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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are there disproportionately more Shias apostasing than Sunnis?

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

That's true. But there framework is the real problem. 

And there interpretations too have many problems. 

I think they have a good framework as it protects one from shirk .

The worst that can be levelled against them is following sahaba instead of Ahlulbayt and that leading to bidda such as tarawee.

As for 12er and Sufi again a good ideology but at it's worst can lead to ghuluw shirk and very strange bidda.

And shirk is the worst possible sin.

As for the whole terrorist thing, killing inocent people is the same whether it comes from splinter groups or a states. And Shia (zaidi included) gave done there fair share of killing innocents. Just look at the empires.

 

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1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Ali ibn Hussein, what's your position on the Houthis BTW?...I'm just curious

Honestly I don't know enough about them. But I try keep it simple.

America, Britain, Israel bad 

Anyone openly supporting them bad (Saudi)

Houthi against Saudi therefore good ?

I know it's overly simplistic but politics is so complex lol.

 

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I think they have a good framework as it protects one from shirk .

The worst that can be levelled against them is following sahaba instead of Ahlulbayt and that leading to bidda such as tarawee.

As for 12er and Sufi again a good ideology but at it's worst can lead to ghuluw shirk and very strange bidda.

And shirk is the worst possible sin.

As for the whole terrorist thing, killing inocent people is the same whether it comes from splinter groups or a states. And Shia (zaidi included) gave done there fair share of killing innocents. Just look at the empires.

 

Sirat ul Mustaqeem (straight path) is narrow.

There are no safe positions. All these frameworks if checked on there extreme levels can lead to either shirk or Zulm or nifaaq. All are unforgivable. 

And there are places even in salafism that can be equated to shirk. And that also aligns completely with there frameowork. Like literally taking everything from Quran. Instead of going into deeper interpretations or research. Even this can lead you to shirk.

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Guest Psychological Warfare

If you pay attention to what will be said you will conclude what will save you and your families. Prescription has been written and given, we need to take it. Instead of worrying about we pray and ask for help and God does not provide help . Help has been provided. What ever we have is from Karbala. Aza of Son of Fatima Az Zahra(sa) is your key to keeping faith. 

On youtube under Titie: "Ayatullah Abhjat on the Dhuhoor of Imam Mahdi(as)"

https://youtu.be/YaSpZ2NCr2k

 

Quote

 Imam Mahdi will stand between Rukn and Maqam next to the Ka'ba clearly making reference to Karbala in the beginning of his movement:

O people of the world, I am the uprising Imam. O people of the world, I am the avenger. O people of the world, my grandfather Husayn was killed while he was thirsty. O people of the world, my grandfather was left without dress. O people of the world, they damaged the body of my grandfather.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-15-no-3-autumn-2014/connection-between-imam-mahdi-and-imam-husayn-part-1/connection

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On 1/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, Debate follower said:

Sunnis have always been the great majority within Muslims! 

Majority of Sunni brethren believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a Sunni and Imam Ali (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a Sunni...Sunnis believe all the companions were Sunni and all the Hebrew patriarchs (Moses, David, Solomon etc.) were all Sunni...the Muslim Ummah was a Sunni utopia then the advent of Shi'ism came along and ruined everything...this is nonsensical on many levels...this is also why ME religious minorities like Chaldeans, Assyrians, Armenians, Copts, Maronites etc. sometimes belittle Islam and Muslims...Shi'ism and Ibadism are the oldest forms of Islam that we know of (chronologically and historically speaking)…Sunnism was largely a reaction to other theological schools (e.g. Muʿtazila etc.) and evolved slowly over the course of centuries...early Sunnism as a movement, theological school and distinct current - began to take shape  around the 10th century according to scholars. 

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On 1/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, Debate follower said:

Sunnis have always been the great majority within Muslims! 

Nope not really...there were various groups floating about...Shia of Uthman later evolved into Shi'a of Mu'awiyah...Shi'a of Ali formed after the death of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in 632 CE...Zaydiyyah are the earliest Shi'a sect...Khawarij formed as a secessionist movement after the Battle of Siffin (657 CE)… Imamiyyah (i.e. proto-Twelver and proto-Ismaili) became a distinct sect in al-Baqir's and as-Sadiq's time (roughly around 732 CE)...according to Sunni sources, Muʿtazili theology originated in Basra in 748...Ahlul Ḥadith (proto-Sunni) emerged during the 3rd Islamic century of the Islamic era (i.e. appeared in 9th century and crystalized in 10th century CE)

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Guest ChilledOutGuy

The not-so-Shia state
Disenchanted Iranians are turning to other faiths

Repression is spurring alienation from the official creed

 

Jan 23rd 2021

 

FOR FATHER MANSOUR, Christianity in Iran has all the excitement of the persecuted early church. In homes across the country he delivers his sermons in code, calling Jesus “Jamsheed”. He leads songs of praise in silence. “We lip-synch because we can’t worship out loud,” he says. The risks are great: proselytisation is banned; dozens of missionaries have been jailed. But so too are the spiritual rewards. Local pastors report hundreds of secret churches attracting hundreds of thousands of worshippers. Evangelicals claim Christianity is growing faster in Iran than in any other country.

