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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are there disproportionately more Shias apostasing than Sunnis?

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  • Advanced Member
On 1/26/2021 at 12:15 PM, zahralzu said:

I've seen this claim a lot, I don't know how true it is, but if it is the case that more shias apostate than sunnis, what is the reason?

It is human nature to opt out any ‘system’ one is not comfortable with.  There is no exception for Muslims.  Those who were on the fringe, like very liberal & secular parents or no Islamic upbring from the beginning. Such ‘Muslims’ grow up having very negative image of their inherited religion.  Thus, they have sort of inferiority complex of their inherited religion. Once they come of age and join Universities they easily get swayed by other ‘isms’
Of course, Sunni Islam is not immune from apostasy as is Shia Islam. But proportionally apostasy is very much higher in Shia Islam.  I have met more than 10 highly educated Iranians professionals who had left (Shia) Islam. Their main objection was the way the Mullahs were running Iran.  And expressed resentment at Arabs bringing Islam to the ‘Persians’ (their preference to be called so).

Following link of site run by ex-Muslims.  I have quoted one informative post.

Are there more shia apostates more than sunni?

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6494.0

Quote

Since I left Islam, I did notice that there were more shia apostates than sunni ones. The shia apostates were mostly from Iran. I have my own take on this which is that shia's traditionally are more exposed to speculative theology and concentrate less on "fiqh". The sunni's have also had a speculative theological tradition which is through their aqeedah. The difference though is that sunni's like to derive alot more from the Quran and Sunnah. From my understanding shia seem to be exposed to more rational thought in their theology, which gives them room to maneuver. The other reason particularly with the Iranians is because of the theocratic oppression they have seen over the past thirty years. Historically they have also not liked the Arab culture that wAll these blame games will go on and on and on. They have no end.

Below extract from Guardian

At Liverpool’s Anglican Cathedral in the UK, a weekly Persian service attracts between 100 and 140 people. Nearly all are migrants from Iran, Afghanistan and elsewhere in central Asia.

One in four confirmations conducted by the bishop of Bradford, Toby Howarth, over the past year were of converts from Islam. Most were Iranian and most of those were asylum seekers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/05/european-churches-growing-flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity

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9 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Since the major accepted source is social media, then I have to say most apostates I see seem to be sunni (Saudi, Pakistani, Berber). 

Great isn't it ? 

Yes, its Great. I would say very Great! Even in this difficult times, bad press and horrible & inexcusable actions of ISIS, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.  And this mostly applies to Sunni Islam.  Of course, nobody can deny apostasy among Sunni Muslims. Comparatively it is very tiny.  This is completely offset by new conversions.  And the net gain is very satisfying.
Figures speak much louder.  This completely debunks your post. It seems more like your wish!

Muslim population growth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

Conversion

Quote

 

According to The New York Times, an estimated 25% of American Muslims are converts.[32] In Britain, around 6,000 people convert to Islam per year and according to a June 2000 article in the British Muslims Monthly Survey the bulk of new Muslim converts in Britain were women.[33] According to The Huffington Post, "observers estimate that as many as 20,000 Americans convert to Islam annually."[34]

According to Pew Research, the number of U.S. converts to Islam is roughly equal to the number of U.S. Muslims who leave the religion.[35] 77% of new converts to Islam are from Christianity, whereas 19% were from non-religion. Whereas, 55% of Muslims who left Islam went to non-religion, and 22% converted to Christianity.[35] Data from the General Social Survey in the United States show that 32 percent of those raised Muslim no longer embrace Islam in adulthood, and 18 percent hold no religious identification.[36]

A 2015 study found that, since 1960, up to 10.2 million Muslims worldwide have converted to Christianity.[37] The increasingly large ex-Muslim communities in the Western world that adhere to no religion have also been well documented.[38]

Despite this, Islam remains, on the global level, the religion (not including irreligion) with the largest amount of net converts into the religion, with about 420,000 more people converting to Islam than leaving Islam between 2015 and 2020.[39]

 

Further reading if you are interested:

https://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-sunni-and-shia/

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Yes, its Great. I would say very Great! Even in this difficult times, bad press and horrible & inexcusable actions of ISIS, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.  And this mostly applies to Sunni Islam.  Of course, nobody can deny apostasy among Sunni Muslims. Comparatively it is very tiny.  This is completely offset by new conversions.  And the net gain is very satisfying.
Figures speak much louder.  This completely debunks your post. It seems more like your wish!

