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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why are the Shi'a arguments for wilaya not straightforward?

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2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

.

All of a sudden you switch to Imamah of someone, which isn't even proven yet you demand mutawatir evidence for imamah of the rest of our imams.

You could reject every Imam afterImam Hussein onwards if you want. Your aqeeda would still be that of the Zaidi scholars.

Please go to Zaidiportal.com. and read the section on aqeeda (it's from a classic scholar Imam Hadi) compare that to aqeeda of a classic 12er scholar eg sheikh  Sadooq Compare it to aqeeda by Tahawee (classic Sunni)

Put all 3 books together and see what the aqeeda claimed is and what the proof are. Look at it objectively.

Big claims require big evidence. 

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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23 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Mutawatir is mass transmitted so the path is multi.

With due respect,

In which mutawatir Hadith did you see that Hazrat Zaid (رضي الله عنه) is Imam?

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This actually makes me laugh. The verse of Wilayah plus the 20+ ahadith saying it was revealed for Ali (عليه السلام). I think it seems very straight forward.

Edited by Ansar Shiat Ali
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44 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Mutawatir is mass transmitted so the path is multi. So a book may be authentically attributed to a author eg bukhari (for arguments sake) then individual hadith may have strong and weak chains so the book as a whole is not mutawatir in a sense of each hadith automatically being authentic. But the book itself maybe mass transmitted once it was written that doesn't automatically mean every hadith is.

A mutawatir hadith is mass transmitted to through multiple chains. Zaidi and 12er have strict criteria Sunni criteria varies.

Is their a Muttawatir hadith For the Imamate of Zayd Ibn Ali Al Shaheed (عليه السلام)? Because there is a hadith that says Zayd (عليه السلام) went to Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) to ask permission to rise against Banu Ummaya (la). If Zayd (عليه السلام) was an Imam why did he ask permission from someone who we say is an Imam to rise up against Banu Ummaya?

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24 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

With due respect,

In which mutawatir Hadith did you see that Hazrat Zaid (رضي الله عنه) is Imam?

I'm not sure how many times I need to write this. He is not a point of aqeeda.

Please go to zaidiportal look up section on fundamentals. That's the aqeeda according to Imam Hadi a classic Zaidi scholar.

Compare that to aqeeda by Sheikh Sadooq 

Compare that to sheikh Tahawee (famous Sunni classic scholar.

Let's not make up our own aqeeda when discussing differences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Just now, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Is their a Muttawatir hadith For the Imamate of Zayd Ibn Ali Al Shaheed (عليه السلام)? Because there is a hadith that says Zayd (عليه السلام) went to Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) to ask permission to rise against Banu Ummaya (la). If Zayd (عليه السلام) was an Imam why did he ask permission from someone who we say is an Imam to rise up against Banu Ummaya?

There is a hadith which is the opposite in Zaidi books where he claimed Imamat and refuted those saying they follow Imam Sadiq

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All the arguments in the world against a divinely appointment Imam can't answer for Ayat e Ibtila; there is definitely a station of Imam in the Quran as chosen by God, in the progeny of Ibrahim ((عليه السلام)). There is no verse in the Quran that says that this station was discontinued, like Prophethood was discontinued.

That is of course, unless someone is salafi, and absolutely refuses to believe anything that clashes with his ideology; such a person will have no problem rejecting verses of the Quran without batting an eyelid.

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Okay, here's my scientific analysis of Twelver Shi'ism versus Zaydi Shi'ism schism...in the UK they have what's called 'Pepsi Light'...in the US 'Pepsi Light' is known as 'Diet Pepsi'...on the flip side, we have authentic full-flavored Pepsi Cola with natural cane sugar imported from Mexico (US used to use actual cane sugar before becoming cheap and switching to high fructose corn syrup I think sometime during early 70's)...Zaydism is like watered-down rendition of full-flavored Pepsi (i.e. Diet Pepsi) and when they take a sip of robust flavor (from normal Pepsi) they go into cardiac arrest and we have to call EMS and they have to give Zaydi brethren mouth-to-mouth CPR and use defibrillator in order to resuscitate...you have been sipping on Diet Pepsi for far too long because of Sunni and Mutazili influence

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

a miracle. It can prove itself. Also no need for chains of transmission

Salam Bro,

l avoid applying the word "miracle" to the din because miracle is directly related to magic. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haqq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). the Only Reality. So anything He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does is Real.