The spiritual gap between Iran’s Shia ayatollahs and the people they rule is widening. The strictures of the theocracy and the doctrine of Shia supremacy alienate many. So growing numbers of Iranians seem to be leaving religion or experimenting with alternatives to Shiism. Christians, Zoroastrians and Bahais all report soaring interest. Leaders of other forms of Islam speak of popular revivals. “There’s a loyalty change,” says Yaser Mirdamadi, a Shia cleric in exile. “Iranians are turning to other religions because they no longer find satisfaction in the official faith.”

Formally, the ayatollahs recognise other monotheistic religions, as long as they predate Islam. The constitution allocates non-Muslim “peoples of the book”—Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians—five of the 290 seats in parliament. They have their own schools (with Muslim headmasters) and places of worship. Iran hosts the Muslim world’s largest Jewish community.

But the clerics prefer to keep non-Shias separate, cloistered and subservient. Religious diversity, they fear, could adulterate the Shia identity of the state. Since the Islamic revolution in 1979, there has never been a non-Shia minister. The clerics sometimes denounce religious minorities as infidels and spies. Conversion to non-Muslim religions is punishable by death.

The repression isn’t working. The state says over 99.5% of Iran’s 82m people are Muslim. But its numbers are not reliable. A poll of more than 50,000 Iranians (about 90% of whom live in Iran) conducted online by Gamaan, a Dutch research group, found a country in religious flux. About half of the respondents said they had lost or changed their religion. Less than a third identified as Shia. If these numbers are even close to correct, Iran is much more diverse than its official census shows.

Zoroastrianism, Iran’s oldest faith, is perhaps the country’s second-biggest religion. Nowruz and Yalda, two of its holy days, are celebrated as national holidays. Officially, it has only 23,000 adherents (some of whom are pictured). They follow the teachings of Zarathustra, a Persian prophet from the 6th century BC. But 8% of respondents told Gamaan they were Zoroastrian. Some are attracted to the faith’s indigenous roots, Persian creed and hostility to Islam, which they deride as an Arab implant. Such was the popularity of Zoroastrian-style weddings, conducted with Persian prayers around a fire, that the authorities banned them in 2019.

The clerics see Sufism, or mystical Islam, as a bigger threat. Long targeted by the government with harassment and arbitrary arrests, Sufis protested in 2018. Five members of the security forces were killed; over 300 Sufis were arrested. Noor Ali Tabandeh, leader of the Gonabadis, the most popular Sufi order, was then placed under house arrest until his death in December 2019. But Gonabadi mystics say their retreats attract a growing number of Iranians.

Iran’s Sunni population is also growing, in part due to high birth rates. They are thought to be 10% of the population and live mostly on the country’s periphery. The authorities want to keep it that way. They have demolished all Sunni mosques in the capital, Tehran. Still, every Friday thousands of Sunnis spill out of large villas in Tehran which Sunnis use as prayer halls.

Millions more have joined Islam’s other offshoots, such as the Yarsanis, who follow the teachings of a 14th-century holy man, and the Bahais, who follow those of a 19th-century prophet. Their universalism and rites incorporating music, dancing and the mixing of the sexes draw many seeking a respite from the theocracy founded by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who reportedly said, “There is no fun in Islam.”

Many Christian converts like the fact that women may take part in services alongside men. Some draw parallels between the martyrdom of Shia imams and Christ. But some new members of Iran’s minority religions may also be attracted by certain non-spiritual benefits. For example, they can apply for refugee status in America as persecuted minorities, usually leading to quicker approval.

President Hassan Rouhani unveiled a citizen’s charter in 2016 that promised to end religious discrimination. But it wasn’t binding. The ruling clerics still seem to think that theocracy is best protected by persecution. As a result, they may be turning Iran into a less Shia state. ■

 

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2021/01/23/disenchanted-iranians-are-turning-to-other-faiths

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39 minutes ago, Guest ChilledOutGuy said:

But some new members of Iran’s minority religions may also be attracted by certain non-spiritual benefits. For example, they can apply for refugee status in America as persecuted minorities, usually leading to quicker approval.