Muslim population growth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

Conversion

Further reading if you are interested:

https://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-sunni-and-shia/

My post was actually ironic. But you did not miss the opportunity to display your weak analytical skills.. 

Understand brother, you cannot counter an argument about apostasy with figures about conversion rises. Like if 100 people convert to Islam but 50 apostasize, and the topic is about apostasy, you cannot just come around and conclude that the balance is of +50 and that is great. Got it ? 

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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Figures speak much louder.  This completely debunks your post. It seems more like your wish!

Luckily the truth was never determined by numbers. As we know muslims have always been outnumbered by non muslims, but alhamdulillah this is irrelevant to us. 

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2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

How’s that great ? And I doubt these people even knew their religion properly irrespective of being Sunni or Shia their just blinded by west’s propaganda’s 

:salam:

As I said

1 hour ago, realizm said:

My post was actually ironic

I just find it amazing how people want to make a topic like apostasy go sectarian.

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On 1/26/2021 at 7:15 AM, zahralzu said:

I've seen this claim a lot, I don't know how true it is, but if it is the case that more shias apostate than sunnis, what is the reason?

Shia of someone .

Not the Shia who believe in 

"Live like Imam Ali(عليه السلام)

Die like Imam Husayn(as)"

19 Ramdhan and 10 Muharram are antidotes for Atheism, Agnostism etc..

Why do you think they say, What Ever we have is from Karbala. Which is why people with insight will do everything to preserve it. 

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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Luckily the truth was never determined by numbers. As we know muslims have always been outnumbered by non muslims, but alhamdulillah this is irrelevant to us. 

Brother, I completely agree with you that ‘Muslims have always been outnumbered by non-Muslims. And the Blessed Quran testifies to this.

And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly. 103 Surah Yusuf

And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant:111 Surah An’aam

Or do they say: There is madness in him? Nay! he has brought them the truth, and most of them are averse from the truth 70 Surah al-Muminun

Please note that the Blessed Quran that non-Muslims will be in Majority!  Here the issue within Muslims – Shia/Sunni.  If we refer to Sermon 126, Nahjul Balagha, we can see that Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) sincerely advising Muslims to “be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity.”
Sunnis have always been the great majority within Muslims! 
So, Alhamdulilah, being in the great majority is very relevant to us.

Let me add that just being from the great majority on Muslims, does not give one a free pass to get into Jannah. It must be earned by following the Blessed Quran and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) and performing recommended good deeds and giving due rights to all the Creation.

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9 hours ago, realizm said:

I just find it amazing how people want to make a topic like apostasy go sectarian.

Look! Who's talking! :grin:

 

On 1/29/2021 at 4:06 PM, realizm said:

:salam:

Since the major accepted source is social media, then I have to say most apostates I see seem to be sunni (Saudi, Pakistani, Berber). 

Great isn't it ? 

 

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13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) sincerely advising Muslims to “be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity.”
Sunnis have always been the great majority within Muslims! 
So, Alhamdulilah, being in the great majority is very relevant to us.

Salam we must be with majority that support truth which maybe their number is lesser than majority of people so it doesn't has any relation to be with greater crowd that  gathered on falshood.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam we must be with majority that support truth which maybe their number is lesser than majority of people so it doesn't has any relation to be with greater crowd that  gathered on falshood.

Wa’alaykum Salaam brother, I completely agree with you in this.  Generally, Shias take Sunnis to be nasibis, so, dismiss their (very) large numbers ‘as crowd gathered on falsehood.