That is my first premise. My second is in Quran, Ayat 2:102.

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Salam Bro,

l avoid applying the word "miracle" to the din because miracle is directly related to magic. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haqq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). the Only Reality. So anything He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does is Real.

That is my first premise. My second is in Quran, Ayat 2:102.

That's a good point .

I guess when I use the word miracle I mean it's not created by the direct actions of man nor is it a pretictable natural event within the laws of reality.

As in the example of the slaughtered and cut birds by Nabi Ibrahim  there us no natural phenomenon of pieces of cut birds returning to life nor was it the action of man made intervention. And it's not magic either.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

...you have been sipping on Diet Pepsi for far too long because of Sunni and Mutazili influence

My problem is the other way round I've been drinking full fat pepsi my whole life. Now I realized I need to take care of my health so diet pepsi will do.

Btw what's water ? :grin: as that the healthiest option.

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35 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As in the example of the slaughtered and cut birds by Nabi Ibrahim  there us no natural phenomenon of pieces of cut birds returning to life nor was it the action of man made intervention. And it's not magic either.

What l devised is to designate so called "miracle" events -claimed, fraudulent or very unusual -as outside of normal expectations. Then characterized them according to the circumstances. 

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8 hours ago, hasanhh said:

What l devised is to designate so called "miracle" events -claimed, fraudulent or very unusual -as outside of normal expectations. Then characterized them according to the circumstances. 

Please explain it further in a blog post or new thread. This sounds interesting. 

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11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

 

Btw what's water ? :grin: as that the healthiest option.

Then Twelver shi'a islam would be an infinite ocean and Zaidi islam would be one container of mineral water with an expiration full of artificially inserted minerals to make it look shiny.

Anyway, Zaidi's are not Shi'a. They claim to "respect and follow" the Twelve Imams(عليه السلام) but do not give them their due rights which is following only them. You can claim to follow Imam Ali(عليه السلام) all day but you have rejected Him(عليه السلام) fully when you rejected His later generations. These people only listen to Imams if they are either trying to overthrow governments or starting some sort of rebellion whilst a Shi'a is nothing but a trained dog for his Imam. If his Imam tells the Shi'a to sit, he sits, to stand, He stands. To go and sit in a lit oven, the Shi'a doesn't question and goes to sit in the hot oven because being a Shi'a means giving away your life completely to your Imam which in our case is Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام). This all comes from a hadith of Imam Jafar(عليه السلام) where He(عليه السلام) tells a person claiming to be a Shi'a to sit in the oven but that person becomes scared and questions. The worship and reverance of Zaidi's is similar to the worship of Iblees where they don't go through the proper channel of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because they listen to their own reasoning and desires just like Iblees did.

We should also disassociate ourselves from the elk of zaidi's and waqifi's as these people caused nothing but distress/injury to Imam Ali Reza(عليه السلام). These deviant sects do not even have a present Imam which makes them the same as sunni's essentially where they disobey the Quran which clearly says that every nation shall arise with an Imam. And we have perfect hadith which state every generation should have an Imam. Minority within a minority is utter nonsense.

Wasalam.

Edited by El Cid
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On 1/30/2021 at 5:29 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You could reject every Imam afterImam Hussein onwards if you want. Your aqeeda would still be that of the Zaidi scholars.

Please go to Zaidiportal.com. and read the section on aqeeda (it's from a classic scholar Imam Hadi) compare that to aqeeda of a classic 12er scholar eg sheikh  Sadooq Compare it to aqeeda by Tahawee (classic Sunni)

Put all 3 books together and see what the aqeeda claimed is and what the proof are. Look at it objectively.

Big claims require big evidence. 

Bhai i don't understand how could someone say that.

Zaidi portal isn't Kitab o Sunnah and neither has descended from sky. What difference it would make if i'm going to be a zaidi even if i reject imamah of Zaid (رضي الله عنه) and others how come this proves authenticity of your mazhab? For Gods sake bro.

Its well established from Quran and Allah chooses imams and he did give Nabuwah and Imamah to progeny of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and rejecting any of those would be kufr even as per Quran would that make you trust less on Quran now?

Also verse said only NON-ZALIMEEN will be given this status and none other masoom can be non-zalim.

