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In the Name of God بسم الله

Child/infant marriages

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Salam everyone,

yesterday i fell into the rabbit hole of child marriages and to be completely honest i am deeply disturbed, this topic is going to be my most serious topic so far because i actually need answers. so i read the whole thread about child marriages on shiachat from 2012 i guess and i found out for the first time that it is allowed even for girls who are younger then 9. 476661014_unnamed(1).thumb.jpg.5ecd9b15836dba36a0a1465bdfc2847f.jpgunnamed.thumb.jpg.3fb67a24fcaf47bcf622ac56e5ec6c2a.jpg

if can see even if he proceeds with sexual intercourse its just brushed off as a sin.

so ive inserted the screenshots and im disturbed. they're saying that she can get a divorce once she reaches 9, now her life would already be ruined by then from all the abuse, how would she know what divorce is, divorce process is so lengthy for women anyways, would her parents even take her back. it not just one things, there's so much wrong with this. in Islam they say that the parents need to ask the boy and girl about marriage too, how on earth is a 4 year old gonna understand any of this and why isn't asking from them a criteria here. if a man is allowed to do things with a baby or child then doesn't that mean that Islam sees females as sex objects, Im sorry for being this straightforward. idk if this is completely true or it might be cuz i don't think any more surprises are left but imam Sadiq AS has said that it would be mustahab for a girl to get her period in her husbands house. do we even have a bit of independence or is the sole purpose of a woman is to serve a man or follow one, when she's not married she has to follow her father but when he gets married she has to follow her husband, for a husband his parents have full rights over him but for the wife her husband has full rights over her, do women not have feelings or are women not made of the same flesh as men.

i didn't even know about this whole child marriage thing, i did know a bit about girls being allowed to be married at 9 but i brushed it off cuz even bibi fatima had done that and also the fact that olden days were different. this all sounds cruel to me. i watched a video of this christian guy talking about how islam allows the marriage of young girls who cant even think for themselves, for the first time in my life i didnt have any answer despite reading so much about it, how am i gonna defend islam if this is the reality, how am i supposed to answer a non muslim's questions about this topic. i feel frustrated and sad, so please help me out. i dont remember the rest of the stuff but ill say it if i do.

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Marriage can only be done if the following conditions are met

1)if the girl(or boy) are physically ready( capable of reproducing)

2) if the girl/boy are mentally ready to take on the responsibilities if marriage. Islam has the most progressive laws regarding to marriage, instead of just fixing an arbitrary number as age which can be exploited, it makes sure of the person is mentally ready for it too.

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Just now, smma said:

Marriage can only be done if the following conditions are met

1)if the girl(or boy) are physically ready( capable of reproducing)

2) if the girl/boy are mentally ready to take on the responsibilities if marriage. Islam has the most progressive laws regarding to marriage, instead of just fixing an arbitrary number as age which can be exploited, it makes sure of the person is mentally ready for it too.

then why is this allowed by ayatollah khamenei, he said its allowed even with a suckling infant

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1 minute ago, AdinAnikas said:

then why is this allowed by ayatollah khamenei, he said its allowed even with a suckling infant

Idk, but doesn't matter what he says when the rules brought to us on this matter by the prophet are as clear as day

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10 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

how am i supposed to answer a non muslim's questions about this topic. i feel frustrated and sad, so please help me out. i dont remember the rest of the stuff but ill say it if i do.

I wouldn't worry too much about non muslim perceptions. The religious texts are available, anyone who is interested can pick them up and read them. 

We follow the rules of the country we live in, so child marriage is essentially a non issue in most cases.

 

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

I wouldn't worry too much about non muslim perceptions. The religious texts are available, anyone who is interested can pick them up and read them. 

We follow the rules of the country we live in, so child marriage is essentially a non issue in most cases.

 

you guys are brushing it off, he is a well known marja and people are following him , on what basis has he allowed this

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Just now, AdinAnikas said:

you guys are brushing it off, he is a well known marja and people are following him , on what basis has he allowed this

In theory a marriage with a girl who has just started puberty is allowed if she is also mentally ready. But that's just theory, irl its impossible for a child to be ready for that. Khamenei may have been stating the theory not reality

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Just now, Soldiers and Saffron said:

This subject has been discussed several times already and there are several threads on it already...

ive read them and many were defending the marja but i still didnt get the main answer of why this is allowed as it seems like something islam wouldnt do yet its still allowed

 

3 minutes ago, smma said:

In theory a marriage with a girl who has just started puberty is allowed if she is also mentally ready. But that's just theory, irl its impossible for a child to be ready for that. Khamenei may have been stating the theory not reality

i dont think a 4 year old would have gotten puberty or would understand what marriage is

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Just now, AdinAnikas said:

ive read them and many were defending the marja but i still didnt get the main answer of why this is allowed as it seems like something islam wouldnt do yet its still allowed

 

i dont think a 4 year old would have gotten puberty or would understand what marriage is

Idk what people saying that are basing it on. Its literally impossible for an infant to marry. 