But then within Shia Islam, Zaydis can turn around the same argument, that you are forwarding, against you (Twelver Shias).  According to Zaydi Shia, Twelver Shia are greater crowd gathered on falsehood.

 [or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets] - Ayah 32 Surah ar-Rum

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Indeed it is the case because Shia Islam simply isn't the true version of Islam Shias are not kaffir but their version of Islam simply does not make sense so it is not hard to believe that people would leave something that does not make sense. Completely apostatizing from it and becoming an atheist or converting to another religion entirely however, is wrong. Shia Muslims should apostatize only from the "shia" part. But, if there was only a choice of being Shia Muslim or not Muslim at all, then Shia Muslim is still infinitely better, as they are still Muslim, but misguided. 

Daniel Haqiqatjou is the perfect example of an born and bred Iranian Shia coming to the realization the flaws of Shia Islam and coming to the true Islam.

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:15 PM, zahralzu said:

I've seen this claim a lot, I don't know how true it is, but if it is the case that more shias apostate than sunnis, what is the reason?

Not sure if there are any reliable statistics to back this up, since most people who apostate do not hold "Renunciation from religion" parties and make it public on their FB, instagram etc. !

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On 1/31/2021 at 4:41 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

I can't say who have more apostates but salafi are better at converting so in the balance they are in a better position.

Salafism is an ugly ideology but it's backed by petrol dollars galore...Saudis can buy the whole world lock, stock and barrel...Third World people need to eat bruh.

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On 1/31/2021 at 6:54 AM, Debate follower said:

Shias take Sunnis to be nasibis

That's a complete falsehood...you're being duped by US, Israeli and Saudi propaganda

 

On 1/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, Debate follower said:

And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly. 103 Surah Yusuf

And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant:111 Surah An’aam

Or do they say: There is madness in him? Nay! he has brought them the truth, and most of them are averse from the truth 70 Surah al-Muminun

All these verses back the Shi'a narrative and not the Sunni line of thinking...not exactly sure why you're quoting these verses...you're not helping your cause there Ace

On 1/31/2021 at 6:54 AM, Debate follower said:

But then within Shia Islam, Zaydis can turn around the same argument

True

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@Debate followerA few thoughts on apostasy and Islamic End Days cosmology real quick: 1.) Firstly, we don't even know (percent wise) what Shi'i population numbers are worldwide...personally I believe it's somewhere between 17 - 22%...over the years I've read articles saying we number as low as 2% and as high as 33%...with the most popular statistics being 10 and 15%...this is largely because the governments of South Asia, Central Asia, Western Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe etc. didn't make a distinction between Sunni and Shi'i adherents when gathering numerical data during the 19th and 20th centuries (not sure whether or not this has changed since 2003 Iraq War)...if we don't know our numbers how can governments or polling agencies possibly now know many Shi'a are leaving Islam?? This is common sense...call me a conspiracy kook but it sounds like it might be some sort of PSYOPS strategy...2.) Secondly, if this news is 100% genuine it wouldn't surprise me in the least...expect the Muslim world (both Sunni & Shi'i) to apostatize by 90%...I assume you're familiar with the Qurʼānic prophecy in Surah Nasr, Ayah(s) 1 - 3, "And when you see people entering Allah's religion in multitudes" etc...this refers to the masses seeing Islam as a beacon of light and learning and joining the fold en-masse...the unveiling and dawning of a new civilization (e.g. Islamic Golden Age, Baghdad during Abbasid Caliphate etc.)...there are Sunni ahadith about the End Times that explain an era that is the opposite of this ayah...yes, there existed a time when people flocked to Islam...but conversely, there's also a juxtaposed era (i.e. reign of the Antichrist/Dajjal) when folks will be leaving Islam by the droves...the beginning of this era is upon us now (my opinion)...with all due respect, the Sunni state of mind isn't psychologically prepared for this new phase of history...they've invested too much time and energy in being the "majority"...the Shi'a are better mentally and emotionally prepared because being a persecuted minority has become nonchalantly second nature.