Point is, all books are filled up with narrations that there will be twelve Imams after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) why don't you go see those?

Then shia books are there with hadiths that tells you about Imams after Imam Hussein (عليه السلام). 

Hadith of two weighty things by Mola Ali (عليه السلام) has words that its for 12 imams.

Idk what proof he wants.

If you consider Zaid (رضي الله عنه) and others fallible, and that rejecting them isn't a big problem, and they aren't imams like First three, then their opinions against imam Sadiq who claimed to be an imam at many places doesn't even matter. It holds no weight its just like some scholar denying imamah of first three imams.

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On 30/01/2021 at 6:31 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

I'm not sure how many times I need to write this. He is not a point of aqeeda.

Please go to zaidiportal look up section on fundamentals. That's the aqeeda according to Imam Hadi a classic Zaidi scholar.

Compare that to aqeeda by Sheikh Sadooq 

Compare that to sheikh Tahawee (famous Sunni classic scholar.

Let's not make up our own aqeeda when discussing differences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry brother. I read this blog but no where I found any thing about Hazrat Zaid but only of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Maybe I missed out things. But what is the position of Hazrat Zaid (رضي الله عنه) in Zaydism and what are the straight forward hadith and wuranic explanations for that.

As of 12ver shiism, Hadith are there but regarding 12 imams you will only find among the shia scholars. That make sense btw. Why would a scholar write something that indicates 12 imams and by belief he would be a non-Shia? 

He is a scholar but also these things will impact his faith as he has to not only quote the truth but even submit to it.

Non shias try to establish there verdict with the question that "where are twelve imams in Quran or non twelver books?"

Why would a non-twelver write it and still remain a non-twelver?

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عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي ع قَالَ أَقْبَلَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع وَ مَعَهُ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع وَ هُوَ مُتَّكِئٌ عَلَى يَدِ سَلْمَانَ فَدَخَلَ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ فَجَلَسَ إِذْ أَقْبَلَ رَجُلٌ حَسَنُ الْهَيْئَةِ وَ اللِّبَاسِ فَسَلَّمَ عَلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَرَدَّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامَ فَجَلَسَ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَسْأَلُكَ عَنْ ثَلَاثِ مَسَائِلَ إِنْ أَخْبَرْتَنِي بِهِنَّ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ الْقَوْمَ رَكِبُوا مِنْ أَمْرِكَ مَا قُضِيَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَنْ لَيْسُوا بِمَأْمُونِينَ فِي دُنْيَاهُمْ وَ آخِرَتِهِمْ وَ إِنْ تَكُنِ الْأُخْرَى عَلِمْتُ أَنَّكَ وَ هُمْ شَرَعٌ سَوَاءٌ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع سَلْنِي عَمَّا بَدَا لَكَ قَالَ أَخْبِرْنِي عَنِ الرَّجُلِ إِذَا نَامَ أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ رُوحُهُ وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يَذْكُرُ وَ يَنْسَى وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يُشْبِهُ وَلَدُهُ الْأَعْمَامَ وَ الْأَخْوَالَ فَالْتَفَتَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع إِلَى الْحَسَنِ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَجِبْهُ قَالَ فَأَجَابَهُ الْحَسَنُ ع فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِذَلِكَ وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّهُ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى الْحَسَنِ ع وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ الْحُسَيْنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ وَصِيُّ أَخِيهِ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ الْحُسَيْنِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ لَا يُكَنَّى وَ لَا يُسَمَّى حَتَّى يَظْهَرَ أَمْرُهُ فَيَمْلَأَهَا عَدْلًا كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْراً وَ السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ رَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَ بَرَكَاتُهُ ثُمَّ قَامَ فَمَضَى فَقَالَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ اتْبَعْهُ فَانْظُرْ أَيْنَ يَقْصِدُ فَخَرَجَ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع فَقَالَ مَا كَانَ إِلَّا أَنْ وَضَعَ رِجْلَهُ خَارِجاً مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ فَمَا دَرَيْتُ أَيْنَ أَخَذَ مِنْ أَرْضِ اللَّهِ فَرَجَعْتُ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَأَعْلَمْتُهُ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَ تَعْرِفُهُ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعْلَمُ قَالَ هُوَ الْخَضِرُ ع 