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37 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

then why is this allowed by ayatollah khamenei, he said its allowed even with a suckling infant

It is not possible for an infant to become married. Furthermore, there is no reference for the supposed fatwa of Al-Sayyid Khamenei. Even if this supposed fatwa was true, Al-Sayyid Khamenei would mean it in a hypothetical and not literal sense.

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56 minutes ago, smma said:

Marriage can only be done if the following conditions are met

1)if the girl(or boy) are physically ready( capable of reproducing)

2) if the girl/boy are mentally ready to take on the responsibilities if marriage. Islam has the most progressive laws regarding to marriage, instead of just fixing an arbitrary number as age which can be exploited, it makes sure of the person is mentally ready for it too.

These are the rules of marriage don't allow yourself to be put in doubt or disbelieve because of uneducated Muslims or islamophobic propaganda 

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12 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

It is not possible for an infant to become married. Furthermore, there is no reference for the supposed fatwa of Al-Sayyid Khamenei. Even if this supposed fatwa was true, Al-Sayyid Khamenei would mean it in a hypothetical and not literal sense.

why even talk about it at all

3 minutes ago, smma said:

These are the rules of marriage don't allow yourself to be put in doubt or disbelieve because of uneducated Muslims or islamophobic propaganda 

so ur saying ayatollah khamenei is wrong about it, im so confused

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45 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

ive read them and many were defending the marja but i still didnt get the main answer of why this is allowed as it seems like something islam wouldnt do yet its still allowed

I would recommend you to go then to a sheikh/scholar and talk about it in person.

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3 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

why even talk about it at all

so ur saying ayatollah khamenei is wrong about it, im so confused

It is not Ay. Khamenei but Imam Khomeini's fatwa. And he was not the only scholar who said it, unfortunately there were other scholars who said the same. 

Please remember that our scholars are not infallible people. They may make mistakes. 

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This is how it works.

There is no minimum marriage age in Islam. There is a minimum age for consummating marriage. Now, consummating marriage has a specific meaning in the context of Islamic law. There are no specific laws that says that an x age girl can't be married to a y aged man, or vice versa; there are however age limits for actual consummation.

There are theoretical cases where marriage with an infant has it's place. Please note, and I stress again, I just said marriage. Not consummation, or anything near it. If a husband wants to make his sister in law his mahram, for example, he can temporarily marry an infant for a couple of days; the sister in law can become the infant's foster mother through feeding; this way, she becomes his mahram ad infinitum. This is only a theoretical scenario, and I've never seen it done or heard of it.

Now, if a sick minded individual were to do something in that marriage, apparently there are no direct Islamic proofs in Quran or Ahadith to prevent it from happening. There are clear laws and penalties against consummation, yes. However, there are no clear laws for anything less than that. It seems Khomeini, in his unique ijtehad, said that there is no problem with non-consummative acts (I'd recommend reading the original Arabic/Persian; look for the word "Ishkaal"). He is saying it from a very technical, narrow, sharia based interpretation. Considering how big a deal these Iranian marja's make about matam with blades, I would have thought they would have been more responsible with their words in this case; it misrepresents Islam in a much more severe way than zanjeer ever could.

 

 

 

Edited by Sabrejet
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3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

This is how it works.

There is no minimum marriage age in Islam. There is a minimum age for consummating marriage. Now, consummating marriage has a specific meaning in the context of Islamic law. There are no specific laws that says that an x age girl can't be married to a y aged man, or vice versa; there are however age limits for actual consummation.

There are theoretical cases where marriage with an infant has it's place. Please note, and I stress again, I just said marriage. Not consummation, or anything near it. If a husband wants to make his sister in law his mahram, for example, he can temporarily marry an infant for a couple of days; the sister in law can become the infant's foster mother through feeding; this way, she becomes his mahram ad infinitum. This is only a theoretical scenario, and I've never seen it done or heard of it.