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https://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/analysis-indicates-shia-populations-are-being-underreported-50702/

 


A recent article in the New York Times entitled “WikiLeaks Shows a Saudi Obsession With Iran” bolsters this theory: “A trove of thousands of Saudi documents recently released by WikiLeaks reveals in surprising detail how the government’s goal in recent years was not just to spread its strict version of Sunni Islam — though that was a priority — but also to undermine its primary adversary: Shiite Iran.

“The documents from Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Ministry illustrate a near obsession with Iran, with diplomats in Africa, Asia and Europe monitoring Iranian activities in minute detail and top government agencies plotting moves to limit the spread of Shiite Islam.”

Later on, the article clearly demonstrates the depth of Saudi’s paranoia: “The fear of Shiite influence extended to countries where Muslims are small minorities, like China, where a Saudi delegation was charged with ‘suggesting practical programs that can be carried out to confront Shiite expansion in China.’”

Pew’s famous 2009 study estimated that only 10 to 13 percent of Muslims are Shias, with an approximate worldwide population of between 154 million and 200 million adherents. According to Pew, “For most countries with sizeable Muslim populations, one or more experts provided the Pew Forum with their best estimate of the Sunni-Shia breakdown based on their own review of the published sources and other expert analyses available to them.”

However, many reputable think tanks and academics disagree with Pew’s conclusions. For example, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) estimates that 15 percent of Muslims are Shia and uses Pew’s own data sources to do so. At 15 percent, alongside CFR’s count of 1.6 billion Muslims in the world today, this would indicate that the Shiite world population stands at least at 240 million, nearly 90 million more individuals that Pew’s low estimate.

In 2006, Dr. Vali Nasr, dean of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Washington, D.C., and a senior fellow in foreign policy at the Brookings Institution, published an article in Foreign Affairs magazine showcasing demographics for the worldwide Shia population that strongly differed from Pew’s research.

For example, whereas Pew counted a mere 17 million Shiites in Pakistan, Nasr proves at least 33.2 million were residing there. The newest estimate of that country’s Shia population − based upon the State Department’s assessment that 20 percent of Pakistan is Shia, as well as the newest census by the Pakistan Ministry of Planning, Development and Reforms indicating a total Pakistani population of 191.71 million citizens − means that there are now at least 38.2 million Shias in the country.

It is well-established that Azerbaijan is a majority Shia Muslim country. In 2009, Pew listed that country as having between 5 million and 7 million Shias. However, statistics from the CIA World Factbook show at least 8.16 million Shiites are living there today.The CIA World Factbook updates the demographics for several countries, including Afghanistan, which has at least 6.1 million Shias (up from Pew’s 3-4 million) and estimating that Iraq has 24.1 million (up from Pew’s 19 million).

Iran is the world’s largest Shia country. A variety of studies show that 90 to 95 percent of the Iranian population follow Shiaism. According to statistics from the United Nations, the country currently has a total population of more than 75 million. Accordingly, there must be more than 71 million Shias in the country. In 2009, Pew said there could be as few as 66 million.

Numbers for India also show a strong disparity.

The Pew study stated that there were only 16-24 million Shias in that country. However, the Indian NGO “Alimaan Trust” shows that there are currently more than 30 million Shiites in the Indian subcontinent. This number is bolstered by a 1997 Britannica Book of the Year entry indicating that India has 26 million Shia Muslims.

Considering India’s staggering birth rate and the progression of that rate during nearly two decades, the Alimaan Trust’s analysis is likely to be closer to the truth.

The Turkish Rapport Minority Rights Group wrote in its publication “Bir eşitlik arayışı: Türkiye’de azınlıklar Uluslararası Azınlık Hakları Grubu” that there must be at least 22 million Shias in that country. But Pew counted a mere 7-11 million, which is at the high end is half of Turkey’s own numbers.

Considering differing statistics, propaganda efforts by governments that can be described as “anti-Shia,” and the rapid growth of the human population in general, it is clear that most previous reports of the worldwide population of Shia Muslims can only be fairly called “underestimates.”

