ahem* cultural things *cough* and instead kept on one same way through and through.

So think again. Not only you will have to empty your pockets each evening, as they did, labor hard, suffer hunger and extreme poverty, you will also lose cultural stuff like lighting oil lamps under alams, building minarets, etc etc etc. -Everything- the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) / Imams did not. :P

As a result, those we think our own will hate us, call us names, even stone us or beat us if they could (will need Ali (عليه السلام) and Hamza (عليه السلام) for physical help), boycott us, not marry our children, and so on.

So I hope everyone is prepared to go all the way.

Edited by The Green Knight
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23 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refused to eat, wear and use otherwise halal things that the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not. Disliked the ways of non-Muslims even their big moustaches, their clothing, and *ahem* cultural things *cough* and instead kept on one same way through and through.

So think again. Not only you will have to empty your pockets each evening, as they did, labor hard, suffer hunger and extreme poverty, you will also lose cultural stuff like lighting oil lamps under alams, building minarets, etc etc etc. -Everything- the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) / Imams did not. :P

Imam told us already that we can't mimic him in his practices.  

They are perfection and we look up to them as role models.  

Alhamd'Allah for this deen.

 

Post edit

Who are you referring?

And what happened, what incidents?  Please give examples.  

Edited by Laayla
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12 hours ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

What? Kindly provide me a source for this info.

I'm not sure if you missed the point of the OP but she is talking about ethics which is clearly an issue that we need to address more among the muslims now and you are talking about muslims judging muslims.

I'm not a walking talking hadith book so sadly I cannot. It's from a collection of stories we have from the time of Bani Israel. There are two stories about prostitutes being forgiven. One is Prostitute does XYZ, gets forgiven, dies and goes to heaven the next night. One is Prostitute does XYZ, gets forgiven and gets honored by a few hebrew Prophets coming from her linage. 

The first event is from the life of Musa(عليه السلام). The second event is before the time of Musa(عليه السلام). If you start researching and reading more hadith, you'll come across them eventually. I only read from Sahih books.

Not judging people harshly and not attacking their character is a part of ethics.

Wasalam.

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On 31/01/2021 at 5:20 AM, starlight said:

Salam everyone,

I have read and participated in two threads today both related to temporary marriage(Mutah) and going through those threads brought clarity to an issue that had been subconsciously bothering me for some time now. 

Islam, as we all know and agree is more than a religion. It's a way of life. Fiqh forms just one part of our religion.Fiqh mainly comprises basic and necessary laws. The obligatory ones are concerned with the minimally necessary conditions of human perfection and there are others discussing makruh, mustahib acts. 

But there is a second set of rules -Akhlaq, which governs both the world and the soul and provides us with all the rules we need to reach the highest levels of perfection.

For the former there are risalas from marjas but for the latter we need to refer to Thaqalayn (Quran and Ahlulbayt) and while most of us have our marja's tawzeehs on mental speed dials, bookmarked and on WhatsApp hotlines I feel we are badly failing at the latter. Pick up any SC thread and this is how most discussions go - allowed by marja,not permissible, Haram, halal, wajib, that's it. My point is we have closed our minds limited ourselves to tawzeehs mainly out of laziness and apathy. Our principle parameter is now Tawzeeh not Quran and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

Fiqhi rulings are important no doubt but it's Akhlaq(ethics)that forms the essence of Islam.

- Salat wasn't even made obligatory until the twelfth year of Prophethood. Not trying to trivialise Salat or other acts of worship but just saying that there was some things other than Salat that our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was preaching for a decade - Kindness,mercy,forgiveness, honesty, generosity, decency.

- No where in a risalah you will find: if a man dies leaving behind young children it's obligatory on the Uncles and grandfather to take care of the orphans. So a person who limits himself to marjas rulings - permissible/halal/haram/not obligatory could just say ,'It's not obligatory, I have a choice whether I want to look after those kids or not.'But if we study the Quran looking after orphans has been emphasized so many times. If we look at Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) Imam Ali(عليه السلام) was the 'father of orphans'. Muhammad bin Abu Bakr wasn't his son, going by fiqhi rules one has no obligation towards his step children but going by the ethical set of rules he(عليه السلام) brought him up like his own son.

- Salat ul Layl - not obligatory in fiqh but necessary if one wants to soar to spiritual heights. Quran tells Muslims to spend a part of their night standing in night prayers (chap 73)

- One of the two threads I referred to earlier, pregnancy after mutah. According to fiqhi rules(Sistani) it's not obligatory on the man to support the wife financially during pregnancy but what does Akhlaq set of rules say? 