It took them a while to come to the real reason why some may be changing beliefs and even sexualities. At least the UK immigration authorities are getting wise to the latter and asking for 'proof'.

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  • Haji 2003 changed the title to Are there disproportionately more Shias apostasing than Sunnis?
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On 2/1/2021 at 9:37 AM, inneedofprayers said:

Not sure if there are any reliable statistics to back this up, since most people who apostate do not hold "Renunciation from religion" parties and make it public on their FB, instagram etc. !

I agree there will not be reliable statistics, as there no official register to keep track of this. But certainly, there is very slight but significant trend towards apostasy among Muslims noticeably in the western countries and to lesser extent in the Muslims countries. Muslims should not close their eyes like proverbial pigeons to this phenomenon. Apostasy among Muslims is there and growing.  Even some scholars talk of tsunami of apostasy among second third generation of Muslims.

List of ex-Muslim organisations (Of course these are well funded by big powers behind the scenes for their vested interests 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex-Muslim_organisations

Shaytaan the cursed, made Promise to Allah Almighty that he will use every guile, trickery, and cunningness to mislead Mankind.  And he, the shaytaan the cursed, true to his promise is busy at it.  Quoting a famous scholar:

“What this means is: “Then I shall come to them from all directions, from the direction of truth and the direction of falsehood; I shall bar them from the truth, and I shall make falsehood fair-seeming to them.”

The Blessed Quran testifies to this:

Then Satan said, "Because you have made me go astray, I shall certainly try to seduce people into straying from the right path.I shall attack them from all directions, and You will not find many of them giving You thanks" 16 - 17 al-A’raf

[For Iblees] said, "My Lord, because You have made me err, I will surely make [disobedience] attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all, except Your chosen servants among them." 39 – 40 Al-Hijr

 

Quote

people who apostate do not hold “Renunciation from religion” parties and make it public on their FB,  nstagram etc. !

Want to have a good surprise? Just check about Ex-Muslims in Youtube and see how they (Ex-Muslims) are gloating about their freedom from Islam!!!

Alhamdulilah, there are sincere Muslims who are working hard on these ex-Muslims and bringing them back to Islam – Check Youtube for Ex-Muslim reverts.

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18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

2.) Secondly, if this news is 100% genuine it wouldn't surprise me in the least...expect the Muslim world (both Sunni & Shi'i) to apostatize by 90%...I assume you're familiar with the Qurʼānic prophecy in Surah Nasr, Ayah(s) 1 - 3, "And when you see people entering Allah's religion in multitudes" etc...this refers to the masses seeing Islam as a beacon of light and learning and joining the fold en-masse...the unveiling and dawning of a new civilization (e.g. Islamic Golden Age, Baghdad during Abbasid Caliphate etc.)...there are Sunni ahadith about the End Times that explain an era that is the opposite of this ayah...yes, there existed a time when people flocked to Islam...but conversely, there's also a juxtaposed era (i.e. reign of the Antichrist/Dajjal) when folks will be leaving Islam by the droves...the beginning of this era is upon us now (my opinion)...with all due respect, the Sunni state of mind isn't psychologically prepared for this new phase of history...they've invested too much time and energy in being the "majority"...the Shi'a are better mentally and emotionally prepared because being a persecuted minority has become nonchalantly second nature.

I agree with you 100% and I believe that we have entered this era.

Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A time of patience will come to people in which adhering to one’s religion is like grasping a hot coal.” Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2260

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18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

.the beginning of this era is upon us now (my opinion)...with all due respect, the Sunni state of mind isn't psychologically prepared for this new phase of history...they've invested too much time and energy in being the "majority"...the Shi'a are better mentally and emotionally prepared because being a persecuted minority has become nonchalantly second nature.

I beg to differ. Sunni Muslims have shown historically that they have ability to ‘bounce back’ to supremacy. 

They withstood the assault by Christian Europe in 9 majors Crusades from 1096 – 1303 C. E and defeated them thoroughly.

They withstood the assault by Mongols from 1260 – 1400 and defeated them thoroughly.

As it has been foretold in hadith that Muslims rulers will the scum.

On the authority of Thawbaan (may Allah be pleased with him), the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food”. Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” [An authentic hadith recorded by Abu Dawud and Ahmad]

Especially from the Arab leaders each one is rotten than the other. And there are numerous hadith of promises of better times ahead. In sha Allah.

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There's some truth to the whole Iranian thing. There's a Pew Research Poll that says that a good chunk of apostates are immigrants from Iran, about 22%. 