 

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1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

when folks will be leaving Islam by the droves

@Debate followerAnd it's not just Islam and Muslims BTW...people of all faiths (Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jews, Christians, Muslims etc.) will be leaving their respected religions by the droves and a new 'religion' (probably based on technology) will emerge...Sunni End Time ahadith mention that religiosity itself will severely be on the decline...sorry, I don't have these references on hand at the present moment...if you're pretty well-read on Islamic eschatology then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.  

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On 1/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, Debate follower said:

being from the great majority on Muslims, does not give one a free pass to get into Jannah

Do you genuinely mean this from your heart or is this feigned humility? The reason why I ask is because nowadays it seems being a member of Ahlul Sunnah (especially Wahhabi interpretation) is like being an affluent card-carrying member of a ritzy country club...or like being a spiritual elitist like a Southern Evangelical or something...pay your subscription dues, recite a quick magical formula and pesto you're a shoo-in  

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On 1/29/2021 at 8:45 PM, Debate follower said:

It is human nature to opt out any ‘system’ one is not comfortable with.  There is no exception for Muslims.  Those who were on the fringe, like very liberal & secular parents or no Islamic upbring from the beginning. Such ‘Muslims’ grow up having very negative image of their inherited religion.  Thus, they have sort of inferiority complex of their inherited religion. Once they come of age and join Universities they easily get swayed by other ‘isms’

Agreed...spot on 100% 

 

On 1/29/2021 at 8:45 PM, Debate follower said:

But proportionally apostasy is very much higher in Shia Islam

No evidence for this statement whatsoever

 

On 1/29/2021 at 8:45 PM, Debate follower said:

I have met more than 10 highly educated Iranians professionals who had left (Shia) Islam. Their main objection was the way the Mullahs were running Iran.  

This is like me going to Miami University and saying, "OMG!, OMG! all the Cubans in the world are against Castro and they're all pro-capitalism 100%"...the truth is...like post-1978 Iran, Castro expelled US-backed dictator Batista and all his crooked landlords and supporters...Batista and his cronies were profiting from Cuba's commercial interests by financially acquiescing to the dictates of the  American mob (mafia ran the drug, gambling, and houses of ill repute in Havana) and with U.S. multinational conglomerates...plus, when Jimmy Carter demanded Castro release Cuban citizens he sent hundreds of boats to Miami...Castro took advantage of the situation by unloading 120,000 people comprised mostly of criminals (hence the film 'Scarface' starring Al Pacino in 1983), the mentally handicapped and homosexual activists...LOL...the incident is known as the 'Mariel boatlift'

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On 1/29/2021 at 8:45 PM, Debate follower said:

And expressed resentment at Arabs bringing Islam to the ‘Persians’ (their preference to be called so).

These are the bigoted secularist, ultra-nationalist and pro-White Revolution types

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6 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Salafism is an ugly ideology but it's backed by petrol dollars galore...Saudis can buy the whole world lock, stock and barrel...Third World people need to eat bruh.

I disagree. I know many salafi the methodology is very objective within their framework and the brothers I know are sincere and great examples of Islam. Born out of an ideology that puts Qur'an and sunnah above all else. And a mindset to strive and protect it and follow it in the smallest of details when it comes to practices.

There have been corrupt zaidi 12er and Ismali regimes as well that doesn't mean those ideologues are bad.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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11 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

know many salafi the methodology

 

11 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

zaidi 12er and Ismali r

Comparing these guys with Salafis is offensive.... salafi’s are simply nutcases that were prophecies’d by the prophet In Sunni and Shia narrations about them causing chaos both Sunni and Shia recognise that that salafi’s meet the description of the prophet’s prophecy about that certain group. I remember reading an article on that a while ago.

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It is about how the world have been leaded to kufr and it is reaching to every Muslim household, changing people and leaving their religion. There are many faithless Muslim people everywhere you go. Many of them do not even show anything about their apostasy. Sunni or Shia apostasy are not relevant, because both of them are leading to rejection.

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