- The other thread, mutah with a prostitute. According to fiqhi rules it's permissible to have mutah with a different prostitute every night but would a man following Islamic ethics and having some dignity and self respect allow himself to be in such a situation? 

- Fiqh tells you the obligatory financial duties are just Zakat and Khums. Akhlaq is Imam Sajjad(عليه السلام) carrying sacks of food on his back to distribute to the poor.

- Fiqh says nothing about helping single mothers. Akhlaq is Imam Ali(عليه السلام) kneading bread and cooking food for the widow and children of the man martyred in Siffeen. 

And there are countless other examples. What brother @Muhammed Ali said is something for all of us to ponder upon 

 

 So let's strive to incorporate rules of kindness into our religious practices as true followers of a Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who was mercy to mankind and our Imams(عليه السلام) who were embodiments of generosity, dignity, and grace even with their enemies. Let's not become Muslims who reduce Islam to a set of jurisprudential laws.

 

Walekum assalaam,

Very well said sister. Great points. I mean extremely beautiful.

This is a real problem. 

The purpose of Akhlaaq and Fiqh is different.

Fiqh - It is there to make lives easy in the fold of Islam and tell the people what is the red line. Fiqhi issues mostly tell the people the minimal they should do to avoid haraam. But we see it as mainstream and just focus on that part. 

Akhlaaq/Amaal - This part is important, it deals with the essence of Islam. The core of Islam. For example, a person who is working on Akhlaq has levelled up. 

Come on, we should not sit on the borderline and stay satisfied with the minimal. We pray 17 rakaat while we can pray 51. We don't focus on cleanliness more than just paak and najis rulings dictated in Fiqh. Etiquettes of eating, drinking. Akhlaq says: Take out some pennies for charity and alms everyday before fajr. While we don't consider that because Fiqh doesn't make it obligatory. There are sooo many great rewards for all the mustahabb acts but we never focus on that part. We don't focus upon etiquettes of speech, etiquettes of sitting, walking etc. Akhlaq says to start every work by saying Bismillah. After completion of work, say Alhumdulillah. But if you act like that today, people will call you 'moulvi'. As if only a 'Moulana' should live like this. 

What can one say.

I would not impose this on scholars. They are doing great works mashallah. But it is our mistake. We don't give priority to our faith. We just try to achieve the minimal.

For us:

Wajib : Ohh that's necessary so finish it up by hook or by crook.

Mustahabb : Man, that's not wajib! No need.

Makrooh : Ohh it is Makrooh, not haraam. So, no problem if we do it.

Haraam : Careful. It is haraam. But them comes up our local ijtehaad that "We don't mean it. We never knew that it is haraam."

Mubah : Something unknown.

 

Anyways, I have created a thread of Hadith which our mostly related and focussed on Akhlaq. 

This is here, whoever wants to go through it:

 

One more thread I added about the signs of a believer:

 

We decided that certainly we will add hadith and Quranic verses on them. So, you can join on it and go through it in detail. But sadly sister, to the second one, I was unable to add something new.

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and protect you.

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10 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

So think again. Not only you will have to empty your pockets each evening, as they did, labor hard, suffer hunger and extreme poverty, you will also lose cultural stuff like lighting oil lamps under alams, building minarets, etc etc etc. -Everything- the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) / Imams did not. :P

It doesn't have to be all or none. We can try to do something.

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One more point to add. We should emphasize on these threads a lot now. They are good for learning and discussions.

Such discussions are healthy and for most of the part they are less prone to personal attacks. 

Tbh, I am fed up of those Shia-Sunni threads. But on S.C and everywhere they grab a lot of attention. 

This needs to end. Debates are useful no problem but 'reinventing the wheel' is useless. 

We should focus more on:

1. Topics on Akhlaaq or core meaning of a quranic verse and Hadith. 

2. Questions that require deep contemplation. 

3. Helping people over here that our actually in need. Many threads over here are where new people and reverts ask for help and are really need. 

So, such things should be concentrated more IMHO.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only guide. 

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On 31/01/2021 at 2:07 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

We need to teach tazkiyya (spiritual purification) and Zuhood (non materialism) more.

These are spiritual stages actually. Among these I just know the lowest which is Taqwa (God consciousness). 

To achieve these stages we need to work upon fiqh, akhlaq, Irfan etc.