Aboo Ja`far Al-Thaanee (Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad) said: "Once Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام came with al-Hassan and al-Husayn and he was holding the hand of Salman for support. He entered the sacred Mosque in Makka and sat down. Then a good looking and well dressed man came. He offered the greeting of peace to Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام who answered his greetings likewise and he sat down. He then said, "I will ask you three questions. If you would answer them I will acknowledge that the people who have acted against you in the matters of leadership after the Holy Prophet (s.a) they have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken away peace from them in this world as well in the next life. If it would be otherwise, (you can answer) then you and those people will be the same." Amir al-Mu’minin`Alee عليه السلام said, "Ask whatever you would like." He said, "Tell about the man who sleeps. Where does his spirit go?" Tell about the man, how he remembers and forgets? Tell me about the man how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles?" Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام turned to al-Hassan and said, "O Aboo Muhammad, answer him." The narrator has said that al-Hassan answered his questions. The man then said,

"I testify that there is no lord besides Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that Muhammad صلّى الله عليه وآله is the Messenger of Allah and I continue to testify to this fact I testify that you are the executor of the will of the Messenger of Allah and that you are the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization." He pointed out to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام with his hand. He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact." "I testify that you are the executor of his (Amir al-Mu’minin’s عليه السلام will and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) by His authorization after him (Amir alMu’minin عليه السلام " He pointed out with his hand to al-Hassan عليه السلام. Then He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that al-Husayn ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the executor of the will of his brother and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization after him. 

"I testify in support of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام that he will be the in charge of the task of al-Husayn after him.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that Ja‘far ibn Muhammad عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام.

"I testify that Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Moosa ibn Ja‘far عليه السلام.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Moosa عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Muhammad will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Muhammad عليه السلام after him.

"I testify in support of a man from the children of al-Hassan who will not be mentioned by his Kunya (father or son of so and so) or his name until he will rise with Divine authority to fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice."

I offer you my greeting of peace O Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and praay to Allah to grant you blessings and holiness." He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام said, "O Aboo Muhammad follow him and see where went." Al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام went out to find out (and came back) and said, "As soon as he stepped out of the Mosque I could not figure out in which direction of the earth of Allah did he disappear. I returned to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and informed him." He said, "O Aboo Muhammad, do you know him?" I said, Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام know best." He said, "He was al-Khidr عليه السلام "
Source:

1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 525 – 526, hadeeth #1

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

è Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 6, pg. 203


Here is a breakdown of the sanad (chain of narrators)

Ahmad bin Muhammad Al-Barqee is thiqah (trustworthy) according to:

1.       Ibn Dawood, Rijaal, pg. 40, person # 119

2.      Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 77, person # 182

3.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 53, person # 65

4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 15, person # 7

5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 2, pg. 261, person # 858

Dawood bin Al-Qaasim is thiqah according to:

1.       Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 156, person # 411

2.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 182, person # 277

3.      Al-Toosi, Rijaal, pg. 375, pg. 386, pg. 399

4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 68, person # 3

5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 7, pg. 118, person # 4419

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11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

.

Maybe I missed out things. But what is the position of Hazrat Zaid (رضي الله عنه) in Zaydism and what are the straight forward hadith and wuranic explanations for that.

 

None that's why it's not included in the aqeeda. 

I can further expand on it but this thread is more about straight foward evidence for wilaya, from a fundamental point. Of view that's Imam Ali for zaidi and 12 imams for yourself as a matter of aqeeda.

I'll write a blog about the general concept of imamat and link you to it. Or if you go to the library section there are a few book that can be downloaded and expand on it.

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51 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Bhai i don't understand how could someone say that.

Zaidi portal isn't Kitab o Sunnah and neither has descended from sky. What difference it would make if i'm going to be a zaidi even if i reject imamah of Zaid (رضي الله عنه) and others how come this proves authenticity of your mazhab? For Gods sake bro.

 

I agree about the webisite, but I wanted to give you access translation of an aqeeda book from a classic scholar. Which you can further look into.

it's like downloading creed by sheikh Tusi from islam.org it's not the webisite but the book from a classic scholar that's important to compare our aqeeda. 

Following Aqeeda makes you part of that madhab. Or do you disagree with that statement. ?

Also the rest of the post has many points to cover and involves alot of technical details interpretation of verses and use of hadith we disagree on, hence why it's not straight foward.