In any case, it doesn't matter. A lot of these people have a pretty poor understanding of religion and spirituality in the first place, and are often very materialistic. The more these kinds of folks leave our mosques the better. 

 

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10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Sirat ul Mustaqeem (straight path) is narrow.

There are no safe positions. All these frameworks if checked on there extreme levels can lead to either shirk or Zulm or nifaaq. All are unforgivable. 

And there are places even in salafism that can be equated to shirk. And that also aligns completely with there frameowork. Like literally taking everything from Quran. Instead of going into deeper interpretations or research. Even this can lead you to shirk.

Brother, I agree with you that ‘Sirat ul Mustaqeem (straight path) is narrow.’
The Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) has explained the Blessed Quran very well and left nothing unexplained. The Blessed Quran has clearly stated that the core of Book has been clearly stated. And we are warned seeking deeper meanings of other ayah other than what the ayahs state.
Only those with deviation in their hearts will try to go for deeper interpretations.
 Those firmly rooted in knowledge do not try to seek deeper for looking for meanings other than what is obvious.

It is He who sent down the Book to you from Him: ayahs containing clear judgements — they are the core of the Book — and others which are open to interpretation. Those with deviation in their hearts follow what is open to interpretation in it, its inner desiring conflict, seeking meaning. No one knows its inner meaning but Allah. Those firmly rooted in knowledge say, ´We have Iman in it. All of it is from our Lord. ´ But only people of intelligence pay heed. Ayah 7 Surah Al Imran 

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12 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I think they have a good framework as it protects one from shirk .

The worst that can be levelled against them is following sahaba instead of Ahlulbayt and that leading to bidda such as tarawee.

As for 12er and Sufi again a good ideology but at it's worst can lead to ghuluw shirk and very strange bidda.

And shirk is the worst possible sin.

As for the whole terrorist thing, killing inocent people is the same whether it comes from splinter groups or a states. And Shia (zaidi included) gave done there fair share of killing innocents. Just look at the empires.

 

Brother, Sunnis do follow AhlulBayt (may Allah be pleased with them all).  In fact, Sunnis have more members of AhlulBayt (may Allah be pleased with them all) then select few.

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6 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Majority of Sunni brethren believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a Sunni and Imam Ali (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a Sunni...Sunnis believe all the companions were Sunni and all the Hebrew patriarchs (Moses, David, Solomon etc.) were all Sunni...

Brother, all Sunnis without any exception believe all above were Muslims. I am sure Shia brothers are on the same belief.

5 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Nope not really...there were various groups floating about...Shia of Uthman later evolved into Shi'a of Mu'awiyah...Shi'a of Ali formed after the death of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in 632 CE

Brother, if you want to have it this way then why not give the Sunnis start from Shiatul Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him)

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4 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Only those with deviation in their hearts will try to go for deeper interpretations.
 Those firmly rooted in knowledge do not try to seek deeper for looking for meanings other than what is obvious.

Salaam,

Don't take it out of context brother. What would you say about a scientist or a philosopher, doing research on some aspect of life and matching it with a deeper meaning from the Quranic verses? For example, creation of the Universe. Origin of Mankind etc.

And definitely in many aspects of faith, I am not saying we should do qiyas or something. No. That is absolutely incorrect. But the interpretations should make sense with the divine principles of Islam like Tauheed, Adl, Nabuwwat, Imamat, Qiyamat.

And agree or disagree, we all are in a battle with each other, not on quran but regarding the interpretation of Quran.

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

all Sunnis without any exception believe all above were Muslims.

And by Muslims you mean Sunnis...Muslims = Sunnis in your head...you believe Shi'a are renegades, deviants, polytheists, unbelievers, Zoroastrians, Jews etc...correct?

 

2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

why not give the Sunnis start from Shiatul Abu Bakr

Because no scholar says this...I only repeat what I hear or read from the scholars...Sunni scholars, Shi'a Scholars and Orientalist scholars...traces of what would later develop into Ahlul-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah starts with Shi'a-tul Uthman they say...that's when clear hallmarks and recognizable characteristics and divisions were beginning to formulate 

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6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.”

You're misinterpreting this hadith...the Prophet (S) isn't scolding and chastising and condemning the Shi'a in this hadith...the hadith reads "you will be numerous"...Shi'a aren't numerous so that makes your point mute...you have pointed this fact out yourself about 500 times during the course of this thread...Sunnis are numerous and hence guided and Shi'a are a minority and hence deviants sent to mislead the righteous

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18 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I think they have a good framework 

When you look at the framework of an organization you must look at its foundations first and foremost...if the founder of a particular movement is corrupt, immoral etc. then the movement is doomed from its inception.