 

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I had specific incidences in mind when I started this thread. Maybe I have not been able to get my point across well so I will share  a few examples

1. A man passed away due to Covid last month. He ran a medium size bookstore, which is going to get closed down now. He left behind a wife (who is a housewife) and two kids(one in school, other just started college). With some passive income, they will be able to just make ends meet or maybe not, giving the economic crisis and inflation. The widow's brother just bought a second SUV, their third car, just because ''kids were insisting and I can never say no to my children, I love them so much". He might contribute something later to his nephews and nieces education, God knows, but at the time when the wife was struggling with grief and financial worries, showing off your new car and expecting them to be happy in their happiness wasn't the best course of action. Maybe setting the money aside to pay for the children's education and reassuring his sister of support would have been better. But 'it's not haram to buy a SUV' and sister isn't exactly homeless or starving and "it's not an obligation on me" 

2. Newly married couple living with in laws, wife new in town without family, ended up in a medical emergency while husband was travelling. No one from inlaws took her to a doctor. When the issue was brought up when religious husband returned home he said, "according to islam it's not an obligation on my parents to take my wife to a doctor". No points for guessing how the marriage went.

3. I was at the dentist's, sitting in the waiting room that was cramped due to some ongoing renovation. It was my turn, when another woman sitting there decided to offer namaz right between me and the door, completely blocking my way. I politely pointed out that if she could delay it for 2 minutes, otherwise I couldn't be able to get up. She snapped at me very aggressively, 'aap mujhe namaz se mana ker rahein hain' (you are stopping me from offering namaz??) I didn't want to pick a fight so I told her to go ahead. Nurse, dentist and me all had to wait for her to finish. Happy Namaz to her. :P 

4. Father died, left behind two little kids and no source of income. Children received nothing from their well off paternal grandfather because in fiqh, 'the child who dies doesn't have a share in inheritance obviously' and Grandfather was written off as having done nothing wrong as per religion. 

There are more,but I am running out of time. These are all situations which I know well so 'maybe there was more to the situation' can't be used an a counter argument. All are people who seemingly care about religion but fail at Akhlaq IMO. 

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

 

Tbh, I am fed up of those Shia-Sunni threads. But on S.C and everywhere they grab a lot of attention. 

 

If it were me, I'd just close the shia-sunni thread and keep it as an archive for people to read. How many times are people going to debate the first 3 caliphs, Aisha, muwaiya. I went to the topics in 2004-2008 era of SC in that subsection. The topics were the same. I went to the 2010-2018 era, the topics I mentioned were still the same. I went to the current era, the topics were still the same. It's a vicious cycle of the same junk which has been going on for 17 years now lol. It's not productive for anyone whether you're a shia or sunni. 

 

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14 hours ago, El Cid said:

I only read from Sahih books.

You know these are from sunni books right? To the sunna sect, prophets also make mistakes and are not infallible.

And in shia we know that the lineage from prophet Adam to prophet Mohammad is pure.

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:16 AM, El Cid said:

Did you know that the mothers of certain Hebrew Prophets(Peace be upon them) were prostitutes?

Sorry but you cannot say something like that without providing sources it would be considered blasphemous otherwise to suggest that some of the Prophets of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were children of fornication and had fornicators/adulterers as mothers.

To my knowledge there are no Prophets of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who were born out of fornication or adultery from a prostitute.

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16 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Sorry but you cannot say something like that without providing sources it would be considered blasphemous otherwise to suggest that some of the Prophets of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were children of fornication and had fornicators/adulterers as mothers.

To my knowledge there are no Prophets of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who were born out of fornication or adultery from a prostitute.

Salam, You and El-Cid are both kinda correct.

ln the 0.T., prostitution was used as one description of idolatry.

Examples:  Context Genesis 35:25, Rachael is the mother of Yusef -(عليه السلام). and Benjamin. Yet Rachael was an idolatress as recounted in Genesis 31:19, 31:32-34.

Ezekiel 16 with the word prostitute in verse 15. Then the word prostitute  is in Jeremiah 3, but you need to start reading with Chapter 2 to get the context.

ln short, idolatry is ranked as prostitution in the 0.T.   Despicable conduct.

This is not an unusual situation --as Quran reveals at Ayat 66:10.

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Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum 

To say that the mothers of the Prophets of Islam were prostitutes is a huge red flag.  I've never read or heard anyone say such a claim, except until now.  

The onus is on you Brother @El Cidto provide with the source and evidence.  Otherwise, we throw your statement to the wall, meaning it's invalid.  

Brother @hasanhh

We are referring to prostitution in this day and age as selling your body for money.  Not as an idolatrous.  And of course, our sources are Quran, hadiths of Rasoul Allah and Imams.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN ALLAH 

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Why this and not those l-am-looking-for-permission-to-do-something-l should-not mutah threads?