Now, if a sick minded individual were to do something in that marriage, apparently there are no direct Islamic proofs in Quran or Ahadith to prevent it from happening. There are clear laws and penalties against consummation, yes. However, there are no clear laws for anything less than that. It seems Khomeini, in his unique ijtehad, said that there is no problem with non-consummative acts (I'd recommend reading the original Arabic/Persian; look for the word "Ishkaal"). He is saying it from a very technical, narrow, sharia based interpretation. Considering how big a deal these Iranian marja's make about matam with blades, I would have thought they would have been more responsible with their words in this case; it misrepresents Islam in a much more severe way than zanjeer ever could.

 

 

 

ok this makes sense but its sad how marjas are ur go to people and yet they say these things and the  fact that theyve studied for so long 

 

3 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I assume on the basis that it isn't forbidden by the Qur'an or by ahadith. 

is this mentioned in the quran?

 

20 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

It is not Ay. Khamenei but Imam Khomeini's fatwa. And he was not the only scholar who said it, unfortunately there were other scholars who said the same. 

Please remember that our scholars are not infallible people. They may make mistakes. 

do u know of what sistani mightve said about this, they may make mistakes but this isnt anything small, any non muslim who would read this could be immediately turned away from islam

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

@AdinAnikas if it's forbidden by islam then bring your proof. If not, then don't expect jurists to start inventing their own shariah just to satisfy youtube critics. 

youtube critics? that was just a point of if i as a shia dont understand how islam allows this and dont know the full answers then how will others, its not like if someone asks me about this, i can go like because islam wishes so and its none of ur business, we like to get our infants married to men and even if they consummate then oh he'll just get a sin cuz you know they were married. i this kind of mentality will bring a lot of people towards islam, lets see. and the fact that none of u know the answers and are just defending this

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Salam brother/sister @AdinAnikas,

Firstly, this “thighing” fatwa has been discussed many times before. I would recommend the below post by brother Abu Hadi and please also read the link I am posting very carefully before you proceed. It is valid within the realm of theory, and is based on the principle that “everything that has not been made impermissible (by the Qur’an and Hadiths), is considered permissible”. This should not shake your faith because (as far as I have read) it is not based on any hadith by our holy Ahlulbayt.

https://exposingtawhidi.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/defence-of-tashayyu-thighing/

 

Regarding child marriages, I am going to be honest, I don’t know why certain rulings exist. Perhaps certain articles by Yaqeen Institute and Jonathan Brown will be helpful:


https://yaqeeninstitute.org/asadullah/understanding-aishas-age-an-interdisciplinary-approach

Remember that those above are sunni views and that we have different views regarding the age of Aisha but this is still relevant to your question of child marriage. It is interesting how Brown says in the video that there are 0 criticisms of the Sunni report in terms of Aisha’s age before 1905 .

It might be a historical thing as well:

Isaac (40) married Rebecca when she was 3 according to the Bible (remember this Bible is not hujja upon us but it may help us understand history):

Quote

 

The following scriptural facts are used to establish Rebekah’s age at her marriage to Isaac.
1. Sarah was 90 when Abraham was 100 (Genesis 17: 17).

2. Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born (Genesis 21: 5).

3. Sarah died at aged 127 (Genesis 23: 1-2).

4. Isaac was 40 when he married Rebekah (Genesis 25: 20). Two further facts are necessary inferences from the above four facts.

5. Sarah was 90 when Isaac was born (conclusion from 1 and 2 above).

6. Isaac was 37 when his mother Sarah died (because 127-90=37).

7.Abraham informed of Rebekah’s birth (Genesis 22: 20-23); and Sarah’s death aged 127 (Genesis 23: 1-2) Abraham informed of Rebekah’s birth when Sarah was 127.

8. Since Isaac was 37 at his mother’s death, he was 37 when Rebekah was born.

9. Since Isaac was 40 when he married Rebekah, Rebekah would be 3 when the marriage took place (because 40-37=3)

from sister F. M.

 

Also see this below video and picture:

https://www.shiatv.net/video/1525519994
F6587353-EFE4-4A4A-BA08-E2CC0B52CE7C.jpeg.5d1a050604eefebf1a17168ec10d62d4.jpeg

I suppose the question we have to ask ourselves is, do the benefits of such marriages outweighs the costs? I mean if the girl or boy do not have a Mahram to support them, and if there are no orphanages (no means of building them either), is it the worst thing? Should we leave our faith over it? Also, we need to realise that under atheism or secularism, there is no objective basis for morality like we have since we believe in Allah. As an atheist, objective morality goes out the window and it is just subjective aesthetics, cutting a chocolate bunny’s head is the same as cutting a human head since it is just a rearrangement of particles. I mean sure, such jurisprudential laws may not support our modern conceptions of morality, and that’s fine! Times have changed, and I think that our scholars should re evaluate some of the positions that they hold.