But the aqeeda should be straight foward.

So let's agree to disagree I have said my points I can't really add further without going in circles and turning into a endless debate. 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I agree about the webisite, but I wanted to give you access translation of an aqeeda book from a classic scholar. Which you can further look into.

it's like downloading creed by sheikh Tusi from islam.org it's not the webisite but the book from a classic scholar that's important to compare our aqeeda. 

Following Aqeeda makes you part of that madhab. Or do you disagree with that statement. ?

Also the rest of the post has many points to cover and involves alot of technical details interpretation of verses and use of hadith we disagree on, hence why it's not straight foward.

But the aqeeda should be straight foward.

So let's agree to disagree I have said my points I can't really add further without going in circles and turning into a endless debate. 

For twelvers brother, It (Zaydi aqeeda) seems to be quite straight forward. But not for any random man. An athiest, a christian, a jew, a hindu, Someone living on some island etc. When we talk about being straight forward, it should be easily explanable to all. I can explain shiism to anyone in 15 minutes to an extent that they get the idea. But all inside out is not possible. 

Same goes with you, you can explain Zaydi aqeeda in a simple way in 15 minutes. Same for a Sunni and same for every one with respect to his faith.

My point is that no religion in this world is straight forward if you want to understand it complete. No one will put the food on the table. And we are not kids, to expect this.

And rest it's Allah, who is just and will do justice inshallah.

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20 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

.

My point is that no religion in this world is straight forward if you want to understand it complete. No one will put the food on the table. And we are not kids, to expect this.

And rest it's Allah, who is just and will do justice inshallah.

I get you point and agree to a level.

But it's not about explanation it's about evidence.

Eg my religion is about a cat god that rides a rainbow and created the earth from is hair.

Explanation 3 lines a few seconds

Ok proove it ? ........

One of the points we generally address Christians about is  please proove Jesus is the son of god.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

But it's not about explanation it's about evidence.

Evidence is not enough unless explained. Unless proven correct. Which again begs for explanation.

So, again you need to dive deeper. Point is about how straight forward you can be. 

I can explain shiism in few lines. While few books might prove less if I get into explanation.

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Imamate in Divine prophecies:

1. Quranic prophecy: He(Allah) said(to Ibrahima.s.) "Verily I am making you an Imam(leader) for the people", he said "And from my offspring?", He said "My promise shall not include wrongdoers". (Al-Baqarah: 124)

(This necessitates infallibility of Imams)

2. Biblical prophecy: And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold! I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation. (Genesis:17:20)

(This makes the no. of Infallible Imams 12)

3. Sunni hadith: Abdullah ibn Mas'ud asked the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). about his successors, so he replied "Twelve, like the twelve naqibs(representatives) of bani Israil". (Musnad Ahmad)

(This likening makes the 12 Infallible Imams gateways to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).)

Jabir ibn Samurah narrated that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). said "Islam won't cease to be irresistibly powerful till twelve successors, everyone being from Quraysh".... Some Qurashis asked "What will happen after that?", He said "Carnage". (Abu Dawud) Abdul Malik's version has "everyone being from banu Hashim".

(This necessitates the succession of 12 Infallible Qurashi Hashimi Imams to be complete before Islamic countries are overpowered and devastated by the enemies, which began with the crusaders, followed by mongols etc.)

4. Shi'i hadith: Imam Baqir (عليه السلام). said that Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). said "From my children will be twelve representatives, Nujaba(noble) Muhaddathoon(divinely inspired) Mufahhamoon(divinely taught). (Al-Kafi)

(The prophecies by the Shi'i Imams coming about attest to it)

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Lady Fatimah, the Twelve Imams, Imam Mahdi and his occultation indicated in John's apocalyptic vision:

 

Revelation 12:1-5

King James Version
 

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

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42 minutes ago, Zaydi Shiapard said:

With love and respect, above are just a few of the reasons dear brother that led me from Zaydism to Imamism.

Amazing how the human brain works. We both used the same reason but went in the opposite direction.

Inshallah Allah will see our sincerity in trying to follow Ahlulbayt. And forgive any shortcomings.