Mutah is a fiqhi issue. Fiqh is the right of every Shi'a. Threads which lead to online sect verbal violence are not. They aren't even discussions, they are just competitions on who can throw the most dirt onto another person's face with no one there to listen to any reason or anything. And you can't un-do decades of religion of someone with just one topic in a few hours so there's no point in a shi'a trying to convince sunni's of shi'a islam or vice versa.

6 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Sorry but you cannot say something like that without providing sources it would be considered blasphemous otherwise to suggest that some of the Prophets of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were children of fornication and had fornicators/adulterers as mothers.

To my knowledge there are no Prophets of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who were born out of fornication or adultery from a prostitute.

No idea where I said Prophets were born out of fornication or adultery. I said this: "One is Prostitute does XYZ, gets forgiven, dies and goes to heaven the next night. One is Prostitute does XYZ, gets forgiven and gets honored by a few hebrew Prophets coming from her linage." Both stories show that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgave them whilst they were prostitutes because of something they did. One died after the Karam of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). One became pious and was honored by a linage of Prophets emerging from her line. The line of a former prostitute. To me, both events show that their professions do not define them. Sure they are mixed up in something bad but they are people as well and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can be generous to anyone He(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants at any time(He(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can also give whatever He(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants to give, whether it's a line of prophets or heaven.) And that it's not up to us to judge people because the person you think is the furthest away from religion could be closer to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) than you and I which is why I say do not become the spokes-people for God. Don't treat God like a mouth-piece who only does what you want him to do, who only says what you want him to say. You're servants, not the jury. Act like servants.

Though if all you have is zina and adultery and other negative things on your mind, then you will see them everywhere. 

7 hours ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

You know these are from sunni books right? To the sunna sect, prophets also make mistakes and are not infallible.

And in shia we know that the lineage from prophet Adam to prophet Mohammad is pure.

Sahih doesn't mean Sahih Bukhari. Sahih means authenthic. I'm a Shi'a, obviously I read from shi'a sources. I think this much is understood and already implied, otherwise it's a case of telling someone the sky is blue. The events we have from the time of Bani Israel come from Imam Ali(عليه السلام) and Imam Jafar(عليه السلام). You're right on your second statement. However, not all prophets are related to one another. The linage from Adam(عليه السلام) to Ibrahim(عليه السلام) to Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the purest. The rest is up to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

As for the case of finding this hadith, if I ever come across it again. I'll post it here. I know what I read and I know I'm right, if I wasn't I wouldn't say it because I think misattributing words to any Masoom(عليه السلام) is a serious crime. I also read a thousand things a day, I can't remember where they are from and when I try to find them again it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Believe it, Don't believe it. Either scenarios do not concern me. 

Wasalam.

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15 hours ago, starlight said:

It doesn't have to be all or none. We can try to do something.

That just defeats your whole argument. If we have to draw the line somewhere by ourselves, by our own "ruling", tailor it to our conveniences.

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19 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

That just defeats your whole argument. If we have to draw the line somewhere by ourselves, by our own "ruling", tailor it to our conveniences.

I don't know how you a arrived at that conclusion. What I am saying is that try and improve the quality of your daily interaction with people in the light of teachings of Quran and Ahlulbayt. Try and be more forgiving, kind , generous , merciful and honest.We can't reach to the level of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) but we can and should keep on trying. 

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

Both stories show that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgave them whilst they were prostitutes because of something they did. One died after the Karam of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). One became pious and was honored by a linage of Prophets emerging from her line. The line of a former prostitute. To me, both events show that their professions do not define them.

You are making a good point at the end in this context. Though, that is also not completely true.

But please don't connect prophethood for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you do so then present some real evidence. Name the names. Who was she? Name the prophets who emerged from her line?

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

And you can't

My post was directed towards:

10 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

To my knowledge there are no Prophets of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who were born out of fornication or adultery from a prostitute.

which is a blanket statement and not nuanced to be accurate in an encapsulated way.

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49 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

You are making a good point at the end in this context. Though, that is also not completely true.

But please don't connect prophethood for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you do so then present some real evidence. Name the names. Who was she? Name the prophets who emerged from her line?

The hadith doesn't say. It doesn't name the prostitute nor it names the prophets. Though I don't see how it's a problem as out of the thousands of Prophets, we only know the names of just a few dozen and their stories like we know the children of Israel killed hundreds of Prophets. We do not know their names. The ones related to the former prostitute could've been one of them. This is a common theme in the hadith of Bani Israel that it doesn't give the names of people, just mentions them by what they were. It just teaches you and shows lessons except in the case of a few hadith which does say names like the one with the pious man named Jareeh.The hadith I read just said this "Allah forgave her and rewarded her by making her the mother of a few Prophets from her line"(Paraphrased) after she became pious due to the Karam of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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