I’m not sure if this helps.

Wsalam,

313_Waiter

Edited by 313_Waiter
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I think the marriage with children it just means engagement, as nikah is not possible at that age. After the child reaches physical and mental maturity they can give their consent to marry or null the engagement

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Im not sure why others are treating this as a topic of debate or something that isn't clear. A non mahram isn't allowed to touch another woman in any way, and to become a mahram nikah must be done which cant be done until mental maturity is reached (usually 16-18 years of age) to say that 4 year or 9 year olds can be married off is preposterous and insultive to islam.

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4 minutes ago, smma said:

I think the marriage with children it just means engagement, as nikah is not possible at that age. After the child reaches physical and mental maturity they can give their consent to marry or null the engagement

Technically, there is no engagement in islam; there's only nikah.

Two kids can be married in childhood in exceptional cases; case in point, Imam Muhammad Taqi ((عليه السلام)) was married to Mamun's daughter Umm Fadhl when he was 9-11 years old.

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14 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salam brother sister @AdinAnikas,

Firstly, this fatwa has been discussed many times before. I would recommend the below post by brother Abu Hadi and please also read the link I am posting very carefully before you proceed. It is valid within the realm of theory,  and is based on the principle that “everything that has not been made impermissible (by the Qur’an and Hadiths), is considered permissible”. This should not shake your faith because (as far as I have read) it is not based on any hadith by our holy Ahlulbayt.

https://exposingtawhidi.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/defence-of-tashayyu-thighing/

i didnt find this post before but i think it has been explained well, its sad that they cant be straightforward about it and make it haram but what can we do, at least now im not that frustrated about it, sorry for using all ur time, if i had found this post then i wouldnt have started this one and since there are other threads already, if u wanted to delete this post then id be completely fine. thank you 

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11 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

i didnt find this post before but i think it has been explained well, its sad that they cant be straightforward about it and make it haram but what can we do, at least now im not that frustrated about it, sorry for using all ur time, if i had found this post then i wouldnt have started this one and since there are other threads already, if u wanted to delete this post then id be completely fine. thank you 

A lot of people misunderstand the role of a jurist. They don't make things haram and halal, they simply research and document what is and isn't permitted in islam. 

Just because something sounds wrong they cannot immediately label it as haram. 

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16 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

at least now im not that frustrated about it

Alhamdulillah sister/ brother.
 

May Allah bless you and increase your Eemaan.

 

Wsalam
 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

if it's forbidden by islam then bring your proof. If not, then don't expect jurists to start inventing their own shariah just to satisfy youtube critics. 

It’s called common sense, that fact one of the SEXUAL acts are prohibited then rationally all sexual acts are prohibited since each sexual act leads to another.... you get idea, even if someone (I.e a pedo) may argue that he can control himself that’s simply a plain because sooner or later he will loose the plot...  Khomeini is weak when it comes to this field. 

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13 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

It’s called common sense, that fact one of the SEXUAL acts are prohibited then rationally all sexual acts are prohibited since each sexual act leads to another....

Sexual intercourse and other forms of sex have their own ruling. Your conclusion has no basis.

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14 hours ago, smma said:

A non mahram isn't allowed to touch another woman in any way, and to become a mahram nikah must be done which cant be done until mental maturity is reached (usually 16-18 years of age) to say that 4 year or 9 year olds can be married off is preposterous and insultive to islam.

In the ahadith the A'immah have permitted marriage with girls younger than 9 years old. Complete mental maturity is not necessary. However, the boy and girl must consent to the marriage and intend to become married to each other, and someone else (it is better that it is two people) must say the marriage contract on their behalf.

16 hours ago, smma said:

Marriage can only be done if the following conditions are met

1)if the girl(or boy) are physically ready( capable of reproducing)

If the boy and girl are the ones saying the marriage contract then they must be sane and baligh. There is no proof that the girl has to be capable of reproducing in this case. She just has to be minimum 9 years old.

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8 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

It’s called foreplay every sexual act leads to another. 

That may be true but if you were to investigate the Islamic laws regarding sex and marriage you would come to realise that the rulings pertaining to sexual intercourse are more strict in comparison to other forms of sex. 

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