 

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Guest Guest Guest

Al-Salamu Alaykum

The concluding argument for what the Sayed said can actually be found in one of our hadiths:

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, [b]'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'"[/b] The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.' (33:33)" 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235043713-imamate-in-the-quran/?do=findComment&comment=2997468

 

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On 1/31/2021 at 7:01 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Point is, all books are filled up with narrations that there will be twelve Imams after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) why don't you go see those?

I've seen some Zaydis say that it is a fabricated (mawdhū) Hadith. Beats me exactly how. I mean, when even the most hardcore anti-Shia scholars from the other school, who don't even believe in Imamat, couldn't weaken the Hadith, so much so that in order to reconcile it with their aqīdāh they tried all  sorts of explanations to find the misdāq but failed, dismissing such a universally accepted Hadith by calling it fabricated seems quite amusing to me .

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3 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I've seen some Zaydis say that it is a fabricated (mawdhū) Hadith. Beats me exactly how. I mean, when even the most hardcore anti-Shia scholars from the other school, who don't even believe in Imamat, couldn't weaken the Hadith, so much so that in order to reconcile it with their aqīdāh they tried all  sorts of explanations to find the misdāq but failed, dismissing such a universally accepted Hadith by calling it fabricated seems quite amusing to me .

Zaydi don't have any hadith that refers to appointment of any imam other than first three which are believed to be Masoom and choosen representatives of Allah i:e Imam Ali (عليه السلام) , Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussein (عليه السلام).

After that, they have fallible people from family who claimed imamate. So first they'll need to prove their aqeedah of Imamah. Its same as discussing issue of Imamah with AhleSunnah.

One of zaydis here demanded mutawatir proof for each an every imam. And that doesn't make any sense because zaydis dont even have mutawatir chains for the Book of Allah going back to Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). So it means even Quran becomes doubtful according to them? And how many of their hadiths and books are mutawatir? Thats actually childish to demand mutawatir proof for Imamah of every imam.

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image.thumb.png.4df9c43de4b780a56300dbc5c69ef17d.pngimage.png.8c4d6957127e64fd5af5e6e4cf1ca8a8.png 

Ref: Musnad Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) from Zaidi Portal.

See what Imam (عليه السلام) says. He (عليه السلام) says woe onto him who opposes imams of AhleBait (عليه السلام).

How come opposing a fallible imam be cursed? This narrations proves that opposing Imams of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) is haram and this can only be true if imams are Masoom contrary to Zaidi Aqeedah

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image.thumb.png.60f1c66c053eb630eb80c6995064a8b0.png

Ref: Musnad Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) from Zaidi portal.

again accepting that authority of AhleBait (عليه السلام) is compulsory and only one who accepts it will be in paradise and one who either denies or wrongs them will be in hell fire.

Bhai how come fallible person reach this level? Does it make sense to you? Whoever denies Ahlebait (عليه السلام) will burn in hell and that only valid in case of Ahlebait being Masoom.

Yes you could say Ahlebait are five and they are Masoom. But Above hadith i quoted also proves IMAMS of ahlebait must be masoom. Which denies aqeedah of zaidi that imams need not be be infallible

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On 1/31/2021 at 1:11 PM, El Cid said:

Anyway, Zaidi's are not Shi'a. They claim to "respect and follow" the Twelve Imams(عليه السلام) but do not give them their due rights which is following only them.

Salam they are definitely  shias but they have affected by mistakes & their prayer is valid like us.

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On 1/31/2021 at 4:41 AM, El Cid said:

Zaidi's are not Shi'a.

They (Zaydis) are an extension of ourselves and a legitimate branch of Shi'ism...we (Shi'a) are the ones who give shelter underneath our umbrella and include and do not exclude (except in extreme cases) unlike other schools of thought (i.e. Wahhabism, ISIS etc.) who take pride and relish in excommunication

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:40 PM, Zaydi Shiapard said:

a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The sun is Muhammad, the moon is Ali and the 12 stars are the 12 rightful guides..."The Holy Prophet (S) said that Allah has made the stars as a safety for the creatures of the heaven and made my Progeny as a safety for the creatures of the earth."

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Posted (edited)
On 1/31/2021 at 5:40 PM, Zaydi Shiapard said:

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

A symbolic description of Imam Mahdi (a) and his mother? Mahdi ( a "man-child" who was 5 years old and went into a hidden state under God's direct care or "caught up unto God") will come to rule the world (all nations) with an "iron rod" (Zul-fiqar)?? 

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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