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18 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

it protects one from shirk .

Protects one against shirk?? They're ultra-literalists who attribute everything to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in an anthropomorphic (tashbīh) manner and give Allah a jism (e..g. Allah's Hand, Allah sitting on the Arsh, Allah's laughter, Allah's shin, Allah's foot etc.)...their "get out of jail free" card is them ending off every phrase with the magical mantra "in a way that befits His Majesty"  

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12 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

You're misinterpreting this hadith...the Prophet (S) isn't scolding and chastising and condemning the Shi'a in this hadith...the hadith reads "you will be numerous"...Shi'a aren't numerous so that makes your point mute...you have pointed this fact out yourself about 500 times during the course of this thread...Sunnis are numerous and hence guided and Shi'a are a minority and hence deviants sent to mislead the righteous

 

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21 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I think people who have true faith in their religion are very few in the world, regardless of what religion they claim to believe in. As a muslim it makes me sad to see people leave Islam whether they are sunnis or shias and even if their faith in God was a product of their culture and environment, it was still better than the worshiping of secularism and the atheism that usually follows when you take them out of that environment and they subsequently leave their culture for the new one.

Lack of faith in ones religion usually results in the corruption of ones actions stemming from a lack of taqwa and the ME has plenty of that, whether its the sunni countries or the shia countries. All it takes for these people to officially leave their religion is a quick change of scenery. 

Absolutely right. I was trying to get at this, but was too tired in my response. 

There are very few people in the world that are actually strong believers in their religion (be that Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc.). People generally believe in God, but there isn't much of an interest to move beyond what is the established, acceptable methods of religious devotion. I don't say this to show off, it's not as if I'm a great Muslim. It's just my experience. Even within my own family, no one is interested in talking deeply about the Quran or anything spiritual. Those like my father that are religious, only understand that religious belief in the context of empty moralism and cultural identity. This more or less has to do with the modern world that we live in today, where materialist philosophy and scientism is the dominant mode of thinking. Just try talking about spirituality and religion among your schoolmates and see the people cringe. 

We live in the Kali Yuga stage as the Hindus call it. The Dark Age where the metaphysical is foreign to nearly everyone but a few. Supposedly this is to last for 6000 years until some figure or event arrives to revive the symbiosis that we lost. As Muslims, this would be the Mahdi (a). 

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if my own children leave the religion or have a very light relationship with it. It's just what it is. 

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10 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if my own children leave the religion or have a very light relationship with it. It's just what it is. 

You have to do the utmost to save them from that, by whatever means necessary, if you need to move into the forest and isolate yourself from the world, do it! 

Your children is one of the greatest ways for you to receive barakah even after you death, what a shame it would be if they became kafirs, a shame for them and a shame for their parents.

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52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

You have to do the utmost to save them from that, by whatever means necessary, if you need to move into the forest and isolate yourself from the world, do it! 

Your children is one of the greatest ways for you to receive barakah even after you death, what a shame it would be if they became kafirs, a shame for them and a shame for their parents.

I'm not saying that I won't do what I can, and get them surrounded by the right environment. It's just the world is what the world is. And your children are their own people. There's only so much influence you can have on them. I mean, Noah's (a) own son should be a good example of this. If a Prophet can get to this position of having a kafir child, in an age of miracles, what can be said of me in the modern age? 

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On 2/2/2021 at 4:03 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

The worst that can be levelled against them is following sahaba instead of Ahlulbayt

The worst that can be leveled against them is that they collaborated with Ibn Saud and helped the British destabilize the Ottoman Sultanate...they believe Islam came to an abrupt end prior to the revival efforts of Ibn 'Abd al Wahhab...they believe Ibn 'Abd al Wahhab singlehandedly brought Islam back from the brink of extinction and annihilation...they (i.e. Wahhabis, Salafis, Takfiris) also believe anyone who adheres to another theological school besides their own is an apostate worthy of death...the only difference is in the degree of practice or willingness to act upon said beliefs...a Takfiri is typically more zealous and will act on his belief...whereas a Salafi is more theoretical and will adhere to the ideology but likely won't act.  

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21 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I'm not saying that I won't do what I can, and get them surrounded by the right environment. It's just the world is what the world is. And your children are their own people. There's only so much influence you can have on them. I mean, Noah's (a) own son should be a good example of this. If a Prophet can get to this position of having a kafir child, in an age of miracles, what can be said of me in the modern age? 

Faith is a blessing from God in the end, all we can do is our utmost for our children and that starts even before the child is born as a man, by earning halal and feeding your wife halal and by following the religion in all of our day to day tasks.

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